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trinydex
08-18-2007, 09:08 PM
if you want REAL information on brake rotor engineering

i think it's a shame that there isn't one place where everyone can come see the insides of rotors. so i'm making this place.

the basic idea of intelligent rotor design is to maximize air flow THROUGH the rotor by pumping the air through. this is accomplished by establishing a low pressure zone on the outter ring of the rotor and a high pressure zone on the inside of the rotor. this can also be helped along by increasing air speed through the rotor by use of aerofoils.

there are several caveats. hot air expands, so does a manufacturer make expanding channels that may BUILD pressure but make room for expansion or do they make more narrow channels that accelerate air?

also the rotor is active, it moves which NECESSITATES air flow but you must EXPEDITE this process!

http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering01.jpg
http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering02.jpg

this is a picture of a typical pillar vane design rotor, not much to see, if we had a cutaway it would just be a buncha dots. some manufacturers get fancy with diamond pillars, these are just as bad as circular pillars even if said manufacturers will try to sell you otherwise.

http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering03.jpg
this is a drawing of a potential straight vane design.

http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering04.jpg
here's a picture of straight vane design.

http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering05.jpg
http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering06.jpg
http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering07.jpg
project mu's straight pillar vane design

http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering08.jpg
http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering09.jpg
this is kangroo paw design by disc brakes australia, it's like a pillar vane but there are half as many channels on the ouside as there are on the inside, this is actually backwards. but could help with the expansion of hot air as to not back up further in the channels.

http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering10.jpg
this is a typical curved vane rotor

http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering11.jpg

http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/normal_TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineerin g12.5.jpg

this is the most common curved vane design. same amount of channels all the way around. this example is from performance friction.

http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/normal_TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineerin g12.jpg

http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering13.jpg
here is a sample of brembo's curved vane, straight vane and shaped pillar vane (similar to dba's roo paw design).

http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering14.jpg
http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering15.jpg
http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering16.jpg
racing brake offers a very simple design. similar to movit's design in overall geometry it is simpler than movit in that they use full vane walls. there are twice as many channels on the outside as there are on the inside.

http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering17.jpg
movit approaches the engineering of expanding the air differently, they use a fin on each rotor face to break up the flow, this design of course creates twice as many channels on the outside as there are on the inside. however movit adds just a TAD more surface area by using a FIN as opposed to a whole VANE wall.

http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering18.jpg
this is stoptech's aerorotor. i will refer to this type of vaning as uniform, 1 internal vane stretches all the way to the outside. with stoptech's clever placement scheme they have narrow inner vanes expanded to wider outter vanes. notice the aerofoils on the inside ring.

http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering19.jpg

this is ap's offering and it is fine indeed. notice that they use a "uniform vane" design but they create the low pressure zone on the outside ring by actually breaking up the vanes and causing cascadeed flow. notice also the aerofoils. notice that there are also movit type fins intbetween the channels, notice that the fins even have aerofoils. now you no longer wonder why they're so expensive.

http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering20.jpg
here's brake man's hurricane rotor. made of stainless steel and it has all kinds of finning inside. unconventional and totally questionable as a company, not too many people have had experiences with brake man and some that have had bad ones.

http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering21.jpg
as an ending note we'll put endless's "24 slot" rotor on blast here. the rotor loves minimizing surface area which is crucial for pad contact and pad friction. it's also great at shaving pads down quickly so you can buy more endless pads.

http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering22.jpg
here's brembo's offering that shares the same sentiment. these are both obviously show rotors. just like cross drilled rotors are often now associated as being "show"
HAT DESIGNS

http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/normal_TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineerin g22.5.jpg
baer's eradispeed NON floating rotors.

http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering23.jpg
notice endless's LACK of hat venting.

http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering24.jpg
http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering25.jpg
project mu's very normal hat venting

http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/normal_TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineerin g25.5.jpg
pf's very unique full floating attatchement design.

http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/normal_TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineerin g25.6.jpg
and their approach to getting air from both sides of the hat, similar to dba and many other types of single side hat mount brakes.

http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering26.jpg
disc brakes australia's approach to getting flow from both sides of the mounting hat.

http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/normal_TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineerin g27.jpg
http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/normal_TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineerin g28.jpg
http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/normal_TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineerin g29.jpg

girodisc's same approach

http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering30.jpg
http://www.socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering31.jpg

notice girodisc's fasteners and possible pad clearence issues.

http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering32.jpg
stoptech's single side mounted hats, with aerofoil stand offs.

http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering33.jpg
brembo's very conventional single side mounted hats, notice the antirattle hardware, spring clips.

http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering34.jpg
this is a diagram of how racing brake's antirattle hardware works.

http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering35.jpg
http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering36.jpg
this is racing brake's hat mounting method, the center mounted hat. notice they use hex bolts instead of allen screws for their antirattle hardware.

http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering37.jpg
racing brake's very innovative rear two piece rotor design that includes a cast iron ebrake drum.

http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering38.jpg
brake man's normal hat venting design.

everyone brings up jgtc to try and defend project mu and endless

http://www.dome.co.jp/e/race/car/03nsx.html

the takata dome nsx uses alcon ap bbk

i'm not saying that endless is bad. but it's not the best.

http://socalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10991/TECH%20ARTICLE%20brake%20rotor%20engineering39.jpg

this is the winningest skyline using ap again.

this is one of those be all end all threads that leaves out as little as possible cuz i'm not sellin' anything.

player67
08-19-2007, 01:23 PM
ooooh I see now!

trinydex
08-19-2007, 02:38 PM
it's not that alcon and ap don't make the best stuff but they don't sell much which might make it more difficult to get service pars. like those replacement rotor rings.

smack
08-19-2007, 02:40 PM
actually up here in norcal it's really easy to get alcon replacement parts. just call stasis engineering up at infineon.

trinydex
08-19-2007, 02:56 PM
it doesn't matter if you call them and they don't have them... i remember when their replacement 2 pieces came out they were saught after but the high price deterred people. shortly after they were no longer offered. that's something scary when you plopped down the 800 bucks for them. i don't know if they were still making the rings but i remember speaking to someone via pm on evom (he worked with stasis) and he said they didn't have them anymore.

whos knows though maybe they're a generic piece that can be pulled off the shelf from the replacement of another rotor ring... i imagine the bbk pieces are more firmly supported also.

Positron
08-19-2007, 03:15 PM
Dave, do you know what venting design Powerslots use? Great article though. I never knew rotors had various venting methods like above.

btw, I liked how you said this LOL...

"as an ending note we'll put endless's "24 slot" rotor on blast here. the rotor loves minimizing surface area which is crucial for pad contact and pad friction. it's also great at shaving pads down quickly so you can buy more endless pads."

trinydex
08-19-2007, 05:43 PM
power slot is likely a pillar vane design, they're cheap rotors right?

if you look at their site the normal powerslot rotors are indeed pilar vane.

powerslot plus looks like straight vane

in all likelyhood there might be differences from car to car. as you can see on their front page there are some curved vane rotors.

trinydex
08-19-2007, 05:48 PM
btw i hope you guys know that project mu is made by mackin which makes volk wheels.

if you guys are familiar with how it's made the show. you might know an episode where they show an iron casting foundry where they make a variety of items like rotors etc.

the fact is that such a foundry has the spin cutting (finishing) equipment necessary to turn sand cast stuff into a nice looking finished product which is why mackin has branched out to do these additional manufactures

player67
08-19-2007, 07:11 PM
^ I knew that

SpeedElement
08-19-2007, 07:29 PM
Correct me if I am wrong.. but I don't think Mackin Industries makes Project Mu rotors and its products. I always thought Mackin Industries is an authorized company to import top names aftermarket parts from Japan. An official authorized Importer?

trinydex
08-19-2007, 07:33 PM
hmmm i guess it's rays then whatever foundry makes volk wheels

fiaevo.com
08-19-2007, 07:48 PM
Good article. I dont know how much of this is track tested versus in theory analysis. I have used all the brands listed above and the only one that actually did not let me dwon with stock callipers is giro disc. I have beaten the living crap out of them and under some severe heat ( down south and arizona ). Second to that will be the DBA 2 piece.

I would like to know what you think of the above two , since it seems like you have done quite a bit of research on the subject, thanks for the info , it help me put some question to rest.

Thanks
Sammy

PS: you should also investigate which foundaries these products come from and what grade material they use. Structural integrity is dependent on the metalurgy. Asian foundaries with exception of Japan and perhaps Taiwan have continualy used low grade metal. May be you have some info on various foundaries they use?

trinydex
08-19-2007, 07:58 PM
so you tried the stop techs and racing brakes and they failed on you?

me as someone "not inside the industry" it's hard to come by such info. the people who are in the industry have no desire to inform the public so that the public can make educated decisions on purchases.