datalogged *works* p2r flash Part II

[PK@WORKS]

This thread was brought to our attention with some surprise as we have been logging the EVO since the Spring of '03 with the Mitsubishi MUT-II and MUT-III factory tools. These are absolutely necessary to develop any Mitsubishi flash. Recently we have tried Evoscan. To set the record straight, let's just say that although it is cheap, it is not always outputting the most reliable data compared to the factory service tools. Nothing beats the MUT-III to date.

The 4G63 engine is a fairly old design and although very robust, it's fairly noisy by todays standards. And getting very inconsistent knock data is very prevalent. The norm is +/-4 but the two runs below were done back-to-back on the road in 3rd gear at WOT at normal operating temperature to show how inconsistent the values can be.

Run 1 Run 2
RPM KnockSum RPM KnockSum
2594 0 2688 0
2688 0 2750 0
2750 0 2813 0
2844 0 2875 1
2938 0 2938 6
3000 0 3000 5
3094 0 3094 5
3219 0 3188 5
3344 0 3250 7
3438 0 3344 9
3531 0 3469 8
3656 0 3563 16
3750 0 3688 16
3875 0 3813 16
4031 0 3938 16
4125 0 4063 15
4219 0 4188 15
4344 0 4281 15
4438 0 4406 15
4563 0 4500 15
4688 0 4625 14
4813 0 4719 14
4938 0 4813 14
5031 0 4938 14
5125 0 5031 14
5219 0 5156 13
5344 0 5281 13
5438 0 5375 13
5563 0 5438 13
5625 0 5531 13
5750 0 5656 13
5844 0 5750 12
5938 0 5844 12
6031 4 5938 12
6156 4 6063 12
6219 4 6156 12
6313 3 6250 11
6438 3 6344 11
6531 3 6438 11
6625 3 6531 11
6750 3 6625 11
6813 2 6719 10
6875 3 6813 10
6969 3 6906 10
7031 3 7000 10
7094 6 7125 10
7188 5 7188 9
7281 5 7250 11
7344 5 7344 11

Now if I were Byran Apex, I would post the latter values because I love WORKS so much. With back-to-back runs which would you believe? That's where a Mitsubishi MUT-III would come in.

The reality is nobody here knows what Mitsubishi Motors knock sum actually is. How is it interpreted? How is it calculated? And what does the ECU do with this information? There are only a handful of people in the world who actually know and WORKS is fortunate to work with one of them because we are an EVO specific professional tuner. Not a random dyno shop or individual.
A knock sum value in EvoScan does not necessarily mean knock is actually occurring nor does "0" mean there is no presence of knock. It is much more complicated than that.Â*

That being said, most tuners and individuals have little understanding or access to the 600+ maps which actually exist in the factory ECU. The "Do-it-yourself" programs only give you access to a few dozen. Those other maps are very crucial in the proper operation of your vehicle and the lack of understanding and knowledge has prevented those programs from giving you access to them. Furthermore some of those published DIY maps are dangerously mislabeled or incorrectly calculated but hey, it was free so you can't hold anybody accountable.

It seems like some issues have resulted from EVOs modded with variety of non-WORKS products which is something we can't control. We are offering integrated solutions for products we engineer. For example how many cam companies offer a proper flash to go with their product? Does HKS or Buddy Club? WORKS does. Think Dinan or AMG.
Here are two examples of off-the-shelf complete WORKS TR-340 and TR-303 packages in 3rd gear at WOT at normal operating temperature:

TR-340 TR-303
RPM KnockSum RPM KnockSum
2500 0 2531 1
2594 0 2594 0
2656 0 2656 0
2750 0 2750 0
2813 0 2813 0
2906 1 2938 0
3000 1 3031 0
3094 1 3156 0
3188 1 3219 0
3344 0 3344 0
3469 0 3469 0
3594 0 3594 0
3750 0 3719 1
3875 0 3844 1
4031 0 3969 1
4188 0 4125 1
4344 0 4250 0
4469 0 4375 0
4625 0 4500 0
4719 0 4625 0
4875 0 4750 0
5031 0 4875 1
5188 0 5031 1
5313 0 5125 1
5500 0 5219 1
5625 0 5344 2
5750 0 5438 1
5906 0 5563 1
6000 0 5688 1
6125 2 5781 1
6281 3 5875 1
6406 3 5969 0
6563 3 6063 0
6656 3 6156 0
6813 2 6281 0
6906 5 6375 0
7000 5 6438 0
7125 5 6531 0
7219 5 6625 0
7313 4 6719 0
7438 4 6813 0
7531 4 6906 0
Â* Â* Â*Â* Â*7000Â* Â*0
Â* Â* Â*Â* Â*7063Â* Â*0
Â*Â* Â* Â* Â*7125Â* Â*0
Â*Â* Â* Â* Â*7219Â* Â*0
Â* Â*Â* Â* Â*7313Â* Â*0
Â* Â*Â* Â*Â* 7375Â* Â*0
Â* Â*Â* Â* Â*7438Â* Â*0

These values are totally acceptable and even lower than many stock EVOs from Mitsubishi.

Please remember that EVO flashes in Europe and Asia typically are $800-$900 and that does NOT include the boost hose assembly.
You get what you pay for (or don't pay for) and we'll be the first to concede that those overseas flashes have more development time (4+ years) than ours and employing long-term software engineers aren't cheap.

*Also, thanks to these threads, there is now evidence of persons and companies in violation of 2006 United States Copyright laws. Enough said for now.

The conclusion is that this is nothing more than a smear campaign encouraged by those with time to spare or those not satisfied with their current job while hiding behind a monitor.

This myth is busted.

As always, we build relationships with our customers and welcome any concerns or questions you may have.

WORKS is the tuner of choice for Mitsubishi Motors employees and flashes the most nationally campaigned race EVOs in the country.

[UCB]

Sweet...lets blame the software and say we have secret hocus pocus magic to unlock the ECU! Despite other tuners using the SAME software, getting much less/0 knock, and putting more power down on the dyno

Yeah, the software is flawed, and so are the dynos too. Im sure the dyno can tell if the car is being logged with evoscan or MUT-III

[earlyapex1]

You want me to cross reference the ign map timing and the logged timing?

Doesn't take a engineer rocket scientist to understand that if the ecu is told to advance ign timing to 14 degrees at 7000 rpm and the log says 7 degrees at 7000rpm, that timing is being PULLED.

Are you going to also debunk OBD2 data or actual knock sums straight from the ECU?

wag the dog.

[UCB]

Oh I assure thats not really happening, there is special hocus pocus going on in the ECU that evoscan cannot see, if you logged it with MUT-III then it would surely be the correct timing advance

The octane flag function is flawed as well, of course

[earlyapex1]

yea, evoscan sucks compared to your MUT tools:


support all Mitsubishi MUT-II(JOBD)/MUT-III and Subaru SSM Protocol and Nissan datalogging protocol Models
Note: Only US DSMs/Eclipse and US EVO8/9 support the universal standard OBDII datalogging tools. For japanese imports, other standard OBDII dataloggers will not work. EvoScan is what you need. EvoScan still works with those US Models, although better and faster than the universal standard OBDII datalogging tools, since the Mitsubishi MUT-II(JOBD) Protocol runs 50% faster than ISO9141-2! Using Bez Acceleration runs 400% faster than ISO9141-2!

wag the dog

[Lurk]

It seems like some issues have resulted from EVOs modded with variety of non-WORKS products which is something we cant control. We are offering integrated solutions for products we engineer. For example how many cam companies offer a proper flash to go with their product? Does HKS or Buddy Club? WORKS does. Think Dinan or AMG.
Here are two examples of off-the-shelf complete WORKS TR-340 and TR-303 packages in 3rd gear at WOT at normal operating temperature:

Right blame it on the parts people are using now. Sounds like familiar stealership rhetoric. There are alot of engine parts manufactures including Cosworth as well that do not offer a flash to go with their product. Whats your point? They are a parts manufacturer, not a tuner. Funny how you compare yourselves to DINAN,as they are the biggests ripoff when it comes to BMW tuning bar none. You guys probably get your Works exhausts made at the same crappy muffler shop down in San Jose that DINAN gets theirs from.

Bottom line is, your tunes are garbage and you have alot of pissed off customers that paid money for something they expected would gain them some power yet run safe at the same time and they got neither one.

[earlyapex1]

This thread was brought to our attention with some surprise as we have been logging the EVO since the Spring of '03 with the Mitsubishi MUT-II and MUT-III factory tools. These are absolutely necessary to develop any Mitsubishi flash. Recently we have tried Evoscan. To set the record straight, let's just say that although it is cheap, it is not always outputting the most reliable data compared to the factory service tools. Nothing beats the MUT-III to date.

Reference my post above. It uses the same protocol.



The reality is nobody here knows what Mitsubishi Motors knock sum actually is. How is it interpreted? How is it calculated?

But the ECU does, and that is exactly what is being logged and what is being used by the ECU to determine changes.



And what does the ECU do with this information?

I know, do you know?



A knock sum value in EvoScan does not necessarily mean knock is actually occurring nor does "0" mean there is no presence of knock. It is much more complicated than that.

The knock sum is from the ECU. It is exactly what the ECU is seeing and using to determine if changes should be made.




That being said, most tuners and individuals have little understanding or access to the 600+ maps which actually exist in the factory ECU. The "Do-it-yourself" programs only give you access to a few dozen.

Is EcuTek considered a "do-it-yourself" program?




You get what you pay for (or don't pay for) and we'll be the first to concede that those overseas flashes have more development time (4+ years) than ours and employing long-term software engineers aren't cheap.

I know what some people are getting for $600.



The conclusion is that this is nothing more than a smear campaign encouraged by those with time to spare or those not satisfied with their current job while hiding behind a monitor.

Smear campaign? I don't charge for my tunes. This isn't about me whatsoever. It's about fellow enthusiasts having a safe running, powerful car which is what they should be getting for their money in the first place.



This myth is busted.

Show me how its busted again?

[earlyapex1]

Now if I were Byran Apex, I would post the latter values because I love WORKS so much. With back-to-back runs which would you believe?

From now on, I will post back to back logs.

I will also update the logs I have posted in the past to reflect this too.

[ST]

awww man, there is so much propoganda and misinformation, i don't even know where to begin..

1st and foremost....care to post the ENTIRE logs w/ coolant temps, octane values, etc. (sans timing of course)?

2nd - there is empirical evidence to show how the operation of the ecu works in relation to knock and timing...there is no secret to this...you knock enough or ping sufficiently and you'll pull timing...'nuff said. and does it coincide with real knock...you bet your jar of works vaseline it does...i've heard it first hand w/ a HKS Pro Knock Amplifier.

3rd - In terms of the thoroughness of ECUFlash and the likes...interesting you mentioned this, since you are the supposed masters of the Evo ECUs, but i havent seen any mention of closed loop modifications, or how about the default lean/rich conditions to which the ecu automatically goes, or care to elaborate on the idiosyncracies in terms timing in relation to load?

4th - AMG type tooners eh? Offering packages where the IDCs are running 115% w/o injector upgrades? Or care to explain wtf u were thinking running 12 AFRs on 91 gas, then having ridiculously high timing trying to compensate for your supposedly "cured" boost taper?

more bon bons please....

[ST]

those are the mystery maps that run only when the car is not being logged or on a dyno


Look! I found one of their mystery maps! (Note their new scaling!)

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g319/stranx44/works.jpg

[ob4]

those are the mystery maps that run only when the car is not being logged or on a dyno


Look! I found one of their mystery maps! (Note their new scaling!)

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g319/stranx44/works.jpg



lol

[JanSolo]

Please stay on topic so I don't have to clean this thread yet again. Thanks for your understanding.

As much as I like babysitting, it does get old. So if you cannot behave yourself (and I know you folks can be civil), then I will take necessary steps. Once again, thanks for understanding.

[UCB]

Works...Please post your octane flag of your "logs"

I really dont see how you can come in here, show a log knocking 5-14times, and say its "ok" and that the SW is flawed

Id really love to see the same car you are logging with a Dyno plot and a wide-band A/F log

until you can provide either, this thread is dead and you completely missed the ball with this "myth busting" thread

[DavidV]

I feel the need to respond to this thread, and the train wreck that was the other thread on this subject.

First of all, my disclaimers.

(1) I do not own an Evo
(2) I did help start WORKS in the early days and was with Pete during the development of the original P1 and P2 flashes
(3) I have no stake in WORKS or any other Evo company

Now... I also own an MR2 that I paid to have tuned by two of the of the most renowned tuners for MR2s back in the day. I bring this up because the attitudes in this thread do not even closely resemble those of my own personal experience or what I have seen in the MR2 community for years now.

The first tune I had on my car was by XS Engineering. It was through the proprietary Power Excel software by the head of XS, Eric Hsu. Not only was I not told what parameters specifically Eric was changing on the car, I was asked to leave the room during the tuning process - all of which took place on a laptop with Kanji characters that I could not have deciphered even if I wanted to. I took no offense. This was understood as the line the seperates tuner and customer.

Further, because the Datalogit had not yet been introduced to the market, the password protected maps were inaccessible to the end user. I could still make adjustments to the maps through the FC Commander, but I could not simply browse the parameters Eric changed and had no desire to do so.

Fast forward a few years....

Bryan "No Shoes" Moore, arguably the best journeyman MR2 tuner on the scene, flew out to San Francisco from Virginia to tune my MR2. By now, I had a Datalogit box that allowed me full access to those portions of the map previously hidden by the Power Excel software. Although Bryan was able to see and alter Eric's orginal maps, and may or may not have agreed with every alteration Eric originally made, there are several things he didn't do:

(1) He didn't slam Eric's tune.

(2) He didn't share with me, or any other customer, Eric's tune of my car, or the tune he came up with for my car.

(3) He certainly didn't post anything up on a message board for others to look at and dissect.

Why?

Well, for one thing, these tuners have a code of honor and professional courtesy. Their tunes are the respective tuner's livelihood. WORKS put countless R&D hours to be the first to reflash the factory Evo 8 ECU. Their extensive R&D over the years in this area is their's and their's alone.

Second, if someone is able to view or alter these tunes, they should develop and market a tune on their own merit without denigrating the work of someone else.

In other words, if I am baker and you ask me to bake you a cake, that's fine. Maybe you like my cake, maybe there is another cake you would like better. But you don't ask me for, demand, or steal my recipes to give to another baker to see if he/she can improve on them. That baker has his/her own way of making a cake and you the consumer get to decide whose cake you like better. That's it.

When it goes beyond that, things get (a) illegal and (b) unethical.

It simply is not the case that I the consumer can feel entitled to alter them, demand alterations, or make threats any more than if I were to buy a copy of Microsoft Windows, hack it, and then demand that code be changed or hire someone to change it for me to suit my preference/whim.

If I want MS Windows. I can buy it and use it. If I don't like it, I can buy something else. If I want more than what MS Windows or a competitor OS can offer, I can go ahead and get an open source OS like Linux and make one myself.

I cannot, however, turn Windows into open source and bitch that the developers didn't make it the way I wanted it - at least without getting sued by Microsoft and having every software engineer in the world hate my guts.

This thread is ripe with misguided feelings of entitlement and hostility towards platform specific tuners, that frankly, would be best served leaving the market if this is the reception that their R&D gets them.

The reason the MR2 community continues to thrive so many years after that car has left the market is, IMO, the community's recognizing, supporting, and encouraging the work of MR2-specific parts suppliers and tuners.

These cool new datalogging/hacking tools and gadgets are a great way to bring a little flexibility into the tuning process for end users, but when it becomes more than that and are being used as they are here, then the line has been crossed.

At the risk of sounding like a jerk, if the Evo scene continues to go this way, best of luck to you all in getting quality products/tuning fpr this platform in a few years time.

-- DavidV :D

[EFIxMR]

I have just completely lost respect for Works.. That has to be one of the most ignorant posts I've ever written..

Yes, there are quite a few maps in the stock Roms, but not 600, I have found about 120 data segments, and a quite a few individual parameters.. I suppose in total every hard-coded value in the Rom can be considered a table, if that was the case then Its possible there are 600 of them.. Are all of them of value? Not really.. Do the open-source guys know what all of them are.. Hell no.. Does works, I'm sure they don't..

The MUT protocol is a standard logging protocol.. The only real difference between the MUT-II and MUT-III tool is one is a handheld and the other is laptop based, the diagnostic protocol itself is not different.. The MUT-III tool just has more features to access the other devices that are capable of adjustment or diagnostics,.

And Evoscan is MOST CERTAINLY the same protocol used by the MUT diagnostic tool.. It was engineered from reading the diagnostic stream FROM one of those tools..

FWIW, The MUT-III is just a refurbished IBM T20 laptop, with a diagnostic MUT/OBD-II Cable module.. Its really nothing special, what is of value is the software, and documentation that comes on the laptop.. But its certainly not doing anything all that unique..

I'd bet money their so-called maps aren't anything more than the same changes anyone with ECUFlash can make, maybe a few additional undocumented maps.. I seriously doubt they have every one of those maps documented if there even are 600..

And if they are, and they are documented.. Then PROVE IT.. Don't just toss it out there but prove to me that you have all of this documented.. prove to EVERYONE that what your doing is any more unique than anyone else.

Are Works products good.. Well yeah, I've always felt that they had good products, but more pricey than I felt was worthwhile..


I didn't see the reverse engineering/copyright thing in that thread, but if they dropped the IP-Bomb, they have to really check themselves first.. Unless the roms they offer are 100% a creation of their own, they are technically breaking the law too..


I really doubt anyone doing reflashes is using tools that are all that different than what we already have available..


FWIW, malibujack and friends have been disassembling (reverse engineering) the stock mitsubishi ecu, and have been developing & offering tools to the EVO community, at this point I personally would trust what he says.

[trinydex]

In other words, if I am baker and you ask me to bake you a cake, that's fine. Maybe you like my cake, maybe there is another cake you would like better. But you don't ask me for, demand, or steal my recipes to give to another baker to see if he/she can improve on them. That baker has his/her own way of making a cake and you the consumer get to decide whose cake you like better. That's it.

When it goes beyond that, things get (a) illegal and (b) unethical.

It simply is not the case that I the consumer can feel entitled to alter them, demand alterations, or make threats any more than if I were to buy a copy of Microsoft Windows, hack it, and then demand that code be changed or hire someone to change it for me.

If I want MS Windows. I can buy it and use it. If I don't like it, I can buy something else. If I want more than what MS Windows or competitor OS can offer, I can go ahead and get an open source OS like Linux.

I cannot, however, turn Windows into open source and bitch that the developers didn't make it the way I wanted it - at least without getting sued by Microsoft and having every software engineer in the world hate my guts.


although i somewhat respect your overall stance davidv, the arguement is certainly weak (at least in example execution) the examples given are not quite relating the picture here. if you're the baker and i buy your cake, and i give it to someone else to put the strawberries on top... and it tastes horrible. that sucks. i have to tell the straberries guy to bake me a new cake cuz the one i got from you... was not so hot. amplify this cake by about $10000 and we're not so pleasant about crappy baking.

if you want windows xp then you get what you pay for, you're right, you can't change it and you can go to open source. however this is only addressing the dispute with ecutek and ecuflash. there's no question that ecuflash is doin' a FINE job. no one wants you to hack ecutek and demand that it be changed. we're in a new tuning age now... an open source one. we're all ok with that.

what we're not ok with is unjustified claims, unjustified workmanship, unjustified fill in the blank.

[ST]

.....the examples given are not quite relating the picture here. if you're the baker and i buy your cake, and i give it to someone else to put the strawberries on top... and it tastes horrible. that sucks. i have to tell the straberries guy to bake me a new cake cuz the one i got from you... was not so hot. amplify this cake by about $10000 and we're not so pleasant about crappy baking.

not to belittle your post triny, but a more appropriate analogy would be if someone bought a cake from a bad baker, and not only did it taste bad (i.e. made no power), but also poisoned you (knocks r' us). Then imagine that baker telling you your taste buds as well as your stomach is screwed up and not normal when you try to tell them that! This is the egotism and bs we are talking about here...

[UCB]

Malibujack just layed some SMACK DOWN!!!

YEEEE

[JanSolo]

FWIW, malibujack and friends have been disassembling (reverse engineering) the stock mitsubishi ecu, and have been developing & offering tools to the EVO community, at this point I personally would trust what he says.


When creative expression is protected by a technological protection measure, the situation becomes even more complex. The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) generally prohibits circumvention of technological protection measures. On its face, since circumvention is generally required for reverse engineering, this prohibition would prevent reverse engineering of those measures that control access to a copyrighted work. The DMCA contains a limited exception to the ban on circumvention, which permits reverse engineering of the technology by specific classes of people for limited purposes [17 USC §1201(f)]. The exception allows reverse engineering of computer programs if the reverse engineer lawfully obtains the program, seeks permission from the copyright owner, only uses the results of their efforts to create an interoperable computer program and does not publish the results. The resulting program must only interoperate with the reverse engineered software, however, and cannot interoperate with the technologically protected content (movie, book, video game, etc.) itself. Under the DMCA, engineers may also develop programs that facilitate reverse engineering for their own use or the use of others if they meet the above test. Reverse engineers must carefully consider their planned work and whether it fits into the exception, because the exception is far too narrow to be useful for many reverse engineering needs.

http://www.chillingeffects.org/reverse/

More info on the DMCA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMCA

Now the question becomes - is there a technological protection measure built into the Mitsu ECU? If so, then what these guys are doing may be construed as illegal. If no technological protection measure is built into the Mitsu ECU, then by all means what they are doing can be considered legit until proven otherwise.

[mygsx]

It seems like some issues have resulted from EVOs modded with variety of non-WORKS products which is something we cant control. We are offering integrated solutions for products we engineer. For example how many cam companies offer a proper flash to go with their product? Does HKS or Buddy Club? WORKS does. Think Dinan or AMG.
Here are two examples of off-the-shelf complete WORKS TR-340 and TR-303 packages in 3rd gear at WOT at normal operating temperature:

Right blame it on the parts people are using now. Sounds like familiar stealership rhetoric. There are alot of engine parts manufactures including Cosworth as well that do not offer a flash to go with their product. Whats your point? They are a parts manufacturer, not a tuner. Funny how you compare yourselves to DINAN,as they are the biggests ripoff when it comes to BMW tuning bar none. You guys probably get your Works exhausts made at the same crappy muffler shop down in San Jose that DINAN gets theirs from.

Bottom line is, your tunes are garbage and you have alot of pissed off customers that paid money for something they expected would gain them some power yet run safe at the same time and they got neither one.

^^^^^+1million
So what issues is my car having as I have non "works" parts on my car. So my previous tunes branded "ecutek" are crap????Just because you offer product integrated flashes doesnt mean your superior to other compananies products out there that have been in the business before you even opened up yor beloved "works" shop! Before you start bagging on other companies products why dont you start correcting the your own "current" problems first.There are tons and I mean tons of us fellow evo owners out there since day one who have been running non-"works" products that are happy with and use without any problems and I'm one of them.
Â*
I think you just opened up a neverending can of worms trying to say other mix and match products don't work well? So if a person lets just say for example wants a basic K&n dropin air filter and a cb hks exhaust and nothing else tuned by evoscan or ecutek or or aem ems orwhatever they fancy whats wrong with those products?More power to them.

Nothing personal but there are other things out the that works just as good if not Better!

-Sorry guys that post on parts and all got me pissed had to put in my 2c!

[Lurk]

Well, for one thing, these tunes have a code of honor and professional courtesy. Their tunes are the respective tuners livelihood. WORKS put countless R&D hours to be the first to reflash the factory ECU. Their extensive R&D over the years is theirs and theirs alone.

First of all, WORKS is definately not the first tuner to reflash the factory Mitsubishi ECU by any stretch of the imagination. So you are wrong there. Mr. Niikura at MINES has been doing ECU reflashing for about 12 years before Works even existed. For all we know, Works could have bought an EVO VII MINES ECU and dissected the program as you call it and cooked up their own little ECU aka Brainflash. Just a theory, but that would explain why the Works 91 octane program would need 100 octane to run properly. Because its from a Japanese ECU that requires high octane gas...

[redvolution]

we're in a new tuning age now... an open source one. we're all ok with that.


It is a fascinating time to be getting into this although it seems not everybody is ok with it ...

If I had a little bit more money and time I'd build my own electric track toy. At track days everybody else would spend $100+ in gas for the day and I would just pay $15 for the electric hookup =)

[UCB]

FWIW, malibujack and friends have been disassembling (reverse engineering) the stock mitsubishi ecu, and have been developing & offering tools to the EVO community, at this point I personally would trust what he says.


When creative expression is protected by a technological protection measure, the situation becomes even more complex. The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) generally prohibits circumvention of technological protection measures. On its face, since circumvention is generally required for reverse engineering, this prohibition would prevent reverse engineering of those measures that control access to a copyrighted work. The DMCA contains a limited exception to the ban on circumvention, which permits reverse engineering of the technology by specific classes of people for limited purposes [17 USC §1201(f)]. The exception allows reverse engineering of computer programs if the reverse engineer lawfully obtains the program, seeks permission from the copyright owner, only uses the results of their efforts to create an interoperable computer program and does not publish the results. The resulting program must only interoperate with the reverse engineered software, however, and cannot interoperate with the technologically protected content (movie, book, video game, etc.) itself. Under the DMCA, engineers may also develop programs that facilitate reverse engineering for their own use or the use of others if they meet the above test. Reverse engineers must carefully consider their planned work and whether it fits into the exception, because the exception is far too narrow to be useful for many reverse engineering needs.

http://www.chillingeffects.org/reverse/

More info on the DMCA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMCA


So either both works and evoscan/ecuflash guys are in the clear, or they are both clearly breaking the law

[JanSolo]

So either both works and evoscan/ecuflash guys are in the clear, or they are both clearly breaking the law


Only if they are reverse engineering an ECU. If they are using a tool, then it may be legit. For example, the recent DRM removal tool for WMA based DRM from PlayForSure music stores (FairUse4WM) may be technically legal to have on your computer, but it was clearly illegal to develop the application and to post to the net because of the aforementioned preventative measures in built by Microsoft.

Is using the tool that was built illegally illegal itself? That is not for me to say. Certainly, creating and distributing it is and people that are hosting have most likely received cease and desist orders. But again, we have not answered if Mitsu built in electronic measure to prevent people from reverse engineering the ECU.

[UCB]

Yeah, I really dont see why they would, it just means more warranties they can void :P

I see PK@works still has not a single thing to refute what has been posted

Octane Flag? Wide-Band readings? Dyno numbers?

[trinydex]

.....the examples given are not quite relating the picture here. if you're the baker and i buy your cake, and i give it to someone else to put the strawberries on top... and it tastes horrible. that sucks. i have to tell the straberries guy to bake me a new cake cuz the one i got from you... was not so hot. amplify this cake by about $10000 and we're not so pleasant about crappy baking.

not to belittle your post triny, but a more appropriate analogy would be if someone bought a cake from a bad baker, and not only did it taste bad (i.e. made no power), but also poisoned you (knocks r' us). Then imagine that baker telling you your taste buds as well as your stomach is screwed up and not normal when you try to tell them that! This is the egotism and bs we are talking about here...

you know what you're absolutely right and no offense taken.

[Black_EVO]

Just my 2 cents;

Ask any parts manufacturer, they will tell you why their product is superior. It's called "sales", they would be stupid not to, it's how they make their living. The same stands for Tuners. I don't recall WORKS saying not to use other products, or not to use another tuner. Of course they will try and convince you to go with them, it's called Free Market Capitalism. Any other tuner would do the same thing, and there is nothing wrong with that as long as it is done with civility. I know this because I asked Jaime these questions prior to my P2, and never once did he say "Not" to go with anther shop.

I have many non-WORKS parts on my car, and when I got my P2, never once did Jaime or Oliver say anything negative. They were very professional, and courteous. Which brings me to my final point.

I think we all need to be civil and professional about this. Each individual is entitled to their opinion, afterall it is a free country. I remember a certain tuner who was banned from this board way back in the day for slamming other tuners. If you feel the need to make snide remarks with ill intent, do it somewhere else. Each tuner has their own technology, strategy, technique and tools. Please respect their differences!!

It is sad to see the EVO community heading in this direction. I have to agree with DavidV (pretty cool guy) on the fact that if we continue down this path it will only lead to harm to the community.

Peace out!!

[UCB]

This has nothing at all to do with trying to infringe on WORKS IP, and has everything to do with a community of enthusiasts being more educated and not biting on the WORKS marketing BS

This is not about the style of their tune, we are not trying to replicate the P2/P2R flash, this is 100% about them selling sub-par unsafe flashes.

When in their court..they say its safe, blaming the software we are using to log (despite it using the identical protocols as theirs), if it puts down poor numbers on the dyno, lets blame it on the dyno

So far the ONLY person who has been defending the WORKS flash, and thats WORKS (big surprise?)

Pretty much every reputable tuner on this board has had a chance to log a works car, found them problamatic, and even after works "fixed it", sending the customer away telling them that their car is knocking but its ok and safe, since stock cars knock?

Unbelievable if you ask me

[evo637]

Just my 2 cents;

Ask any parts manufacturer, they will tell you why their product is superior. It's called "sales", they would be stupid not to, it's how they make their living. The same stands for Tuners. I don't recall WORKS saying not to use other products, or not to use another tuner. Of course they will try and convince you to go with them, it's called Free Market Capitalism. Any other tuner would do the same thing, and there is nothing wrong with that as long as it is done with civility. I know this because I asked Jaime these questions prior to my P2, and never once did he say "Not" to go with anther shop.

I have many non-WORKS parts on my car, and when I got my P2, never once did Jaime or Oliver say anything negative. They were very professional, and courteous. Which brings me to my final point.

I think we all need to be civil and professional about this. Each individual is entitled to their opinion, afterall it is a free country. I remember a certain tuner who was banned from this board way back in the day for slamming other tuners. If you feel the need to make snide remarks with ill intent, do it somewhere else. Each tuner has their own technology, strategy, technique and tools. Please respect their differences!!

It is sad to see the EVO community heading in this direction. I have to agree with DavidV (pretty cool guy) on the fact that if we continue down this path it will only lead to harm to the community.

Peace out!!


Have to agree with you..It's starting to turn out like evom.net

[Evo442]

So far the ONLY person who has been defending the WORKS flash, and thats WORKS (big surprise?)



I've run various iterations of the P2 flash for over 2 years and 15+ track days w/o a problem.Â* the few 3rd gear pulls I've done with evoscan look fine. But, my current flash is kindof a custom tune, designed to run with higher octane, not a generic reflash.

Out of curiosity has anyone blown a motor with a P2 flash (or heard of someone who has?)

[UCB]

Obviously a custom tune SHOULD run better than a generic OTS tune

However, all OTS tunes should have enough margin of error to run safely on ALL cars.

[DavidV]

Out of curiosity has anyone blown a motor with a P2 flash (or heard of someone who has?)



No kidding. Didn't you get the memo? WORKS Evos are blowing up left and right and have been for close to four years now. If WORKS customers didn't keep buying new Evos to replace their blown up cars, WORKS would have had to shut down shop years ago.

-- DavidV :D

[Limeyboy]

Wow, this thread is going to get even bigger tonight.

Every tuner does their thing, every tuner produces different results. Most tuners back their work with a warranty, and there is no denying Works have that warranty as a major selling point. I can't speak for other tuners as I do not know you all... yet ;)

Proving a fault was a problem with a tune? Difficult, but not impossible.

'Nuff said from me. Happy friday and I hope everyone gets laid tonight.

[UCB]

the evo ecu goes into self preservation mode to save the motor, just because there arent tons of stories of motors blowing up, doesnt mean the works flash is stout

How is pulling timing and going to the low octane maps ever a good thing?

[MarkSAE]

FWIW, I've done 12 track days on my evo w/ the P2. I did a compression test last week and my #s were from left to right (cyl 1-4):

192, 182, 190, 197 psi (1,2,3,4).

These #s seem healthy. The deviation in values could be due to carbon build-up in the cylinders. The #2 cyl reads lowest, which is what I've always noticed on my DSMs as well. Mitsu put the knock sensor behind the #2 cylinder for a reason.. it probably runs the leanest.

The thing I like about the P2 is that it retains the factory boost controller. That was the selling point for me. It's comforting knowing I have this safety feature while flogging my car around the track as it will ultimately save my motor if there's too much knock. I've never noticed a drop in power at the track, nor has my ECU ever cut boost due to too much knock.

One can argue that removing the factory boost controller in favor of an MBC is a "flaw" of a tuner's tune as well. To me, removing a vital safety feature such as this is just as dangerous if not more than a bad tune.

[evo637]

The thing I like about the P2 is that it retains the factory boost controller. That was the selling point for me. It's comforting knowing I have this safety feature while flogging my car around the track as it will ultimately save my motor if there's too much knock. I've never noticed a drop in power at the track, nor has my ECU ever cut boost due to too much knock.

One can argue that removing the factory boost controller in favor of an MBC is a "flaw" of a tuner's tune as well. To me, removing a vital safety feature such as this is just as dangerous if not more than a bad tune.



+1 this was the selling point for me as well+customer service. I just don't have enough time to fiddle around with MBC when it gets cold outside. Also dyno tuning is great, but I prefer real world road tuning where environment change all the time. Also have 11 trackdays & had my p2 for almost 2years.. Dyno numbers are great, but its how you use it at the track that really counts.

[UCB]

Ill agree with you on the boost control part..but works isnt the only camp to use ECU control

[dohcvtec]

the evo ecu goes into self preservation mode to save the motor, just because there arent tons of stories of motors blowing up, doesnt mean the works flash is stout

How is pulling timing and going to the low octane maps ever a good thing?

Exactly.

Dynoflash, same story. Bryan and I worked on my Dynoflashed car, sure it ran great for 40,000 miles, but the ecu was pulling timing like crazy. I mean, a monkey can go in there and type 8's all over the place and the ECU will still do what it can to keep the motor alive. Just because a motor didn't blow up, doesn't make it a good tune.

[ST]

Ill agree with you on the boost control part..but works isnt the only camp to use ECU control


Works has no clue on how to properly utilize the factory Boost Control System. I have seen first hand their supposed ECU control. No one with an iota of understanding of the supposed 600 maps (/rolleyes), would utlize it in the fashion they have. It renders the ECU almost useless, with no provisions for any proper boost correction. This is not just opinion or conjecture, but is indeed fact easily proven mind you (with a boost log or account of the Boost settings).

edit: let me elaborate more before Mr. Admin believes I'm just blowing smoke and wants to ban me again.

Their are several settings in the ECU as it relates to the BCS: Boost Desired Load / Turbo Error correction / and Wastegate Duty Cycle. Understanding each nuance of these maps gives you full provisions to control boost properly and have full error correction (think of it as having an integrated electronic boost controller w/ full ECU control at that). Works ECU sets a particularly setting erroneously rendering the ECU boost controls totally useless. If you look into a Works tune specifically, you'll see which setting.

[earlyapex1]

While I was out being a keyboard racer(tm) at Thunderhill today I had some time to reflect on this issue. Yes, driving at the limits of my car let's my mind open a bit more than normal. ;)

I understand DavidV's point of view on bashing. It's actually not very useful because it can get in the way of the real message.

The real reason why myself, and now others are presenting these findings to the community is we believe that fellow enthusiasts should know what they are getting for their money. If they are promised a safe, performing engineered tune, that is what they should get.

If this tune that is touted as safe and performing is actually not really performing all that well, I feel that people should know about it. They can then make up their own mind about what they want to do about it.

My view on WORKS stance on all this is that, although I do realize why they are so defensive, I think they can and should go about solving it in a better way. It's ok to admit faults, much like their brake line snafu, they need to understand this and work upon providing a better product so things like this aren't a possibility.

Hell, the only WORKS employee I have ever met is Kirk, and that was over a year ago. This was as Thunderhill. We got along because we both have the same passion for the same thing, cars. Making them faster, driving them faster and thinking up new cool toys for them. All the WORKS guys could be good people, much like I think Kirk really is.

Letting a problem spotted tune come back into their hands, dismiss it as false, still safe, claim they made improvements on it and send the customer on their way with the same possibly unsafe tune just doesn't lead me to believe that they really care about their end product.

It's one thing to say your product is great and better then every other in your sigs, online, print ads, brochures, etc.. but it's another thing for the product to speak greatness itself.

That all said...
I'm done with the bashing. I realized today its energy sapping, it's counter-productive and it just makes the real message hard to come out from inbetween all the noise.

[ReSin]

Well said EA...

Dennis

[PK@WORKS]

Yes, well said.

This is intended for the silent majority who deserves proper information.

1. The current DIY logging tools available are trying to copy the factory Mitsubishi diagnostic tools. If you have access to both, the choice is simple.
The fact of the matter is, they are not the same. Examples include inaccurate Fuel Trim, Air Volume values, and response time. When you have the experience to use the two tools side-by-side, you will know what we mean.
If we didn't have access to a Mitsubishi MUT, we would be using these less expensive copy cats as well.

2. The memory portion that most people have access to in a US EVO ECU is either 256,000 bytes or 512,000 bytes. Technically it only takes 1 byte to define a map so potentially there are 256,000 or 512,000 maps. Most maps have headers and are several to scores bytes long. We wrote a program to automatically extract all of the maps back in 2003 and we can tell you there are way more than 600. We deem most of those not very useful but we definitely know and understand more maps than anyone in the industry. Some of these maps are very useful and detrimental.
In addtion, there are other on-board chips that nobody we know of has access to.

3. WORKS maps are very safe. Dozens of people are continuing to send us their logs or bring their cars by and they log great. Of course there are a couple of exceptions (not our products) but these will be resolved when they come in for their appointment (see below*).
The whole air/fuel myth is nothing more than dynos being configured with improper load values. When we log these same cars on the street and at the track, the air/fuels come out perfect. But this topic is for a whole other discussion. The bottom line is hundreds of our customers total thousands of track days (one gentleman has 65+) with standard off-the-shelf WORKS flashes including our own EVOs. We should also mention the WORKS racing flashes for a top ten National SCCA Touring 2 EVO and the '06 NASA US Touring Car championship EVO.

4.*The "problem spotted tune" was reflashed once and never checked. The customer wouldn't let us take his car out because his girlfriend was getting antsy and wanted to leave. He made an appointment to come back which isn't until after Thanksgiving. Therefore we haven't had a chance to resolve it properly. BTW, his car is equipped with a wide variety of parts which aren't WORKS which also makes it more challenging.

5. We have been informed that a couple of people attacking us (not Byran) are not disclosing their affiliation with our competition. These business practices are unethical and only bring down the EVO community as a whole.

6. Making cars go fast is how we choose to make our livelihood. We are passionate car enthusiasts and engineer them safely and effectively with the best tools possible. And believe me, we are not doing this for the money. In fact we are the type of persons who would give WORKS products away to all EVO enthusiasts if we could afford to. Thank you for all the support over the years with many more to come. Drive well.

[UCB]

While that was a well thought out and worded reponse PK, it was still 100% fluff

A bunch of marketing and fluff, NO FACTS. Basically you fluffed up your first reponse and put a bunch of numbers next to each one.

You can sit here and blame dyno calibration constants and blame the software, but why is it when other cars (non-works), are thrown on the SAME dyno on the SAME day and logged with the SAME software, then why arent all of them knocking, pulling timing, going to the low octane map, and running dangerously lean? Some of them were, some of them weren't. If your maps arent designed to work with any other components besides works ones, THEN STOP SELLING THEM ALONE.

Is it really only the works maps that are incapable of being properly monitored and logged by the tools availible to 95% of the community? And only the tools YOU guys have can prove YOUR maps to be safe? While you say they are safe, with knock counts from 0-10, there are plenty of other tuners that push out maps that have 0 knock counts across the entire rev range, while still puting down great numbers on the dyno

If you guys stand so much behind your product and can say they are 100% safe with absolute conviction, then why not have another dyno day? Have 30 cars with various tunes/mods show up at a neutral location, have those cars logged with evo scan and your MUT tools, then post ALL of the findings?

EarlyApex-He is an individual, he is not from a certain camp, if anything he bashes all equally
Myself-I am an individual, I am not from any camp, I only cause a stink when I see problems

So for you to sit here and dispel ALL the problems that your maps have (that NUMEROUS tuners have seen), and blame it on outside factors, then to have the audacity to question the business practices of others....well thats truly disgusting.

[ST]

Since it seems everyone is now having their moments of "enlightenment", i wanted to add more constructive feedback to these discussions. Although I am by no means the originator of this supposed Works "bashing", having only had first hand experiences recently, I think the Dyno Day here really brought about attention to folks on the subject of tunes in general. I first posted in this thread http://www.norcalevo.net/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=2&topic=13521.30 about the knocksums attained via logging from a certain person who shall still remain anonymous on his particular tune. I chose not to cite the source specifically, but wanted to curtail the resounding disinformation prevalent on that topic (note that even other tuner flashes were questioned too). Â* This brought about a manifestation of inquiries to folks about their own tunes which would later propogate into its own little monster of a thread, but more on that later.

Fast forward a couple of days later, when a candid discussion on some new Evo IX cams dynod were laid to question, which was completely valid given its origins and lack of consistency. In there, I had a simple little rant to share my frustrations w/ not only these cams, but some others that were just hitting the market (see http://www.norcalevo.net/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=2&topic=13674.15) since spending $600 for cams and another $200 for labor for inconclusive results wasn't an appealing option to me. I guess Works took exception to this rant, because afterwards 2 or 3 of their guys showed up on the thread and started insulting my intelligence (is this the internet or we not allowed to voice our opinions and feelings?). Yes I went off on them afterwards because frankly, I was tired of their egotistical attitude ( from Works: "I’m telling you, if it wasn’t for the boards in general, the aftermarket EVO world would be much less entertaining.") and their admittance (or lack thereof) of the issues with their products. In hindsight, I could have been much more objectionable without the extracurricular sarcasm, which could be interpreted as specific attack / bashing, but I was just having as much fun adopting the same superiority complex (as I said, just an old Supra Forum habit); touche!

While there is justifiable concern about Works products, what really distresses me the most is the attitude adopted in the rebuttals. Again, it started out as insults back at us, their supposed customers, and has gone onto to strange propoganda and more marketing spins on things. Look, I am an old school guy, who himself has raced a bit on the track (albeit on bikes), and am an engineer at heart to boot. There is no need to throw smoke and mirrors at customers or start having an accusatory tone with folks who have valid concerns. Why not answer things directly and informatively instead of just pumping your chest and having your guys go online left and right to bash back more (have the admins paid attention to that?). You start losing even more credibility and respect in the process. As I said repeatedly many times, I am glad Works is working with these unsatisfied customers first hand, and time will tell first hand how much they stand behind their products!

With these statements in mind, it is NOT my intention to bash a specific vendor (seen how messy it can be first hand), but rather assist folks in understanding the nuances of their cars. While I am a bit more direct than others in some of the messages, I do have conclusive evidence to backup any claims i have thereof. After some of the more informative posts, it is really cool to see folks now talk about Knocksums, IDCs and BCS as common Evo vernacular! These new tools and tunes are really bringing power back to the masses (see the subsequent posts from customers) and forces Tuners to really distinguish themselves.

[malibujack]

Okay,Â* I *HAD* to register just to reply to the last post by Works..

If you think that there are 256000 or 512000 bytes of JUST DATA,Â* then its 100% clear that you know NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the ECU and how it work..

The rom is the operating code of the ECU,Â* it contains both INSTRUCTIONS AND DATA,Â* many of the data segments and tables are easily identifiable since they have reference information that makes it stand out.. Many more of the items are embedded within the assembly code as individual constants..

There is **NO POSSIBLE WAY** that the rom is composed entirely of data,Â* Well, let me rephrase that, the entire rom contains data, but its not All maps and tables.

This alone has completely destroyed any credibility you have whatsoever, as its now clear you do not have any knowledge of the system your supposedly an expert at.

Your point about the trims, well, thats partially correct, the data was not incorrect, it was how the Evoscan programmer has decided he wanted to display them.Â* In Mitsulogger, I chose to scale them identical to the MUT tool and OBD-II...

The MUT diagnostic tool contains features that allow you PASSTHROUGH ACCESS to other devices according to the diagnostic specifications,Â* to do that, you do a slow init, select the ECU you want to access, and then exchange data..Â* Yes, we don't have all the info for all of the modules available.Â* However, the only ones useful for diagnostic data or programming are the ACD, ABS, Immobilizer, etc.. Only, their in no way linked to the stock ECU other than through the DLC and some handshake data (Immobilizer start for example)

Yes, there are some internal components that can be accessed and read by the MUT that third party tools cannot do yet..

But your talking about the logging tools, using the standard RequestID conversations.. GUESS WHAT???Â* ITS NO DIFFERENT, in fact, the logging capabilities of the tools some of the enthusiasts have written are far superior to the MUT tool..Â* Â*

There are a few RequestID's we have not isolated yet, there are a few items that may have initially been scaled incorrectly..

But your portrayal of the tool being inadequate or inferior is absolutely FALSE..Â* The diagnostic protocol is still reading the same data, at the same baud rate,Â* sample speeds are the same if not faster than the MUT tool.

Using the standard MUT protocol, each request is answered with a response of 2 bytes,Â* the first byte is the echo, the second is the data..Â* ONE BYTE,Â* therefore the value of the data will be limited... How many values can you get for RPM from 0-9000 if the byte response is 0-254??Â*

Not only that, but most of these most critical values you brag about, are clipped at values that the Stock car might hit rarely, but a modified car will frequently exceed..Â* Therefore relying only on the MUT tool is also NOT ADEQUATE for tuning..Â* The MAF Airflow value clips at around 1609hz and the 1C (Load) clips at 160

Yes, we don't have all of the requestID's for every function, especially the values for actuators and solenoids, and status flags, but their not as critical for logging as for diagnostics.

Now, In works defense I'm guessing that the people figuring this stuff out, aren't the same as the person posting on this thread.Â* So he might not have all the data needed to completely state his case..Â* So in all fairness, its entirely possible they have this all figured out..

But, prior to 6 months ago or so, the only tools available were Techtom and ECUTek, and the MUT-II and MUT-III,Â* Neither program really offered any insight into how things work, it just presented you with an interface where you were left to make changes yourself..Â* Adding more maps was the result of finding the data and adding references to it..Â* And Extracting the rom (until a year ago) was thought to be only possible through a JTAG or Piggyback interface off the Flash chip.. I can't say anything more about the ECUTek tools because I know nothing about it (I don't know if it had been able to read a rom)

[malibujack]

I just wanted to add that My posts are not to attack their tunes or products, I have no issue with them, or the products.. Just that the way they have chosen to address the community with misinformation bothered me enough to post.

BTW, I also wrote a script to find the headers of every single map.. And there are NOT 600 of them.. Also many of those maps are unused, reserved, depricated, Axis data, or duplicates.. The process of finding static data within the assembly code is much more difficult, typically those are 1 byte or 1 word values that have no header info, there could potentially be several hundred of those.

1/2 of the rom is code
1/4 is mostly data
roughly 1/4 of the rom's free space is unused

[PK@WORKS]

I said "potentially."

I am not the WORKS software engineer. Just a tuner. Our SE never posts on forums.

BTW, thank you for the kind words. Especially since we went way out of our way to help you years back as a WORKS customer.Â*

We have to get ready for our meet now. The Skyline and Noble need attention.

[DavidV]

Since it seems everyone is now having their moments of "enlightenment", i wanted to add more constructive feedback to these discussions.

Great. Let's start with your affiliation with EIP. You've now linked to two threads promoting them. You also reference extensive work on customer Evos and have apparently invested your time, energy and money into some scanning tools and used them on other people's cars. You are not an Evo owner looking to fix up his own car, you are not a journalist do research for an article, nor are you a concerned WORKS customer, so what is your pecuniary interest in all of this?

While you fill us all in on that, let's hear a little about EIP's background. Are they a new company, fresh out of nowhere? I don't think so. I recall them having a bit of history in the VW scene. Tell us about it. Tell us about their reliability track record there. Start with the VR6 turbo kits. We're all interested in some background.*

Once we have all of this info, don't you think this conversation will be a whole lot more useful and less one-sided bashing?


While there is justifiable concern about Works products, what really distresses me the most is the attitude adopted in the rebuttals.

Let's start with the justifiable concern part. You would think after a combined 20+ pages of ranting, you or someone would have come forward with a bit more than an inconclusive hunch? Where are the hundreds of blown motors that should have been the logical result over the years?

Better yet, if I were a tuner and I saw some troubling diagnostic data as you claim to have seen, where was the follow-up? I mean, if you are claiming that the knock levels indicate pre-ignition/detonation, why didn't you look into it?

You could easily have pulled spark plugs and taken pics for us to look at. Did you?

That would have been a great way to see how the car is running.

Shoot, why not go full out and pull the head on one of these cars. I would expect to see badly scored pistons and/or ringlands.*

Let's see it.

Also, because WORKS flashes are - precisely as you accuse - not customized to individual cars, but relatively cookie-cutter tunes, there should not be isolated problems with one or two cars that but many hundreds or thousands of them since 2003.

Where are they all?

How can you justify this level of involvement in these threads without doing something as simple as factually supporting your hunch that there is in fact anything wrong with the cars you claim to be unsafe based on dynos and dataloggers?

No offense, but these scare tactics are irresponsible and reckless. Causing community panic is the equivalent of yelling "fire" in a crowded movie theater - and when you have buddies or business partners at the movie theater across the street, it is easy to see why you might do it. I know you'll jump back in and claim to be robin hood, looking out for the little guy out of the goodness of your heart, but excuse me if your actions don't match up with how you paint your motivation in these threads.

The great thing about America is that you have the power to build a better mouse trap* - so do us all a favor and go off quietly and do it .

Once you have done that, please come back and tell us all - without bashing anyone else - why we should buy your mousetrap and why you think its better. Otherwise, let's end this now. Please.


Look, I am an old school guy, who himself has raced a bit on the track (albeit on bikes), and am an engineer at heart to boot.

I could say I'm a certified public accountant or neurosurgeon at heart, but it doesn't make me one, now does it? I can also say I have raced a bit, but so what, who hasn't?

I think this is where credentials matter. You are calling out not engineers at heart, but actual degreed engineers who haven't raced "a bit" but make their livelihood racing in events like USTCC, Time Attack, and others. If you are going to play the "I know better" game, you'll really need to get a lot more serious and conclusive in the info you bring to the table.


There is no need to throw smoke and mirrors at customers or start having an accusatory tone...

"Hello pot, this is kettle..."*


Why not answer things directly and informatively instead of just pumping your chest...

Please follow your own advice.


"...it is really cool to see folks now talk about Knocksums, IDCs and BCS as common Evo vernacular!


Sure.... just like it would be really cool for Evo owners to do their own cat scans, blood work, write themselves prescriptions when they feel like they might have a cold coming on. A little information in the wrong hands is a dangerous thing.

The tools themselves are cool. I use them myself. But I use them responsibly, and I understand their limitations.

Listen, I speak from some experience here too. I had a huge freak out when I started logging knock readings on my Power FC and saw peak knock numbers in the 50s and 60s (on a scale of 100!). I was convinced my motor was imminently going to grenade.

Then, NoShoes did a little exercise with me. Instead of looking at peak knock values, he simply had me change gears and look at the knock numbers at every gear change. Sure enough, the knock was non-existent until I went to grab the next gear, and viola!, catastrophic knock (or so said the FC Commander).

Once I realized how a knock sensor works - it listens for any noise in a frequency range - and that a twin plate clutch does a pretty nifty job of making the FC think it is seeing knock, I realized my tune was 100% safe.

Of course, if he wanted to panic me, he could have said Eric's tune was dangerous, my car was going to blow up, and that the knock values were meaningful.

Instead, he calmed me down, explained pre-ignition/detonation and the relative sophistication (or lack thereof) of the knock scaling, and to this day I have a nicely running car.

and with that, [/rant]

-- DavidV :D

[malibujack]

I said "potentially."

I am not the WORKS software engineer. Just a tuner. Our SE never posts on forums.

BTW, thank you for the kind words. Especially since we went way out of our way to help you years back as a WORKS customer.

We have to get ready for our meet now. The Skyline and Noble need attention.


Although I'm not a customer, I do respect the work you guys have done early on with R&D, I never could afford the prices for the parts.

[DavidV]

Now, In works defense I'm guessing that the people figuring this stuff out, aren't the same as the person posting on this thread.

Right. So who is it and what is the relationship to the person(s) posting in this thread?

-- DavidV :D

[malibujack]

I think he said the software engineer doesn't post on the forums..

[DavidV]

I think he said the software engineer doesn't post on the forums..


Software engineer for whom?

-- DavidV :D

[malibujack]

Sorry, the SE who has been doing stuff with Works according to PK@Works

[Evo442]

ironically, the software that PK@works is knocking has actually given me more confidence in the safety of my Works tune.

Its unfortunate that people are so eager to find fault with Works. Makes it harder for guys like me to make objective decisions about what route to take with their evo's.

That being said, if you are Works and you claim that you are the best, its only human nature for people to want to take you down a notch.

[chrisw]

So either both works and evoscan/ecuflash guys are in the clear, or they are both clearly breaking the law


Only if they are reverse engineering an ECU. If they are using a tool, then it may be legit. For example, the recent DRM removal tool for WMA based DRM from PlayForSure music stores (FairUse4WM) may be technically legal to have on your computer, but it was clearly illegal to develop the application and to post to the net because of the aforementioned preventative measures in built by Microsoft.

Is using the tool that was built illegally illegal itself? That is not for me to say. Certainly, creating and distributing it is and people that are hosting have most likely received cease and desist orders. But again, we have not answered if Mitsu built in electronic measure to prevent people from reverse engineering the ECU.


I have been following these efforts closely. From what I understand (as a software engineer) there are well supported tools publicly available to do this. The ECU ROM is easily read and disassembled. From there its a giant puzzle to be solved. The grey area is the MUT protocols used to flash the ECU. Depending on how you look at it, reverse engineering the protocol could be viewed as illegal. But that is a weak argument since the OBD-II protocol is very similar.

[malibujack]

FWIW the MUT Protocol itself has already been documented (many of the requestID's) years ago by the open source project that was creating a logger tool for the earlier DSM's on a Palm I think. And DSMLink has had a derivative rom on those earlier ECU's for quite some time.

[Matz]

Great. Let's start with your affiliation with EIP. You've now linked to two threads promoting them. You also reference extensive work on customer Evos and have apparently invested your time, energy and money into some scanning tools and used them on other people's cars. You are not an Evo owner looking to fix up his own car, you are not a journalist do research for an article, nor are you a concerned WORKS customer, so what is your pecuniary interest in all of this?


I was wondering when someone was going to bring this up.

[trinydex]

this thread is getting stupid because in the end what's being discussed is not the flashing which apparently is the headlight of the op and the title of the thread.

fact is no one is addressing work's marketing approach to factual claims being made by REAL software engineers doin' REAL software engineering.

this is what i see. works wants to get a pat on the back for spending the 5 grand early on in the evo modding timescale of life.

they might suck at tuning.

the public has better ish now and there are many people out there that wish to support a grassroots effort for tuning.

works could probably care less.

works banner wavers will continue

works has yet to prove anything to me personally and this is where i laff heartily. where's the engineering? where's the production? if these are the people who devote their lives to making cars fast and driving them fast... please. where is the proof in my pudding? i've said elsewhere that many of the works products are just rebadged opp (other people's products) sold for an enormous markup. they don't have a mandrel bender. they don't have an iron foundry, i don't even know if they work with a local one closely... i have a hunch the one they work with is in australia. where's the engineering????? if they're the original disaassemblers of the code, if they aCTUALLY have software engineers where has the continuous developement been??????????? in the short 6 months that there has been a community effort to produce awesome software for which the people who tune evos use has existed there have bee HUGE LEAPS made to incorperate BASIC useful functions. wideband control, full map tracing etc etc etc. all tehse things in developement.

works... where you at?

and that being the case... why do you even get a say?

so i'll conclude since we're actually talkin' about works' bidness practices which some agree with and stand by and others like me will scoff at.

[earlyapex1]

While you fill us all in on that, let's hear a little about EIP's background. Are they a new company, fresh out of nowhere? I don't think so. I recall them having a bit of history in the VW scene. Tell us about it. Tell us about their reliability track record there. Start with the VR6 turbo kits. We're all interested in some background.�



Sorry, couldn't let this one pass. The EIP that is in the VW scene and make the VR6 turbo kits are based in Maryland and have been around since 1993:

http://www.eiptuning.com

Same name, different company as far as I know. (I had a bunch of their parts on my VW)

[ST]

Great. Let's start with your affiliation with EIP. You've now linked to two threads promoting them. You also reference extensive work on customer Evos and have apparently invested your time, energy and money into some scanning tools and used them on other people's cars. You are not an Evo owner looking to fix up his own car, you are not a journalist do research for an article, nor are you a concerned WORKS customer, so what is your pecuniary interest in all of this?

While you fill us all in on that, let's hear a little about EIP's background. Are they a new company, fresh out of nowhere? I don't think so. I recall them having a bit of history in the VW scene. Tell us about it. Tell us about their reliability track record there. Start with the VR6 turbo kits. We're all interested in some background.�

Once we have all of this info, don't you think this conversation will be a whole lot more useful and less one-sided bashing?

lol, I made it clear a while ago, my viewpoints are my own and not associated with ANY shops. Yes, I am sponsored by EIP, so what. I have no business affiliations with them, I am their customer, first and formemost lol, as they have tuned my personal Evo (something you don't even have). YOu want to know more about me and my vested interests? How about the 30 folks in San Jose part of the Wednesday Crew aka the Firm. How about some of your customers are my acquaintances and friends. How about the fact I actually own an Evo (http://www.norcalevo.net/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=2&topic=13885.0)that is still being worked on to this day. Oh btw> Its EIP Racing and not EIP TUning, lol....might want to go back and research there more bud.


Better yet, if I were a tuner and I saw some troubling diagnostic data as you claim to have seen, where was the follow-up? I mean, if you are claiming that the knock levels indicate pre-ignition/detonation, why didn't you look into it? You could easily have pulled spark plugs and taken pics for us to look at. Did you? That would have been a great way to see how the car is running. Shoot, why not go full out and pull the head on one of these cars. I would expect to see badly scored pistons and/or ringlands.�

So your arguement that since the engine isn't blown, Works tunes are fine, eh? NO worry about knock counts, timing retards, spighetti noodle boost controls or the like. Very interseting...but if you want me to do a full blow article on Works tune, I have no qualms on it. I can dissect their overly lean AFRs, their unfathomable timing, their improper use of the boost maps, i can go on and on. Should I?



How can you justify this level of involvement in these threads without doing something as simple as factually supporting your hunch that there is in fact anything wrong with the cars you claim to be unsafe based on dynos and dataloggers?

No offense, but these scare tactics are irresponsible and reckless. Causing community panic is the equivalent of yelling "fire" in a crowded movie theater - and when you have buddies or business partners at the movie theater across the street, it is easy to see why you might do it. I know you'll jump back in and claim to be robin hood, looking out for the little guy out of the goodness of your heart, but excuse me if your actions don't match up with how you paint your motivation in these threads. And what prey tell is your motiivation? You don't even own an evo, but are good friends with Works. I wonder if you are truly unbiased?! /rolleyes


I think this is where credentials matter. You are calling out not engineers at heart, but actual degreed engineers who haven't raced "a bit" but make their livelihood racing in events like USTCC, Time Attack, and others. If you are going to play the "I know better" game, you'll really need to get a lot more serious and conclusive in the info you bring to the table. Look for a Works dissection of their Tune coming to a theatre near you soon! :p


Sure.... just like it would be really cool for Evo owners to do their own cat scans, blood work, write themselves prescriptions when they feel like they might have a cold coming on. A little information in the wrong hands is a dangerous thing. The tools themselves are cool. I use them myself. But I use them responsibly, and I understand their limitations. You used evoscan and ecuflash? And don't even own an Evo..interesting.


Once I realized how a knock sensor works - it listens for any noise in a frequency range - and that a twin plate clutch does a pretty nifty job of making the FC think it is seeing knock, I realized my tune was 100% safe. You might want to ask your buddies what knock does on an Evo does lol....once you get a clue, then we can partake in any discussion.

It is interesting that people who don't even know the first thing about Evos are now going into this thread. These are precisely the kind of attacks I talk about from the Work camp. Not one logical refutable fact to support their rebttals, but more and more personal attacks on their part to try to discredit others. Its interesting as I just wrote up my "truce" thread, even more blatant BS is introduced. /sigh

Evo IX Owner,
ST

[earlyapex1]

Ok since some people are throwing out the "no motors blown how can it not be safe" cards lets look at this in a slightly different view.

Specific amount of knock sums retard timing. That is a 100% fact. No matter what tool you are using to log or tune the car, if the car has a specific amount of knock sums, the ecu will retard timing.

What does this mean? It means it's not running it's target timing as specified in the ignition map from whoevers fingers clacked on the keys to set it.

This means the car is not performing correctly to the set ign map(s) it has been tuned with. If the car hits the specified ign map numbers 1 pull, then the next 3 pulls, has knock sums that do not allow it to hit those ign map numbers, it is under performing from what it is specified to be. This is 100% fact and has been documented thousands of times.

This is what tuning is about. Nobody is perfect, nobody drives their cars in a bubble that has the exact same road grade percentage, the exact same ambient temp, the exact same octane rating every single time. The art of tuning is to realize this, and create a tune that is repeatable in 90%+ of the conditions the car and driver will be in. A couple knock sums every other pull is fine, knock sums that are high enough to pull almost half the amount of timing in any given RPM range is causing the car to not perform to its best abilities.

To have the car pull that amount of timing every once and awhile is a possiblity and is probably acceptable. Who knows what was going on at that moment, could be 10 laps into a race, 6 pulls on the highway racing a supra, 10 miles into a canyon run, etc etc.

To have documented information on tunes on certain cars that pull that amount every pull, every other pull, etc is 100% fact and should not be ignored, and has been shown here for the greater good.

Lets drop the whole safe or not crap and get back to the information presented here. Car A dynos 280whp one pull, 260whp the next pull and 253.3whp the next pull, Car B dynos 284whp one pull, 280whp the next pull and 282whp the next pull, what does that say about them?

[ST]

^ ....this is unrefutable fact; knocksums can and will pull timing. Look at the Works log below and look at where timing is pulled (note : another tell-tale sign is the octane count):




RPM TPS Â* Â* Â* Â* KnockSum TimingÂ* Â* Â* OctaneFlag

4281.25 99.60784314 1 7 100
4437.5 99.60784314 1 5 100
4562.5 99.60784314 1 5 100
4718.75 99.60784314 2 6 100
4843.75 99.60784314 2 6 100
4968.75 99.60784314 9 5 100
5093.75 99.60784314 9 5 100
5218.75 99.60784314 9 4 99.60784314
5343.75 99.60784314 8 3 99.60784314
5468.75 99.60784314 8 3 99.60784314
5593.75 99.60784314 8 4 99.60784314
5718.75 99.60784314 8 5 99.21568627
5843.75 99.60784314 10 6 99.21568627
5968.75 99.60784314 10 7 99.21568627
6093.75 99.60784314 10 7 98.82352941
6218.75 99.60784314 10 7 98.82352941
6312.5 99.60784314 17 6 98.82352941
6406.25 99.60784314 16 6 98.43137255
6531.25 99.60784314 16 6 98.43137255
6656.25 99.60784314 16 8 98.43137255
6750 99.60784314 16 8 98.43137255
6875 99.60784314 15 9 98.03921569
6968.75 99.60784314 20 8 98.03921569
7062.5 99.60784314 20 8 98.03921569
7125 99.60784314 20 8 97.64705882
7218.75 99.60784314 20 9 97.64705882
7343.75 99.60784314 19 10 97.64705882
7437.5 99.60784314 27 7 97.64705882
7500 99.60784314 27 7 97.25490196
7562.5 99.60784314 27 7 97.25490196
7656.25 99.60784314 26 8 97.25490196
7562.5 20.78431373 18 31 97.25490196


For those who don't understand the nuances of knock in relation to Evos, heres a quick blurb I wrote up on another thread:


knock = pinging = detonation = preignition = bad

are all knock bad? yes and no. stock evo ecu has some very complex calculations on whether a knock is considered bad or not. an algorithm is maintained where there is 2 maps, high octane and low octane map, with an octane count (which starts at 100% and decrements) to interpolate between those two maps. the considered formula for the ecu to determine that octane count is based on these values:

0-3=increment
4-5=no change
6+=decrement

this octane increment/decrement rating is not exercised until sufficient load is placed on the vehicle. furthermore, even 1 single knock can retard timing, regardless of the octane count, contingent on the harmonics of it (due to the knock filter). There are also various other scenarios which can cause timing to retard even without knock...

so in laymans terms, base timing is contingent on your octane rating, but the ecu can still pull timing regardless

[DavidV]

lol, I made it clear a while ago, my viewpoints are my own and not associated with ANY shops. Yes, I am sponsored by EIP, so what. I have no business affiliations with them, I am their customer, first and formemost lol, as they have tuned my personal Evo (something you don't even have).

You know what, my car has been sponsored by half a dozen different businesses and manufacturers over the years and not once did I go out of my way to rip apart their as you are attempting here. Why would anyone do this just because a shop sponsored their car or sold them parts? It seems odd to me that you think sponsorship is appropriate motivation. Excuse me if your claims of being a loyal consumer and sponsored car owner sound like a stretch after reading these threads. In fact, I would go so far as to say that if I sponsored someone who ripped on competing vendors on a public forum, I would drop them immediately for hurting the image of my business.


How about some of your customers are my acquaintances and friends.

I don't have customers.


How about the fact I actually own an Evo

Great. Were you at the WORKS Evo meet today? If not, why not? Why wouldn't you want to hang out with your fellow Evo owners? Does it really matter so much to you who you buy your parts from? As a matter of fact, wouldn't that have been the logical place for you to go to get to talk to the people at WORKS and share your concerns with them?


Oh btw> Its EIP Racing and not EIP TUning, lol....might want to go back and research there more bud.

I'm here to learn. Tell me more about them and your relationship to them.


So your arguement that since the engine isn't blown, Works tunes are fine, eh? NO worry about knock counts, timing retards, spighetti noodle boost controls or the like. Very interseting...but if you want me to do a full blow article on Works tune, I have no qualms on it. I can dissect their overly lean AFRs, their unfathomable timing, their improper use of the boost maps, i can go on and on. Should I?

Yes. You should have. But that didn't stop you, did it? And it still isn't. You wouldn't do something as simple as pulling a set of spark plugs, but you will spend hours on here trying to try to freak out every WORKS customer you can reach from behind your keyboard.



And what prey tell is your motiivation? You don't even own an evo, but are good friends with Works. I wonder if you are truly unbiased?! /rolleyes

Most people on here know that I helped start WORKS years ago. I put my own time, energy, and dedication into getting that business off the ground and I am proud of it and open about it.


You used evoscan and ecuflash? And don't even own an Evo..interesting.

No. Actually, I use a Datalogit on my MR2. But that is neither here nor there since I don't own an Evo and don't have a horse in this race. However, it makes sense to me that the Mitsubishi MUT tool - the factory service tool the dealer techs use to diagnose problems - is probably a sufficiently accurate (and expensive) tool for Evo flash development. Why would WORKS spend the big bucks on this if they didn't feel it would ultimately provide the best results for their customers? I can't intelligently comment on how the other alternatives measure up, but the WORKS using the MUT tool for many years now is nothing to sneeze at.



It is interesting that people who don't even know the first thing about Evos are now going into this thread. These are precisely the kind of attacks I talk about rom the Work camp.

I don't need to know anything about Evos to call people out on their integrity and question their practices when you make it as easy as you have in these two threads.


Its interesting as I just wrote up my "truce" thread, even more blatant BS is introduced. /sigh

That was your truce? It sure didn't read like one.

-- DavidV :D

[ST]

You know what, my car has been sponsored by half a dozen different businesses and manufacturers over the years and not once did I go out of my way to rip apart their competitors apart as you are attempting here. Why would anyone do this just because a shop sponsored their car or sold them parts? It seems odd to me that you think sponsorship is appropriate motivation. Excuse me if your claims of being a loyal consumer and sponsored car owner sound like a stretch after reading these threads.Â*
And your point? As i pointed out, i had no ill will towards WOrks until their egotistical attidue w/ customers got into the dialogue. Only then did I adopt the same superiority complex, albeit with real articulated facts instead of half-assed bs conjectured from friends and the like.


Great. Were you at the WORKS Evo meet today? If not, why not? Why wouldn't you want to hang out with your fellow Evo owners? Does it really matter so much to you who you buy your parts from? As a matter of fact, wouldn't that have been the logical place for you to go to get to talk to the people at WORKS and share your concerns with them? No I was busy sleeping trying to fend of a 16 hour jet lag descrepency. What pray tell does that have to do with anything? I have no issues with folks buying parts from anyone, but I do have issues with people talking out of their arses trying to pull marketing scams / bs for others. And about talking to your Work boys, there are many posts where i talked about specifically my concerns with their tunes, and do you know their response: who cares? who are you? etc., How about you ask your buds the same question: shouldn't they PM me instead of trying to diss myself or EA? Wouldn't that make more logical sense?


I'm here to learn. Tell me more about them and your relationship to them. MIght want to actually purchase an Evo first, lol. But, since you wanted to know, back about 3-4 months ago, I purchased my Evo and being a mod freak I am surveyed the market. Works was very prominently displayed with their marketing, but I was fortunate enough to talk to some folks from another shop who showed me their work first hand (in a racing car no less). Being a little appalled I sought out a shop to help me with a tune. My first choice was another shop but unfortunately they didnt have their flashes available yet. I turned to EIP to have my tune and made some good power, however I started also on my own crusade to learn more about EVOs. This showed me some of the errors in my tune, and you know what? Instead of BSing me, they actually went back and took care of everything. That showed me how responsible they are and from then on, I wanted to really explore how far I could push my Evo, with EIP being the tuner. Beyond this, I have helped in their dyno day, just datalogging stuff for folks and have worked to take that info learned from my car to help help others. For me, coming back from the Techtom SUpra TT days, the full data logging and flashing capabilities on the EVO has brung much power to us, where its not just a plug and prey affair anymore.


Better yet, if I were a tuner and I saw some troubling diagnostic data as you claim to have seen, where was the follow-up? I mean, if you are claiming that the knock levels indicate pre-ignition/detonation, why didn't you look into it? You could easily have pulled spark plugs and taken pics for us to look at. Did you? That would have been a great way to see how the car is running. Shoot, why not go full out and pull the head on one of these cars. I would expect to see badly scored pistons and/or ringlands. Are you kidding me still? Do you refute the logs above? IS your eyes blinded by the Works vaseline? Are you for real?


Most people on here know that I helped start WORKS years ago. I put my own time, energy, and dedication into getting that business off the ground and I am proud of it and open about it.
thanks...that all we needed to know!


No. Actually, I use a Datalogit on my MR2. But that is neither here nor there since I don't own an Evo and don't have a horse in this race. However, it makes sense to me that the Mitsubishi MUT tool - the factory service tool the dealer techs use to diagnose problems - is probably a more accurate (and expensive) tool than some of the other choices you listed. Got proof or are you talking out of your arse spoonfed by Works blather?


That was your truce? It sure didn't read like one. judging by your statistics staying in the offtopic forums, you dont read a lot here do you?

more logs to come ;)

[AreSTG]

RPM TPS Â* Â* Â* Â*KnockSum Timing Â* Â* Â*OctaneFlag

4281.25 99.60784314 1 7 100
4437.5 99.60784314 1 5 100
4562.5 99.60784314 1 5 100
4718.75 99.60784314 2 6 100
4843.75 99.60784314 2 6 100
4968.75 99.60784314 9 5 100
5093.75 99.60784314 9 5 100
5218.75 99.60784314 9 4 99.60784314
5343.75 99.60784314 8 3 99.60784314
5468.75 99.60784314 8 3 99.60784314
5593.75 99.60784314 8 4 99.60784314
5718.75 99.60784314 8 5 99.21568627
5843.75 99.60784314 10 6 99.21568627
5968.75 99.60784314 10 7 99.21568627
6093.75 99.60784314 10 7 98.82352941
6218.75 99.60784314 10 7 98.82352941
6312.5 99.60784314 17 6 98.82352941
6406.25 99.60784314 16 6 98.43137255
6531.25 99.60784314 16 6 98.43137255
6656.25 99.60784314 16 8 98.43137255
6750 99.60784314 16 8 98.43137255
6875 99.60784314 15 9 98.03921569
6968.75 99.60784314 20 8 98.03921569
7062.5 99.60784314 20 8 98.03921569
7125 99.60784314 20 8 97.64705882
7218.75 99.60784314 20 9 97.64705882
7343.75 99.60784314 19 10 97.64705882
7437.5 99.60784314 27 7 97.64705882
7500 99.60784314 27 7 97.25490196
7562.5 99.60784314 27 7 97.25490196
7656.25 99.60784314 26 8 97.25490196
7562.5 20.78431373 18 31 97.25490196





whats with the TPS on that? and even more weird to me is how when the octane drops, it is identicle to the Â*TPS reading. Â*Please explain for me cuz apparently i'm finding out again how much less i know and understand when i saw that ;)

[earlyapex1]

AreSTG -

Some cars log as 100% TPS at WOT, some cars slightly less. It's odd but it's how it is. I've seen this variance for over 7yrs with many different loggers.

Look again at the OCTANE reading, it is not the same as the TPS. EDIT: now I do see it being the same at first. That is odd, perhaps just conicidence.

[AreSTG]

5218.75 99.60784314 9 4 99.60784314
5343.75 99.60784314 8 3 99.60784314
5468.75 99.60784314 8 3 99.60784314
5593.75 99.60784314 8 4 99.60784314

^^^
am i nuts? lol?

[AreSTG]

ninja edit ftw ;)

[ST]

remember this is all digital...so it can be the same bit for some instance....

[AreSTG]

check this out....

the amount the TPS is off by is 0.39215686. Â* giving you 99.60784314.

when the octane flag drops again it's by the same amount (actually 0.00000001 off, but maybe it's rounding).

i checked halfway through the log, and it drops the octane flag the same amount each time(the amount being = to the amount the TPS is off).


any reason for this?

[ST]

check this out....

the amount the TPS is off by is 0.39215686.Â* Â*giving you 99.60784314.

when the octane flag drops again it's by the same amount (actually 0.00000001 off, but maybe it's rounding).


i checked halfway through the log, and it drops the octane flag the same amount each time(the amount being = to the amount the TPS is off).


any reason for this?


easily explainable...evoscan function for those request id, 100x/255 the bit read back to show as % based....identical on both cases. i.e. both are 256 bit function reads....that is interpreted back as percentage based.

[AreSTG]

sweet i love learning

[Matz]

EDIT: now I do see it being the same at first. That is odd, perhaps just conicidence.


It's not weird or a coincidence, actually. Computers can only represent floating point numbers with finite precision, so that's what's going on here.

[Matz]

easily explainable...evoscan function for those request id, 100x/255 the bit read back to show as % based....identical on both cases. i.e. both are 256 bit function reads....that is interpreted back as percentage based.


That is a much better explanation than mine... more specific to evoscan.

[ST]

hmm a little birdie friend of mine just gave me some very intersting information on a certain David Vespremi aka DavidV of Boosted Communication Group (http://www.boostedgroup.com/WhoisBG.htm). Now get a load of this blurb:

http://www.boostedgroup.com/MessageBoards.htm



Your customer base is online, are you? [/b]At Boosted Group we understand that companies live or die by word of mouth on the Internet.[/b] Whether you’re a one-man shop or a multinational company, chances are, if you have an automotive tuning product or service on the market today, people are talking about you all over the world. Don’t let them talk behind your back and don’t suffer the effects of misinformation. Let Boosted Group represent you in the global dialogue that takes place online every minute of every day. We will:


> Work with our client to help identify target demographic groups online for generating grass roots interest. __________________________________________________ ___________

> Monitor and participate in appropriate message boards and web forums in a non-adversarial, non-sales oriented capacity, to disseminate accurate information about our clients’ product or service.
__________________________________________________ ___________

> Channel appropriate inquiries to our client’s sales and tech departments.
__________________________________________________ ___________

> Identify product or service “boosters� within the Internet community for possible dealer follow-ups.

It goes without saying that word of mouth is the most valuable sales tool. People tend to gloss over advertisements and sales pitches and follow the advice of established peers in their community. When that community is online, and the authority figures are on web boards and message forums, word of mouth (both good and bad) spreads like wildfire. It’s not enough to post haphazardly to various boards in an effort to field questions or promote product. One has to spend countless hours establishing credibility within the community, consistently responding in the right tone, and always being mindful of identifying key players in the online world to help educate internet savvy consumers. Boosted Group has the experience, credibility and judgment to diplomatically evangelize your product or service in a transparent and effective manner in the complicated online world of message boards and web forums. Let us focus on what we do best so that you can focus on what you do best - offer a great product or service that we can tell the world about!


Deliverables :
> Consistent monitoring and posting on internet message boards and web forums
> Identifying key online players for dealer follow-ups
> Online “handle� and/or avatar for company direct postings

*All fees and Boosted Group services per fiscal quarter.


VIRAL MARKETING AT ITS FINEST FOLKS!

*Edited to remove emotional comment.

[EVO GRIM]

we understand that companies live or die by word of mouth on the Internet. Whether you’re a one-man shop or a multinational company, chances are, if you have an automotive tuning product or service on the market today, people are talking about you all over the world. Don’t let them talk behind your back and don’t suffer the effects of misinformation.

[wzcx]

Wow, nice find ST. I have to say, it did seem like you are pretty closely affiliated with EIP- but when you make your relationship clear, it's all good. I didn't see Mr. Marketing saying anything about that while accusing you of being part of 'a competitor'.

[UCB]

Yeah, ST is a paying EIP customer, he just spends so much damn time on their dyno you'd think he works there 8)

[JanSolo]

If you are wondering where your post went, take solace in the fact that I deleted it. You can send me a hate filled pm if you'd like to vent and you can even bitch about your mom, boss or significant other who is not treating you fairly. I can be your sympathetic shoulder to cry on.

In the future, especially on these threads, doing the equivalent of a mindless & valueless "+1" type response will end up in a deleted post. It's not hard for me to do - I just click a button and your post magically goes away and my internet penis gets massive. But, I do get annoyed after a while and then I contemplate such things as the infamous 1 week time out (it's like having to sit in the corner when you misbehave when you were a wee little lad) or locking threads and the like.

Therefore, please attempt to utilize some rudimentary brain functions and contribute. TIA!

[nebolic]

okay so now I'm stepping in.

You want to talk about affiliations... hmm let me remind the whole NCE community when ST and I was arguing on the other thread "cosworth cams/ EIP dyno day" I explicity asked him numerous times, when he spoke of plural "US" who did he refer too...

Not once did he mention any shop?Â* But conveniently enough now after being called out for affiliation he discloses he is with EIP???Â* Uhhh yah very convenient, and straight after he calls out DavidV.

First of all, please PROVE to everyone that WORKS hired DavidV to defend them.Â* Better yet, I let the last thread go because some members were complaining (actually just one) said I was being too controlling.Â* Nope, I am not, actually what I'm trying to do is stop all this bullshit and people turning NCE into a EvoM.

I have been objective about the argument but yet it always boil down to a stupid fact that one shop is calling out another.Â* This is going to stop right now.Â* No more warnings, you shit on my boards NCE and I will ban your ass.Â*

Feel free to bitch and moan, cause I don't give a rat's ass.Â* I've had enough of people mud slinging everywhere and straight talking shit.Â*

UCB again, like I said before, PLEASE PROVE TO ME that DavidV is a hired gun.Â* If you don't have any proof, then please retract your bullshit statement.Â*

NCE was built for the community:Â* that being said and said many times, Jan and I have left the boards go very "relaxed" and been hands off.Â* With the recent influx of trash talkers signing up, NCE has been a mess.Â* And I am ACTIVELY monitoring EVERY thread.Â*

I don't need to threaten to BAN, and it does not hurt my feelings when others tell me "I was an admin once" well apparently your shit didn't work out cause your not an admin of the boards anymore and just try to give me shit about "threatening to ban".Â* Â*

Right no hidden agenda... please, how does someone bash another vendor and now recently discloses he is affiliated with another vendor come up with "NO HIDDEN AGENDA".Â* And again, I ask you do not speak in plural.Â* If you are talking for yourself then please say I and not "US".Â* This puts you as the hired gun for EIP since now YOU explicity said you are affiliated with EIP and with every posts you say "our tune" or "US" which translates to you representing EIP and basically what you are saying is what EIP would say.Â* Thus we are now going into the Arena of unethical business practice.Â* Hmm.. a vendor bad mouthing another vendor?????

You want to get into more arguing with me, feel free to do so.Â* Your last retort on my reply of your threads "blah blah if that is a comeback it's pathetic" I am game.Â* You really have no idea who you are talking to and who you are dealing with.

I have reminded everyone time and time again to be objective in their posts.Â* I have yet to see it.

Nebo
NorCalEvo Admin

[Matz]

:shock:

EDIT -- Ok, the :shock: was in response to ST's and UCB's posts, which apparently disappeared into the ether.

[UCB]

I agree with you Nebo, there is no way for us to prove davidV was dispatched by works, but even if he was, im sure an NDA was in effect for him to never ever disclose that he was, as that would be a pretty unethical practice

Does it not raise a single eye brow though, that some non-evo owning person, who has been relatively unactive for 3 years, now shows up to defend works, with no info, data, or facts to back it up? If you read his reponses, he has nothing objective or fact based to say, and is merely offering ST some rebuttal. Has he personally seen a works tune logged and dynoed? I think not...

As for ST and his connection with EIP...as an outsider who knows both ST and Paul@EIP, ST does not work for EIP at all, when he was helping out people remotely with tunes from China, he wasnt there on EIP business, but there on his own business, I've met him in his work clothes and company badge, so again, I assure you he does not work for EIP

Is he a loyal EIP customer? Yes
Is he a evo enthusiast striding to educate the community?Yes

Do these two things have anything to do with each other? No, not at all. He EIP connections have nothing at all to do with this thread, while EIP does his tuning, he also is there all the time logging and tweaking his car, ON HIS OWN. A true enthusiast who is truely interesting in the car itself, and not so much the business and marketing side of tuning shops

And through out this thread, he has never said tried to make this EIP vs works, he is simply trying to get works to back their claims with some FACTUAL DATA, instead of marketing fluff

I am only striding to do the same, its a shame that a shop, who's so widely known in the Evo world, to come here on this board, make these malicious claims that basically sum up to US (as a community of educated users or logging and reflashing tools) being babbling baboons and only they are the ones to "Crack" the evo ecu and properly tune it and log it with their factory tools.

Again, I have nothing against works, I could care less who buys from them or not, I just want to see them back up their claims with hardcore evidence, instead of this smoke and mirrors marketing campaign that we are seeing now, and have seen for years

Im not trying to smear works, im not trying to bring down their customer base, im not trying to do anything on that side, I'm just trying to get some FACTS and TRUTHFUL anwsers to back up all of the claims PK has posted

Not once has he responded to me regarding why his logs wont show actual timing vs timing advance, IDCs, and Octane flag, as those are all indicators that the car is knocking (thus to dispel their claim that evoscan cannot accurately log knocksums)

[Matz]

I also don't think ST is an employee of EIP, but I think he could be more than a loyal customer. In the thread (that got deleted) posted by wzcx that turned into a shit-on-EIP fest, ST certainly had Paul's back. That was a pretty interesting read. I also figure he's the one posting on NCE for EIP, because the recent posts were not written by Paul.

Whether ST is affiliated with EIP or not is besides the point -- I think people reading this thread just want to get some facts. I personally am now very interested in the supposed differences between the MUT tool and EvoScan / Tactrix combination, and would love to see some back to back to back to back dyno pulls with logs from both tools. If both camps think they're right, then there shouldn't be any reason to hesitate in conducting a simple, objective test. Right?

[trinydex]

uhm... why was my post deleted? did i ask bad questions? did i say something attacking? neither... just begging the question, what should works be proud of? but i guess that's got nothing to do with the subject at hand... even tho that appears to be the subject at hand.

as for it being one shop calling out another... how is that so when there are several people in here who are unaffiliated speaking up?

objective.... why then can i not talk about how they have questionable claims? i'm asking for objective proof.... was that wrong?

objective... how has works and advocates been objective? this thread was over on the first page.

[nebolic]

I agree with you Nebo, there is no way for us to prove davidV was dispatched by works, but even if he was, im sure an NDA was in effect for him to never ever disclose that he was, as that would be a pretty unethical practice

Does it not raise a single eye brow though, that some non-evo owning person, who has been relatively unactive for 3 years, now shows up to defend works, with no info, data, or facts to back it up? If you read his reponses, he has nothing objective or fact based to say, and is merely offering ST some rebuttal. Has he personally seen a works tune logged and dynoed? I think not...

As for ST and his connection with EIP...as an outsider who knows both ST and Paul@EIP, ST does not work for EIP at all, when he was helping out people remotely with tunes from China, he wasnt there on EIP business, but there on his own business, I've met him in his work clothes and company badge, so again, I assure you he does not work for EIP

Is he a loyal EIP customer? Yes
Is he a evo enthusiast striding to educate the community?Yes

Do these two things have anything to do with each other? No, not at all. He EIP connections have nothing at all to do with this thread, while EIP does his tuning, he also is there all the time logging and tweaking his car, ON HIS OWN. A true enthusiast who is truely interesting in the car itself, and not so much the business and marketing side of tuning shops

And through out this thread, he has never said tried to make this EIP vs works, he is simply trying to get works to back their claims with some FACTUAL DATA, instead of marketing fluff

I am only striding to do the same, its a shame that a shop, who's so widely known in the Evo world, to come here on this board, make these malicious claims that basically sum up to US (as a community of educated users or logging and reflashing tools) being babbling baboons and only they are the ones to "Crack" the evo ecu and properly tune it and log it with their factory tools.

Again, I have nothing against works, I could care less who buys from them or not, I just want to see them back up their claims with hardcore evidence, instead of this smoke and mirrors marketing campaign that we are seeing now, and have seen for years

Im not trying to smear works, im not trying to bring down their customer base, im not trying to do anything on that side, I'm just trying to get some FACTS and TRUTHFUL anwsers to back up all of the claims PK has posted

Not once has he responded to me regarding why his logs wont show actual timing vs timing advance, IDCs, and Octane flag, as those are all indicators that the car is knocking (thus to dispel their claim that evoscan cannot accurately log knocksums)







How about this, if you are bitching there are no numbers, good number for pre and post dyno on cosworth cams. here is my suggestion.
1. Go bitch to Cosworth
2. Go bitch to every vendor in California, even better every vendor in the United States and bitch to every single one of them that they suck balls cause they dont have pre and post dyno sheets.
3. Go buy your own set of Cosworth cams, make your own dyno sheet and post to the Evo community on your findings.
done and done....we're talking to cosworth directly at sema to help the consumers on here, i.e., norcalevo.net instead of just talking out of our asses.






If you are that fucking good, please open up your OWN shop, do your OWN engineering and sell the shit that you make. done and done, look for it coming out soon! ;)



sorry I do not see this as just a loyal customer... he explicity said (see above) selling his own stuff, own shop. Seems to be more than a loyal customer relationship? Business Partner?

nebo

[UCB]

I personally am now very interested in the supposed differences between the MUT tool and EvoScan / Tactrix combination, and would love to see some back to back to back to back dyno pulls with logs from both tools. If both camps think they're right, then there shouldn't be any reason to hesitate in conducting a simple, objective test. Right?


I cannot agree more!

Like I said, all bashing aside, IM HERE FOR THE INFORMATION. I want to see works back up all their claims and PROVE not only to me, but to the entire community that their flashes are indeed safe and making the power they are advertised to

I really want to see them step up to the plate and put their money where their mouth is. This is the internet, talk is cheap

[MAB1025]

Hi. "+1" replies are really useless. If you didn't see already, I am deleting these posts since they well, ADD NOTHING TO THE DAMN THREAD.

Thanks, friend.

[UCB]

Ok Nebo...while thats great info, it still does not disprove any of the concerns or points I brought up

What does ST intending to open his own shop in the far future or working with cosworth have anything to do with this?

Still doesn't have anything to do with my stance and what I want to see from works

Still doesn't answer that they came in here, made a bunch of BS claims, and have yet to back them up

Still doesn't answer why they dont post the IDCs, Octane flag, and at least blurbs of the actual vs logged timing map

I WANT ANSWERS, I could really care less about how much business works does or if ST is affiliated with EIP

If PK is not a software engineer, and doesnt full understand the full spectrum of whats going on in the ECU, THEN HE SHOULD NOT BE POSTING ANYTHING unless fully backing it up by actual data from the works software engineers

Again, I'll I ask for is ANSWERS and data to back all of the claims PK posted in the first post....

[UCB]

I want to see the SAME info from the spiffy MUTIII tool, its completely astonishing that they can just come in here and write off evoscan, without posting complete logs from BOTH tools back to back

[Matz]

I want to see the SAME info from the spiffy MUTIII tool, its completely astonishing that they can just come in here and write off evoscan, without posting complete logs from BOTH tools back to back


I think everyone has made their point. Time to chill on the subject and see what happens next. ;)

[UCB]

agreed

im chill 8)

[DavidV]

Wow, nice find ST. I have to say, it did seem like you are pretty closely affiliated with EIP- but when you make your relationship clear, it's all good. I didn't see Mr. Marketing saying anything about that while accusing you of being part of 'a competitor'.



That's right... I am the same DavidV that helped start WORKS way back in 2002. I specifically stated that earlier in this thread. Check the date on the web page you are quoting (5 years old!).

Am I a marketing guy? Sure. Does most of the Evo community still remember me as the person they used to talk to by phone/email/in person back in 2003-2004 when I was the Marketing/PR Director at WORKS? No doubt.

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=57927&highlight=davidv

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=59460&highlight=davidv

Nothing very viral or subversive about that. Most everyone who has been the Evo scene for any length of time remembers me from meets, events, and track days, etc.

-- DavidV :D

[JanSolo]

+1

[ST]

So you want to know more about me and EIP eh? Because that somehow changes the fact all of the Works knocksums, screwed up AFRs, pulled timing, and makeshift boost control right? lol

If you want to know more about me, you have to go back into history to a certain Mickey D's. Or better yet, just stop by any Wednesday SJ meet. THey'll be about 15-20 Evo owners chilling there at the MIckey D's talking the shit. Funny thing about 2-3 months ago when I first started going to these meets, I was but a newbie and didn't know much better. But guess what, those SJ were very open minded, very passionate, and very helpful. SO much in fact, that after the first week being there, I had volunteers mind you to help me out on my car including shocks installs, bumper removals, etc.! These band of guys and gals really opened up to how much the Evo cameraderie could be. SO how does that play into EIP? Guess what, most of the guys are also tuned by EIP but many weren't, and even more were new to the Evo scene. These new guys were some of the most inspiritional, honest, and friendly folks I have met recently, so of course I wanted to help them out as much as I can, but in what fashion...hmmmm?

Well, lets rewind a little, since we're all into my history now. As many know, my car is being constantly tuned. This wasn't out of request of EIP themselves, but rather a DEMAND from me, because hell i paid it with my own hard earned money! It's true, my car is probably the real "dyno queen", or as others have affectionally (or maybe unaffectionally) called it, a "dyno whore". I come from Supra TT's, the most gawd awful horsepower freaks on the planet bar none. When I first got tuned at EIP, I hit 290whp which was good and all, but I had seen numbers of 300whp or more. SO I went about working looking at every facet of tuning I could get my hands on: external mods as well as yes....ECUFLASH AND EVOSCAN! After my first flash, I was a logging / self tuner freak, reading up on every conceivable information i can get my hands on. During this time, I experimented with my car A LOT, and after finally getting comfortable with it, I started messing with other folks tune, namely again my buds from the SJ meet. Of course, with this newfound information, I went back to EIP and asked vehemently to retune my car again (after the SJ Meet folks again graciously helped me installing more mods). This finally pushed me over the 300whp mark, which was a hard barrier for many folks. After logging these newfound runs, I found some very intersting information through Evoscan and went about correcting it, again with the help of the SJ Meet folks. This netted me some resounding gains of up to 310whp+ but you know what, after countless tuning runs by EIP, but I was still unsatisfied. So of course, EIP being my tuner, I worked with them again to map out more strategies to get over this next hurdle, which we have spent countless dyno hours going about.Â* I know there were some nights that EIP was just sick of my car, it always parked there, it always being asked to be placed back on the dyno, but I pushed them on, and you know what, they did whatever they could to accomodate me. Now, I am not quite sure why EIP chose to continue working with me, since I was annoying as hell through it all, always going there asking this and that, but I would hope it has something to do with the fact that we collectively found some barriers and broke through them with my Evo. That sir, to me is true passion and dedication!

So let's turn this full circle....during the timeframe of my car going through all these power iterations, i was also working on my own side experiments again with the SJ Meet crew (some of them can attest to my crazy midnight tune runs we did). NOw you see, the SJ Meet folks weren't from Woodside or Los Gatos or Saratoga, this is SJ we're talking about here, and many had to bend head over heals just to acquire their Evos. Mods were scarce on many cars, and flash tunes were simply not a budgetary item on most minds (they're usually gooing for $500+).Â* But through the experimentations on my car, EIP and myself found some very interesting things, to which I asked EIP to see if they would be up to try to offer some value-added flashes that made immense power, but was relatively stock AND most important was economically feasible for folks like those in the SJ Meet. They took up on this challenge and started recruiting beta cars from the SJ Meet crew, through countless days and nights of tuning, dynoing, and logging. I partook in this endeavor logistically since the SJ Meet guys were my friends, and from some technical aspects on logging, but the tuning was done exclusively through EIP themselves. When I posted about things coming to fruition soon because of my car, these tunes were it...a way to go about getting people power, without resorting to spending a ton of money on either mods and the like. Although EIP is the sole proprieter of the IP involved in the tunes, I would like to think that I played a hand in pushing this through via the many phone calls, logging, and research I did to assist the SJ Crew guys in getting this done. I am no mechanic, nor do I consider myself a tuner, just more of a journeyman internet dweeb that loves to tinker with stuff, especially through software, so I leave the rest to EIP and their past experience to tune thereof.

If this sounds like a story of my singular lust for horsepower, then you get a gawddamn cookie. That is my true affiliation with them. They are my catalyst to the horsepower numbers I crave for. They are the ones that put the car on the dyno and tweak things accordingly. They are the ones presently rebuilding my car again to meet the new horspower goals I outlined to them. OUr relationship remains as such, on what can be done when driven hard by their customer, namely me, myself, and I! So why do I use the term "we" when I reference EIP and myself so much: simply because I cannot do what I have done without them, so I want to ensure they get the credit. Even more so, when I am working on the next phase of my tuning, it is handled by EIP (e.g., they went to SEMA to check out the Cosworth cams, after I asked them specifically to with all the bogus Works dyno sheets). Yes, I am there a lot, but I am in no ways employed by them, or even remotely paid. My reward is in the power of my car, the fact that I can call it my own and know every facet of how it got there. My other satisfaction lies in the fact that I was able to help the fellow SJ Meet guys within their $$$ constraints and yet still be able to make decent power.

So what bearing does this have on this discussion? I would surmise that some viral marketing folks / buddies were asked to dig into me and this is the best they could come up with. No factual rebuttals to all that has been posted, no information on the course Works will be taking to correct their problems, but just more slanderous attacks. I wonder if I was to go to another shop, would they start citing that next shop too? lol.....SO anyways, if you want to question me more, again just go to Mickey D's every Wednesday. ;)

[JanSolo]

Actually, DavidV was messaged by a few members on NCE asking what he thought of the posts. None of these people are affiliated with WORKS. You'd know if you asked rather than assumed. ;)

[JanSolo]

+1



Actually, DavidV was messaged by a few members on NCE asking what he thought of the posts. None of these people are affiliated with WORKS. You'd know if you asked rather than assumed. ;)

[MR_06]

imma join the +1 crowd.. ;)

[Matz]

norcal admins and works are scared shitless now. Hence why they are having the post replied deleted from other ppl discovering this issue.


NCE admins are scared? I doubt that very much. It's not like WORKS pays them to keep the site open. There are lots of paid vendors here, SpeedElement, Gruppe-S, FIA, etc... I think they're just trying to keep things fair. I'm sure that the same thing would have happened if someone found that Company Z's flash had some issues.

[JanSolo]

Post as much as you want about other cars having issues with the P2. I don't care.

BUT, I've been very liberal in the past about people talking shit as much as they want about anyone and everything. These threads are going to be completely useless without facts - not bitching, whining, talking shit, telling someone they suck and all the other inane babble that adds no value.

See, Bryan aka EarlyApex just presents facts. It's great. You see the data, you can make conclusions, everyone is happy because they are learning something. On the contrary, when you become a dick, talk shit, throw out insults, well it gets really old and then we start deleting posts. Don't like it? THEN DON'T POST AND DON'T COME BACK. Obviously, I'd rather it not come to this, so just be cool, present data and we all win. w00t!

[nebolic]

norcal admins and works are scared shitless now. Hence why they are having the post replied deleted from other ppl discovering this issue.


NCE admins are scared? I doubt that very much. It's not like WORKS pays them to keep the site open. There are lots of paid vendors here, SpeedElement, Gruppe-S, FIA, etc... I think they're just trying to keep things fair. I'm sure that the same thing would have happened if someone found that Company Z's flash had some issues.



+1

Why would I be scared Positron? Please elaborate? Positron, are you here to provide some insightful information, or you're just joining the party and want to start some shit?

nebo

[lncrevoviii]

These threads have been very usefull. But bashing each other is not going to help.

Lets look back what caused the problem, P2 flash has known to be the safest out there. After some of the WORKS cars were dynoed, some members found out that those cars were knocking like crazy, stating, that P2 flash was not safe at all as WORKS claims it to be. So, they made a thread for the sake of other members, to enlighten them about the flash. I mean, everyone here knows by now what happens when a car is knocking. Hopefully, WORKS knew about their P2 flash and the crazy knocks it produced before hand, if they didn't, then now they know about it. Those members just did half of their work, which was to find the weakness in the flash.
So, why not improve on it, rather than, try to explain the knock counts and such.




2 Cent tip left on the table.

D.

[Matz]

+1

I agree with you there, but I think some are upset because it sounds like the knock data is being refuted. So that's why the best thing to do (for everyone's benefit) is to run a set of cars on the dyno with both tools, and allow everyone at the session to discuss the findings together.

I wouldn't mind being part of the test... I've got the TR340 package on my Evo and love it to death. But I'm very curious how much different EvoScan and the MUT tool can really be, as everyone else is at this point.

[tirbolag9]

+1

I agree with you there, but I think some are upset because it sounds like the knock data is being refuted. So that's why the best thing to do (for everyone's benefit) is to run a set of cars on the dyno with both tools, and allow everyone at the session to discuss the findings together.

I wouldn't mind being part of the test... I've got the TR340 package on my Evo and love it to death. But I'm very curious how much different EvoScan and the MUT tool can really be, as everyone else is at this point.


i agree. get some cars with p2 flashes and use both tools and finally put this thing to rest. hell, might as well make it a bbq + beer get together!

[trinydex]

+1

I agree with you there, but I think some are upset because it sounds like the knock data is being refuted. So that's why the best thing to do (for everyone's benefit) is to run a set of cars on the dyno with both tools, and allow everyone at the session to discuss the findings together.

I wouldn't mind being part of the test... I've got the TR340 package on my Evo and love it to death. But I'm very curious how much different EvoScan and the MUT tool can really be, as everyone else is at this point.
i'd like to see how much power ea can pull outta your car. and how many knock counts he can lower it.

[earlyapex1]

i'd like to see how much power ea can pull outta your car. and how many knock counts he can lower it.


I already tuned his car way back. ;)

[trinydex]

i'd like to see how much power ea can pull outta your car. and how many knock counts he can lower it.


I already tuned his car way back. ;)


and theEEEEEEEEn??????

oh wowiewowow


ok guys, i went to the Works meet in Frisco.

Here is the deal i talked to the person that does the flashes. I asked him about the 600 + maps they claim the ECU has.

Anyways the guy almost seemed like he didnt know what he was talking about.

I was like so whats up with that post of the 600+ maps how do you guys know this, and have you guys traced a purpose for each one. And hes all well we dont know all of em, but i know a guy that has inside info and has logged them all. I was like whos this guy, hes all well hes got info on the inside. WTF is the inside?

Then i proceeded to ask them simple questions about timing, and AFR, and he was just oh it depends, this and that. You know how you can sometimes tell somebody is trying to answer your questions with BS it kind of felt like that.

[Evo442]

ok guys, i went to the Works meet in Frisco.

Here is the deal i talked to the person that does the flashes. I asked him about the 600 + maps they claim the ECU has.

Anyways the guy almost seemed like he didnt know what he was talking about.

I was like so whats up with that post of the 600+ maps how do you guys know this, and have you guys traced a purpose for each one. And hes all well we dont know all of em, but i know a guy that has inside info and has logged them all. I was like whos this guy, hes all well hes got info on the inside. WTF is the inside?

Then i proceeded to ask them simple questions about timing, and AFR, and he was just oh it depends, this and that. You know how you can sometimes tell somebody is trying to answer your questions with BS it kind of felt like that.

Who were you talking to?

[trinydex]

it was just a quote from evom... one person's experience.

[Matz]

it was just a quote from evom... one person's experience.


I don't know coolguycooz's background, so that doesn't mean much to me (at the moment). It's like my telling you that so-and-so doesn't know how to set up suspensions, because it sounded to me like he didn't know what he does when he dials in camber or something. But I don't know jack shit about suspension setup, so it's an invalid argument... not to mention that when it comes to working on black boxes, some people don't like to share information. Just as an example, I hear that Andy has tricks to increase one's gas mileage, but he hasn't given away any of his secrets.

It would be good if Pete could give us an example of a map that EvoScan doesn't support, without giving away specifics. Without that, I don't think people are going to buy the argument that the MUT tool is better. So this simply brings us back to the original solution -- tune a set of cars with both tools, and the results (which are purely based on data) will speak for themselves.

[trinydex]

so did you notice an hp increase when ea tuned your car? did it knock less as per mitsulogger/evoscan? cuz i mean that's a bit of a testimoney right there... if you're not comfortable sharing then we'll leave that to rest as there's other threads ongoing that are also a testament.

[earlyapex1]

so did you notice an hp increase when ea tuned your car? did it knock less as per mitsulogger/evoscan? cuz i mean that's a bit of a testimoney right there... if you're not comfortable sharing then we'll leave that to rest as there's other threads ongoing that are also a testament.


Matz car already had the works P2 off and out of the car. I retuned his car on the dyno for his new mods, and 720cc injectors. It was a uber safe tune, here is the thread for it: http://www.norcalevo.net/forum/index.php/topic,11730.msg156284.html#msg156284

I am hoping to get the car back on the dyno or do some road tuning as it left the dyno fairly rich for safety and there is lots more power to be seen.

[Matz]

so did you notice an hp increase when ea tuned your car? did it knock less as per mitsulogger/evoscan? cuz i mean that's a bit of a testimoney right there... if you're not comfortable sharing then we'll leave that to rest as there's other threads ongoing that are also a testament.


Matz car already had the works P2 off and out of the car. I retuned his car on the dyno for his new mods, and 720cc injectors. It was a uber safe tune, here is the thread for it: http://www.norcalevo.net/forum/index.php/topic,11730.msg156284.html#msg156284

I am hoping to get the car back on the dyno or do some road tuning as it left the dyno fairly rich for safety and there is lots more power to be seen.


Yes, it was unfortunate that I had removed the P2 before ECUflash and the tactrix cable for the Evo ever surfaced. I removed it for totally unrelated reasons -- I purchased the ECU+, and was going to have earlyapex tune my car with that piggyback. But then ECUflash came out, and that seemed like a better choice, thus relegating the ECU+ to basic datalogging services.

...which brings back another good reason to use my car for this study. I am a known WORKS cheerleader, I have the TR340 (minus P2), and having the ECU+ in the car allows us to verify that various data read by the MUT III has the same source value (like knock) as data read by EvoScan.

[UCB]

I have the TR340 (minus P2), and having the ECU+ in the car allows us to verify that various data read by the MUT III has the same source value (like knock) as data read by EvoScan.


good info here

[ST]

Guess what another little birdie told me? Some guy wrote a Car Hacks for Dummies book, supposed to be really cool stuff. I wonder if he would condone Evoscan / ECUFlash?! ;)

http://www.amazon.com/Hacks-Mods-Dummies-David-Vespremi/dp/0764571427/ref=si3_rdr_bb_product/102-6334094-6992957

Hypocrisy at its finest eh?

[trinydex]

so did you notice an hp increase when ea tuned your car? did it knock less as per mitsulogger/evoscan? cuz i mean that's a bit of a testimoney right there... if you're not comfortable sharing then we'll leave that to rest as there's other threads ongoing that are also a testament.


Matz car already had the works P2 off and out of the car. I retuned his car on the dyno for his new mods, and 720cc injectors. It was a uber safe tune, here is the thread for it: http://www.norcalevo.net/forum/index.php/topic,11730.msg156284.html#msg156284

I am hoping to get the car back on the dyno or do some road tuning as it left the dyno fairly rich for safety and there is lots more power to be seen.


Yes, it was unfortunate that I had removed the P2 before ECUflash and the tactrix cable for the Evo ever surfaced. I removed it for totally unrelated reasons -- I purchased the ECU+, and was going to have earlyapex tune my car with that piggyback. But then ECUflash came out, and that seemed like a better choice, thus relegating the ECU+ to basic datalogging services.

...which brings back another good reason to use my car for this study. I am a known WORKS cheerleader, I have the TR340 (minus P2), and having the ECU+ in the car allows us to verify that various data read by the MUT III has the same source value (like knock) as data read by EvoScan.
do it!

[AreSTG]

I am a known WORKS cheerleader


please never make me picture you in a cheerleader outfit again

[DavidV]

Guess what another little birdie told me? Some guy wrote a Car Hacks for Dummies book, supposed to be really cool stuff. I wonder if he would condone Evoscan / ECUFlash?! ;)

http://www.amazon.com/Hacks-Mods-Dummies-David-Vespremi/dp/0764571427/ref=si3_rdr_bb_product/102-6334094-6992957

Hypocrisy at its finest eh?


Have you read the book? If not, maybe you should... I don't see any hypocrisy unless you are strictly assuming what I say in it based on the title.

Once you read through it, you'll see I address several different approaches for different types of enthusiasts:

(1) Standalone ECUs
(2) Piggyback controllers
(3) Reflashes and EPROMS

Each approach has its pros and cons, and each is better suited for different kinds of car owners.

Using myself as an example, I love having a standalone ECU, wideband O2 sensor and datalogger for my MR2 and being able to change every parameter based on the learning that we do on and off the dyno. My car is a constant work in progress, is out of warranty, and is far too modified to use anything remotely off-the-shelf on it.

For some other people, a simple "set it and forget it" reflash or EPROM is the way to go. I use an off-the-shelf EPROM for my BMW, which has standard bolt-ons, and the fact that the car is a daily driver, needs to pass emissions, and doesn't get changed around enough to warrant constantly revisiting the ECU makes this the ideal choice for me.

Some enthusiasts will want the ability to trade/modify and manipulate maps, but at the end of the day, this is a comparatively small percentage of the buying public. By and large, most consumers still want the simplicity, convenience, peace of mind, and lower cost of a ready-made solution for their mildly modified cars.

Different strokes for different folks.

In my Dummies book, I explain how a reader can set his/her short, medium, and long term project goals and budget time and resources accordingly. This is the only way to figure out which is the best suited approach to meet those goals.

There is no doubt that the EvoScan/ECUflash has its place - and an important one - for some Evo consumers looking to spend a lot of time tweaking their maps but who need to retain a factory ECU because they run their car in a class that prohibits standalone ECUs. It also would benefit smaller shops looking to develop products for the Evo who don't already have and/or can't afford or justify the expense of a factory MUT tool.

Back when I was with WORKS, there were consumers that I spoke to that I personally encouraged to buy standalones and similar "open source" technologies that I knew weren't going to be happy with the limitations of a basic reflash. WORKS did not get the dollars those consumers had to spend on that day, but I was confident that I was giving them good advice and that they might still come back to WORKS for other products down the line. There were also those consumers that I knew would be perfect candidates for it.

At the end of the day, a business that understands what its audience wants and can benefit from is the one that will be around to stand the test of time.

Also, like it or not, the "custom mapping" resulting from datalogging individual customer cars that you advocate as being superior to anything WORKS has to offer, is currently offered by WORKS and has been for years. It is expensive as hell, and most people would be better off with standalone ECUs that would want something like that, but the WORKS Time Attack Evo (Limited Class winner in 2004, 2005 and second place in 2006) runs a stock WORKS reflashed ECU. So does the USTCC Championship Evo.

However, if a customer called me and wanted to build a car for Time Attack, I would recommend a standalone. Why? Well, the WORKS Time Attack car has a highly developed reflash library because countless hours were committed to it in-house. Any paying customer would have spent so many thousands of dollars to get there, they could likely have bought several top-shelf Motec systems for the development time spent on that car.

The USTCC Evo is slightly different in that, as I understand it, that car had to retain the factory ECU. Still, it was important enough that price was no object in the amount of fine-tuning needed to build an exhaustive library of highly customized flashes specific to that car.

On the other hand, most anyone else would have been better off with either (a) an off-the-shelf reflash solution or (b) a complete ECU replacement like a Power FC/AEM/etc. bundled with a wideband and datalogger.

Like I said, different strokes for different folks.

Does that help?

-- DavidV :D

[UCB]

Does that help?

-- DavidV :D



No, not at all. It has nothing to do with this thread or the works flash or the claims that the works flash/logging tools are far superior to evoscan/ecuflash, despite both being 100% based on the same data that is spat out directly from the ECU

So far PK or anyone else at works has yet to step up to the plate and defend the claims they made with data/facts instead of marketing fluff

Like I said, this is the internet, talk is cheap. Just because some guy with vendor status makes XXX claims does not mean the entire evo community is gullible enough to consider it as fact

As far as custom maps being "expensive as hell", a full custom dyno tune by Speedelement is $550 (openly advertised on their website)...$50 less than the works flash.....

[DavidV]

No, not at all. It has nothing to do with this thread or the works flash or the claims that the works flash/logging tools are far superior to evoscan/ecuflash, despite both being 100% based on the same data that is spat out directly from the ECU


So this thread is all about the relative capability of scanning tools and the quality of data that those tools are able to deliver?

Is that why you posted this earlier:

"This has nothing at all to do with trying to infringe on WORKS IP, and has everything to do with a community of enthusiasts being more educated and not biting on the WORKS marketing BS

This is not about the style of their tune, we are not trying to replicate the P2/P2R flash, this is 100% about them selling sub-par unsafe flashes."


As far as custom maps being "expensive as hell", a full custom dyno tune by Speedelement is $550 (openly advertised on their website)...$50 less than the works flash.....

If Speedelement or any other vendor will spend the amount of time that WORKS spent building a library of dozens of map configurations for $550, that would be the smokin' deal of the century. I don't know how any shop could stay in business if each customer's car took weeks or even months of development time for $550 though. An hour or so on the road or dyno with a single map uploaded to a customer's car is nowhere near the amount of time it takes to build a truly custom map database for a car like the Time Attack or USTCC Evos.

-- DavidV :D

[earlyapex1]

There is no doubt that the EvoScan/ECUflash has its place - and an important one - for some Evo consumers looking to spend a lot of time tweaking their maps but who need to retain a factory ECU because they run their car in a class that prohibits standalone ECUs. It also would benefit smaller shops looking to develop products for the Evo who don't already have and/or can't afford or justify the expense of a factory MUT tool.


Wait, I thought evoflash logged incorrect information? How can small shops and individuals use this tool to develop products and tunes if it gives incorrect information about what the car is doing?

[earlyapex1]

If Speedelement or any other vendor will spend the amount of time that WORKS spent building a library of dozens of map configurations for $550, that would be the smokin' deal of the century. I don't know how any shop could stay in business if each customer's car took weeks or even months of development time for $550 though. An hour or so on the road or dyno with a single map uploaded to a customer's car is nowhere near the amount of time it takes to build a truly custom map database for a car like the Time Attack or USTCC Evos.


What does a flash database for a race car have to do with custom tuning street cars on a dyno?

I also thought works P2's where off the shelf flashes. Whats the database of maps for? Aren't the flashes for the WORKS TR340 packages for just those parts. Whats the database of maps for then?

[UCB]

No, not at all. It has nothing to do with this thread or the works flash or the claims that the works flash/logging tools are far superior to evoscan/ecuflash, despite both being 100% based on the same data that is spat out directly from the ECU


So this thread is all about the relative capability of scanning tools and the quality of data that those tools are able to deliver?

Is that why you posted this earlier:

"This has nothing at all to do with trying to infringe on WORKS IP, and has everything to do with a community of enthusiasts being more educated and not biting on the WORKS marketing BS

This is not about the style of their tune, we are not trying to replicate the P2/P2R flash, this is 100% about them selling sub-par unsafe flashes."


As far as custom maps being "expensive as hell", a full custom dyno tune by Speedelement is $550 (openly advertised on their website)...$50 less than the works flash.....

If Speedelement or any other vendor will spend the amount of time that WORKS spent building a library of dozens of map configurations for $550, that would be the smokin' deal of the century. I don't know how any shop could stay in business if each customer's car took weeks or even months of development time for $550 though. An hour or so on the road or dyno with a single map uploaded to a customer's car is nowhere near the amount of time it takes to build a truly custom map database for a car like the Time Attack or USTCC Evos.

-- DavidV :D


1. Did you not read the first post? This thread is entirely about the tools for open use. The works flashes have been repeatedly logged, in these logs they have proven shown knock, high IDCs, pulling timeing, reverting to the low octane map, etc. Go check out earlyapex's 2 threads called Casestudy #1 and #2. An individual, presenting facts and facts only, not marketing BS

Works rebuttal to all these downfalls was that our logging software is wrong and only the MUTIII tool really knows whats going on. Again, a factless rebuttal, I WANT PROOF

Yes, this is about how poorly the works flashes are running, and how they are trying to cover it up and place the blame on the evoscan/ecuflash software, instead of taking the time to actually investigate their maps, log them fully on the road and on the dyno, and tweak them to make them truely safe maps fit for OTS sales. (and post this data)

2. Speedelements pricing is not for 1 hour or road tuning, its for a full out custom dyno tune (just like I typed the first time)

Perhaps you should do some research on these things before you make blind ASSumptions. And who gives a rats ass about a "library of dozens of map configurations", if they run poorly and knock like a trick or treater

And IIRC, the speedelement flashes all put down superior numbers compared to the works flashes, on the same dyno

As far as the TIme Attack and USTCC evos, who gives a rats ass? We are talking about consumer products here, not race cars. How well their race cars performs means absolutely nothing if their OTS consumer flashes are sub-par. And It was great how Works told everyone to wait a few days on this issue because they had to go play with their time attack car.

DavidV....you...just like PK....are posting away...without ANY facts

I WANT FACTS. All this marketing fluff is getting HIGHLY annoying and repetitive. How many times can you say the same thing, honestly?

[EFIxMR]

David,

Tuning these reflashes for me is simple. I have been tuning stand alone EFI from scratch since 1998-1999.

http://www.evolutionmr.net/img/images/efi/motecm800evo8.jpg

This is the map off my street car.


I know how much Earlyapex hates it when stroke my own ego... but...

And as far as my credentials... My clients/work have...

-Won Wally's
-Are listed in Fastest FWD drag cars
-Competed in the 25 hours of Thunderhill
-Been featured in the Best Motoring American Touge (Topsetup)
-Been featured in national magazines
-Been featured in Ben Straders book Electronic Fuel Injection

Our stage 1 reflash consistently makes 290-300 whp.

Best ET on stage 1 done by our customer is 12.3 @ 110 in an Evo 9

[earlyapex1]

Photoshop and Motec open at the same time. I like!

[Matz]

I also thought works P2's where off the shelf flashes. Whats the database of maps for? Aren't the flashes for the WORKS TR340 packages for just those parts. Whats the database of maps for then?


The database of maps is for every permutation of WORKS parts.

[earlyapex1]

-Won Wally's


http://www.dcist.com/images/2005_0429_wallyworld.jpg

[earlyapex1]

The database of maps is for every permutation of WORKS parts.


Ok that makes sense, but how is that better than a custom tune again?

[Matz]

The database of maps is for every permutation of WORKS parts.


Ok that makes sense, but how is that better than a custom tune again?


I don't think it is expected to be, except that it's a cheaper alternative... probably somewhere between getting an OTS DynoFlash and a custom dyno / road tune.

[AreSTG]

The database of maps is for every permutation of WORKS parts.


Ok that makes sense, but how is that better than a custom tune again?


I don't think it is expected to be, except that it's a cheaper alternative... probably somewhere between getting an OTS DynoFlash and a custom dyno / road tune.

but somone said it's 50$ more than a full custom tune from another shop

[Matz]

but somone said it's 50$ more than a full custom tune from another shop


And that brings us full circle to the power of ECUflash, and whether or not it can be proven that the tactrix cable is inferior.

[UCB]

but somone said it's 50$ more than a full custom tune from another shop


And that brings us full circle to the power of ECUflash, and whether or not it can be proven that the tactrix cable is inferior.


the cable is the same, the SW is in the part in question







The database of maps is for every permutation of WORKS parts.


Ok that makes sense, but how is that better than a custom tune again?


I don't think it is expected to be, except that it's a cheaper alternative... probably somewhere between getting an OTS DynoFlash and a custom dyno / road tune.

but somone said it's 50$ more than a full custom tune from another shop



$50 less for the custom tune. Less money...more results...what concept

and seriously...DavidV...you need to stop posting in this thread, its obvious you are far removed from the evo community that you had the audacity to take cheap shot at Andy@Speedelement. If you were involved with the community and whats hot and whats not, you would know that Speedelement AND EIP have both been rolling out tunes with great numbers AND 0 knock counts AND safe AFs

To speculate that they half-ass their tunes is pure hogwash and only reflects poorly on you AND works since you are so diligently defending them.

Although we can't prove you are just here for viral marketing, you latest post sure makes it seem like it....and you think you were bad mouthing ST for supposed "vendor bashing", then you turn around and do the same thing!

Hippocratic badmouthing at its finest! Almost as good as questioning ecuflash/evoscan, while being the author of a book called "Car Hacks and Mods"

Mods/Admins...are you reading all of his responses in depth? Can you honestly say they are non-subjective in anyway? Has he posted a single tangible fact in this thread?

[Matz]

...EIP have both been rolling out tunes with great numbers AND 0 knock counts AND safe AFs


Not trying to bash EIP or sidetrack the discussion, but whatever happened to wzcx's thread with his 12 hour tune (http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=216826&page=1&pp=100)? I recall that the maps were a bunch of big blocks of 8's everywhere, and there were a lot of defensive posts in that thread. I remember TTP from evom even paid us a visit and had some interesting input. Just wondering if that whole thing got sorted out, and if the tunes are better now than then. I imagine the thread got ugly because it's now been deleted (and I have a feeling that this thread is headed in that direction).

[DavidV]

and seriously...DavidV...you need to stop posting in this thread, its obvious you are far removed from the evo community that you had the audacity to take cheap shot at Andy@Speedelement. If you were involved with the community and whats hot and whats not, you would know that Speedelement AND EIP have both been rolling out tunes with great numbers AND 0 knock counts AND safe AFs

To speculate that they half-ass their tunes is pure hogwash and only reflects poorly on you AND works since you are so diligently defending them.


What on earth are you talking about? I simply said it takes weeks or months to build up a map library for a specific car - this involves endless days of logging data under a wide variety of conditions (cold, hot, humid, dry, different elevations, different fuels, etc). If someone offered all of that for $550, it is an amazing deal. They would be undercharging for their time.

Shoot, after 100 hours of that (the equivalent of 10 full days of racing/tuning), you would be netting out at under minimum wage... or do you doubt that the Time Attack car or USTCC car have 100+ hours of net tuning in each of them?

Again... there are are dozens of maps for the USTCC and Time Attack cars based on hundreds of hours of collected data spanning an entire race season for the USTCC car and over two years of dyno/road time for the Time Attack car.

WORKS could build a whole library of maps for a car on a custom basis, but the price certainly wouldn't be $550 and I doubt anyone with real credentials would do it at that price. Why would they?

The reason a shop like WORKS does it, and has for years, is that those hundreds of hours logged go towards the development of their consumer flash product offerings.

An individual customer looking for that level of tuning wouldn't be doing reflashing - 99 times out of 100, they would have gone the standalone ECU route.

-- DavidV :D

[DavidV]

and seriously...DavidV...you need to stop posting in this thread...


I think I will. This is hurting my brain.

Have fun,
DavidV :D

[earlyapex1]

DavidV, what on earth are you talking about?

Why do you keep bringing up race cars in a thread and board that is 99% street cars, the tune(s) in question are on street cars, and the tune(s) in question are knocking, so obviously all those "endless days of logging data under a wide variety of conditions (cold, hot, humid, dry, different elevations, different fuels, etc)" didn't really help the street car tunes did they?

The custom tunes that are being done on these other cars with these other tuners that you are mentioning are for street cars.

Please. let's get back to things that actually apply to this argument. Like street cars, and tunes for them, the tools used to do these street car tunes, and the tools used to log these street car tunes.

Bringing up race cars a million times adds zero credibility to anything here as far as I am concerned. It's a whole nother' tuning and logging world.

[Lurk]

...EIP have both been rolling out tunes with great numbers AND 0 knock counts AND safe AFs


Not trying to bash EIP or sidetrack the discussion, but whatever happened to wzcxs thread with his 12 hour tune (http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=216826&page=1&pp=100)? I recall that the maps were a bunch of big blocks of 8s everywhere, and there were a lot of defensive posts in that thread. I remember TTP from evom even paid us a visit and had some interesting input. Just wondering if that whole thing got sorted out, and if the tunes are better now than then. I imagine the thread got ugly because its now been deleted (and I have a feeling that this thread is headed in that direction).


One guy out of how many? Seriously, I bet there are ALOT more WORKS customers (including you at one point in time) driving around with unsafe tunes that dont make any power versus customers tuned by EIP or SpeedElement.

[Lurk]

Oh not to mention the issues WZCXs car have been fixed for the most part IIRC. Has WORKS successfully fixed any of their customers cars that were knocking like crazy? If WORKS was so great MATZ, how come you ditched your P2 and had Bryan retune your car for you? :?

[earlyapex1]

If WORKS was so great MATZ, how come you ditched your P2 and had Bryan retune your car for you? :?


I think he already answered that.

[Lurk]

If WORKS was so great MATZ, how come you ditched your P2 and had Bryan retune your car for you? :?


I think he already answered that.


Right. So why is he defending them still and now trying to insinuate that EIPs tunes are unsafe?

[Matz]

Oh not to mention the issues WZCXs car have been fixed for the most part IIRC. Has WORKS successfully fixed any of their customers cars that were knocking like crazy? If WORKS was so great MATZ, how come you ditched your P2 and had Bryan retune your car for you? :?


Dude, relax. I already said I was just curious, and I was just asking for clarification about UCB's statement, since I recall something up with wzcx's tune. That's ALL. I'm not saying any more about EIP's tunes. Are you happy now? Jesus christ.

As I have stated in at least two other threads, including this one, is that I ditched the P2 because I bought the ECU+, before ECUflash ever came out. I figured, if I'm dropping 600 bucks on something, I'm not going to have it ride on top of the P2 when I can get $$$ back, and then Bryan can compare apples to apples when he tunes my car. Then out of nowhere ECUflash came out, and it was the clear way to go.

I know you hate WORKS. I know you know I like WORKS. I think everyone knows that I, like everyone else, just wants to have a dyno meet to compare the facts, and to find out if there is any truth behind the claim that one tool is better than another.

I swear, this is the most pissed off I've ever been from a post directed at me. Thanks.

[Matz]

Right. So why is he defending them still and now trying to insinuate that EIPs tunes are unsafe?


Ok, where in any of the posts here have I defended them? I've always tried to be as objective as possible. I have nothing against EIP or their tunes. I've talked to Paul, I think he's an honest guy, he backs up his work, and hell, he painted my car.

[ST]

it's unfortunate paul does not / cannot go online more often to defend himself, and if i try to for him, i am lambasted as an EIP employee. /rolleyes -Â* however, i will say that since my first tune several months ago to my more recent ones with EIP, they have improved significantly as more accurate and better datalogging tools were available and thus used (sorry still no MUT =/ ).

as for Mr. DavidV, the more we dig up about him, the more his credibility gets shot as his association with Works is just convoluting any valid arguements he may have (which is lacking in the first place). representing yourself as "just the founder of works" initially then being exposed first as a pro viral marketer, then supposedly a staunch supporter of self-made diy ecu tuning shows a lot about ones character and his true allegiance and agendas.

anyhow, this discussion has disintegrated into just more bs - i guess thats what u get when u start with it in the first place. i will however note that while i dont agree with the works tuning philosophy, nor their attitude, i don't think and would rather hope that they were knowingly negligent / ignorant of these issues and will do their due diligence to resolve the matters urgently in their offerings w/ either a disclaimer on "non-works" mods OR a rewrite of their tuned code altogether and not more marketing spill or quick hack-and-crack repairs.

[EFIxMR]

WORKS could build a whole library of maps for a car on a custom basis, but the price certainly wouldn't be $550 and I doubt anyone with real credentials would do it at that price. Why would they?

-- DavidV :D


Simple, because I do not do it for the money.

[Matz]

it's unfortunate paul does not / cannot go online more often to defend himself, and if i try to for him, i am lambasted as an EIP employee. /rolleyes - however, i will say that since my first tune several months ago to my more recent ones with EIP, they have improved significantly as more accurate and better datalogging tools were available and thus used (sorry still no MUT =/ ).


Thank you for posting that, Shaun. That's good to know! :thumbsup: I'll reiterate, I wasn't trying to direct attention towards Paul, I just wanted clarification on UCB's statement. But even then, I think Lurk's totally right -- wzcx was only one out of many customers that had a problem.

[trinydex]

why is this still going??? didn't i call it game over on the first page? that status will not change with anymore keyboard racing.

[UCB]

and seriously...DavidV...you need to stop posting in this thread, its obvious you are far removed from the evo community that you had the audacity to take cheap shot at Andy@Speedelement. If you were involved with the community and whats hot and whats not, you would know that Speedelement AND EIP have both been rolling out tunes with great numbers AND 0 knock counts AND safe AFs

To speculate that they half-ass their tunes is pure hogwash and only reflects poorly on you AND works since you are so diligently defending them.




WORKS could build a whole library of maps for a car on a custom basis, but the price certainly wouldn't be $550 and I doubt anyone with real credentials would do it at that price. Why would they?

The reason a shop like WORKS does it, and has for years, is that those hundreds of hours logged go towards the development of their consumer flash product offerings.


-- DavidV :D


Jesus Christ...did you SERIOUSLY just question Andy@Speedelements credentials AGAIN?!?!? Do you not know how many cars he has tuned? Do you personally know the extent of his own library of maps? I thought not!

To come in here, bash others for vendor bashing, then turn around and do the same thing? You are only hurting the reputation of WORKS even more by continuing with this dialog, I seriously suggest you stop with this slander, once again backed by ZERO facts.

Like Andy said, one of his tuned cars ran 12.3@110 on pump gas, Id really like to see a works TR340 car pull that off, LOL!

And why the hell do you keep talking about race cars, why the hell does that have to do with the CONSUMER P2 flash. Running 30+minute sessions on race gas at the track has nothing to do with daily driving on pump gas

Mods/Admins....again...are you reading what this DavidV fellow is saying? Do you know see the undercover shots he is making? Its absurd that he can go on like this, while I'm getting threatened with the Ban Stick...

The hypocrisy of your responses is mind-blowing....I surely hope works didn't pay for your services...as you seem to be doing the opposite of what your company strives to do

You will get threatened with the ban stick because you make negative comments towards other users. I've already had to edit this post because you keep on talking shit. It seems like you don't understand simple concepts such as "fire = hot" or "insulting people = ban". It's great for you to get on your high horse and preach to everyone, but somehow, I get this feeling that you are still not getting it.

Hugs,
JanSolo

[nebolic]

everyone stop... pretty please... with a cherry on top???

nebo

:lol:

FYI, I am coming up with a game plan to put all this to rest. Look for more info soon.

[Matz]

everyone stop... pretty please... with a cherry on top???

nebo

:lol:

FYI, I am coming up with a game plan to put all this to rest. Look for more info soon.




Last post before this thread gets locked! Group hug! :lol: If the game plan involves test subjects, I'll volunteer my car.

[nebolic]

everyone stop... pretty please... with a cherry on top???

nebo

:lol:

FYI, I am coming up with a game plan to put all this to rest. Look for more info soon.




Last post before this thread gets locked! Group hug! :lol: If the game plan involves test subjects, I'll volunteer my car.


yes it involves test subjects, you'll be first on the list. I have to coordinate the thing and it'll take quite a bit of work. more details to come.

nebo

[ob4]

Simple, because I do not do it for the money.


Disclosure: I am a paying customer of Speed Element, and Andy tuned my car.

This is my experience. Andy interacts with the customer during his tuning session. He explained what he has changed and why. Â*He answers questions that I had. Shows me the tools, analyze the data from logs with me. Â*I can see that he is truely passionate about his work. Â*

[earlyapex1]

FYI, I am coming up with a game plan to put all this to rest. Look for more info soon.


My 2cents on this.

Make it totally 3rd party. One car, two loggers. MUT and Evoscan. The only problem with this is that both tools can't log at the same time so each pull will have slightly different results, although it will be close depending on the car and tune.

Call SRM. They have a dyno and they are a Mitsubishi dealer and service center. They will have a MUT tool.

EDIT: On second thought, are SRM partners with WORKS still? We need a total 3rd party to do this.

[DavidV]

Jesus Christ...did you SERIOUSLY just question Andy@Speedelements credentials AGAIN?!?!?

No... and I never did before either.

-- DavidV :D

[ob4]

Mut-III scan tool is available for rent at SPX.

http://www.mitsubishitechinfo.com/epacarb/default.jsp

[earlyapex1]

btw, here are some good links:

http://forums.openecu.org/viewtopic.php?t=1063

http://forums.openecu.org/viewtopic.php?t=497

Loggers using MUT:

http://forums.openecu.org/viewtopic.php?t=501

http://forums.openecu.org/viewtopic.php?t=1044
http://forums.openecu.org/viewtopic.php?t=246

http://forums.openecu.org/viewtopic.php?t=1078

[SpeedElement]

btw, here are some good links:

http://forums.openecu.org/viewtopic.php?t=1063

http://forums.openecu.org/viewtopic.php?t=497

Loggers using MUT:

http://forums.openecu.org/viewtopic.php?t=501

http://forums.openecu.org/viewtopic.php?t=1044
http://forums.openecu.org/viewtopic.php?t=246

http://forums.openecu.org/viewtopic.php?t=1078


nice find, B!

[wzcx]

Since I was brought up upthread, I thought I'd lend my two cents about EIP. I was one of their early Evo tunes, and while I wasn't happy with the results, I certainly can't fault Paul's diligence and effort. He kept my car on the dyno for 12 hours- clearly not making any money- and when I did eventually complain, he offered me a free retune. I think he's a great guy, and from what I see, his tunes seem to be performing much better these days. I was going to start another thread, but I think this one will get more views. :lol:

[UCB]

Yeah, I think he did yours without evoscan

I wont get into the merrits of evoscan any further 8)

[AreSTG]

are we gunna compare ECU+ logging as well with these two?

[earlyapex1]

are we gunna compare ECU+ logging as well with these two?


ECU+ does not get its logging data from OBD2 or MUT.

[DANRR05]

Did my first datalog today. 2 runs in opposite directions, 3rd gear. see my mods below, 91 octane, any thoughts.
RPMÂ* fuelTrim_ TPS Knock TimingAdv OctaneFlag
2812 112.5 100 0 10 100
2968Â* Â* Â* Â* 112.5 100 1 5 100
3093 112.5 100 0 4 100
3187 112.5 100 0 4 100
3312 112.5 100 0 3 100
3437 112.5 100 2 2 100
3593 112.5 100 5 1 100
3750 112.5 100 5 4 100
3937 112.5 100 5 6 100
4093 112.5 100 4 7 100
4250 112.5 100 4 7 100
4406 112.5 100 4 7 100
4531 112.5 100 4 5 100
4687 112.5 100 3 6 100
4875 112.5 100 3 7 100
5031 112.5 100 3 7 100
5187 112.5 100 3 7 100
5343 112.5 100 2 6 100
5500 112.5 100 2 6 100
5656 112.5 100 2 7 100
5781 112.5 100 2 7 100
5937Â* Â* Â* Â* 112.5 100 1 8 100
6062 112.5 100 1 8 100
6218 112.5 100 1 10 100
6343 112.5 100 1 10 100
6500 112.5 100 0 11 100
6625 112.5 100 0 13 100
6750 112.5 100 0 14 100
6875 112.5 100 0 15 100
7000 112.5 100 0 16 100
7125 112.5 100 0 17 100
7250 112.5 94. 0 18 100

3250 112.5 100 0 6 100
3406 112.5 100 0 4 100
3531 112.5 100 0 5 100
3656 112.5 100 0 6 100
3843 112.5 100 0 6 100
3968 112.5 100 0 5 100
4093 112.5 100 0 7 100
4250 112.5 100 0 7 100
4406 112.5 100 0 8 100
4531 112.5 100 0 7 100
4718 112.5 100 0 6 100
4843 112.5 100 0 7 100
4968 112.5 100 0 7 100
5125 112.5 100 2 6 100
5281 112.5 100 2 5 100
5406 112.5 100 2 6 100
5562Â* Â* Â* Â* 112.5 100 1 7 100
5718 112.5 100 1 8 100
5812Â* Â* Â* Â* 112.5 100 1 8 100
5937 112.5 100 1 8 100
6062 112.5 100 0 10 100
6187 112.5 100 0 10 100
6312Â* Â* Â* Â* 112.5 100 0 11 100
6437 112.5 100 0 11 100
6531 112.5 100 0 11 100
6625 112.5 100 2 12 100
6750 112.5 100 2 13 100
6875 112.5 100 2 13 100
6968 112.5 100 1 15 100
7062 112.5 100 1 15 100
7187 112.5 100 1 15 100
7281 112.5 100 1 17 100
7375 112.5 100 0 18 100
7468 112.5 100 0 19 100

[UCB]

looks decent...I think they are having more problems with the IX flashes than the previous VIIIs

[joelplataMR]

someone open the door i still hear someone knockin

[earlyapex1]

looks decent...I think they are having more problems with the IX flashes than the previous VIIIs


16 knock sums at 7k is decent?

EDIT. oops, read the columns wrong. Yea that's not bad. Looks like it has enough KS around 5-5500rpm to pull timing though.

You're correct though, the 8's I have logged haven't been tooooo bad, but still losing some timing. The 9's are a different story.

[UCB]

Unless im reading it wrong (kinda hard since its all over), thats the timing advance

and if it was 16 counts, I imagine the octane flag dropping

[smack]

My 2cents on this.

Make it totally 3rd party. One car, two loggers. MUT and Evoscan. The only problem with this is that both tools can't log at the same time so each pull will have slightly different results, although it will be close depending on the car and tune.

Call SRM. They have a dyno and they are a Mitsubishi dealer and service center. They will have a MUT tool.

EDIT: On second thought, are SRM partners with WORKS still? We need a total 3rd party to do this.


fyi, srm and works aren't(and never were) partners and don't really work together since oliver left srm and went to works.
early on srm was a dealer for works parts.

[MarkSAE]

Just to add another data point for WORKS flashes.. I datalogged my car using Mitsulogger earlier today.. I did 2 pulls in 3rd gear on a pretty level road..

I have an 03 w/ the following mods:
WORKS P2, WORKS air filter, JDM DV, helix IC pipes, hks dp, helix HFC, hks cat-back, 10.5 hotside, hks 264i/272e cams

Pull 1:

RPM Knock Sum
2843 2
2687 3
2812 3
2906 3
3000 2
3062 1
3125 0
3218 0
3312 1
3437 1
3593 1
3687 1
3812 1
3937 0
4031 0
4125 0
4281 0
4437 0
4562 0
4718 0
4843 0
5000 0
5125 0
5312 0
5437 0
5625 0
5750 0
5937 0
6062 0
6156 0
6250 0
6312 0
6375 0
6500 0
6593 0
6687 0
6781 0
6875 0
6968 0
7031 0
7125 0
7187 0
7281 0
7375 0
7468 0
7531 0

Pull 2:

RPM Knock Sum
2312 0
2812 2
4031 2
4125 2
4218 1
4312 1
4437 1
4531 1
4625 1
4718 1
4843 0
4968 0
5031 0
5125 0
5250 0
5343 0
5468 0
5562 0
5687 0
5812 0
5875 0
6000 2
6125 1
6250 1
6312 1
6437 1
6531 1
6656 0
6718 0
6812 0
6906 0
7000 0
7125 0
7187 0
7312 0
7343 0
7468 0

I think I should try logging less parameters to get better resolution.. I dunno why the beginning of the pulls misses so many rpms. It could be a bug in Mitsulogger.

[UCB]

looks good...I just wonder what works has to say about it being done with a non-MUT logger, because according to the first post, those results are null and void

[earlyapex1]

Mark, your P2 is semi-custom right?

[MarkSAE]

It's a deviation of their 269 cam flash.

[upstateevo]

Here is some more data for Works flashes.

After seeing this thread I bought a Tactrix cable and logged with evoscan.

One pull is below, I did 4-5 different pulls last night and they all had almost identical knock counts

Almost stock 04 evo, 30k miles, P2R flash and axle back type muffler

Mobil1 93 oct, about 45 deg F

3rd gear
RPM KnockSum LoadMax160 OctaneFlag
2281.25 0 115 100
2343.75 0 114.375 100
2343.75 0 116.25 100
2343.75 0 117.5 100
2343.75 0 117.5 100
2343.75 0 118.75 100
2375 0 119.375 100
2406.25 0 120 100
2437.5 0 121.875 100
2437.5 0 122.5 100
2437.5 0 123.75 100
2437.5 0 124.375 100
2468.75 0 126.25 100
2500 0 126.875 100
2500 0 128.125 100
2500 0 129.375 100
2531.25 0 130 100
2531.25 0 131.25 100
2562.5 0 133.125 100
2812.5 1 158.75 100
2812.5 1 159.375 100
2812.5 1 159.375 100
2843.75 1 159.375 100
2875 1 159.375 100
2906.25 1 159.375 100
2906.25 1 159.375 100
2937.5 1 159.375 100
2968.75 1 159.375 100
2968.75 1 159.375 100
2968.75 1 159.375 100
3000 1 159.375 100
3031.25 0 159.375 100
3093.75 0 159.375 100
3093.75 0 159.375 100
3093.75 0 159.375 100
3125 0 159.375 100
3156.25 0 159.375 100
3187.5 0 159.375 100
3218.75 0 159.375 100
3218.75 0 159.375 100
3218.75 0 159.375 100
3281.25 0 159.375 100
3312.5 0 159.375 100
3312.5 0 159.375 100
3343.75 0 159.375 100
3343.75 0 159.375 100
3375 0 159.375 100
3468.75 0 159.375 100
3468.75 0 159.375 100
3468.75 0 159.375 100
3500 0 159.375 100
3531.25 0 159.375 100
3562.5 0 159.375 100
3593.75 1 159.375 100
3593.75 1 159.375 100
3593.75 0 159.375 100
3656.25 0 159.375 100
3687.5 0 159.375 100
3718.75 0 159.375 100
3718.75 0 159.375 100
3750 0 159.375 100
3750 0 159.375 100
3812.5 0 159.375 100
3843.75 0 159.375 100
3875 0 159.375 100
3875 0 159.375 100
3906.25 0 159.375 100
4812.5 0 159.375 100
4812.5 0 159.375 100
4812.5 0 159.375 100
4843.75 0 159.375 100
4906.25 0 159.375 100
4937.5 0 159.375 100
4937.5 0 159.375 100
4937.5 0 159.375 100
5000 0 159.375 100
5031.25 0 159.375 100
5062.5 0 159.375 100
5062.5 0 159.375 100
5062.5 0 159.375 100
5125 0 159.375 100
5156.25 0 159.375 100
5187.5 0 159.375 100
5187.5 0 159.375 100
5187.5 0 159.375 100
5250 0 159.375 100
5281.25 0 159.375 100
5312.5 0 159.375 100
5312.5 0 159.375 100
5312.5 0 159.375 100
5375 0 159.375 100
5406.25 0 159.375 100
5406.25 0 159.375 100
5437.5 0 159.375 100
5437.5 0 159.375 100
5500 0 159.375 100
5531.25 0 159.375 100
5531.25 0 159.375 100
5531.25 0 159.375 100
5593.75 0 159.375 100
5625 0 159.375 100
5656.25 0 159.375 100
5625 0 159.375 100
5656.25 0 159.375 100
5687.5 0 159.375 100
5718.75 0 159.375 100
5750 0 159.375 100
5781.25 0 159.375 100
5781.25 0 159.375 100
5781.25 0 159.375 100
5812.5 0 159.375 100
5843.75 0 159.375 100
5906.25 0 159.375 100
5937.5 0 159.375 100
5968.75 0 159.375 100
5937.5 0 159.375 100
5968.75 0 159.375 100
5968.75 0 159.375 100
5968.75 0 159.375 100
6031.25 0 159.375 100
6031.25 0 159.375 100
6093.75 0 159.375 100
6062.5 0 159.375 100
6093.75 0 159.375 100
6125 0 159.375 100
6125 0 159.375 100
6156.25 0 159.375 100
6187.5 0 159.375 100
6187.5 0 159.375 100
6187.5 0 159.375 100
6250 0 159.375 100
6250 0 159.375 100
6281.25 0 159.375 100
6312.5 0 159.375 100
6312.5 0 159.375 100
6312.5 0 159.375 100
6343.75 0 159.375 100
6375 0 159.375 100
6406.25 0 159.375 100
6406.25 0 159.375 100
6406.25 0 159.375 100
6437.5 0 159.375 100
6468.75 0 159.375 100
6468.75 0 159.375 100
6500 0 159.375 100
6531.25 0 159.375 100
6531.25 0 159.375 100
6531.25 0 159.375 100
6562.5 0 159.375 100
6593.75 0 159.375 100
6625 0 159.375 100
6625 0 159.375 100
6656.25 0 159.375 100
6687.5 0 159.375 100
6687.5 0 159.375 100
6718.75 0 159.375 100
6718.75 0 159.375 100
6750 0 159.375 100
6781.25 0 159.375 100
6781.25 0 159.375 100
6812.5 0 159.375 100
6812.5 0 159.375 100
6843.75 0 159.375 100
6843.75 0 159.375 100
6875 0 159.375 100
6906.25 0 159.375 100
6937.5 0 159.375 100
6906.25 0 159.375 100
6937.5 0 159.375 100
6968.75 0 159.375 100
7000 0 159.375 100
7000 0 159.375 100
7031.25 0 159.375 100
7031.25 0 159.375 100
7062.5 0 159.375 100
7093.75 0 159.375 100
7125 0 159.375 100
7125 0 159.375 100
7125 0 159.375 100
7156.25 0 159.375 100
7187.5 0 159.375 100
7187.5 0 159.375 100
7218.75 0 159.375 100
7218.75 0 159.375 100
7250 0 159.375 100
7281.25 0 159.375 100
7312.5 0 159.375 100
7312.5 0 159.375 100
7312.5 0 159.375 100
7343.75 0 159.375 100
7375 0 159.375 100
7375 0 159.375 100
7406.25 0 159.375 100
7406.25 0 159.375 100
7437.5 0 159.375 100
7437.5 0 159.375 100
7437.5 1 159.375 100
7468.75 1 159.375 100[/code]

[earlyapex1]

The LoadMax 160 doesn't really show anything, The CalcLoad is the one that shows what load column you are in.

Thanks for posting though. It seems most of the 8's don't have the knock counts that the 9's seem to have. The 9's are a bit more sensitive and slightly more complex to tune.

[upstateevo]

The LoadMax 160 doesn't really show anything, The CalcLoad is the one that shows what load column you are in.

Thanks for posting though. It seems most of the 8's don't have the knock counts that the 9's seem to have. The 9's are a bit more sensitive and slightly more complex to tune.


Good to know, I'll use Calcload next time. Thanks!

[whtrice]

OK..Its a WORKS car with a 50 year old guy driving it...Thats right..50..And it traps 115mph.Not bad for a WORKS car...I refuse to post my E.T. on the grounds it may incriminate me..lol... 60 ft time was 2.3..Pretty pathetic..But 115 mph..Only thing out there tonight that trapped over 115 was guys running 12.0 or 11's.Wish I knew how to launch these cars.






and seriously...DavidV...you need to stop posting in this thread, its obvious you are far removed from the evo community that you had the audacity to take cheap shot at Andy@Speedelement. If you were involved with the community and whats hot and whats not, you would know that Speedelement AND EIP have both been rolling out tunes with great numbers AND 0 knock counts AND safe AFs

To speculate that they half-ass their tunes is pure hogwash and only reflects poorly on you AND works since you are so diligently defending them.




WORKS could build a whole library of maps for a car on a custom basis, but the price certainly wouldn't be $550 and I doubt anyone with real credentials would do it at that price. Why would they?

The reason a shop like WORKS does it, and has for years, is that those hundreds of hours logged go towards the development of their consumer flash product offerings.


-- DavidV :D


Jesus Christ...did you SERIOUSLY just question Andy@Speedelements credentials AGAIN?!?!? Do you not know how many cars he has tuned? Do you personally know the extent of his own library of maps? I thought not!

To come in here, bash others for vendor bashing, then turn around and do the same thing? You are only hurting the reputation of WORKS even more by continuing with this dialog, I seriously suggest you stop with this slander, once again backed by ZERO facts.

Like Andy said, one of his tuned cars ran 12.3@110 on pump gas, Id really like to see a works TR340 car pull that off, LOL!

And why the hell do you keep talking about race cars, why the hell does that have to do with the CONSUMER P2 flash. Running 30+minute sessions on race gas at the track has nothing to do with daily driving on pump gas

Mods/Admins....again...are you reading what this DavidV fellow is saying? Do you know see the undercover shots he is making? Its absurd that he can go on like this, while I'm getting threatened with the Ban Stick...

The hypocrisy of your responses is mind-blowing....I surely hope works didn't pay for your services...as you seem to be doing the opposite of what your company strives to do

You will get threatened with the ban stick because you make negative comments towards other users. I've already had to edit this post because you keep on talking shit. It seems like you don't understand simple concepts such as "fire = hot" or "insulting people = ban". It's great for you to get on your high horse and preach to everyone, but somehow, I get this feeling that you are still not getting it.

Hugs,
JanSolo

[Lurk]

The LoadMax 160 doesn't really show anything, The CalcLoad is the one that shows what load column you are in.

Thanks for posting though. It seems most of the 8's don't have the knock counts that the 9's seem to have. The 9's are a bit more sensitive and slightly more complex to tune.


Should be noted that the guy who posted those logs is running 93 octane and not 91 like most Works customers are running out here.

[Lurk]

OK..Its a WORKS car with a 50 year old guy driving it...Thats right..50..And it traps 115mph.Not bad for a WORKS car...I refuse to post my E.T. on the grounds it may incriminate me..lol... 60 ft time was 2.3..Pretty pathetic..But 115 mph..Only thing out there tonight that trapped over 115 was guys running 12.0 or 11's.Wish I knew how to launch these cars.

You are at Sac Raceway, which is known for being a faster track. That 12.3 @ 110mph run was done at Infineon. Same place where I trapped 116mph. ;)

[whtrice]

I know you did your times at Infineon (congrats) and know all the talk about Sac being fast. I just had to take on the dare. You can crap all over my 115 MPH all you want

[MAB1025]

Did I miss something? I thought wednesday night drags was over for the season?

[whtrice]

Last night for Sac..I think Infineon closed 2 weeks ago.

[MAB1025]

ic ic...

[earlyapex1]

I know you did your times at Infineon (congrats) and know all the talk about Sac being fast. I just had to take on the dare. You can crap all over my 115 MPH all you want


I have something that is going to suprise alot of people. This relates to your 115mph post. It might not be telling the whole story...

About how power and power curves isn't really telling the whole story about how the car is running. Alot of people are going to be suprised. I sure as hell was.

It's a good one. Look for my newest case study tomorrow after I process everything. It will be called "Shock and Awe". Don't worry, it wasn't a WORKS flash. ;)

[mygsx]

Surprise, surprise! :lol: ;)

[whtrice]

Looking forward to it. In fact hopefully it may explain some things I found out while at the track. Specifically why the car became difficult to launch but made some good gains on the top end.




I know you did your times at Infineon (congrats) and know all the talk about Sac being fast. I just had to take on the dare. You can crap all over my 115 MPH all you want


I have something that is going to suprise alot of people. This relates to your 115mph post. It might not be telling the whole story...

About how power and power curves isn't really telling the whole story about how the car is running. Alot of people are going to be suprised. I sure as hell was.

It's a good one. Look for my newest case study tomorrow after I process everything. It will be called "Shock and Awe". Don't worry, it wasn't a WORKS flash. ;)