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View Full Version : Driving Techniques For HPDE Beginners and Amateurs - WHAT NOT TO DO



JDMevoBOOST
01-24-2008, 03:14 PM
Well I kinda poked around and didn't quite find any one topic that stated what NOT to do OR what NOT to worry about when you are still a beginner :P I thought it would be useful and informative to see what you guys have come across or something you learned while driving on track.


Also note that: this is for information purposes only. If you read something hear that you disagree about, then please keep it civil as we know people's idea of "safety" differs, so lets keep an open mind. :lol:


My list of things that I have seen

-Do NOT be a "thumb-hooker" (I am guilty of this) ....I know this sounds weird, but I have noticed that sometimes it is comfortable to "hook" my thumb through the steering wheel while driving instead of holding the wheel at 10 and 2. This may be fine and dandy, but if something should jolt your wheel (burm, rock, debris) it will be harder to react with your hands not on the wheel properly.

-Do NOT drive as if this is competitive racing. There is a difference between wheel-to-wheel racing and HPDE. Please be mindful that even if you are a hot shoe, that doesn't mean that everyone around you knows what is going on.

-Do NOT run race harnesses without a roll bar w/ a proper harness bar. There are some harnesses deemed okay with just harness bars, but I think there is only one and its the Scroth ones. Sparco/Takata/Sabelt etc are all designed with use of a roll bar. (You can get more info off the NASA web site.) I am not talking about Cusco/safety 21 here either because honestly that's an appearance item. I know you see folks running them to their back seats and using them with only a harness bar and it's not safe.

**Most harnesses are also street illegal, due to the fact that if you have them on properly you won't be able to see behind you because your shoulder will be strapped down to the seat back.**

-Do NOT run fixed back seats without a roll bar - Again this is not deemed safe. You can get this info straight off the Nasa website.

-Do NOT run a cage with any bars forward of the B-pillar for a street car. Yes cages look cool, but they are meant for use with a helmet. Even padding the bar won't help you if your noggin hits it.



Let the fun begin!!! :lol:

SJCoruja
01-24-2008, 03:21 PM
You basically mentioned it, but I think the most important thing (technique-wise) for new trackers is:

- DO plan to go SLOW. In addition to the comments above about not racing, focus on feel and smoothness. If you go out to the track for the first few times and keep telling yourself that you're going to go smooth and sow, you'll find yourself being very safe...and actually very fast without realizing!

mtsevovii
01-24-2008, 03:28 PM
dont admire the scenery while on the track.

:lol:

DirectorSe7en
01-24-2008, 03:30 PM
-Do NOT run a cage with any bars forward of the B-pillar for a street car. Yes cages look cool, but they are meant for use with a helmet. Even padding the bar won't help you if your noggin hits it.

:shock: God, what a horrible image to imagine.....

UCB
01-24-2008, 03:33 PM
Don't lift mid apex :lol:

Any reason why you cant run fix-back seats without a roll bar? A lot of factory-prepped cars come with them without roll-over protection

JDMevoBOOST
01-24-2008, 03:34 PM
Ahhh that brings me to my next one:

-Do NOT feel the need to heel-toe shift (yet) - When you first start out there are so many other things to pay attention to than this. I was guilty of the same. Then my instructor said to not worry about the shifting so much and to just try and take a smooth line even if it was in a higher gear. More important things to remember were where the apexes are (find a landmark shrub, mark on the floor etc) and to try and get a feel for the track and the corner entry speeds.

-Do NOT feel bad about yourself when you get passed by seemingly slow cars. It will happen and that is inevitable. Even though your car can beat these slower cars, that doesn't mean your driving skill is good enough to do it yet. When I first started HPDE in my ITR I got passed by all kinds of slower cars (sohc civics, miata's, mazdaspeeds). Don't worry about it so much. Think of it as motivation to get more seat time because that is the only thing that will get you to go faster.

-Do NOT follow other people's lines - If you are a beginner, then more than likely so is the guy in front of you. So following somebody else's line probably isn't a good idea.

-Do NOT get caught in "Chase" mode - Yah when somebody passes you, your instinct is to overtake them. Do not "chase" people, because once again this is NOT racing and more than likely will land you off the track or in a tire wall.

UCB
01-24-2008, 03:36 PM
Yeah, bad to follow, especially if the guy in front is a uber novice and/or drives a rwd car. The line evos take and the line most other cars on the track take is a bit different

Unowned
01-24-2008, 03:37 PM
Tips TO DO:

- Brake in a Straight Line

- Be smooth with Braking and Throttle (including releasing brake to apply throttle), tires are sensitive to abrupt changes and this smoothness will reward you in faster/predictible cornering (Added Edit)

evo_ate_gsr
01-24-2008, 03:37 PM
^^ Â*awesome tips soo far bro!! keep em up!


I find myself here reading some of them, and I'm like " Oh good point" haha


Keep your calm as a driver when you get passed and running your own race seems important. Â*Like how you said not to worry when you get passed, and feel the need to chase. Â*Just do whatcha can.

JDMevoBOOST
01-24-2008, 03:44 PM
Any reason why you cant run fix-back seats without a roll bar? A lot of factory-prepped cars come with them without roll-over protection


I suppose you are referencing those high dollar italian machines?? If so, supposedly some of those cars come with somewhat of a "cage" built into the frame of the car. Not sure if that is an excuse or not, but Nasa does not advise it. Although I have seen it plenty of times pass inspection.

Basically in theory (this might be an old rule aimed at older cars with lower safety standards) when you roll with fixed back seats and harnesses with no roll bar, you are strapped upright in your seat. And with no rollover protection and a bad enough roll (roof collapse) then you can't move out of the way or have anywhere to go and that roof comes down on your head and collapses the spine.

It is still up in the air whether running fixed back seats and stock seat belts is safe. There has been a bit of discussion on it on other forums. But the way I think of it is, it depends on your setup. Sometimes very stiff and high thigh bolsters will keep the lap belt from properly resting on your body. You can get by this by unbolting the stock seatbelt and threading it through the thigh bolster harness holes (if your seat has em).

On my integra, for the street I use stock seat belts and a roll bar w/ fixed back seats. I threaded the seat belt through. Then when I go HPDE I clip in my Sparco harnesses and leave my stock seat belts off to the side.

JDMevoBOOST
01-24-2008, 03:50 PM
I tried to find some old rollover pics, couldnt't locate it. But one of them was a 5-series and the roof had collapsed in a rollover. The roof was level with the bottom edge of the windows. Most evos I have seen roll, remain pretty much in tact, but you know the saying...."better safe than sorry"

MarkSAE
01-24-2008, 04:09 PM
Supposedly, the non-fixed back seats are collapsable under certain circumstances. I don't see how a rollover could cause the seat back to collapse though.

UCB
01-24-2008, 04:11 PM
my fixed back is higher than my head, so in the event of a roll over and the roof collapses, I would think it would actually help prevent the roof compressing my head :lol:. If the force is so much to break or bend the seat, im probably fubared either way

JDMevoBOOST
01-24-2008, 04:17 PM
Hahahaha

JDMevoBOOST
01-24-2008, 04:18 PM
Just remember. With your helmet on you are a couple inches taller in your seat.

jbfoco
01-24-2008, 05:19 PM
lots of good points...

-put ur ego aside ... There's always someone faster
- don't lift don't lift and don't lift

e8
01-24-2008, 09:29 PM
lift-throttle-oversteer- don't do it unless it's intentional

drive at 6/10.

jbfoco
01-24-2008, 09:39 PM
Yeah, bad to follow, especially if the guy in front is a uber novice and/or drives a rwd car. The line evos take and the line most other cars on the track take is a bit different

+1

There is "THE" line and then there is "THE EVO" line....

awdaddict
01-24-2008, 10:29 PM
Yeah, bad to follow, especially if the guy in front is a uber novice and/or drives a rwd car. The line evos take and the line most other cars on the track take is a bit different

+1

There is "THE" line and then there is "THE EVO" line....


I followed the Miata at Infineon once... was driving so slow.
IT was his fault cuz his car was bright yellow!!! :P

Earlyapex + lift = >_<"

JDMevoBOOST
01-25-2008, 02:48 PM
There are instances where you can lift to your advantage, but that is a more advanced technique. FWD guys use it alot. Once they get understeer they abruptly lift causing over steer and they immediately get back on the throttle to hold the car from spinning. Pretty gutsy in an evo at any fast rate of speed.

steevo8
01-25-2008, 03:02 PM
from what I've seen its pretty much the most effective way of getting these damn things to turn.

JDMevoBOOST
01-25-2008, 03:14 PM
Hahahh, but understeer won't be too much of an issue for beginners if they are as scared as I was the first couple times. Hell when I get to HPDE the evo I will probably be scared as shit with so much power.

Besides lift throttle is something that has to be practiced and more than likely your first time around you are going to panic and put both feet in.

JDMevoBOOST
01-25-2008, 03:17 PM
Ahhh and that brings me to my next one that I feel is THE MOST IMPORTANT.

-Do NOT try and "save" the car when you already have a wheel or two off.

Yes we all know how embarassing it is to go off track. But trust me, if you try and save the car by bringing it back on track after you have dropped two off you are asking for trouble. You guys have seen evos roll on track and every time I have seen it, it's because the driver dropped two off and tried to come back on the track. Don't be a hero. Just let the car go off track straight. Clutch in and apply the brake, but do not attempt to steer the car, especially in sand, dirt, gravel or grass aka (buttonwillow, laguna, thunderhill)

hagakure
01-25-2008, 03:18 PM
A lot of this depends on how much, how abruptly, and where on track you lift. IT is not advisable for a beginner to do this, and a lot of folks in Evos have gone off in turn 2 at t-hill because of abrubt (sp?) lift-off oversteer. But I had to learn to lift judiciously to gett he car to turn. In the CRX it is nmandatory for mid-corner rotation in some corners...in fact I need to learn how to LFB more effectively. But, beginners just need to learn to drive smoothly and cleanly, on line.





There are instances where you can lift to your advantage, but that is a more advanced technique. FWD guys use it alot. Once they get understeer they abruptly lift causing over steer and they immediately get back on the throttle to hold the car from spinning. Pretty gutsy in an evo at any fast rate of speed.

steevo8
01-25-2008, 03:21 PM
yeah its for sure not something you want to do your first time out but what I think people were getting at with the don't lift comments is that itsfar more safe to stay in the gas and go off straight then to lift and go off sideways....

My problem is im not use to so much power and kinda live by "when in doubt, pin it" theory and it tends to make me considerably slower cause I just push real bad. From the entry to 11 through exiting 13 is the worst for me since its such a slow section. I just need to get some more seat time and figure out what this part throttle thing is that everyone talks about. :D

JDMevoBOOST
01-25-2008, 03:54 PM
Hahaahah...gas pedal = on and off switch for ya, eh?

Yah left foot braking definitely takes some getting used to. It's easy on the street, but when turning or in the heat of the moment most folks tend to use more pressure than they would normally when left foot braking OR they are concentrating so much on the braking that they aren't smooth with the wheel, etc.

steevo8
01-25-2008, 04:44 PM
yeah its like a three position switch. Off/Maintain/On. On street tires on the street its no big deal cause I just let it spin and ride it out since I'm no where near the limit. On r comps on the track its a tad un-nerving cause it just makes the chassis upset. I'm actually going to run street tires and my 91 map my next time out to see if that helps me learn a little.

hagakure
01-25-2008, 05:07 PM
Good idea Steve.




yeah its like a three position switch. Off/Maintain/On. On street tires on the street its no big deal cause I just let it spin and ride it out since I'm no where near the limit. On r comps on the track its a tad un-nerving cause it just makes the chassis upset. I'm actually going to run street tires and my 91 map my next time out to see if that helps me learn a little.

steevo8
01-25-2008, 05:12 PM
yeah I figure I have nothing to loose. Even though josh thinks I'm a pussy for it, I'm fine with street tires for an event. Plus I have two sets of r comps waiting so its not like its a permanent thing

redvolution
01-25-2008, 06:00 PM
I always repeat a few mantras for people new to the track:
- look waaaay ahead, not right in front of the car
- look where you want to go: the car will follow where your eyes are focused. This sounds obvious but it helps tremendously.
- always be smooth

Matz
01-25-2008, 06:45 PM
One thing I found helpful for staying within my limits was to look for all of the flagmen and acknowledge them on every lap during the first couple of sessions. That was advice I received after crashing a couple of years ago, and I'm just bringing it up again now because I think it was very helpful.

earlyapex aka jack ass
01-25-2008, 06:48 PM
Ahhh and that brings me to my next one that I feel is THE MOST IMPORTANT.

-Do NOT try and "save" the car when you already have a wheel or two off.

Yes we all know how embarassing it is to go off track. But trust me, if you try and save the car by bringing it back on track after you have dropped two off you are asking for trouble. You guys have seen evos roll on track and every time I have seen it, it's because the driver dropped two off and tried to come back on the track. Don't be a hero. Just let the car go off track straight. Clutch in and apply the brake, but do not attempt to steer the car, especially in sand, dirt, gravel or grass aka (buttonwillow, laguna, thunderhill)


Very good thing to bring up. If you put two wheels off, DO NOT yank it back onto the track. Continue to drive the car straight and do not lift off abruptly. If you do yank it back on, once those two wheels get tarmac traction again the car will shoot off whatever way you are yanking the car.

I've seen about 5 cars get totalled at buttonwillow and about 3 cars get totalled at thunderhill doing this. Thunderhill was coming off 15 into the front straight and they put two wheels off, and buttonwillow is the same story.

I've seen a Scion somehow do this coming into the straight at thill and hit the hot pit inside wall, not even the front straight wall. No idea how this was accomplished but it was a HARD hit.

Ben
01-25-2008, 07:31 PM
There are instances where you can lift to your advantage, but that is a more advanced technique. FWD guys use it alot. Once they get understeer they abruptly lift causing over steer and they immediately get back on the throttle to hold the car from spinning. Pretty gutsy in an evo at any fast rate of speed.


Almost flew off the road lifting off a few days after buying my Evo. I was used to doing this in my SE-R and didn't really think it through and was just going on old habits I guess.

tkeirin
01-25-2008, 10:34 PM
great info :D

JDMevoBOOST
01-30-2008, 04:15 PM
Ahhh all this talk about R compounds lately so that brings out another WHAT NOT TO DO


DO NOT - drive on R-comps until you have out driven good street tires. If you are fast enough to overheat Azenis and feel that the tires are limiting you, then by all means go for it if you feel ready. But do not go to a track day on R-comps early in your first year or so of HPDE because just like a good handling car can hide mistakes, so do good tires. R-comps save you from bad lines and will mask bad driving techniques. Although you will be faster than on street tires, you will be limiting your driver progression. Street tires expose driver error and that's how you should learn. Not to mention for the most part R-comps don't squeal and don't give as much warning when they are breaking loose.

steevo8
01-30-2008, 11:00 PM
Ahhh all this talk about R compounds lately so that brings out another WHAT NOT TO DO


DO NOT - drive on R-comps until you have out driven good street tires. If you are fast enough to overheat Azenis and feel that the tires are limiting you, then by all means go for it if you feel ready. But do not go to a track day on R-comps early in your first year or so of HPDE because just like a good handling car can hide mistakes, so do good tires. R-comps save you from bad lines and will mask bad driving techniques. Although you will be faster than on street tires, you will be limiting your driver progression. Street tires expose driver error and that's how you should learn. Not to mention for the most part R-comps don't squeal and don't give as much warning when they are breaking loose.


I kinda think this is a tad subjective. I actually think that there are plenty of people that can handle rcomps just fine early in their learning stages. With that said though I do think their learning curve would be better had they spent some time on street tires.

Example: My first track day was on shaved RA1's and as anti as my instructor was about them, by the end of the first session he said that I should be perfectly fine on them and that I was controlling slides and such just fine. On the flip side of that though I found it very hard to try and throttle steer the car as well as I was a bit un-nerved on 6,7,8 with all the griip I had, as I felt I was going fast yet the grip was completely fine and I wasnt getting any feeling of movement really...

So as I feel Im ok with running r-comps I am actually going to try street tires cause I believe it will help with throttle control and general feel of trying to get the car to rotate controllably.

IMHO I believe that theres a few different kinds of track people. One of which is just out to have a good time driving kinda fast a couple times of year. For someone like that I think R comps would be fine. Others are there to prove they are fast and/or to impress people with their skills in which i dont think the should run sticky tires or even be on the track for that matter. The last kind of driver is what I see myself as, and thats someone who wants to learn everything they can about going fast that way they can have all the proper tools to actually do so.

player67
02-02-2008, 04:32 AM
Woah I just saw this thread and yes I agree with everything that has been said especially about concentrating on being slow and safe cause then without notice you'll up the speed naturally from adapted comfort of your surroundings, apex etc etc. I def cant wait to play around with my evo again at thill with my new setup before it goes bye bye

player67
02-02-2008, 04:36 AM
Ahhh all this talk about R compounds lately so that brings out another WHAT NOT TO DO


DO NOT - drive on R-comps until you have out driven good street tires. If you are fast enough to overheat Azenis and feel that the tires are limiting you, then by all means go for it if you feel ready. But do not go to a track day on R-comps early in your first year or so of HPDE because just like a good handling car can hide mistakes, so do good tires. R-comps save you from bad lines and will mask bad driving techniques. Although you will be faster than on street tires, you will be limiting your driver progression. Street tires expose driver error and that's how you should learn. Not to mention for the most part R-comps don't squeal and don't give as much warning when they are breaking loose.


I kinda think this is a tad subjective. I actually think that there are plenty of people that can handle rcomps just fine early in their learning stages. With that said though I do think their learning curve would be better had they spent some time on street tires.

Example: My first track day was on shaved RA1's and as anti as my instructor was about them, by the end of the first session he said that I should be perfectly fine on them and that I was controlling slides and such just fine. On the flip side of that though I found it very hard to try and throttle steer the car as well as I was a bit un-nerved on 6,7,8 with all the griip I had, as I felt I was going fast yet the grip was completely fine and I wasnt getting any feeling of movement really...

So as I feel Im ok with running r-comps I am actually going to try street tires cause I believe it will help with throttle control and general feel of trying to get the car to rotate controllably.

IMHO I believe that theres a few different kinds of track people. One of which is just out to have a good time driving kinda fast a couple times of year. For someone like that I think R comps would be fine. Others are there to prove they are fast and/or to impress people with their skills in which i dont think the should run sticky tires or even be on the track for that matter. The last kind of driver is what I see myself as, and thats someone who wants to learn everything they can about going fast that way they can have all the proper tools to actually do so.


+1 Im a n00b to tracking the evo but not a n00b at the track especially thill and when I took my evo out there last year on some fresh azenis I was torching them and I was dying to slap on some r comps. But again its subjective people new to road racing should stay with dot tires until they feel theyre ready for comps

player67
02-02-2008, 04:41 AM
good example to bryans point

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROnq1bqYlHo

dabaysevo
02-02-2008, 08:17 AM
^I remember that, it was a black or dark purple Cayman at the NCRC day last year. Â*It was one of our NCE track days, I was talking to Bryan because his UICP blew off and I turn around and see the Cayman spinning over the bypass. Â*That was a hot day too, Jason baked his Azenis and Bryan's car overheated. Â*That was a hot day.

hagakure
02-02-2008, 09:18 AM
That is a rediculous place to lift.


author=player67 link=topic=26087.msg434592#msg434592 date=1201952507]
good example to bryans point

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROnq1bqYlHo

meape
02-02-2008, 11:01 AM
Yea, I too was there last April when the Scion hit the pit wall on the inside exitting 15 after going off on the outside and trying to reel it back in. It was an extremely loud and sickening sound even where we were pitted just south of the covered paddock. The essentially brand new Scion Tc looked totaled and the driver left in ambulance, although folks said he was OK.

Last February at Infineon in heavy rain all day, at least half-dozen or more cars did not leave under their own power. The suggestion to look for the flag marshalls is a good one. Even when going faster with more track day experience, you have to include those corner workers in your regular visual cues or you will most certainly miss an important yellow, or other, flag.

joshesh
02-02-2008, 11:29 AM
1 thing i see a lot of people doing:
dont go to the track with stock brakes, fluid or pads - they will overheat fade and possibly drop to the floor when you need them most.

Get Motul and dont mess around with the blue crap, race pads will make your experience much better and you wont regret doing the upgrade first.

dabaysevo
02-02-2008, 11:40 AM
1 thing i see a lot of people doing:
dont go to the track with stock brakes, fluid or pads - they will overheat fade and possibly drop to the floor when you need them most.

Get Motul and dont mess around with the blue crap, race pads will make your experience much better and you wont regret doing the upgrade first.


You are an exception but not the rule, when you are advanced driver and have been to the track in other cars, then yeah maybe.Â* The fluids I do agree upon if it is relatively old, yes you can flush the fluid.Â* The pads for a total newbs isn't necessarily a must only if they have plenty of meat left in them.Â* Beginners tend to not go really fast anyway and will not get into the brakes as much.Â* The real important thing is that the brakes are up to par.

hagakure
02-02-2008, 11:42 AM
Call me a pussy, but that is exactly why I'm hesitant to drive, let alone TT or Race, at sears. I cannot afford to loose this car, and I know at least 5 people personally that have wadded their cars there in the esses, there is just no forgiveness. I think I may stick to my plan of limiting myself to T-hill, B-willow, Laguna (I know, but it's loads safer than Sears), and the new track in merced when it's built...sorry for the off topic.

dabaysevo
02-02-2008, 11:50 AM
Common Percy, you can't just not run Sears, it's a very nice track. Why don't just run down a group until you are confident enough to get back up to speed?

steevo8
02-02-2008, 11:59 AM
this is when its nice to have a car with full coverage insurance. Granted it would/will suck to take the hit on my insurance but its still far better then throwing 30k down the drain.

hagakure
02-02-2008, 12:07 PM
It's really NOT a confidence issue., and I don't make that many mistakes usually. I'll be up to speed in the CRX after a long weekend with NCRC. It's the number of good drivers that I know that have just made little mistakes with catastrphic consequesnces (Andy Sutak loosing his beautiful 600 HP 2700 pound mustang). All it takes is a mistake in the esses and your car can be gone. Could I afford another one? yes. Could my marraige? Maybe not:) I could wreck my car anywhere, And the chances are going up in 2009 when I go wheel to wheel. But there is a big difference between knocking fenders off, etc, and slamming into a tire barrier at 85 MPH. Every time without fail that I go spectate at sears I see at least 3-4 cars totaled. they are not all bozo drivers. I know it's a legendary trak, etc, but I just have to be pragmatic. I also know that once I've got the car down I waon't want to pussyfoot around. I'd want to rn TT or race there. May not make sense to some, but oh well:)

joshesh
02-02-2008, 12:34 PM
1 thing i see a lot of people doing:
dont go to the track with stock brakes, fluid or pads - they will overheat fade and possibly drop to the floor when you need them most.

Get Motul and dont mess around with the blue crap, race pads will make your experience much better and you wont regret doing the upgrade first.


You are an exception but not the rule, when you are advanced driver and have been to the track in other cars, then yeah maybe. The fluids I do agree upon if it is relatively old, yes you can flush the fluid. The pads for a total newbs isn't necessarily a must only if they have plenty of meat left in them. Beginners tend to not go really fast anyway and will not get into the brakes as much. The real important thing is that the brakes are up to par.



^I agree with you not for the very first time, when i did my first track day i had done absolutely nothing except a drop in filter. But if you are a noobie that wants to do more than 1 day a year, invest in some good pads.

Funny, i was going to post something like: 'you should make sure your brake setup is up to par" - but i didnt think it would mean much to someone who is a noob to the track and has no idea what par is out there.

steevo8
02-02-2008, 12:38 PM
It's really NOT a confidence issue., and I don't make that many mistakes usually. I'll be up to speed in the CRX after a long weekend with NCRC. It's the number of good drivers that I know that have just made little mistakes with catastrphic consequesnces (Andy Sutak loosing his beautiful 600 HP 2700 pound mustang). All it takes is a mistake in the esses and your car can be gone. Could I afford another one? yes. Could my marraige? Maybe not:) I could wreck my car anywhere, And the chances are going up in 2009 when I go wheel to wheel. But there is a big difference between knocking fenders off, etc, and slamming into a tire barrier at 85 MPH. Every time without fail that I go spectate at sears I see at least 3-4 cars totaled. they are not all bozo drivers. I know it's a legendary trak, etc, but I just have to be pragmatic. I also know that once I've got the car down I waon't want to pussyfoot around. I'd want to rn TT or race there. May not make sense to some, but oh well:)


Your points are all valid Percy, no one is questioning that. I think the views of others are that, you are missing out on something that is a huge opportunity that us as drivers living in this area have, and that we often take it for granted. As you said before, you could wreck anywhere yet you still take the risks. Is it worth a little more risk to be able to drive on a great track like sears? For many it is, for others its just that little bit that makes it not worth it. For me Im really excited about driving there mainly for the experience of driving there and not so much for the performance aspect of it (lap times, progression, pushing the car and my abilities etc)

MarkSAE
02-02-2008, 12:40 PM
I was on my brakes WAY more when I was a n00b. It really depends on the driver.. but I got my stock pads to fade when I was starting out.

steevo8
02-02-2008, 12:44 PM
1 thing i see a lot of people doing:
dont go to the track with stock brakes, fluid or pads - they will overheat fade and possibly drop to the floor when you need them most.

Get Motul and dont mess around with the blue crap, race pads will make your experience much better and you wont regret doing the upgrade first.


You are an exception but not the rule, when you are advanced driver and have been to the track in other cars, then yeah maybe. The fluids I do agree upon if it is relatively old, yes you can flush the fluid. The pads for a total newbs isn't necessarily a must only if they have plenty of meat left in them. Beginners tend to not go really fast anyway and will not get into the brakes as much. The real important thing is that the brakes are up to par.



^I agree with you not for the very first time, when i did my first track day i had done absolutely nothing except a drop in filter. But if you are a noobie that wants to do more than 1 day a year, invest in some good pads.

Funny, i was going to post something like: 'you should make sure your brake setup is up to par" - but i didnt think it would mean much to someone who is a noob to the track and has no idea what par is out there.


Honestly I think regardless of your background or driving ability that decent pads and fluid are a must. I would also suggest SS lines. Most people that own evo's do so because they are into performance and I would imagine that if you did a two day event or even a one day where you get 6-7 20min sessions that even a new driver would bake their fluid and get their pads pretty hot. Maybe not enough to actually NEED fluids and pads but its for sure not going to hurt.

hagakure
02-02-2008, 12:46 PM
I feel you Steve. But I know I would be frustrated to drive around at 1:57 or something because I'm being cautious...I now I'm missing out!:)
I agree on the pads and fluids. The Evo is a heavy car, and th estock pads are not up to the job, regardless of your level. That does not mean you have to gett he most agressive pad in the world either.

Mister_Pants
02-02-2008, 01:02 PM
I feel there is nothing wrong with bringing a 100% stock vehicle to an HPDE event. In fact in some cases I think it does more to educate a new driver. Now a brake fluid change is not a bad idea, it's cheap easy insurance, but you could do far worse than the stock pads that come on the Evo, in fact my stock pads outperformed the project MU's I tried out once (I have since then only used Ferodo's.) My point is that if you take your Evo out to the track and in one or two 25 minute sessions in the beginner group you manage to waste your tires and brakes than maybe it would be better to get a few sessions with an instructor instead of running out and buying r-comps and race pads. Everyone agrees that smooth is fast and one thing I've noticed is that it is usually easier to waste tires and cook brakes by being overly aggressive and not driving smooth. Taking a car out to an HPDE decked out for track duty can sometimes lull people into a false sense of security, or make the driver focus on going faster rather than learning corner approach and good braking. The Evo is a very capable car stock, but it's also easy to end up overdriving the car. I just feel that there is a lot to be learned without the need to run r-comps and /or race pads if you've never been to the track or only go once or twice a year.

player67
02-02-2008, 04:42 PM
My stock pads shitted on me last year....Iono that day my evo disappointed me abit, tires were torched and pads were fried I should of went there more prepared I underestimated myself very much cause I thought even in stock form the evo wouldve been too much to handle at thill but I found that after a few laps I was getting the jist of it quite fast coming from FWD tracking at thill and seca. I think the Evo really felt fwd when I went but started to transition when the back almost went out. This was on stock suspension with a whiteline rear sway bar set on medium. Also I had 300whp (it was after I got tuned) so I was a lil scared it was way too much power for my first time on the track with an evo but it was really easy to get use to. But I still rly wish I had r comps and some ferrodos

UCB
02-02-2008, 05:43 PM
I was on my brakes WAY more when I was a n00b. It really depends on the driver.. but I got my stock pads to fade when I was starting out.


ask byt about his stock brakes at thill

*ducks*

earlyapex aka jack ass
02-02-2008, 06:08 PM
I just feel that there is a lot to be learned without the need to run r-comps and /or race pads if you've never been to the track or only go once or twice a year.



I think everyone that is "new" at tracking would be doing themselves a HUGE favor by running street tires for at least a year of tracking. Street tires will keep your potential speed at a much lower level than stickier tires. You will also get a better feel for the car, it's potential and it's handling traits when it has lower grip. You will also be at a much lower speed than if you where on stickier tires if/when you spin.

Learn the car with street tires. It will give you the building blocks and the experience for when you end up going to stickier tires. Many people jump right into R compounds and experience the higher cornering speeds they can offer, however, if you don't have the experience to know what to do when bad things happen, they will happen at a MUCH faster rate and you will run out of talent very quickly, and possibly learn an expensive lesson or worse yet, hurt yourself.

I highly urge all beginners to drive with street tires. Hell, all-seasons are even better.

byt
02-02-2008, 06:11 PM
I was on my brakes WAY more when I was a n00b. It really depends on the driver.. but I got my stock pads to fade when I was starting out.


ask byt about his stock brakes at thill

*ducks*


lol indeed..

Mister_Pants
02-02-2008, 06:45 PM
I just feel that there is a lot to be learned without the need to run r-comps and /or race pads if you've never been to the track or only go once or twice a year.



I think everyone that is "new" at tracking would be doing themselves a HUGE favor by running street tires for at least a year of tracking. Street tires will keep your potential speed at a much lower level than stickier tires. You will also get a better feel for the car, it's potential and it's handling traits when it has lower grip. You will also be at a much lower speed than if you where on stickier tires if/when you spin.

Learn the car with street tires. It will give you the building blocks and the experience for when you end up going to stickier tires. Many people jump right into R compounds and experience the higher cornering speeds they can offer, however, if you don't have the experience to know what to do when bad things happen, they will happen at a MUCH faster rate and you will run out of talent very quickly, and possibly learn an expensive lesson or worse yet, hurt yourself.

I highly urge all beginners to drive with street tires. Hell, all-seasons are even better.


Exactly! Very well put, I have to admit earlier when I wrote that post I was having trouble putting into words what I was thinking. Thanks Bryan!
OT: I should be getting some disposable funds soon and I need a tune, I'll be in touch.

steevo8
02-02-2008, 07:09 PM
I just feel that there is a lot to be learned without the need to run r-comps and /or race pads if you've never been to the track or only go once or twice a year.



I think everyone that is "new" at tracking would be doing themselves a HUGE favor by running street tires for at least a year of tracking. Street tires will keep your potential speed at a much lower level than stickier tires. You will also get a better feel for the car, it's potential and it's handling traits when it has lower grip. You will also be at a much lower speed than if you where on stickier tires if/when you spin.

Learn the car with street tires. It will give you the building blocks and the experience for when you end up going to stickier tires. Many people jump right into R compounds and experience the higher cornering speeds they can offer, however, if you don't have the experience to know what to do when bad things happen, they will happen at a MUCH faster rate and you will run out of talent very quickly, and possibly learn an expensive lesson or worse yet, hurt yourself.

I highly urge all beginners to drive with street tires. Hell, all-seasons are even better.


Really, a whole season? like 5-10 events?

Wont the heat turn completely good tires into garbage real fast though?

earlyapex aka jack ass
02-02-2008, 07:41 PM
I did about 12 events or so with street tires before upgrading to R's.

At the time I used some HP continentals, BFG KD's and the OG Azenis.

The first set you will probably kill because you will be overdriving the car. By the next set you will be smoother and won't kill them as fast.

I would think that Khumo MX's, BFG KDW or the new Azenis would be a good street tire to use. I actually ran my Evo last year with Azenis 615 for one event. I actually had much more fun because of the different slip angles, plus I wasn't driving as hard as I normally do because I had a lady friend as a passenger and she had never experienced on-track driving before.

People complain all the time about how 615's get greasy. The thing is they don't totally fall off and become hockey pucks or something. They just lose some grip. This is actually good because the car can/will slide more, which is going to get you more comfortable with sliding the car around and you will feel the dynamics of the car much more than if you just had the supreme grip of a R-compound.

Street tires are also much much easier on brakes as well. Just get a decent street tire. Don't get a crappy cheap knock off tire because they probably won't have a good speed rating which could be dangerous.

dabaysevo
02-02-2008, 07:44 PM
^I'm still on the stock tires and have run four events so far and stock pads as well. I still have 8mm left on the pads as measured with a dial caliper. I was surprised as hell because I have 15000 miles on the car but then remembered they are all highway miles pretty much so I don't use the brakes very much. I have changed the brake fluid though. I don't pussy foot it around the track either, and don't run a lot of power compared to most (285whp) I ran my first two track days bone stock (245whp) and those two days were very educational.

steevo8
02-02-2008, 07:51 PM
I have steelevo's old BFG kdw's and Im going to run those for an event, maybe I can squeeze two out of them. Hopefully that will be enough cause I have two sets of R comps ready to go on..

player67
02-04-2008, 09:57 AM
I hadta throw out my stock pads after my first event...ALL gone

hagakure
02-04-2008, 10:13 AM
I will agree with Bryan on this. Street tires as long as possible, definitely. But regarding pads, the stock pads are shit on a racetrack. Even a mildly upgraded pad helps a bunch, along with good (motul) fluid. I don't see this as a performance issue, just one of comfort and enjoyment. Street tires are much easier on the stock pads if you choose to run them though.




I did about 12 events or so with street tires before upgrading to R's.

At the time I used some HP continentals, BFG KD's and the OG Azenis.

The first set you will probably kill because you will be overdriving the car. By the next set you will be smoother and won't kill them as fast.

I would think that Khumo MX's, BFG KDW or the new Azenis would be a good street tire to use. I actually ran my Evo last year with Azenis 615 for one event. I actually had much more fun because of the different slip angles, plus I wasn't driving as hard as I normally do because I had a lady friend as a passenger and she had never experienced on-track driving before.

People complain all the time about how 615's get greasy. The thing is they don't totally fall off and become hockey pucks or something. They just lose some grip. This is actually good because the car can/will slide more, which is going to get you more comfortable with sliding the car around and you will feel the dynamics of the car much more than if you just had the supreme grip of a R-compound.

Street tires are also much much easier on brakes as well. Just get a decent street tire. Don't get a crappy cheap knock off tire because they probably won't have a good speed rating which could be dangerous.

Pure EvoIX
02-04-2008, 10:22 AM
For those newbies, remember to not pull up the ebrake when you pull into the hotpits to park your car. The brakes gets really really hot even after the cool down lap. So make sure you bring a piece or wood, brick, or some sort of tire choke to prevent car from moving.

player67
02-06-2008, 08:53 AM
For those newbies, remember to not pull up the ebrake when you pull into the hotpits to park your car. The brakes gets really really hot even after the cool down lap. So make sure you bring a piece or wood, brick, or some sort of tire choke to prevent car from moving.


Arent you not supposed to pull the e brake while in the pits?? Like you'll get in trouble anyway?

JDMevoBOOST
02-06-2008, 09:44 AM
Yah do not pull up the ebrake after a session you will cook the pads.

And as for braking for beginners. I found myself braking WAAAAAAY too early when I went to Buttonwillow CCW. Everyone was spinning after the straight on the right hander, so I was trying to be very cautious. I wasn't even threshold braking at first. I was straight up getting on the brakes early hahahaha. All my buddies were like you are getting on it way to early haha. And I was like....ummm start me in the back of the pack so I dont hold you guys up.


Oh I just thought of another thing. If you are not bringing a person with you to watch all of your equipment/tools/spare rims then find a buddy in a different run group so you can watch each others stuff while on trackl.

Although rare, I have heard of people at autoX stealing each others rims off the floor and just driving off.

Pure EvoIX
02-06-2008, 10:20 AM
player67, that is a negative. Like what JDMevoBOOST said, you will definitely cook the pads as you would be waiting around for 30-50min and if your ebrake is up for 6 sessions, i dont think your brake pads will like it.

hagakure
02-06-2008, 10:28 AM
It's ok to brake early as a beginner, and practice moving your braking points up gradually. Just don't DRAG the brakes, get in them and get out, roll on the throttle. Eventually it is good to cultivate the habit of not being fixated on your braking point, but concentrating on your end of braking point, the point where you want to be out of the brakes completely, or to what degree you trail brake into the corner. This is effective in learning to carry more speed through the corner. Indoor Karting is a good place to practice this skill, as it will train your brai to generalize that tendency tot he race track.





Yah do not pull up the ebrake after a session you will cook the pads.

And as for braking for beginners. I found myself braking WAAAAAAY too early when I went to Buttonwillow CCW. Everyone was spinning after the straight on the right hander, so I was trying to be very cautious. I wasn't even threshold braking at first. I was straight up getting on the brakes early hahahaha. All my buddies were like you are getting on it way to early haha. And I was like....ummm start me in the back of the pack so I dont hold you guys up.


Oh I just thought of another thing. If you are not bringing a person with you to watch all of your equipment/tools/spare rims then find a buddy in a different run group so you can watch each others stuff while on trackl.

Although rare, I have heard of people at autoX stealing each others rims off the floor and just driving off.

player67
02-06-2008, 11:42 AM
player67, that is a negative. Like what JDMevoBOOST said, you will definitely cook the pads as you would be waiting around for 30-50min and if your ebrake is up for 6 sessions, i dont think your brake pads will like it.


Sorry my grammar isnt the best I said NOT supposed to.




For those newbies, remember to not pull up the ebrake when you pull into the hotpits to park your car. The brakes gets really really hot even after the cool down lap. So make sure you bring a piece or wood, brick, or some sort of tire choke to prevent car from moving.


Arent you not supposed to pull the e brake while in the pits?? Like you'll get in trouble anyway?


But yeah I was always advised to bring blocks Iono info I got fed back in 2005. I always brought blocks with me anyway

awdaddict
02-06-2008, 03:54 PM
ebrake w hot rotor might warp em.... that's all

heeltoer
02-21-2008, 06:56 PM
-Do NOT run race harnesses without a roll bar w/ a proper harness bar. There are some harnesses deemed okay with just harness bars, but I think there is only one and its the Scroth ones. Sparco/Takata/Sabelt etc are all designed with use of a roll bar. (You can get more info off the NASA web site.) I am not talking about Cusco/safety 21 here either because honestly that's an appearance item. I know you see folks running them to their back seats and using them with only a harness bar and it's not safe.

-Do NOT run fixed back seats without a roll bar - Again this is not deemed safe. You can get this info straight off the Nasa website.



For Norcal NASA events only properly installed Schroth ASM equipped belts are the only 4pt harness allowed.

The internet rumor/ old wives tale about a fixed back seat is that it will keep your body more upright and without roll over protection youll sustain a fatal neck injury. This is much more likely to happen if youre using 4,5,6 pt belt that doesn't have ASM. But you shouldn't be using a 4,5,6 pt belt without at least a roll bar anyways. Race bucket seats with factory 3pt belts is no different from stock seats, your stock seats are not going to give anymore than a race bucket seat in the event of a rollover

Schroth ASM by itself, and/or with race bucket seat has been signed off my the norcal nasa chief scruitineer. Clubs I have gotten explicit OKs from with this setup: ncrc, trackmasters, and redline.

hope this clarifies things.

-heeltoer

redvolution
02-28-2008, 01:00 PM
The e-brake activates a drum brake in the rear, so it's not critical to avoid e-brake use after pulling in. You won't warp the rotors but the drum brake pad might fuse to the hat on the inside of the rear rotor.

I generally drive around a paddock to cool everything off even more and then if I do use the e-brake I only pull up the handle a little bit.

JDMevoBOOST
02-28-2008, 01:18 PM
Race bucket seats with factory 3pt belts is no different from stock seats


-heeltoer



I have to disagree when talking about certain bucket seats. Some of the cheaper seats have high side (thigh) bolsters with no harness holes to thread the stock belt through. The combination of a high thigh bolster and no hole to thread the belt through leads to the lap belt not sitting on the drivers lap, where it should be. Instead there could be a couple inches of gap. I have been told that if the lap belt is not resting on the person, then it is deemed unsafe.

Pure EvoIX
05-25-2008, 12:05 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTnhvEtslRM&NR=1 how not to warm up your tires

steevo8
05-25-2008, 09:01 AM
ROFL!!!

jbfoco
05-25-2008, 09:40 AM
that sucks

AreSTG
05-25-2008, 05:58 PM
all these replies and noone has said don't race drunk or high?

steevo8
05-25-2008, 06:00 PM
all these replies and noone has said don't race drunk or high?


yeah cause that kinda stuff is perfectly fine... No big deal really.

Pure EvoIX
05-26-2008, 12:09 AM
all these replies and noone has said don't race drunk or high?


do you mean dont do this
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MPfxtJ8SQgk :)

jbfoco
05-26-2008, 12:36 AM
all these replies and noone has said don't race drunk or high?


do you mean dont do this
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MPfxtJ8SQgk :)




I just cried....