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View Full Version : When to let off the brake?



awdaddict
05-27-2008, 03:51 PM
What is the secret?

The problem is not how hard or how soft to push on the pedal.

If there are not indicators for the braking zone on the track.
When do you let off the brake and turn in?

steevo8
05-27-2008, 04:16 PM
when your ready to stop slowing down

jbfoco
05-27-2008, 04:38 PM
I dont use brake markers ...

To me when you have to focus on brake markers ... Turn in points... Exit... Looking at horision points you start to connect the dots too much and u get overwhelmed.

I do everything off feel. My laps are very consistant.


Tons of people disagree with that and have very good points. But it comes down to you.

awdaddict
05-27-2008, 04:43 PM
I dont use brake markers ...

To me when you have to focus on brake markers ... Turn in points... Exit... Looking at horision points you start to connect the dots too much and u get overwhelmed.

I do everything off feel. My laps are very consistant.


Tons of people disagree with that and have very good points. But it comes down to you.


Oh, interesting.
Well I've been just looking at the brake markers and just turn in where I feel is the right part.
I guess I'm doing most on feel as well.
N, since your laps are consistant... you have a good feel then!
I don't think my feel would be as good as yours.
So I just want to see if there's any systematic way of doing/ learning so.

jbfoco
05-27-2008, 04:54 PM
There are also different ways to brake.

I ve grown acustom to breaking sooner and driving through the corner, not having abs contributed. Where as sean (smack) drives much deeper into the corners with his abs and alcons. He turns on the front of the car, transfering the weight forward. Where as I come into the corner set and accelerating, comming into the turn as the suspension is made to work best.

I couldnt tell u which would be faster if we were driving the same car. But sean is faster.

AreSTG
05-27-2008, 04:57 PM
get a miata, problem solved ;)

uhoh_evo
05-27-2008, 06:51 PM
My first reaction was exactly like Steve's. But in real life I drive like Josh. I don't track er anything but I prefer to let off the throttle sooner so I don't really brake and use acceleration to make it thru 3/4's of the turn.

Of course this is a lot slower in town but for example if i'm gonna turn left er right and makin it thru a stop light before it turns red.

overdrive
05-27-2008, 07:54 PM
It really depends on what car you drive. If you have a car with ABS, AYC, etc, you can brake pretty late into a turn. The size of the car also matters. Smaller cars such as miatas, elises and exiges allow the driver to brake pretty late in a corner or turn. Try doing that with a viper or a zo6.

Driving an AE86 or any other car with no ABS is a completely different story. You have to brake a lot sooner than you think.

evosti
05-27-2008, 10:13 PM
I drift through the corners and live my life a quarter mile at a time :)

DoggDicker
05-28-2008, 04:27 AM
^Alrighty F&F...:lol:

DD

steevo8
05-28-2008, 08:42 AM
Although theres really not a lot of useful info in here I really think that braking is something thats over looked by a lot of people. The thing that I feel is most important though is using the brake to manipulate the car. The brakes can help a car rotate and also help a car tighten a line, it just depends on how you use them. How and where you brake is all dependent on how your car handles. Last time out my car pushed real hard and my ride height was a major contributer to that, because of that I was forced to trail brake harder then I wished to in order to get the car to rotate.

What some people forget is that going fast is all about balancing things and using everything thats readily available to you at the moment, and using your brakes improperly can make you or brake you in a corner if you let them mess up the balance of the car. Coming from bikes, where the consequences are much larger and the effects of poor braking are much easier to see, the thing I feel is most important about braking is the transition from being on the brakes to getting back on the gas. Thats the point in which your really setting the ton for the corner. If you come off the brakes real abrupt and get on the gas real hard your suspension is never going to want to take set and your available traction is going to be greatly lacking.


So in theory I guess what Im trying to say is that you shouldnt really focus on breaking hard and deep into a corner, but rather focus on keeping your car stable and balanced because theres a lot more time to be made up getting on the gas sooner and taking the corner properly then there is late braking. As for me and what I do, I brake deep into a corner and then mash the gas as hard as possible cause it feels cool when the car is loose and slides around :lol:

DetailAddict
05-28-2008, 09:00 AM
not a big track guy... but i find late/trail braking fun... then use the pedals to control the weight shifting, which controls the under/oversteer... always squeeze the pedals and let off slow and smooth... I think that matters more than knowing 'when'...

ZK
05-28-2008, 09:34 AM
I try to brake in a straight line as late as I can without blowing the line through the corner. Slow in - fast out works.

If the car is understeering and I went in too hot, I will try to correct with some trail braking to rotate the car. I usually don't like to do this as you want to do all your braking before the corner and be on the throttle through the corner. It can also cause a spin if you mess up.

jbfoco
05-28-2008, 09:43 AM
slow in fast out may work but its not FAST.

Fast in fast out.

jbfoco
05-28-2008, 09:53 AM
idealy you want to enter as fast as the "car" is capable and exit as fast ss the "car" is capable

The hard part is the "driver" doing what the car is capable on entrance and exit.

That's where slow in fast out comes in... Its much easier to enter slower than the "car" is capable and exit closer to the "cars" capabilities. Its a great way to go if "drivers" skills are not up to par with the "cars" capabilities. Its a good way to start and work up ... But its not fast.

steevo8
05-28-2008, 10:32 AM
there really is no cut and dry way to brake. Your job as the driver is to give your car what it asks. Like josh said, slow in fast out doesn't make for fast times and part of being fast in and fast out is learning what you the driver need to tell the car to do, and when in doubt.... Floor it :D

ZK
05-28-2008, 10:45 AM
idealy you want to enter as fast as the "car" is capable and exit as fast ss the "car" is capable

The hard part is the "driver" doing what the car is capable on entrance and exit.

That's where slow in fast out comes in... Its much easier to enter slower than the "car" is capable and exit closer to the "cars" capabilities. Its a great way to go if "drivers" skills are not up to par with the "cars" capabilities. Its a good way to start and work up ... But its not fast.


I instruct beginners and that is what I teach people. It is always better to teach safety rather than going drifto through corners on their track day.

In my 8 years of track driving, I drive this way as my car is my daily driver and only car. If I go off, it can pretty much ruin everything for me as well as for others. If you have a dedicated track car - it is a different story.

That is exactly why I do not like running with groups like NASA which have track-only cars running with stock street cars side by side - some people have more at stake than others.

When I say "slow in" I mean going in as fast as you are capable of - not going in too hot that you need mid corner corrections. Lifting throttle, braking etc. all scrub speed off. You're better off going in and accelerating through the corner.

Of course there are different driving styles, I tend to go on the side of safety rather than lap times.

jbfoco
05-28-2008, 11:27 AM
well said zk I completely agree.

But there are different run groups in NASA, there are few track only cars in hpde. But in TT that's a different story. Even in TT we drive safely for fast lap times. Its not a trade off both can be done. We in TT have the fewest incidents out of all of NASA.

awdaddict
05-28-2008, 11:27 AM
idealy you want to enter as fast as the "car" is capable and exit as fast ss the "car" is capable

The hard part is the "driver" doing what the car is capable on entrance and exit.

That's where slow in fast out comes in... Its much easier to enter slower than the "car" is capable and exit closer to the "cars" capabilities. Its a great way to go if "drivers" skills are not up to par with the "cars" capabilities. Its a good way to start and work up ... But its not fast.


I think that's me :(

I don't like NASA either... too many cars. Getting stuck behind some really slow car is like no fun.

jbfoco
05-28-2008, 11:58 AM
for track days I recomend ncrc, lapsunlimited, track masters over NASA hpde.

UCB
05-28-2008, 01:45 PM
for track days I recomend ncrc, lapsunlimited, track masters over NASA hpde.


Agreed, Unless you are in group 3 or 4, NASA hpde is pretty crappy

As for braking. I think this is arguably one of the hardest things to master. You can learn the line relatively quick, but mastering proper entry speed is what separates the truly fast guys from everyone else

straylight9
05-28-2008, 02:49 PM
I don't like NASA either... too many cars. Getting stuck behind some really slow car is like no fun.


Guess I feel the opposite... my feeling is the more cars the better, up to some point. Feeling
like I'm in the only car on the track gets boring quickly, and there's hardly a chance to
practice passing (and being passed :)

awdaddict
05-29-2008, 12:34 AM
I don't like NASA either... too many cars. Getting stuck behind some really slow car is like no fun.


Guess I feel the opposite... my feeling is the more cars the better, up to some point. Feeling
like I'm in the only car on the track gets boring quickly, and there's hardly a chance to
practice passing (and being passed :)

:lol:
that's only if you run in HPDE3.
HPDE 1 & 2 = :barf: when you can only go 80mph top on a straight when u r behind some 1.6liter car.

tirbolag9
05-29-2008, 04:45 PM
i feel that following some of the slower cars will help you to learn others driving style, learning how to "predict" what the car in front of you will do.

but i do agree that when in NASA group 1 and 2...it can be a little annoying when you are only limited with passing. but you have to start somewhere and learn to safely drive fast and pass.

DetailAddict
05-30-2008, 08:30 AM
that's only true if you are following a good driver. I remember when I was in class 1 with NASA and I would tend to follow the line of the guy in front of me even he/her line sucks/was wrong. My instructor had to keep correcting me. You tend to travel where you are looking...



i feel that following some of the slower cars will help you to learn others driving style, learning how to "predict" what the car in front of you will do.

awdaddict
05-30-2008, 10:47 AM
that's only true if you are following a good driver. I remember when I was in class 1 with NASA and I would tend to follow the line of the guy in front of me even he/her line sucks/was wrong. My instructor had to keep correcting me. You tend to travel where you are looking...



i feel that following some of the slower cars will help you to learn others driving style, learning how to "predict" what the car in front of you will do.

*agree*
I was following this bright yellow Miata (hard to keep your eye off of a bright moving object) and I was driving much slower because I was following his line.

tirbolag9
05-30-2008, 01:51 PM
i failed to mention that *predicting* what the driver will do while you are driving your own line, not the same line the person in front is driving :)

JDMevoBOOST
06-18-2008, 07:34 PM
I will also agree that NASA needs to use some discretion in what cars to allow in certain HPDE run groups.

My first time out in the ITR HPDE 4...many people's first time according to the raise of hands at buttonwillow....they have some dude in a NASCAR truck....in group 4.......he was allowed in to get more seat time because he knew someone.....he flew by me and nearly blew out my ear drums that truck was so loud......and then comes the dude in an Nascar style stock car......

Nothing will scare you more than minding your own business and then getting attacked by a NASCAR anything.....

steevo8
06-18-2008, 09:30 PM
I dont mean to be a dick but IMO anyone in group 4 should know whats going on at all times and not have any issues with a car that is a nascar style anything or the L for instance since they run relatively the same times. Being on track with Josh, Yang etc in group 4 with a lot of different organizers I feel that from what I have seen, way too many people go into 4 well before their skill level is there and/or are in a car thats slow as shit and dont pay enough attention and/or arent curtious to the people they are on the track with.. Im not saying that is your case, and I do agree that the loud thing can be somewhat of an annoyance but in the end I dont really see an issue with it. I think too many people look at it as a hit on their ego to step down to 3 is all and that anyone thats in 4 should be ready for just about anything since most of the people there have/will or want to do some kind of competition.

MarkSAE
06-18-2008, 09:40 PM
There are race cars that run in HPDE4 all the time, either for practice, warmups, testing, etc... Advanced group drivers should be very well aware of their surroundings, otherwise they shouldn't run in that group. Always check your mirrors! There is a lot of divebombing that goes on in HPDE4 from my experience.

byt
06-18-2008, 11:38 PM
As for braking. I think this is arguably one of the hardest things to master. You can learn the line relatively quick, but mastering proper entry speed is what separates the truly fast guys from everyone else


gotta outbrake instructors like master braker kyle :lol:

steevo8
06-23-2008, 10:31 AM
:lol:






As for braking. I think this is arguably one of the hardest things to master. You can learn the line relatively quick, but mastering proper entry speed is what separates the truly fast guys from everyone else


gotta outbrake instructors like master braker kyle :lol:

dabaysevo
07-15-2008, 11:31 AM
That's messed up. :lol: