GST ECU-based boost control under development.

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

We are developing a ECU-based closed loop boost control for the evos and have been doing some R&D in the last week on my personal EVO 8.

So far the data is great and I am really excited with the results.

One of the biggest problems with the stock boost control solenoid on the EVO is that, even tuned with different pills, the response and spool rate was always behind a good MBC.

With our new ECU-based boost control, we keep all the factory safe-guards but lose all the factory shortcomings mentioned above. Lightning fast spool, even better than a MBC so far in our testing!, fast response that the stock solenoid cannot match and the ability to custom tailor the boost curve with complete control.

The other great benefit of this system is for people that want to run separate 91 octane tunes and race gas tunes. No more having to pop the hood and twist the MBC to up the boost for the race gas tune and hope that you set it right. Now this is fully controlled by the ecu reflash. Reflash your 91 octane tune to your race gas tune and your boost is set already. Reflash back to your 91 octane tune and your boost is reset to your 91 octane tune.

Here is a comparison between a MBC and our new ECU-based boost control:
(Test run is our new boost control, Base Run is MBC)

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/evo_tunes/me/boost_control_020307/gstboost_vs_mbc.jpg

Ignition timing was not changed, AFR was changed to match the MBC tune. (11.5 AFR on 100 octane)

Expect more news soon as we continue to develop this!

:)

[MadEvo]

hmmm... Interesting. Keep us update.

[AreSTG]

wow look at the awsome change in the tq curve :o

[AreSTG]

also, i'm so glad to see this finally going somewhere, i've been asking about it alot. Great way to keep the engine looking stock, and if it works better than the stock system is capable of that's even better

[Evo442]

Interesting stuff - maybe I switched to a mbc too soon!

Out of curiousity, bryan, how stable is the boost with your new setup? Even with error correction turned way down, my boost seemed to fluctuate with the stock boost solenoid.

are you guys using a different boost solenoid?

[Evo442]

Got any pics of the boost curves with the mbc vs GST/EBC? which mbc - hallman pro rx?

[wilson1]

this would be excellent for the majority of us.
Can't wait for more results.

[SJCoruja]

Awesome news and great work! I like my MBC, but would much rather have ECU-controlled boost to keep all the failsafes in place. Keep the news coming! :D

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

Got any pics of the boost curves with the mbc vs GST/EBC? which mbc - hallman pro rx?




Coming. :)

[Matz]

Ah, so is this the "secret sauce" you were referring to earlier?

Man, you car makes a lot of power on 100! You're running the stock turbo, right?

Just wondering what you can do to support a ECUflash / ECU+ setup. I want to limit the amount of times I reflash my car (ok, not like I'm going to be tracking or anything), so what can be done for this? I would guess that there's some middle ground somewhere for the boost settings?

EDIT -- aw f it. I want this. :)

[SpeedElement]

Good Job Bryan! :)

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

Man, you car makes a lot of power on 100! You're running the stock turbo, right?

Yes, still stock 05 turbo. Hasn't been off the car. No porting or anything. Maybe it will blow up soon so I have a excuse to upgrade. ;)



Just wondering what you can do to support a ECUflash / ECU+ setup. I want to limit the amount of times I reflash my car (ok, not like I'm going to be tracking or anything), so what can be done for this?


Currently it is ECU controlled only. I do believe they are working on boost control with the ECU+ though.

[RgistRdShowoffIX]

damn.. i'm hella jealous...

[XVeloX]

damn brayn, That is INCREDIBLE. 20+ hp/tq gain from that setup. I assume the "loss" from the MBC is due to it being a bleeder type? You got me hooked already man. Let me know when this puppy is ready for the public, absolutely outstanding. I realize the difference between 100 and 91 octane, so the gains may not be as substantial, but that graph you have there looks like a IX with the flat torque curve there. PLEASE keep us/me updated, pretty sweet break through!

[whtrice]

Dude..I think your on to something big!!! Nice work man!
Lets both blow-up or turbo's so when can get the "green" turbo... 8)

[TogueMonster]

Secret Sauce FTMFW!

[missred]

Sweet!!!.....Dude i so want one!I get dibs to be the first customer to have it after you get it perfected Bryan. Hahaha fall in line guyz.

[redvolution]

EDIT -- aw f it. I want this. :)


Me too - but won't the ECU in closed-loop mode have to relearn the different fuel?

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

EDIT -- aw f it. I want this. :)


Me too - but won't the ECU in closed-loop mode have to relearn the different fuel?


ECU will still work the same as always as far as fueling is concerned. Open Loop at WOT (off the fuel map) and Closed Loop at cruise, idle, etc (off the front 02 sensor feedback).

Think of the boost control as exactly like stock but better. ;)

[missred]

EDIT -- aw f it.Â* I want this.Â* :)


Me too - but won't the ECU in closed-loop mode have to relearn the different fuel?


ECU will still work the same as always as far as fueling is concerned. Open Loop at WOT (off the fuel map) and Closed Loop at cruise, idle, etc (off the front 02 sensor feedback).

Think of the boost control as exactly like stock but better. ;)


Im first in line Matz :lol:

[SouthernCrane]

nice work :cool: Time for another re-tune i guess :-)

[ST]

ea - did you have back to back runs data w/ and w/o your new ecu controlled boost, especially the boost profiles? baseline data from 2 months ago can be misleading..

[tirbolag9]

hot dam! i volunteer my car for comparison with the works bcs and gst's system :)

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

ea - did you have back to back runs data w/ and w/o your new ecu controlled boost, especially the boost profiles? baseline data from 2 months ago can be misleading..


Yes we will once we get everything ironed out with it. I agree, this chart isn't the best study and isn't really meant to be, just a teaser. ;) I was going to swap the MBC back on yesterday but I threw my car on the dyno between customers so I didn't have much time.

We will have a full case study with boost curve overlays, etc etc in due time. ;) There will be no smoke and mirrors here, you can quote me on that.

[ST]

sounds good...you folks are finally catching up...i need to make more power! ;)

[Matz]

Im first in line Matz :lol:


Haha, okay, I'm fine being next in line. I still have lots of other stuff to get on the car first. ;)

1. missred
2. Matz

:lol:

[Positron]

Im first in line Matz :lol:


Haha, okay, I'm fine being next in line. I still have lots of other stuff to get on the car first. ;)

1. missred
2. Matz

:lol:


Same here, I neeed to stack up on mods.

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

sounds good...you folks are finally catching up...i need to make more power! ;)


Got lots of headroom my friend. The car comes off the dyno and sees the track for hours in 95F+ to 50F temperatures and asphalt and rain and all that real-world stuff so it's a medium sizzle tune, and not even a Evo 9. ;)

I've actually been meaning to make a "Defcon 4, set to kill, this one goes to 11" tune on the car and see what it could really do.

But alas, this isn't really what this thread is about.

[EFIxMR]

The hp war continues!

[MadEvo]

Im first in line Matz :lol:


Haha, okay, I'm fine being next in line. I still have lots of other stuff to get on the car first. ;)

1. missred
2. Matz

:lol:


Hey, I was the first one to respond to Bryan's post :lol:
Fine.. I'll take whatever is next.

[UCB]

I'm glad others are catching and useing ECU-controlled boost :D

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

I'm glad others are catching and useing ECU-controlled boost :D


With a twist. ;)

[bricel24]

can't wait to get that tune! :D

[ST]

Got lots of headroom my friend. The car comes off the dyno and sees the track for hours in 95F+ to 50F temperatures and asphalt and rain and all that real-world stuff so it's a medium sizzle tune, and not even a Evo 9. ;)

I've actually been meaning to make a "Defcon 4, set to kill, this one goes to 11" tune on the car and see what it could really do.

But alas, this isn't really what this thread is about.


medium size tune eh? what boost are you running at again? :p

you'll find out more about the next barriers shortly...been there, done that...but this isn't what this thread is about....

ps grossman sucks arse.

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

medium size tune eh? what boost are you running at again? :p

you'll find out more about the next barriers shortly...been there, done that...but this isn't what this thread is about....


Barriers? You act like I just started with 4G63's less than a year ago like somebody here. ;)

24.4psi peak according to the log. Stock turbo, stock un-ported manifold, stock un-ported 02 housing, stock UICP and couplers. 2.75" DP. None of the shiny tubular stuff you seem to like ;)

So far, 340whp, all day, every day with a stock engine bay:

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/albums/evo_06_24_06/evo062406_06sm.jpg

and somebody elses 350whp, all day, every day: ;)

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g319/stranx44/IMG_0948.jpg

[lqdchkn]

Ah, so is this the "secret sauce" you were referring to earlier?


"Secret Sauce" no, no, can't be. This is Care Bear tooning. It must be the "Care Bear Stare".

[ST]

Barriers? You act like I just started with 4G63's less than a year ago like somebody here. ;)



and yet you just got to 340whp and started using ecu boost control...lol

in fact, there is no concrete correlation between my eip 350whp and your md 340whp readings....as evident by increvoviii's lower eip dyno numbers (and correlating that with his run at gst facilities earlier). but we'll put this to the test soon enough :p

glad to see care bear tuning is finally out of the power puff stage...haha

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

in fact, there is no concrete correlation between my eip 350whp and your md 340whp readings....as evident by increvoviii's lower eip dyno numbers (and correlating that with his run at gst facilities earlier).


That's funny, everyone was comparing our dynos as the same until one person dynoed lower between the two even though EIP themselves said the car had bad gas. Interesting. Yet Andy dynoed on both awhile back within a couple days, if not the same day and they where exactly the same. That's interesting too.

If you would have not been busy buffing your car out all day for it to sit at a parking garage show we could have seen what your car would have made on the GST dyno. ;)

I also didn't "just start" using ECU-based boost control either. I had used it when ECUflash first came out with medicore results because of the stock solenoid. Now we have something better, so now I am using it. :)

[EV0LL]

Someone needs to stick to dyno racing supraz...

[ST]

That's funny, everyone was comparing our dynos as the same until one person dynoed lower between the two even though EIP themselves said the car had bad gas. Interesting. Yet Andy dynoed on both awhile back withing a couple days, if not the same day and they where exactly the same. That's interesting too.

If you would have not been busy buffing your car out all day for it to sit at a parking garage show we could have seen what your car would have made on the GST dyno. ;)


lol, are you really trying to diss all the evo members that went to J's? O.o But in actuality i buffed my car after parking at J's since it is one of my duties of being sponsored. And I would of loved to make it to the gst dyno day, but unfortunatley i was helping a friend with his new turbo installation throughout the night. But as I said, this issue will be put to rest soon enough...

again...welcome to the Majors...glad to see some company finally! Maybe I'll keep my car after all lol....

[XVeloX]

geez... both cars are awesome for absolutely different reasons, both have different uses and different goals.

EA, awesome work on the development with the new technology, I never saw a stock BCS system spool like an MBC, now you have something that even kills the MBC, sweet! Should do wonders at the track!

ST, Car looks awesome, makin lots of power, looks like a cool show car, woulda been cool to see how the car did at the GST meet, glad you have a way of boost control you like!

Sounds like little boys comparing....well apples and oranges? lol 8)

[EV0LL]

welcome to the Majors...glad to see some company finally! Maybe I'll keep my car after all lol....

"welcome to the majors" eh?? Homeboy is making like 97% of the HP you are with like 25% of the mods, yet your telling him "Welcome to the majors"?? :?

Puhleeze...and btw, has your 350hp dyno queen even seen a racetrack?? (and no, street ricing to an import show doesn't count son). 8)

[missred]

CareBear Tune FTW!!!!!

[EFIxMR]

As someone who has used both the EIP dyno and the GST dyno, as well as my own I have this to say about the subject about how they read.

The three dynos read extremely close.

-In one instance, I dynoed my own EVO8 when it was on the stock turbo and stock ECU at EIP and then went to GS (now GST) on the same tank of gas, and the result was it made a little less hp at GS.

-Drifter8 on racegas came by my shop and got a baseline run on our DynoDynamics soon after his tune at GST and made a little less on our DynoDynamics.

-I took my stand alone ECU'd GT30R EVO8 that made 369 on my dyno to the GST dynoday, and on the same day only made 366.

-Devin's 03' GSR made 285 at EIP and 285 on our DynoDynamics.

The difference has never been large enough and really has gone both ways between the various dynos. That leads me to believe that the difference is really small.

Additionally, the 3 dynos do load up the car differently from my experience, but all produce good tunes. Also, the stock ECU can be very finicky and the consistency of the car can vary.

I think the real comparison would be to take our cars to the drag strip and see how they trap and their ET's.

[bricel24]

CareBear Tune FTW!!!!!


+1

[ST]

blah blah Homeboy is making like 97% of the HP you are with like 25% of the mods blah blah


o really?! lol

who r u again? k thx

[bricel24]

man. thread-jacking ftl

[XVeloX]

man. thread-jacking ftl


no doubt... had to stir up some sh*t :?

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

My apologies to everyone that this turned into a "I have a biggrz NUmberZ than youZ so I am da FasTr" thread.

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/misc/da_fastr_fuelmap2.JPG

More information about the system will be out in the next couple weeks once we have had more time to try it out on other cars, different fuels, etc etc

[XVeloX]

More information about the system will be out in the next couple weeks once we have had more time to try it out on other cars, different fuels, etc etc


well uh if you uhm by some chance might well need any test cars i happen to have some extra time on my hands here at school and all... :P

[EV0LL]

blah blah Homeboy is making like 97% of the HP you are with like 25% of the mods blah blah


o really?! lol

who r u again? k thx


Rilly, is that the best you can come up with? I thought you were in the majors...

No? kthxgbye!

[bricel24]

More information about the system will be out in the next couple weeks once we have had more time to try it out on other cars, different fuels, etc etc


well uh if you uhm by some chance might well need any test cars i happen to have some extra time on my hands here at school and all... :P


+!1. btw B, whenever you are free again man.... :D

[missred]

More information about the system will be out in the next couple weeks once we have had more time to try it out on other cars, different fuels, etc etc


well uh if you uhm by some chance might well need any test cars i happen to have some extra time on my hands here at school and all... :P


+!1. btw B, whenever you are free again man.... :D


+3

[MadEvo]

My apologies to everyone that this turned into a "I have a biggrz NUmberZ than youZ so I am da FasTr" thread.

More information about the system will be out in the next couple weeks once we have had more time to try it out on other cars, different fuels, etc etc


Just keep us update. Interested in results. ;)

[Matz]

you'll find out more about the next barriers shortly...been there, done that...but this isn't what this thread is about....


Exactly, let's try to stay on topic here, instead of shitting on Bryan's thread. If you want to update everyone on the barriers, then use this thread.

http://www.norcalevo.net/forum/index.php/topic,14391.0.html

[ST]

you'll find out more about the next barriers shortly...been there, done that...but this isn't what this thread is about....


Exactly, let's try to stay on topic here, instead of shitting on Bryan's thread. If you want to update everyone on the barriers, then use this thread.

http://www.norcalevo.net/forum/index.php/topic,14391.0.html


lol....you guys need to chill and get off his nutz. There's nothing wrong with a little friendly competition as you note by this exchange of words:





sounds good...you folks are finally catching up...i need to make more power! ;)


Got lots of headroom my friend. The car comes off the dyno and sees the track for hours in 95F+ to 50F temperatures and asphalt and rain and all that real-world stuff so it's a medium sizzle tune, and not even a Evo 9. ;)

I've actually been meaning to make a "Defcon 4, set to kill, this one goes to 11" tune on the car and see what it could really do.



And since ol' "i have tuned 4g63 for 20 years" EA is somewhat absent, I want to have some fun as well! ;) But honestly, I applaud B-GST for his endeavor, and hope my tenure with the evo is long enough so i can witness GST and SE breaking out. It's a good time to be an Evo owner!

[UCB]

Yeah..I think some of you guys are taking STs jabs a bit to seriously. He's not here to thread crap, think of it more as bench banter during hockey game :P

A little friendly competition never hurts anyone, only makes both parties better 8). The end result of this would just be better tunes for the entire evo community

[turboevo8]

Excellent numbers Bryan. Hopefully when I get my cams in, we can get some simular numbers since I don't run 100 octane I know it won't be that close. We'll see in a week or so.

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

Did some 1st through 4th pulls the other night. Here is a log of one.

Don't mind the dip/spike in 3rd gear. I hit a bump and all 4 tires spun. :shock: 8) 111mph at 7680rpm in 4th comes up really quick, let me tell ya.

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/evo_tunes/me/boost_control_020307/full_pull_lrg.gif

[turboevo8]

Lots of timing you running there buddy. You must still be on 100 octane!? The boost is holding up well at a "Load Calc" of 190-200! Excellent work. I think I will want to hook up my stock boost controller after seeing that. Are you ready to release it soon?

[XVeloX]

Lots of timing you running there buddy. You must still be on 100 octane!? The boost is holding up well at a "Load Calc" of 190-200! Excellent work. I think I will want to hook up my stock boost controller after seeing that. Are you ready to release it soon?


isn't that load calc on stock inj scaling? i would think you would be around 250ish (multiply values by 636/513)... timing is nuts though, like 21 at 7k? geez... freakin impressive. No wheel spin in 1st!?!?!

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

Lots of timing you running there buddy. You must still be on 100 octane!? The boost is holding up well at a "Load Calc" of 190-200! Excellent work. I think I will want to hook up my stock boost controller after seeing that. Are you ready to release it soon?




isn't that load calc on stock inj scaling? i would think you would be around 250ish (multiply values by 636/513)... timing is nuts though, like 21 at 7k? geez... freakin impressive. No wheel spin in 1st!?!?!


Yea the load calc is totally off since I run 720cc. I never really use load calc to pin point where I am on the map anyway so I usually don't change it to suit my car since I tune more cars with stock injectors. You can still see how the load curves are either way though.

Timing is kind of an illusion on that log since the car is never really below 6,000 rpm except for 1st where I did a roll on to WOT at about 14mph.

Tires where a bit warmed up by the time I did this log so the R-compounds where doing their job. ;)

[AreSTG]

i thought u have the GM map sensor installed... no log of boost?

[Matz]

i thought u have the GM map sensor installed... no log of boost?


Hehe... I thought the same thing, but he told me it's gathering dust somewhere.

[AreSTG]

mine too... :(

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

no log of boost?


Soon. ;)

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

Some more data:

I can run stock boost to maxed out stock turbo with this system. With 26psi, I am using 75% wastegate duty cycle settings in the ECU @ 3500rpm. With 24psi, 65-68% WGDC.

On 9's, 22psi, 69% WGDC. 24psi, 72% WGDC.

Lots of headroom still. This is with NO boost spikes at all. I can run 100% WGDC up to within about 300 RPM of my boost target and still no spike. That helps spool and transitional response tremendusly.

This system can also run full boost in 1st and 2nd gears with no spikes, something I have yet to see the stock system do with any kinda of respectable spool. It actually can be made to spool so fast and hard in the lower gears that I need to actually lower it because I fear I will break something. ;)

Here is a EVO 9 with cosworth cams and a HFC, the green plot is boost . This was a totally custom tailored boost curve for this car. Since it had a HFC, it got grumpy if we held higher boost past 6,000 so we gradually tapered it to 7400 rpm but where still able to make it hold well until then, no sudden drops or dips.

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/evo_tunes/whtrice/whtrice_91octane_boostafr.jpg

Here is a factory boost system on another EVO 9 with the solenoid restrictor removed, again green is the boost plot:

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/evo_tunes/james_evo9_020307/dyno_afr_boost.jpg

A different restrictor size on the compressor housing side will help a bit with fine tuning that curve on the stock system, but you have to source those pills and make sure you don't go too small or too large. We will have a comparison with that soon as well.

Here is a EVO 9 with a MBC, notice the spike:

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/evo_tunes/me/021907/ed_mbc_boost_log.jpg

[whtrice]

Hmmm...When you say there is more head room for the 9 whats your estimation if this customer say went with a rally cat instead of a HFC.

Some more data:

I can run stock boost to maxed out stock turbo with this system. With 26psi, I am using 75% wastegate duty cycle settings in the ECU @ 3500rpm. With 24psi, 65-68% WGDC.

On 9's, 22psi, 69% WGDC. 24psi, 72% WGDC.

Lots of headroom still. This is with NO boost spikes at all. I can run 100% WGDC up to within about 300 RPM of my boost target and still no spike. That helps spool and transitional response tremendusly.

This system can also run full boost in 1st and 2nd gears with no spikes, something I have yet to see the stock system do with any kinda of respectable spool. It actually can be made to spool so fast and hard in the lower gears that I need to actually lower it because I fear I will break something. ;)

Here is a EVO 9 with cosworth cams and a HFC, the green plot is boost . This was a totally custom tailored boost curve for this car. Since it had a HFC, it got grumpy if we held higher boost past 6,000 so we gradually tapered it to 7400 rpm but where still able to make it hold well until then, no sudden drops or dips.

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/evo_tunes/whtrice/whtrice_91octane_boostafr.jpg

Here is a factory boost system on another EVO 9 with the solenoid restrictor removed, again green is the boost plot:

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/evo_tunes/james_evo9_020307/dyno_afr_boost.jpg

A different restrictor size on the compressor housing side will help a bit with fine tuning that curve on the stock system, but you have to source those pills and make sure you don't go too small or too large. We will have a comparison with that soon as well.

Here is a EVO 9 with a MBC, notice the spike:

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/evo_tunes/me/021907/ed_mbc_boost_log.jpg

[byt]

Wow nice that does look like it holds better! Maybe I should try a different solenoid as the stock system isn't quite meeting my expectations at the moment...

You think something like the Perrin Boost Solenoid would help?

http://www.perrinperformance.com/products/show/64/Boost-Control-Solenoid?category=37&model=3

[UCB]

I think it might help 8)

I know plenty of suby tuners used them with great success, it should splice right in and function as the stock BCS would

[XVeloX]

hmmm very interesting. It would be an interesting piece to pick up to compare to stock... and even the cb solenoid 8).

[Seranin]

i assume an avc-r would accomplish the same thing except with more complexity and cost?

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

i assume an avc-r would accomplish the same thing except with more complexity and cost?


yes, I believe so. Derek and I where talking about that the other day. The one nice thing about having a EBC over the ecu-based boost control is that you can change boost on the fly in the car, without a laptop and reflashing the ecu. However it costs much more itself.



You think something like the Perrin Boost Solenoid would help?


Yes it would help. I would wait a little while before purchasing the Perrin solenoid however. ;)



Hmmm...When you say there is more head room for the 9 whats your estimation if this customer say went with a rally cat instead of a HFC.


Both 8's and 9's have close to the same headroom with the stock turbos. More flow (like from a test pipe) could create more boost so the actual WGDC would have to be lowered, not raised. :) 100% WGDC means the ecu is trying to keep the wastegate flapper totally closed so all the exhaust flow is being used to spin the turbine. Number between 100% and 0% are regulating the flapper.

[byt]

You think something like the Perrin Boost Solenoid would help?


Yes it would help. I would wait a little while before purchasing the Perrin solenoid however. ;)



Eh? ETA! :D

[EvoKid]

Byran, aren't you using the perrin solenoid??

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

Byran, aren't you using the perrin solenoid??


Nope. :)

It's actually not a big secret. The real big deal is figuring out how everything works together.

[EvoKid]

Byran, aren't you using the perrin solenoid??


Nope. :)

It's actually not a big secret. The real big deal is figuring out how everything works together.


Well, If it not a big secret, can you tell my what if any hardwear is changed??

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

Byran, aren't you using the perrin solenoid??


Nope. :)

It's actually not a big secret. The real big deal is figuring out how everything works together.


Well, If it not a big secret, can you tell my what if any hardwear is changed??


The solenoid and the lines.

[EvoKid]

See, i knew you were using a new solenoid. Now i just got to figure out which one....ha ha

[UCB]

Likely the GM unit or perhaps another. I know ED of EQ tuning uses some version of a 3-port solenoid, Prodrive makes one as well

[wzcx]

Bryan, is this going to be an option on my car? :) Sorry I'm unavailable all the time, I'm sick as a dog and home today.

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

See, i knew you were using a new solenoid. Now i just got to figure out which one....ha ha


Don't kill yourself over finding out what it is, you will know soon enough. Like I said, no smoke and mirrors here... ;)

[AreSTG]

See, i knew you were using a new solenoid. Now i just got to figure out which one....ha ha


Don't kill yourself over finding out what it is, you will know soon enough. Like I said, no smoke and mirrors here... ;)


that's what i hear :)

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

More data,

This is using a factory stock boost solenoid and lines, a custom sized restrictor pill on the compressor side to replace the factory restrictor pill, no pill on the solenoid side.

Was able to make a little more boost and create a little more control with this. Still doesn't hold as much up top but that could be because the pill needs to be even smaller.

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/evo_tunes/me/021907/stock_solenoid_with_upgraded_pill.jpg

Compare to these graphs I posted earlier in this thread:

http://www.norcalevo.net/forum/index.php/topic,15943.msg225099.html#msg225099

[AreSTG]

See, i knew you were using a new solenoid. Now i just got to figure out which one....ha ha


he replaced the stock solenoid with a pandora's box

[whtrice]

Well it appears that "dial a pill" is a more tedious way to set up since you have to experiment and get the right size pill aperture for the boost response you want. Solenoid can be controlled by duty cycle and ECU regulation.

More data,

This is using a factory stock boost solenoid and lines, a custom sized restricter pill on the compressor side to replace the factory restrict or pill, no pill on the solenoid side.

Was able to make a little more boost and create a little more control with this. Still doesn't hold as much up top but that could be because the pill needs to be even smaller.

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/evo_tunes/me/021907/stock_solenoid_with_upgraded_pill.jpg

Compare to these graphs I posted earlier in this thread:

http://www.norcalevo.net/forum/index.php/topic,15943.msg225099.html#msg225099

[EvoKid]

any new info??

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

any new info??


Still working out some kinks and development. Also waiting on some plug and play connectors.

So far it's pretty solid on the development car. (mine)

[Steiner]

Bryan, do you expect an aftermarket turbo like...say...ahem...a certain 20G to create any significant challenges when it comes to controlling boost with the ECU? It sounds like you've pretty much perfected the ECU boost control thing on the stock snail (91 & 100 octane IIRC) but I'm wondering what, if any, little surprises might throw off the ECU (as it relates to boost control) once you introduce another 10lbs-12lbs per minute of airflow to the setup.

[turbotiger]

Must be the cams that's causing less boost at the high end than my car.
You tuned my boost curve really well. Even stays at 19psi at 7000 rpms.

http://www.norcalevo.net/forum/index.php/topic,15943.75.html

[Steiner]

Any update on the testing Bryan? It sounds like a lot of the cars you've been tuning are now running the OEM BCS with a less restrictive pill?

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

Any update on the testing Bryan? It sounds like a lot of the cars you've been tuning are now running the OEM BCS with a less restrictive pill?


I'm trying out a couple different things to give people some more options. Stay tuned. :)

[GroundHog]

how about on a IX?

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

how about on a IX?


Yup, 8 and 9. :)

[atlvalet]

Would this work with a piggyback unit like an XEDE?

[Steiner]

Thanks Bryan. I can't speak for the rest of the class, but more than anything I like this route because it would enable me to jump between my 100 octane and my 91 octane map without messing with the MBC.

[Matz]

Thanks Bryan. I can't speak for the rest of the class, but more than anything I like this route because it would enable me to jump between my 100 octane and my 91 octane map without messing with the MBC.


I'm with you there. But the only thing I wonder about is using ECU+ for the 100 octane map over a 91 octane ECUFlash map. If we're forced to reflash for each type, I might end up staying with 91 or always making a mixture of 91 and 100.

[dohcvtec]

Thanks Bryan. I can't speak for the rest of the class, but more than anything I like this route because it would enable me to jump between my 100 octane and my 91 octane map without messing with the MBC.


I'm with you there. But the only thing I wonder about is using ECU+ for the 100 octane map over a 91 octane ECUFlash map. If we're forced to reflash for each type, I might end up staying with 91 or always making a mixture of 91 and 100.


Because reflashing takes all but a few minutes? lol

[ST]

i'd still like to see a modified bcs vs. mbc vs. this gm 3 port boost graph, back to back to back...

[Matz]

Because reflashing takes all but a few minutes? lol


No, because you can only reliably reflash 100 times. If you read the SH2 specifications, you'll realize that this is a real limit and not something to be taken lightly.

http://www.initialdproject.com/evo8/images/ecu_flash_maximum.jpg

[Matz]

i'd still like to see a modified bcs vs. mbc vs. this gm 3 port boost graph, back to back to back...


My car is set up to do this pretty easily now. I don't have the special mod, but I've rewired my Evo to make it simple. I'll leave it up to Bryan to decide if he wants to use it for comparison reasons.

[dohcvtec]

Because reflashing takes all but a few minutes? lol


No, because you can only reliably reflash 100 times. If you read the SH2 specifications, you'll realize that this is a real limit and not something to be taken lightly.

wow, i had no idea... does the rom get worn out somehow?

[Matz]

Because reflashing takes all but a few minutes? lol


No, because you can only reliably reflash 100 times. If you read the SH2 specifications, you'll realize that this is a real limit and not something to be taken lightly.

wow, i had no idea... does the rom get worn out somehow?


All flash has a life expectancy. Most non-retarded flash devices can be reprogrammed tens of thousands, to millions of times. I'm sure Mitsu just figured it wasn't a big deal, so they use the onboard flash in the SH2. Eventually, when you program with the cable, you'll get verification errors, so you just have to keep reprogramming over and over again until everything verifies correctly. I obviously haven't had personal experience with this yet, but it's the main reason why I have two ECUs.

[vtluu]

No, because you can only reliably reflash 100 times. If you read the SH2 specifications, you'll realize that this is a real limit and not something to be taken lightly.

Is the SH2 what's in the ECU+ or in the OEM ECU? Sorry I haven't been following this thread so am a bit confused on that point.

100 times for the OEM ECU would be worrying, since each time you adjust a map and flash it to do a test pull counts as one reflash. Has anybody here or on EvoM run into that limit?

[Steiner]

Thanks Bryan. I can't speak for the rest of the class, but more than anything I like this route because it would enable me to jump between my 100 octane and my 91 octane map without messing with the MBC.


I'm with you there. But the only thing I wonder about is using ECU+ for the 100 octane map over a 91 octane ECUFlash map. If we're forced to reflash for each type, I might end up staying with 91 or always making a mixture of 91 and 100.
Educate me please. :)

Why are you using different flashing software for different maps? I'm using EcuFlash for both my 100 octane and 91 octane maps. I thought that was pretty much the norm?

[SJCoruja]

Why are you using different flashing software for different maps? I'm using EcuFlash for both my 100 octane and 91 octane maps. I thought that was pretty much the norm?



ECU+ is a piggyback. Some of us use it for various maps on top of a flashed ECU.

[Steiner]

Why are you using different flashing software for different maps? I'm using EcuFlash for both my 100 octane and 91 octane maps. I thought that was pretty much the norm?



ECU+ is a piggyback. Some of us use it for various maps on top of a flashed ECU.
Is there a performance advantage or does ECU+ just yield more retrievable data for troubleshooting?

[Matz]

Sorry everyone, I don't want to muddle the conversation regarding Bryan's efforts with the BCS, so I'll try to be quick here:

The OEM ECU uses a Hitachi SH2. The ECU+ uses an Atmel AVR and some kind of DSP. The SH2 has a 100 cycle flash limit, and yes that means you'll have problems once you get to your 100th flash. Yes, people on evom have had this problem already.

My car has the ECU+ in it. I am getting an ECUFlash tune from Bryan tomorrow, and that will be for 91 octane. To combat the flash limit, I was hoping to get a 100 octane tune eventually with the ECU+, which has about 100x the flash life. But my main question was whether or not this new fancy way of controlling boost will work properly if the ECU+ is in charge of altering fuel and timing.

[Matz]

Why are you using different flashing software for different maps? I'm using EcuFlash for both my 100 octane and 91 octane maps. I thought that was pretty much the norm?



ECU+ is a piggyback. Some of us use it for various maps on top of a flashed ECU.
Is there a performance advantage or does ECU+ just yield more retrievable data for troubleshooting?


Before ECUFlash, it was the best for datalogging IMO. Now that there are all of these sweet tools for the Tactrix cable, the performance advantage is tough to assess. I honestly don't know. The datalogging rate is still way better on the ECU+, I think, but if tuners can work with the Tactrix-compatible tools, it's an easier and way more cost-effective solution.

[XVeloX]

i have heard there is a limit, but that it was well over 100, even over 1000 reflashes, i must be getting close :shock: :(

how would you get a second ECU to run? isn't it somewhat matched with the key to your ignition or can you change the immobilizer to make it run?

on topic: so is it the GM solenoid? i see plenty of subarus that are using it now (with great results - 300-400 RPM quicker spool) and read about a handful of other turbo cars running them. Also, do you use the 10ohm resistor in it?

[atlvalet]

I'll ask again. Can this boost fix (secret sauce) be used with a piggyback like the XEDE or ECU+?

[vtluu]

how would you get a second ECU to run? isn't it somewhat matched with the key to your ignition or can you change the immobilizer to make it run?

I got an '05 ECU for my car, had Veracom key it to the immobilizer. It worked, but after that my original ECU no longer worked, even after I matched the immobilizer key on the ECU to what was in my '05 ECU.

[Matz]

i have heard there is a limit, but that it was well over 100, even over 1000 reflashes, i must be getting close :shock: :(


I trust that the manufacturer specs the absolute worst case limit. However, the fact that it's in the spec sheet makes me not want to test it. :)

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

I've probably flashed my ROM over 300 times. Maybe double that.

Each flash is not a full reflash of the entire rom, only the bits that have changed.

RAM tuning is coming soon also. :)

To everybody else's questions, I will post responses later, I am in a editing room all day today.

[Matz]

Each flash is not a full reflash of the entire rom, only the bits that have changed.


That is true, I had forgotten to add that to my post. However, many people are likely modifying the same general region of the maps, right?

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

I'll ask again. Can this boost fix (secret sauce) be used with a piggyback like the XEDE or ECU+?


Depends on the hardware and if the piggyback controls boost through Wastegate Duty Cycle (most likely).

ECU+ does not have boost control yet.

[Stormtrooper]

Each flash is not a full reflash of the entire rom, only the bits that have changed.




I think it depends on the functionality of the controller in this system.Â* There is usually some sort of wear leveling technology which equals the load rewritten/erased to the storage.Â* The overall endurance would then also depend on the percentage of flash storage used versus unused....

This must be a basic EEPROM type or else endurance wouldn't be quoted so low.Â* Usually this type of storage has a minimum and maximum rating.Â* So in this case, if they're quoting 100 , then maximum is probably something like 1000 so it'll be somewhere in between when you start to see blocks start to fail.Â* If there's some sort of ECC and bad block management then this would be increased even more.... so 300+ times is entirely possible.

I don't know if this is something you exactly want to 'run to the max.' I wonder what happens if you have a corrupt map!

[Matz]

It would be interesting to see if they've got write balancing s/w in the controller. I wish I could read the disassembly and identify those parts... maybe in time. The embedded processors we use at work have that in their flash libraries, but it's all smoke and mirrors to me. :)

Ok, let's get back on topic. Who's getting some sauce next? ;)

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

I don't know if this is something you exactly want to 'run to the max.' I wonder what happens if you have a corrupt map!



Cheney comes out of my glovebox?

http://www.galapagosartspace.com/event%20pictures/dickcheney.jpg

[RenoEvoIX]

any updates?

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

any updates?


Yes. The upgraded Solenoid ecu-based boost control is available now. Upgraded 'pill' with stock solenoid will be avail soon.


However, I am still getting all the charts together to do an official announcement

[ApexVIII]

any updates?


Yes. The upgraded Solenoid ecu-based boost control is available now. Upgraded 'pill' with stock solenoid will be avail soon.


However, I am still getting all the charts together to do an official announcement


nice any idea how much it will cost to use?

[turboevo8]

By any chance have you tried this on a External wastegate such as an Tial 44mm?

[spoolin]

just a thumbs up to gst, i did my own "gst ecu-controlled boost" by buying the right parts and getting a little help from some certain members.. and it is awesome!!! the control you have over what boost does over every rpm is unbelievable. Im not affliated with gst, and im not trying to sell their product... im just giving them a thumbs up for a awesome method for boost control! :D

[RenoEvoIX]

So whats the best way to go? Change the solenoid or upgrade the pill and keep the stock solenoid?

[Steiner]

Both. Go with a 3 prong solenoid and a custom pill.

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

Both. Go with a 3 prong solenoid and a custom pill.


You don't need any pills with a 3-port solenoid.

From what I have seen:

3-port solenoid:

Pros:
1. Quicker response
2. No pills needed, straight vac hose
3. Quicker spool

Cons:

1. Isn't stock
2. Have to cut and tap some wires
3. Little louder than stock sometimes (like a EBC)

Upgraded boost hose pill with stock solenoid

Pros:

1. Stealthy stock
2. No cutting needed

Cons:

1. Not as accurate
2. Slightly slower response
3. Slightly slower spool

That is what I have found so far. We offer both in our tunes in addition to EBC's and MBC's so it's more up to what the end-user is looking for.

[XVeloX]

with 3 port solenoid, a pill is unnecessary. The solenoid can be found for about $40 shipped, and obviously stock isn't too hard. Up to the user mostly, but for the performance/price it's not a bad buy.

EDIT: ^ damnit...

[XVeloX]

3-port solenoid:
Cons:

1. Isn't stock
2. Have to cut and tap some wires
3. Little louder than stock sometimes (like a EBC)



bah it looks like it could be a stock part! :wink: tapping isn't too hard, wrap in wire loom and it looks dead stock. Is it really louder? I guess spoolin's RSR is too loud to hear anything else anyways :P

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

bah it looks like it could be a stock part! :wink: tapping isn't too hard, wrap in wire loom and it looks dead stock. Is it really louder? I guess spoolin's RSR is too loud to hear anything else anyways :P


yea agreed but some people cringe about cut and/or tapped OEM harness lines, etc so it's good to people give options imho.

Also some people are still under warranty or actually care about their warranty so the pill mod is much much better for those type of people.

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

oops double post ftl

[lqdchkn]

Both. Go with a 3 prong solenoid and a custom pill.


You don't need any pills with a 3-port solenoid.

From what I have seen:

3-port solenoid:

Pros:
1. Quicker response
2. No pills needed, straight vac hose
3. Quicker spool

Cons:

1. Isn't stock
2. Have to cut and tap some wires
3. Little louder than stock sometimes (like a EBC)

Upgraded boost hose pill with stock solenoid

Pros:

1. Stealthy stock
2. No cutting needed

Cons:

1. Not as accurate
2. Slightly slower response
3. Slightly slower spool

That is what I have found so far. We offer both in our tunes in addition to EBC's and MBC's so it's more up to what the end-user is looking for.


just to add cost if ne1 cares.

GM stuff i think was quoted above at about 40 bucks

parts to make a modified pill 5 bucks. ;)

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

nice any idea how much it will cost to use?


We offer the 3-port solenoid with tunes for an additional $100 installed.

I am still setting pricing on the upgraded pill.

[ST]

3port solenoid:

Got it from Rock Auto (http://www.rockauto.com)
GM 3 port: $12.69. AC Delco part number 214-474.
GM pigtails for $15.64. AC Delco part number PT 374.

YOu can also get from GM dealership:

GM boost solenoid, GM Part # 1997152
Pigtails, GM Part # 12102747

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

You can also get them from gmpartsdirect.com

http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/

If people want to source and install everything themselves, that is fine also. Would save them labor fees. :)

Just make sure everything works correctly before the dyno tune. :)

If people do want to source and install them themselves before tunes, you have to make sure you do not go WOT or you will severely overboost the car. I can supply a map to make sure you do not overboost before coming in for a tune if you don't trust your right foot. :)

All this info is available online for both these boost methods. We are providing the service. We also provided the R&D to make sure the 3-port worked correctly on EVO's.

[XVeloX]

3port solenoid:

Got it from Rock Auto (http://www.rockauto.com)
GM 3 port: $12.69. AC Delco part number 214-474.
GM pigtails for $15.64. AC Delco part number PT 374.

YOu can also get from GM dealership:

GM boost solenoid, GM Part # 1997152
Pigtails, GM Part # 12102747



hmmm from rockauto.com:

http://www.box.net/index.php?rm=box_download_shared_file&file_id=f_54004384&shared_name=8l1fm1yeh8



just to add cost if ne1 cares.

GM stuff i think was quoted above at about 40 bucks

parts to make a modified pill 5 bucks. ;)


but compared to MBCs and EBCs it's a steal :). imho its something you have to try to believe. Obviously only the dealer would know the 3-port isn't stock (cops wouldn't be able to tell...). So I think it is a great mod that has been around for ages, but never utilized by much of the evo community. There are other solenoids that do the same thing (i think the perrin is 3 port?) but cost 2+ times the price.

I would spend $40 over $5 knowing that boost control is one of the most important ingredients to a tune. Fuel and timing depend on boost...

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

With shipping it's about $35 or so + vac lines + labor + tax. ;)

And yes for the price it's great!

[ST]

You can search for a discount code on the internet saves you extra $$ from Rockauto.com (forgot what it was, friend found it when he bought his).

$5 pill option still provides all the manipulation you would get with the 3port...just different way of doing things utilizing the same routines/commands...+ it would look 100% stock to a dealer..

[XVeloX]

$5 pill option still provides all the manipulation you would get with the 3port...just different way of doing things utilizing the same routines/commands...+ it would look 100% stock to a dealer..


true for the most part. I guess since i havent had a warranty for over a year i don't think about what the hell a dealer thinks :P

[ST]

true for the most part. I guess since i havent had a warranty for over a year i don't think about what the hell a dealer thinks :P


i know what you mean, and my car is only like 9 months old lol

[Matz]

Installed the 10ohm resistor today... we'll see if anything weird happens since it was tuned without the resistor. However, my guess is that the solenoid will switch fast enough despite the extra load. I miss the clean resistorless look... I should have put it on the ECU side instead. :(

[XVeloX]

Installed the 10ohm resistor today... we'll see if anything weird happens since it was tuned without the resistor. However, my guess is that the solenoid will switch fast enough despite the extra load. I miss the clean resistorless look... I should have put it on the ECU side instead. :(


cool, ya turns out spoolin and i couldn't find a 10ohm 1W resistor at radio shack, all they had was 10ohm 10W which was about as big as a full finger. Ordered (lame) a couple from digikey and they are a normal lookin resistor. Didn't have any problems (that i know of yet) since wiring it in. We felt the solenoid after a long drive w/o the resistor and it didn't feel hot at all. Oh well better safe than sorry i guess...

[Matz]

cool, ya turns out spoolin and i couldn't find a 10ohm 1W resistor at radio shack, all they had was 10ohm 10W which was about as big as a full finger. Ordered (lame) a couple from digikey and they are a normal lookin resistor. Didn't have any problems (that i know of yet) since wiring it in. We felt the solenoid after a long drive w/o the resistor and it didn't feel hot at all. Oh well better safe than sorry i guess...


Yeah, if MalibuJack recommends the resistor, it's good enough for me, even if I did the calculations.

[ApexVIII]

what can i do to get rid of my MBC, what do i need to get the stock Boost controlr to work beter? with out taper

[UCB]

you need to get a proper tune is what you need

[ApexVIII]

yea... i guess so lol

[spoolin]

what can i do to get rid of my MBC, what do i need to get the stock Boost controlr to work beter? with out taper


A tune... with either an upgraded boost pill or purchase the GM 3 port sensor as shown above.

[ApexVIII]

what can i do to get rid of my MBC, what do i need to get the stock Boost controlr to work beter? with out taper


A tune... with either an upgraded boost pill or purchase the GM 3 port sensor as shown above.


dont people just drill out the stock pill and make it a little larger? how hard is it to tune for that type of set up?

[XVeloX]

what can i do to get rid of my MBC, what do i need to get the stock Boost controlr to work beter? with out taper


A tune... with either an upgraded boost pill or purchase the GM 3 port sensor as shown above.


dont people just drill out the stock pill and make it a little larger? how hard is it to tune for that type of set up?


on the contrary people use a smaller pill. It is fairly easy to tune for this setup, but not unless you have done some reading and know what to play with and what the car can handle. I assume you are going to do it yourself? Definately search through here and EvoM for the info. It's not that complicated, but can be confusing at first.

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

on the contrary people use a smaller pill. It is fairly easy to tune for this setup, but not unless you have done some reading and know what to play with and what the car can handle. I assume you are going to do it yourself? Definately search through here and EvoM for the info. It's not that complicated, but can be confusing at first.


I'm actually kicking around something to make it a bit easier to get the necessary hardware out to people that want to use it that don't need and/or can't come in for custom tunes with it and want to try / do it themselves. Stay tuned.

[O3EVO]

dont people just drill out the stock pill and make it a little larger? how hard is it to tune for that type of set up?



I believe the game is not making the opening larger from what I understand. :D

[UCB]

hmmm...someone deleted my post?

:shock:

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

hmmm...someone deleted my post?

:shock:


?

[UCB]

dunno..maybe I didnt post it in accident. I said the easiest way to get the proper pill to folks for remote tunes is to get the proper pill and insert it into pre-cut hoses, so the end user just has to swap out the hose instead of having to mess with the pill, makes reverting to stock easy as well. Might want to check if works has filed a patent for a rubber hose with a small hole drilled in it however :P

[O3EVO]

dunno..maybe I didnt post it in accident. I said the easiest way to get the proper pill to folks for remote tunes is to get the proper pill and insert it into pre-cut hoses, so the end user just has to swap out the hose instead of having to mess with the pill, makes reverting to stock easy as well. Might want to check if works has filed a patent for a rubber hose with a small hole drilled in it however :P


The funny part is when you get a P2 and ask for the stock hose back... :shock:

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

dunno..maybe I didnt post it in accident. I said the easiest way to get the proper pill to folks for remote tunes is to get the proper pill and insert it into pre-cut hoses, so the end user just has to swap out the hose instead of having to mess with the pill, makes reverting to stock easy as well.


That is exactly what I am tinkering around with. ;)

[UCB]

That is exactly what I am tinkering around with. ;)


Spray paint it pen15 pink to avoid infringing on previous IP ;)

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

That is exactly what I am tinkering around with. ;)


Spray paint it pen15 pink to avoid infringing on previous IP ;)


No worries there, we fingered it out all by our own brainwaves. In fact, it's even different than the "open source" knowledge of the evom thread.

I just want people to have access to something already R&D'd, tested, and working in the real world, on the streets and the track. Anybody can go do it themselves as well, but I've always found it more convenient to just be able to buy a finished product. I don't even really plan on making a million dollars off it. My way of giving back, so to speak. ;)

There will always be people that want to tinker themselves, and people that just want someone else to do it for them. I want to give everyone those options.

I want it to be something you can purchase, install, set a base setting with ecuflash and either leave it there or tinker with it. Some might say that is counter-productive to the services I offer, it might be, but it's how I started as well. ;) Power to da people. Viva la tooning! ;)

[spoolin]

woah... revolutionary!!! LOL.. No i think that it is a really good thing you're doing. Your giving everyone a chance to have something that works, whether it be a purchased product or a self-made system. I believe it's fair and i applaud you for not trying to go all "patent-status" bullcrap. Cant wait to see results...

AHHH YES!!!!!!!! IM FINALLY A CANYON RACER!!!!!! FINALLY!!!

[ApexVIII]

i like you thinking bryan. any idea one when i finished product may come out?

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

i like you thinking bryan. any idea one when i finished product may come out?


I have some OEM hoses on order, should get them in a week or two.

[ApexVIII]

i like you thinking bryan. any idea one when i finished product may come out?


I have some OEM hoses on order, should get them in a week or two.

cool, would this be something that we could do like buy a pill from you that is set to the right size, or would we mod our own parts?