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JanSolo
01-22-2004, 09:04 AM
I installed my Carbotech Bobcat brake pads yesterday. After reading a few threads over at EvoM (especially Robs), I was hoping that my luck would turn out better.

So far, it's not.

I went with the Carbotech Bobcats since they were marketed as good street pads - which they are. Unfortunately, when they heat up, they seem to make a LOT of noise. At cold bite, they are silent as a ninja and stop you very well, but after a bit of regular braking - not hard braking, they get really annoying. Now, I noticed on the stock Brembo pads that there are some shims to assist in eliminating noise, so I am going to install them on friday to see if they make a difference in noise levels since the stock pads are pretty quiet.

Compared to stock, the Carbotechs stop better and seem to produce a lot less dust. If I can figure out a way to stop the noise, these might be the perfect street pad for the Evos.

JanSolo
01-22-2004, 08:17 PM
The pads definitely make a ton of noise when they are hot. I did a couple brake stands to see how they sound and as they got hotter, more noise. Dust is not that bad yet, which is great. So they beat the Brembo pads on that for sure. But as for brake feel, I would say they are not a ton better than stock. But when they get warm, they still feel like they are braking well as opposed to the stock which I felt required more brake pressure as I braked harder and harder.

howiEVO8
01-22-2004, 08:41 PM
The pads definitely make a ton of noise when they are hot. I did a couple brake stands to see how they sound and as they got hotter, more noise. Dust is not that bad yet, which is great. So they beat the Brembo pads on that for sure. But as for brake feel, I would say they are not a ton better than stock. But when they get warm, they still feel like they are braking well as opposed to the stock which I felt required more brake pressure as I braked harder and harder.

and i was gonna get those too! = x

JanSolo
01-22-2004, 08:53 PM
They aren't BAD pads since they seem to produce less dust and won't fade as much as stock if they get really hot. If you don't do any kind of track racing, these pads are probably worthless for the standard every day driver (except for dusting improvement). And if you are into serious track racing, the Bobcats wouldn't be good enough - you would want to get Panther XPs.

howiEVO8
01-22-2004, 08:57 PM
so are the stock pads mitsu pads or are they some brand name we dont know about?

JanSolo
01-22-2004, 09:00 PM
I believe they are brembo pads. At least that is what I remember them being.

howiEVO8
01-22-2004, 09:08 PM
I believe they are brembo pads. At least that is what I remember them being.

how come the stock rotors didn't come in x-drilled or slotted or both?

JanSolo
01-22-2004, 09:10 PM
Probably don't need them that bad. :) The pads are the weakest link on our brake system.

howiEVO8
01-22-2004, 09:13 PM
Probably don't need them that bad. :) The pads are the weakest link on our brake system.

that and the clutch hehe

vtluu
01-22-2004, 11:45 PM
Drilling will weaken the structure of the rotors, making them vulnerable to cracking and sudden breakage. A rotor breaking is extremely dangerous--imagine driving along and suddenly one of your brakes is locked solid. This would be prone to happening especially when the brakes are under stress, like on a racetrack. :shock: The problem can be prevented by frequent and thorough inspection of the rotors but it's obviously a maintenance hassle.

Better are rotors cast with holes in them. One of my buddies just got the European OEM rotors for his E46 M3 which are like this.

JanSolo
01-23-2004, 12:05 AM
Tonight my brake pads officially pissed me off. They would not stop making noise , squeaking constantly - so much that everyone around me would stop and stare. I am probably going to have to talk to the folks at Carbotech and figure out just what the hell is wrong with my pads.

Stay away from Carbotech pads until further notice. :)

coolguy949
01-23-2004, 04:13 PM
^ What he said..................well, what he typed cause even if he said anything I wouldnt be able to hear him since I think i'm going deaf from my carbotechs.

JanSolo
01-23-2004, 04:14 PM
I talked to Matt at Carbotech who told me that the lack of shims from the OEM pads could be the issue. So I am going to try putting the shims on and hopefully this will make all the difference.

From what I have heard from other people, Carbotech does not even own an Evo - they simply bought the OEM brake pads and clones them using their own substance. While this technique may work generally, the very fact that I am experiencing issues such as this show that they did not do their homework. I'm 180$ poorer, but I've learned a valuable lesson.

vtluu
01-23-2004, 05:56 PM
I asked around and the consensus so far (on solo2.org) is that high-perf brake pads make more noise and what you're experiencing is normal. However I'm still waiting to hear back from one of the Evo owners on that board who has the same pads.

Of course noise is a rather subjective thing so it's hard to say if what you're experiencing is anything out of the ordinary... or not. I guess I'll hear for myself tomorrow.

JanSolo
01-23-2004, 06:19 PM
I asked around and the consensus so far (on solo2.org) is that high-perf brake pads make more noise and what you're experiencing is normal. However I'm still waiting to hear back from one of the Evo owners on that board who has the same pads.

Of course noise is a rather subjective thing so it's hard to say if what you're experiencing is anything out of the ordinary... or not. I guess I'll hear for myself tomorrow.

Sounds like your friends did not read the marketing material from Carbotech for the Bobcat, which specifically says: " Bobcat offers outstanding performance when cold, very low dusting, and low noise with an excellent initial bite." I would hardly describe what I am hearing from my pads as "low noise".

IMHO, the only time I should be experiencing noise and squealing from a pad is if I am running track pads and braking hard, say at a track! These are simply aggressive street pads. And hopefully, the sound won't be there anymore after I install the brake shims that came with the stock pad and the CRC Disk Brake Quiet.

vtluu
01-23-2004, 06:42 PM
IMHO
Note the "O"--opinion. Your opinion of what "low noise" is, my friends', Carbotech's may all be different. On one hand we have Carbotech's claims--but I don't think they made specific quantitative claims (decibels @ specific conditions, etc.). On the other we have your expectations.

I've heard plenty of high-performance street pads that are plenty loud, and no-one--including their owners--made much of this...

What can we objectively say?
1. In terms of noise level, the Bobcats did not meet your level of expectation.
2. The Bobcats are noisier than the OEM pads.

So what's the real question? Here's my take:

Are there brake pads that are quieter but that offer equal or better performance in all other metrics (braking distance, heat tolerance/resistance, etc.)?

If no, then the Bobcats are what they are--choose stopping power or OEM quietness, but not both.

If yes, then do these other pads cost more or less?

If less then obviously, buy them!

If more then you have a decision to make: how much is better but quieter braking worth to you?

ob4
01-23-2004, 07:04 PM
hi jan,

try smoothing out the sharpe edges around the pads, it might help too... let me know how it works out with the factory shims on. i am thinking about getting some panther plus or bobcats... i wonder if hawk hps or ferodo ds2500 will work better.

-terry

coolguy949
01-23-2004, 07:11 PM
carbotech already smooths out the edges when they send the pads.


These pads arent just noisy....they are horrificly astonishingly (add your adverb) noisy. Its defiantely not normal for any brake pad, race or street. It so loud people in the car cover their ears. Not normal at all. Plus, Matt has told me these brake pads should be very quiet if not completely silent.

JanSolo
01-23-2004, 07:43 PM
I out the shims on tonight along with the CRC disk brake quieter. The result?

Nothing changed.

The brakes are still horribly loud. Now I get to work and try to get a refund. I plan on recording an audio clip of this for the guys at Carbotech so they can see how incredibly noisy these things are.

JanSolo
01-23-2004, 07:45 PM
carbotech already smooths out the edges when they send the pads.


These pads arent just noisy....they are horrificly astonishingly (add your adverb) noisy. Its defiantely not normal for any brake pad, race or street. It so loud people in the car cover their ears. Not normal at all. Plus, Matt has told me these brake pads should be very quiet if not completely silent.

Matt told me the same thing - these should make no noise at all. He said they should be like OEM, but produce less dust and better bite. The bite is a bit better, it definitely produces less dust, but the noise is unbearable.

Back to OEM I go.

ob4
01-24-2004, 03:33 AM
i guess i will stay away from the bobcats then.... thanks for the great info guys... so any replacement pads suggestions? i am thinking about hawk hps or ferodo ds2500, or maybe even ds3000

vtluu
01-24-2004, 10:29 AM
I dunno, some people have had little/no problem with Bobcats... But it seems such a crapshoot whether or not they'll cause problems that I would stay away from them myself, until Carbotech figures out what the problem is...

JanSolo
01-24-2004, 10:34 AM
Everyone I know that has Bobcats has had no problems with them. Of course, none of them have Evos and none of them have big rotors and calipers like we do.

So the Bobcats might be fine for other cars with smaller brakes, just not the Evo.

howiEVO8
01-24-2004, 02:52 PM
Everyone I know that has Bobcats has had no problems with them. Of course, none of them have Evos and none of them have big rotors and calipers like we do.

So the Bobcats might be fine for other cars with smaller brakes, just not the Evo.

sounds like the works evo :)

JanSolo
01-24-2004, 10:50 PM
I think my brake squeals are louder than theirs. David told me that they probably don't have any brake pads left on the Works Evo. :shock:

vtluu
01-24-2004, 11:47 PM
I think my brake squeals are louder than theirs. David told me that they probably don't have any brake pads left on the Works Evo. :shock:
Bah, brakes only make you go slower. Who needs 'em? :lol:

chris
01-26-2004, 12:19 PM
haha. jan it sounds bad :eek:

JanSolo
01-26-2004, 02:23 PM
haha. jan it sounds bad :eek:

Hell yeah it does. Today during lunch, I was driving and I ended up scaring some old ladies with the noise it was making. I think I am gonna call Carbotech and ask for refund. No one should pay brake pads that make this kind of horrific screech.

coolguy949
01-26-2004, 02:31 PM
Mine were suprisingly silent during the socalevo meet.

Too bad I cant test them anymore though.....my turbo blew on my way home so my car is sitting at the dealer getting a new turbo put in under warranty.

JanSolo
01-26-2004, 02:44 PM
Here is what I posted over at EvoM today (http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59954).

----

I talked to Larry over at Carbotech and basically he says there is nothing they can do. The refuse to give me a refund for what I would term as a defective brake pad. You can disagree, but if you look at this page (http://www.carbotecheng.com/prod-ct-compounds.htm), it clearly states that the Bobcat "offers outstanding performance when cold, very low dusting, and low noise with an excellent initial bite." Clearly this is not the case and reality specifically goes against their false marketing claims.

I offered to make a movie clip of the noise that these pads produced on my Evo, but they flatly refused stating that they were aware of what brake noise is.

So, what have we learned? Clearly, Carbotech Bobcats are THE PAD to stay away from for any car that has large brake rotors, like the STI and especially the Evo8. In fact, go with ANYTHING other than Carbotech brake pads for the Evo and you will probably be a lot happier and won't waste money on a product that was clearly not designed for the Evo. Sure, they can buy OEM brake pads and dupe the layout and measurements, but it is clear that they never tested the product themselves on an Evo.

Off to Ferrodos I go.

STAY AWAY FROM CARBOTECH PADS FOR THE EVO8.

ob4
01-26-2004, 02:51 PM
hi jan,

on the dyno day, i've asked shiv about the pads used on their shop evo, looks like they are using ferrodo, but he was not sure what compond he is using... let me know the results after you've switched to ferrodo. btw, what compond do you plan to get for the ferrodos? ds2500 or ds3000?

thx,
ob4

vtluu
01-26-2004, 02:56 PM
Are you sure the noise won't just go away by itself after you've put a bit more wear on the pads? I.e. maybe the noise is due to the pad not contacting fully? Dunno... wouldn't want to see you spend more money if patience could solve the problem. :)

coolguy949
01-26-2004, 02:59 PM
There's a simple solution to all this......just never buy Carbotechs. No need to wonder if this is an isolated case. There are so many other good pads for the evo, no need to stay hun gup on these. Mine are getting quieter, but I need my car back in order to really know.

I drove some ferodos and i'm sold on what i'm getting for my next pad

howiEVO8
01-26-2004, 03:46 PM
There's a simple solution to all this......just never buy Carbotechs. No need to wonder if this is an isolated case. There are so many other good pads for the evo, no need to stay hun gup on these. Mine are getting quieter, but I need my car back in order to really know.

I drove some ferodos and i'm sold on what i'm getting for my next pad

ferodos...hehe...that's what im gettting next, i think? cuz i've read and heard a lot of good things 'bout them...hopefully they perform really well and are quiet as well :)

coolguy949
01-26-2004, 05:49 PM
We have figured it out.

The Bobcat friction material has a coefficient of friction that is too high for the EVO system. Because the coefficient is high, you need little clamping force to effectively stop the car on the street. The rotor begins to vibrate because there is not sufficient clamping force to prevcent it from vibrating. This vibration is what you hear as noise. This is *exactly* the same thing that happens when a wine glass resonates when you rub your finger on the rim. If the noise goes away with increased pedal pressure (more clamping force), this is absolutely what is going on.

We've tried chamfering the pads.
We've recommended re-using the OE shims.
We've recommended using disc-brake quiet goop.
Nothing works for the EVO system.

The only other solution is to make a low friction coefficient brake pad that requires a higher clamping force to generate the same brake torque. We aren't going to do that. We spent 2 years developing Bobcat. We can't invest the time/money to do that for one brake system.

howiEVO8
01-26-2004, 05:52 PM
awww pooie...so what is he saying? our evo braking system sucks? or is it too good? hehe

JanSolo
01-26-2004, 06:06 PM
He is saying that if you bought the Bobcats, there are no refunds and they won't offer you any other brake pads they make. They have no customer service or customer loyalty.

Pass on Carbotech and you'll be just fine.

howiEVO8
01-26-2004, 06:09 PM
He is saying that if you bought the Bobcats, there are no refunds and they won't offer you any other brake pads they make. They have no customer service or customer loyalty.

Pass on Carbotech and you'll be just fine.

haha like that??!?

JanSolo
01-26-2004, 06:11 PM
He is saying that if you bought the Bobcats, there are no refunds and they won't offer you any other brake pads they make. They have no customer service or customer loyalty.

Pass on Carbotech and you'll be just fine.

haha like that??!?

Here is what he literally said:

"That's fine. We'll just pull the Bobcat pads for the EVO off the market then."

He is not addressing customer issues, he is not trying to say they are sorry and asking how they can fix the issue. They are just saying "fine, no more pads for you guys".

howiEVO8
01-26-2004, 06:13 PM
bah they should have tested them out first before even putting them on the market to begin with...

JanSolo
01-27-2004, 09:57 PM
I made a video of the Bobcats on my car (http://www.jansolo.org/videos/BobcatScreech.AVI) with my wife's Casio digital camera. Not high quality, but you get the point.

howiEVO8
01-27-2004, 10:07 PM
yeah i was playing that on the speakers and my customers were like WTF is that?! That's hella annoying lolz

coolguy949
02-01-2004, 12:24 PM
Jan, wait til you see what Matt from carbotech just said. All I can say is WOW.



comment maddmatt?


Yeah, I think you're full of shit.


if i do like 3X 120-20 breaking, u will hear this loud metal rubbing against metal sound and the brake seem to overheat

You do this on the street? 120 mph on the street? Um...OK, just wanted to establish your intelligence.


and if i finish going to a car wash, the brake will be non-exist for 10min because water get in between the pads and rotor,

So our pads magically keep water between themselves and the rotor for 10 minutes, correct?


and the pads are not friendly to rotor,

Horseshit! Ceramics are PROVEN to be extremely rotor friendly.


me and my friend go to tracks a lot and he use to be a in a race team, he say the pads sucks too

I tell you what, why don't you call the 4 different guys that won 4 SCCA NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS last year with Carbotech pads and tell them that they suck.


am not even brother talking to carbontech

Good, please don't. And it's spelled CARBOTECH, assclown. If you're gonna bash me like a $20 whore, at least spell it right.


hi everyone, i don't post much but i have to this time, i have a set of bobcats for my evo frnt and back, IMO, is worst then the stock pads, the loud noise is nothing i have heard before in other cars, if i do like 3X 120-20 breaking, u will hear this loud metal rubbing against metal sound and the brake seem to overheat, and if i finish going to a car wash, the brake will be non-exist for 10min because water get in between the pads and rotor, and the pads are not friendly to rotor, is eating my stock rotor up like carzy, i donno if i got a defected pads or not, but is not normal i can tell u, me and my friend go to tracks a lot and he use to be a in a race team, he say the pads sucks too, i am now looking for new pads and i am not even brother talking to carbontech knowing what they r going to say from what i have heard on the broad, the bottom line is they r pulling the pads off the market for the evo, therefor is must be something wrong with it and it didn't proform like was it advertised, low brake noise, low dust and friendly to the stock rotor.


My GOD man that's way over 200 words and only ONE PERIOD. Congrats, that's the longest run-on sentence I've ever seen. Your high school English teacher should be fired.

That's it, I've had enough of this fucking shit. All: Do not bother calling about refund or exchange. NOT GONNA HAPPEN after bullshit like this. The pads are off the market.


This harm might be permanent.

Done.

Have fun pissing off the rest of the aftermarket vendors. Seems there's a history of that here.

Out!

howiEVO8
02-01-2004, 01:40 PM
oh wow.....

warpspeed
02-01-2004, 01:57 PM
When I heard that noise, I cringed. But it reminded me of the same noises that I delt with as a mechanic back in the days. I found out when you change pad, you have to check the rotors if they have a "glazed" look on them. If they do, then the pads has a too smooth of a surface to clamp on to and that is where the noise happens. The brakes has to have a "rough" surface to clamp on too. Example: have you ever try to glue or epoxy something together and the direction say to "roughen" the surface for good contact. It's kinda like that. If the rotors are "glazed" it is too smooth and that is where the noise come from. I know nowadays when people change their brakes, they just change the pads without examining the rotors. Because if you do alot of hard breaking, you will run into the situation of your rotor being "glazed"

Hope this helps with brake noises.

vtluu
02-01-2004, 06:38 PM
Jan, wait til you see what Matt from carbotech just said. All I can say is WOW.
:shock: Okay well I guess that settles it, no Carbotechs for me! :yikes:

JanSolo
02-01-2004, 07:20 PM
That was an amazing comment from an amazing man. Matt truly hates when things don't go his way. He can bitch and moan about how much he hates EBC and how they are useless crap, but as soon as someone says one negative thing about his product, then he raises a stink and throw a temper tantrum.

Anyhow, I pulled off my Bobcats today and I noticed a few things.

1. They produced more dust than the Brembo pads. My calipers were literally covered with brake dust. Oops! Yet another marketing claim that was untrue and inaccurate. Carbotech just keeps on lying to their public, or to quote the bible "bearing false witness".
2. They stopped a lot better than the Brembo pads. This pisses me off moreso since I really, really wanted the Bobcats to be good pads.
3. My braking is very quiet - stealthy and ninja like. Every brake pad should be this noise free.

DB8GSR
02-02-2004, 11:30 AM
I made a video of the Bobcats on my car (http://www.jansolo.org/videos/BobcatScreech.AVI)

That sounds horrible. That's definitely a head turner! :shock: :?