datalog, Fuel cut fixed 21 psi

[ApexVIII]

LogID RPM AccelEnrich TPS AirFlow AirTemp KnockSum TimingAdv Load
0 3281 7.06 25.88 88.06 55.04 0 43 16.993125
1 3250 33.33 30.59 194.99 53.6 0 39 47.85328125
2 3281 33.33 30.59 194.99 53.6 0 38 52.86304688
3 3312 33.33 30.59 194.99 52.1 0 39 52.86304688
4 3343 33.33 88.24 396.27 52.1 0 22 52.86304688
5 3406 88.24 100 673.03 52.1 0 8 164.3665772
6 3593 100 100 1000.11 52.1 0 3 229.1601176
7 3906 100 100 1088.17 55.04 0 4 245.0381143
8 4250 100 100 1132.2 56.39 0 3 241.3738286
9 4437 100 100 1207.68 57.68 0 4 246.0371186
10 4781 100 100 1358.64 60.08 0 4 247.8271823
11 5125 100 100 1415.25 61.2 0 4 244.7506452
12 5375 100 100 1452.99 61.2 0 4 242.1469149
13 5562 100 100 1276.87 61.2 5 7 XXX
14 5812 100 100 1528.47 61.2 4 2 251.0054315
15 5781 100 100 1566.21 58.91 2 8 246.4990909
16 6062 100 100 1578.79 57.68 0 10 238.5578894
17 6218 100 100 1578.79 56.39 0 11 231.9842714
18 6343 100 99.61 1591.37 55.04 0 11 228.7619095 <-- Hit Fuel Cut?? gauge read 20
19 6468 100 21.18 194.99 55.04 0 38 15.21062937 <---
20 5593 10.59 100 761.09 53.6 0 13 29.64407143
21 4937 100 100 1302.03 53.6 0 4 228.3265946 <-- then i got back on it
22 4937 100 68.63 1239.13 52.1 0 8 261.63
23 4843 64.31 29.41 301.92 52.1 0 32 88.13625
24 4875 26.27 19.22 163.54 52.1 0 38 16.993125
25 4843 12.94 13.33 88.06 52.1 0 37 16.993125
26 4843 10.59 13.33 62.9 52.1 0 34 16.993125
27 4343 6.67 13.33 44.03 52.1 0 28 16.993125
28 3812 5.88 13.33 50.32 53.6 0 29 16.993125
29 3281 6.27 13.33 62.9 53.6 0 32 16.993125
30 2968 6.67 13.33 31.45 53.6 0 26 16.993125
31 2593 9.02 13.33 31.45 53.6 0 26 16.993125
32 2312 7.45 13.33 31.45 53.6 0 25 16.993125
33 1906 9.02 13.33 31.45 53.6 0 21 16.993125
34 1656 10.2 13.33 31.45 55.04 0 19 16.993125
35 1531 10.98 13.33 31.45 55.04 0 17 16.993125
36 1406 12.16 13.33 31.45 55.04 0 17 16.993125

[AreSTG]

is 11 degrees of timing too much at 6k+ rpms?

0 knock so i guesse not?

[XVeloX]

not too much timing there, i assume you are on a stock tune? Looking at the timing "curve" looks like you are stock or mild tune? Also, just FYI 3rd gear pulls are the most helpful as it records for longer and you get more data points...

the timing goes from 4 to 7 and gets 5 counts and then dies...lol not so good

i see you said your gauge read 20psi, what gauge is it? Shouldn't hit fuel cut at only 20 psi.... i've seen it happen ~23 psi but not just 20...

what mods you runnin? The ones in your sig or different ones?

also, post your IPW's...

[ApexVIII]

same mods in the sig. its a stock tune. i hit fuel cut so i stoped logging. the run was in third gear. and it a autometer 30/30 colbalt boost gauge.

i am going to remove the fuel cut. bryan told me what to do so ill do another run tomorrow. this also is on shell gas

[ApexVIII]

RPM AccelEnrich CoolantTemp ECULoad InjPulseWidth
3281 7.06 171.79 10.62 1.28
3250 33.33 171.79 51.25 2.82
3281 33.33 171.79 50.62 3.07
3312 33.33 171.79 51.25 3.07
3343 33.33 171.79 51.25 3.07
3406 88.24 171.79 143.12 9.98
3593 100 171.79 159.38 15.62
3906 100 171.79 159.38 17.15
4250 100 171.79 159.38 16.9
4437 100 171.79 159.38 17.41
4781 100 171.79 159.38 17.92
5125 100 171.79 159.38 18.18
5375 100 171.79 159.38 18.18
5562 100 171.79 159.38 0
5812 100 171.79 159.38 19.71
5781 100 174.22 159.38 19.46
6062 100 174.22 159.38 18.94
6218 100 174.22 159.38 18.43
6343 100 174.22 159.38 18.18
6468 100 174.22 104.38 1.28
5593 10.59 174.22 15.62 2.05
4937 100 174.22 159.38 16.9
4937 100 174.22 159.38 20.22
4843 64.31 174.22 85.62 5.38
4875 26.27 174.22 50 1.28
4843 12.94 174.22 14.38 1.28
4843 10.59 174.22 12.5 1.28
4343 6.67 174.22 10 1.28
3812 5.88 174.22 8.12 1.28
3281 6.27 174.22 8.75 1.28
2968 6.67 179.35 10 1.28
2593 9.02 179.35 13.12 1.28
2312 7.45 179.35 11.88 1.28
1906 9.02 179.35 13.75 1.28
1656 10.2 179.35 15.62 1.28
1531 10.98 182.04 16.88 1.28
1406 12.16 182.04 19.38 1.28

[XVeloX]

lol shell FTL :?

also, stock injectors are just about maxed @ ~96% IDC...

seems like a short log, but i guess you did start pretty high and ended early. Try logging from ~2000rpms all the way through 7000. As far as the boost gauge, i'm surprised that you hit boost cut thta early cause i run the same gauge and it's pretty damn accurate...

my guess is that your stock injectors are trying to dump too much fuel in on the stock tune (very rich up top). With a quick street tune even you would be able to run 21-22 psi ok even as is and lower the duty cycle on those poor injectors. Since you don't have cams or anything, the stock injectors should suffice for now.

[ApexVIII]

RPM ECULoad IPW TPS Knock TimingAdv
2406 37.5 2.05 25.49 0 39
2406 36.88 2.05 25.49 0 38
2437 36.88 2.05 25.49 0 40
2437 36.88 2.05 25.49 0 40
2437 36.25 2.05 25.49 0 40
2437 36.25 2.05 25.49 0 40
2468 36.25 2.05 25.49 0 40
2468 36.25 2.05 25.49 0 40
2468 35.62 2.05 25.49 0 40
2500 35.62 2.05 25.49 0 40
2500 35.62 2.05 25.49 0 40
2500 35.62 2.05 25.49 0 40
2500 35.62 2.05 25.49 0 40
2531 35 2.05 25.49 0 40
2531 35 2.05 25.49 0 40
2531 91.88 6.66 100 0 20
2625 103.12 6.14 100 0 18
2687 111.88 6.66 100 0 16
2781 121.88 7.42 100 0 15
2843 131.88 7.42 100 0 11
2906 146.88 9.22 100 0 8
3031 159.38 11.01 100 0 6
3156 159.38 12.8 100 1 5
3281 159.38 15.36 100 0 3
3406 159.38 17.15 100 0 3
3531 159.38 17.41 100 0 3
3687 159.38 17.15 100 0 4
3843 159.38 17.41 100 0 4
4031 159.38 17.92 100 0 3
4187 159.38 17.66 100 0 3
4343 159.38 17.66 100 0 2
4500 159.38 18.18 100 0 2
4687 159.38 17.92 100 0 3
4843 159.38 18.43 100 0 4
4968 159.38 18.69 100 0 4
5125 159.38 18.69 100 0 4
5281 159.38 18.69 100 0 3
5437 159.38 18.69 100 0 4
5593 159.38 18.94 100 0 6
5687 159.38 18.94 100 0 6
5875 159.38 18.94 100 0 8
5968 159.38 18.69 100 0 9
6093 159.38 18.43 100 0 11
6218 159.38 18.43 100 0 11
6343 159.38 18.43 100 0 11
6468 159.38 18.18 100 0 13
6593 159.38 18.18 100 0 14
6718 159.38 18.18 100 0 15
6843 159.38 17.92 100 0 16
6937 159.38 17.92 97.65 0 17


ok new log after i fixed the fuel cut, and i uped the boost 1/3 turn on my Dejon MBC. so it spiked 21psi

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

6718 rpm 17.92 IPW = 100.32% Duty Cycle.

Time to start playing with the fuel maps or get a tune. ;)

btw, ECUload isn't something you need to log. Log LoadCalc instead.

[ApexVIII]

what should i do with my fuel tables? just lower the tables a little? and see how that goes?

[chrisw]

what should i do with my fuel tables? just lower the tables a little? and see how that goes?

adjust your fuel tables until you reach ~11:1 AFR when on the boost. If you do not have a wide band O2 sensor installed, then I recommend a visit to GST.

[ApexVIII]

does any one know approximately where my tables should be? so i can have something like a mail in tune?

[XVeloX]

does any one know approximately where my tables should be? so i can have something like a mail in tune?


depends on the car it seems like. You are probably rich, so you would want higher numbers in the fuel tables to lean it out. Also there is LOTS of power to be made on your timing table since you dont actually climb till ~5800rpms.

If you click fuel up a tick or two at a time, re-log, another tick, you should be safe as long as you watch the knock counts, but generally it is not recommended to tune without a wideband to measure your Air/Fuel ratio. I would either do LOTS of reading and learn a ton about tuning as i did, or take it to a true professional like bryan or Andy to get tuned. Your car probably has lots of potential with those mods...

[ApexVIII]

is the high octane fuel map, regular? like 91? and then if you put in crappy gas then it goes into low right?

[XVeloX]

is the high octane fuel map, regular? like 91? and then if you put in crappy gas then it goes into low right?


technically speaking no, but yes that is exactly what would happen if you put in anything besides 91 or some crappy 91. The high octane fuel map is what the ECU uses when you have 0 or minimal knock. Low octane is what the ECU uses if the car is having problems to save your engine. I would HIGHLY suggest leaving the low octane map stock as it is very safe. My previous tuner put both high and low the same, so when my car was having problems it wouldnt fix it since both maps were the same...

so to answer your ?, modify the high octane fuel/timing maps only. leave the low octane ones alone...

[XVeloX]

wow just took a look at the log, i'm surprised how good the curves look to be honest, nice and smooth. I assume you were slightly downhill on the log since you "made" 287/273 unless you have cams in your VIII? log looks good except for the things mentioned above that you should check out or have someone tune...

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

wow just took a look at the log, i'm surprised how good the curves look to be honest, nice and smooth. I assume you were slightly downhill on the log since you "made" 287/273 unless you have cams in your VIII? log looks good except for the things mentioned above that you should check out or have someone tune...


??? Wrong post?

[XVeloX]

wow just took a look at the log, i'm surprised how good the curves look to be honest, nice and smooth. I assume you were slightly downhill on the log since you "made" 287/273 unless you have cams in your VIII? log looks good except for the things mentioned above that you should check out or have someone tune...


??? Wrong post?


lol nope, sorry that was kinda outta context, he emailed me the log since i was curious. Just opened it up and it has the terrible stock timing curve but still had good smooth power curves that held. I was expecting it to look a little funky, but it looks identical to my curves as far as where the hp and tq peak

[ApexVIII]

what do you meen i "made" how did you figure that out? i never put my car on the dyno, the owner before did back when it had cams and a tune. should i advance my timing some? or should i be really worried about my Injectors being over 100%?

[ApexVIII]

the road looks like its very flat. i mean im not 100% but its extremely smooth and flat.

[XVeloX]

what do you meen i "made" how did you figure that out? i never put my car on the dyno, the owner before did back when it had cams and a tune. should i advance my timing some? or should i be really worried about my Injectors being over 100%?


Using a program that turns the logs into graphs, it can also calculate pretty decent numbers as far as how much power/torque you made. As far as tuning, it is suggested that you do fuel first, timing second. Once the fuel curve is set, then the timing can be adjusted. Also, you don't want the timing MORE advanced everywhere, especially not up top. it's the mid-range where you want to play with timing for the most part...

For the injector deal, i would say if you get a tune you will be fine. If you do indeed have cams (which i thought because of the numbers in the graphing program i used (dataloglab)) then injectors could be a worry, but should be fine otherwise.



the road looks like its very flat. i mean im not 100% but its extremely smooth and flat.


It's good that it's smooth and all, i just thought it wasn't flat because of the numbers in the program. Unless you do have cams? Just seems a bit high for a stock-ish 8. I could be completely wrong though, the numbers depend on a lot of things that could tweak the numbers either way...

[ApexVIII]

it sounds like a stock idle nothin that would sound like cams. the owner before took them off befor he traded it in

[XVeloX]

That's cool, i believe you. But this is what i saw: My lines are the light blue/light red, yours are the dark ones. Considering i have a tune, cams, and few other mods they should potentially look a little different:

http://www.box.net/index.php?rm=box_v2_download_shared_file&file_id=f_38649436

The numbers are not necessarily exact for wheel hp, but they usually are in the ballpark. Factors that change the numbers include:
Air Temp
Weight
Humidity
Tire/Wheel size
The slighteset uphill/downhill
Air pressure even

So i dunno, these numbers are assuming you run 235/45/17 tires. If they are 235/17/40 then it says you are around 264/252 (closer to the correct range).

[ApexVIII]

wow thats really cool, what program is that?

[XVeloX]

wow thats really cool, what program is that?


www.dataloglab.com

[AreSTG]

Velo, what boost are you running?

[AreSTG]

also, wnated to say, i wouldn't only judge if you have cams by the idle. I have HKS 272's and my idle sounds perfectly stock now with the injectors being scaled properly.

[ApexVIII]

the owner of the car before me is Sean (Smack) he said that they were removed. i only ran a 13.4 @102 at the track with a 1.8 60ft time and i am a pretty good driver, ya i could be better but im not bad.

[ApexVIII]

ok so im going to do some data log runs in a little, how does this look for timing? i left the fuel tables alone because i dont have a WB . so i just added some timing in the mid range. is that to much? where else should i add timing?

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[ApexVIII]

ok here is the log from making changes to the timing in the mid range, a little knoc and some how i got 4-5 counts of knock up top though

RPM IPW Knock TimingAdv
1968 6.4 0 15
2062 6.66 0 14
2156 6.91 0 13
2218 7.42 0 13
2281 7.68 0 13
2375 7.94 0 13
2468 8.45 0 11
2562 8.96 0 11
2656 9.22 0 11
2781 9.98 0 11
2875 11.26 2 9
3000 13.82 1 8
3156 15.62 1 5
3312 17.41 1 5
3437 17.15 1 5
3625 17.66 1 6
3781 17.92 1 5
3968 17.92 1 4
4156 18.43 1 3
4312 17.92 0 2
4500 18.43 0 2
4687 18.43 0 3
4812 18.69 0 4
4968 18.94 0 4
5125 18.94 0 4
5281 18.94 0 3
5437 18.94 0 4
5562 19.46 0 6
5718 19.46 0 6
5843 19.71 0 8
6000 19.46 0 8
6125 18.94 0 10
6250 18.94 0 10
6375 18.69 0 10
6500 18.43 0 13
6625 18.43 0 14
6750 18.18 5 13
6875 18.18 5 15
7000 18.69 4 15
7125 18.69 4 15
7218 18.43 4 15
7312 18.43 4 16

[XVeloX]

Velo, what boost are you running?


~21.5-22psi

[XVeloX]

The timing thing looks ok, but i would suggest changing more the areas that you are using instead of changing a whole block at a time. Also, like i said before, it would be suggested to change the fuel first (which can technically be done w/o a wideband very carefully). The counts up top are most likely do to your injectors being maxed out. You are at 109% at 7000 rpms. down low looks ok, but you want it to be a smooth timing curve, not a wavy noodle. Cause the stock map has you go up and down all over the place. You want to dip once to about 6 deg around peak boost/initial max load and then climb slowly at first and then increasingly faster as you reach redline around 16/17 deg timing. Do a search on NCE and you'll see some other people who were learning to tune. I believe there is a short beginners tutorial too. Also i would see matz's "Engine Grenading 101" and even a little bit of my "Gonna need to fix this..." thread. There are lots more and tons on Evom as well.

[AreSTG]

i don't understand how on this recent log, you get knock counts after 2781 rpm with only 11 timing advance.

but on page 1, your log has more timing at this point (like 15) and doesn't get but 1 count a few spots later.


I'm JUST now learning tuning at same time as you, but i'm wondering what caused this.Â* Is it just a pull-to-pull anomily, maybe day-to-day differences?Â* Or have you adjusted boost?

[XVeloX]

i don't understand how on this recent log, you get knock counts after 2781 rpm with only 11 timing advance.

but on page 1, your log has more timing at this point (like 15) and doesn't get but 1 count a few spots later.


I'm JUST now learning tuning at same time as you, but i'm wondering what caused this. Is it just a pull-to-pull anomily, maybe day-to-day differences? Or have you adjusted boost?


good observation, my guess is that it could be any number of things including gas quality etc. But normally 1-3 counts of knock can be overlooked if it doesn't drop any timing. Now it's hard to tell because it should be dropping, but if it dropped more than it should have that's bad. Also, try to do 2-3 pulls before you change anything as far as tuning. Sometimes you might have had a bad pull, hit a bump funky, or anything. If the pattern repeats its self over 2-3 pulls, it will be very obvious and you will know what to change. It's strange because he advanced his timing and yet that pull had less timing.

Like i said, the timing is secondary after the fuel, so if possible it would be more important to get the fuel portion in the ballpark range before messing with timing. Also when it comes to timing before you hit full boost, I tend to be pretty conservative and let the car hit full boost, because if you hit a large knock spike that early, it will throw off the rest of the pull. Timing is a funny thing, fuel is pretty easy because it's very easy to see where the car should be, but timing is kind of an art in the sense that you can run what the car can handle. Some like different timing in different places...

[ApexVIII]

so whould you suggest leaving the timing as is right now and just make small adjustments to the fuel tables? do you have a map of a fuel table, so that way i know what the general idea should look like?

[XVeloX]

so whould you suggest leaving the timing as is right now and just make small adjustments to the fuel tables? do you have a map of a fuel table, so that way i know what the general idea should look like?


ya i would leave the timing or knock it down a bit, and make small adjustments to the fuel until you are able to do pulls with no knock. I'll see if i can give a pic of a fuel map, but don't use those numbers as your own, just as a guideline.

http://www.box.net/index.php?rm=box_v2_download_shared_file&file_id=f_39018662

The top map is my fuel map, the bottom is my buddy spoolin's. I have no idea why the yare so different, but we both are running ~11.2 AFR's and are both making ~300whp. Evo's should for the most part be richer down low for torque and lean up top to give the hp.

[ApexVIII]

i added a little more fuel down low and leaned out the top a little, i raised the spike 1 psi(22 spike) and removed a little timing.

maps as they look now...
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RPM IPW KockSum TimingAdv
1906 6.14 0 16
1968 6.4 0 16
2000 6.66 0 14
2125 6.91 0 14
2187 7.17 0 13
2250 7.42 0 13
2343 7.68 0 13
2437 7.94 0 13
2531 7.94 0 13
2593 8.7 0 13
2718 8.96 1 11
2812 9.98 1 10
2906 11.26 0 10
3031 13.31 0 7
3250 16.13 0 4
3375 17.66 1 2
3500 18.69 0 3
3656 18.94 0 2
3781 18.69 0 2
3968 18.69 0 2
4156 19.46 0 2
4281 18.94 0 3
4437 19.46 0 3
4562 19.71 0 3
4718 19.2 0 4
4968 19.71 0 4
5125 19.46 0 4
5250 19.46 0 4
5406 19.2 0 4
5531 19.46 0 5
5687 19.46 0 6
5812 19.46 0 7
5937 19.2 0 9
6093 18.69 0 10
6218 18.43 0 11
6343 18.18 0 11
6468 17.92 0 11
6593 17.66 0 13
6718 17.66 0 13
6812 17.41 0 15
6937 17.15 0 15
7031 17.41 0 16
7156 17.15 0 16


Data log Lab HP/TQ

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[XVeloX]

looks good so far, just remember, that LoadCalc corolates to the x-axis on the fuel and timing maps, so you can figure out exactly what cell(s) is/are being averaged out (assuming you have stock injectors) and which you should change. If you keep logging the same stretch of road, you will see the power numbers increase with tuning, or decrease in the case of knock. GL with everything, let us know if you need any help with anything! I'm curious to how it will turn out man. Have fun and be careful.

[ST]

My previous tuner put both high and low the same, so when my car was having problems it wouldnt fix it since both maps were the same...


Technically incorrect...the stock ECU can and will still pull timing regardless of hi/lo fuel maps...but the interoplation algorithm won't be as designed.

fyi - use 2 byte load....much more accurate...

p.s. if xvelox maps are based off the rom i sent him, i would not use it.

[XVeloX]

My previous tuner put both high and low the same, so when my car was having problems it wouldnt fix it since both maps were the same...


Technically incorrect...the stock ECU can and will still pull timing regardless of hi/lo fuel maps...but the interoplation algorithm won't be as designed.

fyi - use 2 byte load....much more accurate...

p.s. if xvelox maps are based off the rom i sent him, i would not use it.


ok so i was not as precise with my words. When both maps were the same, the ECU added less fuel/took away less timing than it would have, and did it more slowly than it would have if the low octane maps were safer. The first thing i did to help my car out was to put both lo maps back to stock and that alone caused less knock because the car would richen/drop timing very quickly.

Care to explain on the 2 byte load?

Also, as far as the maps you sent, I havent used those for a long time, and also I mentioned that each individual car acts differently so he should only use them as a vague guidline while tuning his own. not sure exactly what you meant by the last comment there.

[ST]

ok so i was not as precise with my words. When both maps were the same, the ECU added less fuel/took away less timing than it would have, and did it more slowly than it would have if the low octane maps were safer. The first thing i did to help my car out was to put both lo maps back to stock and that alone caused less knock because the car would richen/drop timing very quickly.

Care to explain on the 2 byte load?

Also, as far as the maps you sent, I havent used those for a long time, and also I mentioned that each individual car acts differently so he should only use them as a vague guidline while tuning his own. not sure exactly what you meant by the last comment there.


that's still inaccurate.. if you were tuned properly and consistently used the same quality gas, it wouldn't matter; the lower octane map is the first safety net. the last comment was a recommendation: if you used my fuel maps i sent to you on any other vehicle besides your own, you do it at your own *risk*. ;)

[XVeloX]

that's still inaccurate.. if you were tuned properly and consistently used the same quality gas, it wouldn't matter; the lower octane map is the first safety net.


That's exactly what i said...my previous tune did not have that first safety net, and it is nice to have that safety net no matter, because let's say you get stranded and have no other choice but to fill up with crappy gas or even 87 octane in some areas. I would either want my safe lo octane map all the time, or have my laptop with me everytime i leave my house. Which would you rather have?



the last comment was a recommendation: if you used my fuel maps i sent to you on any other vehicle besides your own, you do it at your own *risk*. ;)




ya i would leave the timing or knock it down a bit, and make small adjustments to the fuel until you are able to do pulls with no knock. I'll see if i can give a pic of a fuel map, but don't use those numbers as your own, just as a guideline.


;)

[spoolin]

look we're gettin off topic here, what XveloX is sayin is that he'd rather have the LO octane map back to stock for safety measures incase of bad gas and what not. He'd rather have the first "safety net" being there rather than not. He doesnt wanna have to data log and fix the map every single time he fills up on a new tank, figurativley speaking.

[AreSTG]

He doesnt wanna have to data log and fix the map every single time he fills up on a new tank, figurativley speaking.


wow if i'm ever super-duper rich, screw getting a barber so i can have a new haircut everyday. I'm hiring a tuner to come with me everywhere to adjust my car depending on where i get gas

[XVeloX]

He doesnt wanna have to data log and fix the map every single time he fills up on a new tank, figurativley speaking.


wow if i'm ever super-duper rich, screw getting a barber so i can have a new haircut everyday. I'm hiring a tuner to come with me everywhere to adjust my car depending on where i get gas


LOL!!!! That's kinda the basis of the Xede S.M.A.R.T. deal. Supposedly tunes your car as you drive? If not it shouldn't be that hard to create... *nudges Matz* lol Just has to do with optimizing fuel/timing while keeping your knock etc in check. I'm sure some car manufacturer is/has work(ing/ed) on this idea before.

Or you could just be super rich and have a tuner ride around with you and change your tune with his super expensive real-time tuning software lol