heel-toe/rev-match

[thomas]

sup fellas,

i know some of y'all use heel/toe and rev matching. i kno i do, on the street (never been on the track with evo, yet), but juss seeing if anybody else does.

of course, some of yous are gonna say, "why would you use heel/toe on the street?" so heres what im gonna reply, "because every time i sit in my evo, its an ultimate driving experience. and with that, i like to perfect and practice my skills as a driver, including, but not limited to, launching, shifting and turning..." so yea...

dont worry guys, ill be seeing some of you at the track soon enough.

just fyi, i learned by watching videos and lotsa practice, so hopefully ill have professional criticism to add to it. :lol:

[howiEVO8]

sup fellas,

i know some of y'all use heel/toe and rev matching. i kno i do, on the street (never been on the track with evo, yet), but juss seeing if anybody else does.

of course, some of yous are gonna say, "why would you use heel/toe on the street?" so heres what im gonna reply, "because every time i sit in my evo, its an ultimate driving experience. and with that, i like to perfect and practice my skills as a driver, including, but not limited to, launching, shifting and turning..." so yea...

dont worry guys, ill be seeing some of you at the track soon enough.

just fyi, i learned by watching videos and lotsa practice, so hopefully ill have professional criticism to add to it. :lol:

i have vids of it....and how to do so maybe i should bust out that DVD! woohoo! hehe

[nebolic]

tommy, i'll teach you now to do heel toe when we meet up next.

[thomas]

tommy, i'll teach you now to do heel toe when we meet up next.

hahaha, you read my post wrong. i use it, and was asking if anybody else did. :wink:

thx for the offer 8)

[howiEVO8]

tommy, i'll teach you now to do heel toe when we meet up next.

hahaha, you read my post wrong. i use it, and was asking if anybody else did. :wink:

thx for the offer 8)

hahaha how bout u show me....in your evo?

[nebolic]

hahaa my bad, but yeah i'll show you ;-) btw they teach you all these driving techniques in Europe when you learn how to drive.

[leif]

i do. i gotta downshift on the street just like i wud on a track, and its just smoother...

[vtluu]

I use heel-toe going into turns and practice it when stopping at red lights. Also, I rev-match/blip the throttle whenever downshifting. If you're at the edge of traction a rough downshift can cause you to break loose (seen that 350Z vid?). Granted I'm rarely near the "edge" when driving on the street, but that makes it that much safer to practice for when I am.

There's a pretty good heel-toe tutorial at http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving/driving_heeltoe.lasso

[ez76]

Do you experts downshift through every gear or go directly to your target gear after braking first?

[vtluu]

The rev difference when downshifting by more than one gear is obvious bigger so rev-matching is more difficult. I think it really depends how hard you're braking/how fast you're slowing down. On a turn I imagine you want to hit the gear that you'll need to go fast out of that turn. If I'm slowing down gradually and can't anticipate when exactly I'll need to speed up again (for example driving in moderate traffic) I'll downshift through each gear. For example, coming gradually to a red light, I'll downshift through each gear (except 1st) in case the light turns green before I come to a complete stop.

Definitely wouldn't call myself an expert though. TurnFast.com has some tips on shifting as well: http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving/driving_shifting.lasso

[halz]

http://standardshift.com/videos.html

Here are some videos of a guy with an in-car (Ooo.. BMW M5) camera talking, and showing how it can be done. You can keep an eye on his keys to see how hes doing with the shifting; ideally, there shouldn't be any movement at all in the keys when he shifts. Personally, I think the videos could be a little more compelling :)


Something I've taken to doing is double clutching everything.. down-shifts and up-shifts. Yeah, very Fast and Furious of me, I know.. But what really got me started doing this was discovering that I could get 100% reliable shifts with no upsetting motions to the drivetrain, and that I was ultimately able to even shift faster and more 'aggressively' than if I didn't double clutch at all.. maybe its just my antiquated transmission and clutch from 1989 and the short-throw shifter thats given me this view.

...something else thats worth a look, is shifting without the clutch; up and down! I'll digress into a personal account: driving Bear Creek road off of HWY 17 with a little less than 2 hours of sleep the night before, coming up to a turn and completely subconsciously downshifting into 2nd gear without the clutch. Hard to convey the feeling that was; pulling off a clutch-less shift when there was a tree at the turn 'apex' and a rocky wall on the outside without making the arangements in my head prior... But apparently, my body decided it would be better off bracing itself with its left foot on the kick-plate rather than acuating the clutch.

[vtluu]

IMO, double-clutching is (literally) a waste of time if you have a car with synchros. (Working synchros that is; for a while I had to double-clutch to get myself to 5th gear without grinding, until the synchro got fixed.) You can do rev-matching both ways but generally it will make much more of a difference on the downshift.

To quote Bryan Cohn from solo2.org, former Skip Barber instructor:


Ok, I'd like to get to the bottom of this shifty subject:

The double clutch method of shifting applies to no syncro crash box's, of which there are very few in the real world anymore. Big Trucks, tractors, etc. may still have them, but that's about it. We used to teach double clutch downshifting at Skippy Barber back when I taught there ('90 thru '95). In a race car with a dog ring box, it's is even more of a waste of time.

And that, my friends is the heart of the matter:
TIME.
It takes a LOOOOOOOONG time to double clutch downshift, time that you don't have while racing, whatever the venue.

Here is how we used to teach it;
Foot off throttle, apply brakes, clutch in, move shift lever to neutral, with heel of foot blip throttle(while keeping the same pressure on the brake pedal, after all, we are trying to slow down!), move shift lever to desired gear, blip throttle again, release clutch pedal and finish braking/or accelerate thru corner/or spin into the weeds cause this is just to much to do in such a short *^%$#^& time!

Wanna know what my drivers school instructor told me in 1985? Brakes are for stopping. Gas pedal and gears are for going fast. The round thing is for changing direction. Use them wisely!!!

Here is how I shift the FF:
Full throttle, mash the brakes, stuff it in the desired gear, turn the sterring wheel in the proper direction, stomp on throttle, and get the blinkin' hell on to the next turn!

On the plus side, some lucky repair shop will be doing a clutch job on a Vibe at about 15,000 miles! Does PFM do those? :)

[halz]

I could still consider double clutching valuable and practical for a car that is out of warranty, a foriegn car that doesn't belong to the driver, or for any sort of high-load/performance driving where there is no cash prize to be won... and the car needs to get back home before Monday
But sure, which ever way the transmission is in gear as fast as possible is inherently the 'fastest'

[s13chica]

sob sob sob...I'm not cool enough to get to do this whole heel-toe thing...MY FEET ARE TOO SMALL!!! It's so sad....oh well...time to get wider pedals I guess :)

[vtluu]

sob sob sob...I'm not cool enough to get to do this whole heel-toe thing...MY FEET ARE TOO SMALL!!! It's so sad....oh well...time to get wider pedals I guess :)
... or wider feet. People get surgery done for all kinds of reasons these days, so why not? :lol:

[thomas]

sob sob sob...I'm not cool enough to get to do this whole heel-toe thing...MY FEET ARE TOO SMALL!!! It's so sad....oh well...time to get wider pedals I guess :)

sweetie, be happy you have small feet...cause if you had big feet we would all end up calling you BIGFOOT. haha, j/k :wink:

look forward to seeing your "pink" sil80.

[RTS EVO VIII]

double clutching = less wear & tear on the engine mount.

[hagakure]

Double clutching is effective, but much slower on the track. To drive as fluently and efficiently as possible on the track, it is well worth the time to master "heel-toe". you find that you upset the chasis much less, are better able to balance the car before turning in upon entry. Awkward at first, but then becomes like any other kinetic, learned athletic excercise.


Percy

[ayn]

i heel-toe all the times, it's just natural, and it sounds cool in the evo... double-clutch, i do it most of the time on the streets, easier on the synchros, almost always double-clutch if i ever have to downshift to 1st, like when im approaching a stop light that is red, but it turns green before I completely stop, and im slow enough to want 1st instead of 2nd... :) at the track, i hardly DC, but heel toe is a must... I know some people who's fast enough to DC at the track, it's kindda cool...

[missred]

I myself do the same while driving on the street, rev-matching and heel and toe..although I have not gone to the track yet, I believe practice makes perfect. when I do go to the track or autoX Im definitly inquiring with many of you to critique my technique...

[dohcvtec]

I myself do the same while driving on the street, rev-matching and heel and toe..although I have not gone to the track yet, I believe practice makes perfect. when I do go to the track or autoX Im definitly inquiring with many of you to critique my technique...
First few times on the track heel-toeing will be the last thing on your mind. :)

[EvoRicer]

Hey sorry just want to make sure im on the right page, Double-Clutch is when your almost at redline or watever, you hit the clutch, rpms jump and you shift right when it hits rev limit right? Can someone explain heel/toe too? :D Hey Thomas where do you go practice your drving skills at? parking lots? I live in Sac too and Dont kno any good empty lots where the Popos arent hiding out at...

[dohcvtec]

that is not double clutch

[missred]

Double clutching is effective, but much slower on the track. To drive as fluently and efficiently as possible on the track, it is well worth the time to master "heel-toe". you find that you upset the chasis much less, are better able to balance the car before turning in upon entry. Awkward at first, but then becomes like any other kinetic, learned athletic excercise.


Percy

So how many track days did it take for you to get comfortable with the heel and toe?

[DB8GSR]

I dug up some old video that I compiled a while back and shows you a good example how heel/toe and double clutch is done at the track. Keep watching the footwork these drivers are doing and the heel/toe combo shift is within half of the video. Until you get to 1:40 in the video, double clutch is done and it's done fast.

Here's the video dedicated to dohcvtec :wink: :
http://d5.yousendit.com/F/2Q1TV36TAM1440JGXGFF34GPQI/DC2RvsDC5R.wmv


Double Clutch
Car in gear > clutch in > put gear to neutral > clutch out > clutch in > engage next gear > clutch out

Heel/Toe = Rev match


btw... i use heel/toe everyday or whenever I drive the Evo or any other manual car I get a hold of. Having a perfect heel/toe shift will vary from the persons foot size. The distance of the brake and gas pedals will have an impact depending on your foot size. The Honda StooK to me has the best feel, smooth heel/toe I've done because of the small foot size I have and the pedals were right next to each other. :wink: My friends '05 C230 Kompressor was one of the hardest heel/toe I've done because of brake and gas pedal distance which were too far apart. :?

[EvoRicer]

that is not double clutch

Wats double clutch then? Some people at the raceway told me that was double clutch... :lol:

[vtluu]

Wats double clutch then?
What DB8GSR said. Useful for babying your synchros when downshifting or avoiding grinding when shifting after you've failed to baby your synchros. :lol:

No-one on a racetrack double-clutches if they can help it--it's slow (doubles or triples your shift time). Just use the synchros (if they work) or get a dogbox and jam it into gear and forget about it.

For a nice example of heel-toe and (especially) left-foot braking, check out this old-school Audi rally video: mms://a178.v096910.c9691.e.vc.akamaistream.net/7/178/9691/v0009/audi.download.akamai.com/9691/history/04_mh/07_rallye_physik_b.wmv

[MitsuMan]

I can barely do it with my size 13's. I think I need a big ass brake pedal like Boris Said maybe I sit too close

[methods4]

So how many track days did it take for you to get comfortable with the heel and toe?

It's hard to explain. I never had to "get comfortable" with it while on the racetrack because I do it on the street everyday. It becomes natural to heel/toe so you don't even think about. Kinda like using the clutch or shifting into a gear. You don't think about it, it just happens. I don't advise practicing heel/toe on the racetrack until it becomes 2nd nature to you. Plenty of other stuff to concentrate on.

[methods4]

I can barely do it with my size 13's. I think I need a big ass brake pedal like Boris Said maybe I sit too close

You're saying you need a bigger brake pedal to heel/toe? :methods4:

[vtluu]

I can do it and I wear size 8. The key is to keep the ball of your foot on the brake and really turn your foot around and blip the throttle with your heel. I found that wearing Puma Speedcats really helped improve my heel-toe technique. I used to blip the throttle with the right side of my foot but I found this had two problems: my foot was only partly on the brake (size 8 remember), and I didn't have good precise control of blipping the throttle with the side of my foot. The Puma's narrow sole forced me to get my foot turned around and I found it was easier to make the sharp jabs at the throttle needed to rev-match.

Another thing I found is that while you can practice heel-toe when rolling to a stop at a stop light, it's not quite the same as doing heel-toe while braking for a turn on the racetrack. On the track the revs are much higher and you brake much harder and hold the brake longer before blipping and shifting.

[earlyapex]

I can barely do it with my size 13's. I think I need a big ass brake pedal like Boris Said maybe I sit too close

No that means you are doing it wrong. A kid with size 3 shoes could do it if he knew the technique. No way in hell anyone cannot do it unless the brake and throttle where a foot apart, which they aren't.

It really is *heel* and *toe*. Toe or toe cushion part of your foot on the brake, heel on the gas, so your foot is sideways, you don't use the sides of your foot for both pedals.

[hphan]

dumb question, but doesn't heel/toe waste more gas as opposed to just braking?

[MarkSAE]

I got heel/toe downshifts down a lot better after my 2nd track day. I wouldn't advise practicing it for your first track event or two until you learn the basics of being safe on the track.

Prior to my first two track events, I practiced heel/toe on the street in my civic. It was easier to learn on my civic since the pedals are closer together compared to my evo. I started noticing it becoming second nature to me after a while after practicing it lap after lap on the track. Cool stuff.. I still need more practice though to be able to do it faster.

[dohcvtec]

Prior to my first two track events, I practiced heel/toe on the street in my civic. It was easier to learn on my civic since the pedals are closer together compared to my evo. I started noticing it becoming second nature to me after a while after practicing it lap after lap on the track. Cool stuff.. I still need more practice though to be able to do it faster.
Same here and I have developed the bad habit of "fat foot" instead of true heel toe from tracking the Honda.

[MarkSAE]

haha.. yeah, when I was first learning, I found it really hard to do in my evo. In the civic, I could just roll my ankle over and it would blip the gas pedal.

[ZK]

Actually, you don't always have to rotate the whole foot out to blip the throttle to heel toe downshift. A fast way to do it is to have your right foot partly on the brake and just use the right side of the top of your foot to tap the throttle. I still use the whole foot method but it can usually be done this way as well.

As far as practice, I just toe heel downshift everywhere I go when I am slowing down - corners, coming to a stop light etc. After a while it is a normal thing when you are driving. The hardest to get is the toe heel into 1st. If you can do that smoothly, you're doing pretty good. :)

[nightwalker]

I've used heel-toe downshifts for years. It feels weird to drive not doing it. It's much easier on your drive train. I don't feel the need to downshift through every gear though. Just find the gear that matches the speed.

I think the hardest part of doing heel-toe is maintaining and still being able to modulate braking pressure all the while blipping the throttle to match your trans rpm.

The guys who are good at this stuff do it and you won't even feel it if you were riding in the car. It's phenomenal.

[MitsuMan]

I can barely do it with my size 13's. I think I need a big ass brake pedal like Boris Said maybe I sit too close

You're saying you need a bigger brake pedal to heel/toe? :methods4:
well I'm told it certainly can make it easier so you don't have to twist your foot so much what you never heard of that or something?

[ayn]

oh also, for DC, you can do it without pressing the clutch twice, if you do it right you should be able to move the shifter into neutral without using the clutch... You can do it easily at the track under braking, or on the streets, you can do it right at the point when your engine is doing neither driving or braking (like right after you lift off the throttle, and before it starts engine-braking)...

--Andrew

[craziazzmofo66]

So how many track days did it take for you to get comfortable with the heel and toe?

It's hard to explain. I never had to "get comfortable" with it while on the racetrack because I do it on the street everyday. It becomes natural to heel/toe so you don't even think about. Kinda like using the clutch or shifting into a gear. You don't think about it, it just happens. I don't advise practicing heel/toe on the racetrack until it becomes 2nd nature to you. Plenty of other stuff to concentrate on.

:werd:

[craziazzmofo66]

I can barely do it with my size 13's. I think I need a big ass brake pedal like Boris Said maybe I sit too close

yea...try sittin a hair further back. my 6'3 with size 11.5 friend in his datsun 510 was always tellin me he couldnt do it (the car doesnt really have a gas pedel...just the bar...so imagine how far the pedels r apart) but he was complainin that his legs r too long and his ankel couldnt roll that way..wah...wah....so i was like...try sittin further if ur feel like ur too cramped up...and BAM!! he was heel toein in no time!!

[EVILutionVIII]

I just toe heel downshift everywhere I go when I am slowing down - corners, coming to a stop light etc. After a while it is a normal thing when you are driving. :)

+1

[hagakure]

The biggest issue with heel toe downshifting is not the physical articulation of the ankle, blipping the throttle, etc...it's timing and pressure, so the shift is seamless. Like many other physical/timing excercises there are many different approaches to the sequence, some race drivers even complete the shift first, then blip the throttle, etc...but what is key is matching the revs appropriately. You can do all the blipping you want and still not be in the appropriate rev range. The issue with it is to learn to do it so you are actually improving your balanced entry into a corner, and not so that you have picked up a "cool car thing" for your smack talking arsenal..."I can Heel toe just like the guys in the best motoring vids, etc.."
Of course I'm not claining anyone on these boards would have the aforementioned reason for doing it :roll:

P

[EFIxMR]

the evo is the easiest car to heel toe on. i wouldnt try to learn it on an evo though.

i learned on my honda accord.

[vtluu]

The pedals in my Miata are well-placed for heel-toe as well. I think it requires a bit more finesse to heel-toe at low speeds than the Evo--in the Evo you really want to give the throttle a good jab; the Miata needs very light blips of the throttle if you're downshifting coming up to a stop.

I had a really difficult time heel-toeing in my dad's Mazda 6. I don't know if it has an electronic throttle or what, but the throttle response is slowwwww--hit the pedal and you only get revs a half-second later. Makes it difficult to time the throttle blips. The pedals were also far from ideal; I think the brake pedal was too far forward relative to the throttle and I couldn't contort my foot enough to give the throttle a good jab while lightly applying brakes.

[ustcc evo]

I was amused by the quote from the race instructor, as what he was saying was entirely true, but spoken from the perspective of someone who has never paid for their own transmission rebuild. I double clutch everywhere, but only to extend the life of the transmission.

I raced with people in GTI Cup who replaced their transmissions more than once per year, while I raced three seasons on the same transmission with no failures at all. The only difference was double clutching.