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View Full Version : EVO vs STI vs R8 vs GTR vs Elise vs 911



nebolic
05-28-2008, 11:15 AM
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=126453

/discuss

nebo

fiaevo.com
05-28-2008, 11:47 AM
Streets of Willow lap time: 1:25.68; that is fast for a stock car even the BDking should agree. Only contention will be that why not use the 911 turbo if you can use a 118K Audi ? and the look at the price difference between the MR and the STI. Either way the little MR held on pretty good for the money and extra doors. Actually MR is pretty good for a car that looks slow on paper. Compare the numbers between MR , Lotus , STI and Porsche.

SouthernCrane
05-28-2008, 12:12 PM
Cool read.Â* Not sure it really told us a whole lot more than we already know.

nice showing for the X though 8)

superfleajq
05-28-2008, 12:18 PM
fun read, thanks! I would be interested in what the Evo X GSR could do as well. It sucks that the Evo X MR is so much slower than the GSR 0-60 and 1/4mi...but that's to be expected with the MRs tranny, I guess. :p

nightwalker
05-28-2008, 01:55 PM
These unusual comparo's are good. Good for people who don't understand what these cars are about. It also helps our resale values too. :)

nebolic
05-28-2008, 02:15 PM
yeah and i think it's interesting to dispel the opinion that one car can't do it all.

i think the EVO X gsr would probably be a bit slower due to manual shifts.

nebo

overdrive
05-28-2008, 02:21 PM
i think the EVO X gsr would probably be a bit slower due to manual shifts.

nebo



+1!

Anyways, the EVO X is the most practical car out of the bunch. 4 doors, 5-seater, quick, and cheap. What more can you ask for?

Subaru really f*cked up this time with the new hatchback model. Understeer king FTL! LOL...

ZK
05-28-2008, 02:29 PM
For practicality, the Evo could use more trunk space and maybe a pass through for the trunk.

overdrive
05-28-2008, 02:36 PM
For practicality, the Evo could use more trunk space and maybe a pass through for the trunk.


That's what I noticed too when I went to El Cerrito mitsu with my wife.

The trunk space on the X is quite small IMO. It may be hard to fit a golf club bag in there. I also noticed that the sub takes a lot of space in the trunk.

steevo8
05-28-2008, 02:40 PM
Sure understeer sucks but its a whole lot easier and cheaper to fix then cheap interior from a company that voids your warranty if you breath in the car. The sti might have take it or leave it styling but its a freaking nice car.





i think the EVO X gsr would probably be a bit slower due to manual shifts.

nebo



+1!

Anyways, the EVO X is the most practical car out of the bunch. 4 doors, 5-seater, quick, and cheap. What more can you ask for?

Subaru really f*cked up this time with the new hatchback model. Understeer king FTL! LOL...

player67
05-28-2008, 02:55 PM
Fun read!

bdking57
05-28-2008, 04:47 PM
Anybody else not find these facts odd ... The "test" GTR that has been lent out to numerous car reviewers, run in one lap of america, and the ring etc. Clearly the evidence is right in front of everyones eyes..

GTR certified independently tested BHP is 480, yet its somehow able to produce apx 450whp on a dyno net a sub 7% drivetrain loss, while the lowely 505bhp Z06 makes about the same 450whp with RWD. somehow, the GTR is able to overcome the basic principles of friction with its AWD system. simply amazing that and AWD car making less 20 less bhp at the crank can make up the difference and still dyno the same amount.

awdaddict
05-28-2008, 05:02 PM
Anybody else not find these facts odd ... The "test" GTR that has been lent out to numerous car reviewers, run in one lap of america, and the ring etc. Clearly the evidence is right in front of everyones eyes..

GTR certified independently tested BHP is 480, yet its somehow able to produce apx 450whp on a dyno net a sub 7% drivetrain loss, while the lowely 505bhp Z06 makes about the same 450whp with RWD. somehow, the GTR is able to overcome the basic principles of friction with its AWD system. simply amazing that and AWD car making less 20 less bhp at the crank can make up the difference and still dyno the same amount.


Secret sauce of the Nissan's Altessa system :?
Isn't the R35 suppose to have over 90% of the torque transfer to the rear on most cases?

EFIxMR
05-28-2008, 06:06 PM
Here's how some tuned up EVOs did at the same track back on the first EVOM shootout.

My stock MR did a 1:29.348 with Frank Lin behind the wheel. I would say that the GTR is pretty damn fast!

1 Robert Fuller 1:24.332 Buschur-RRE-Muellerized

2 Kent Jordan 1:25.200 Muellerized-RRE

3 Mark McComsey 1:25.210 EOC-Quantum Racing-Muellerized-RRE

4 Dieter Heinz-Kijjora 1:26.220 Group 5 Motorsports-Muellerized-RRE

5 Ricky Rogers 1:26.238 Muellerized-RRE-4G63.com

6 Emile Bouret 1:26.333 Sparco-Muellerized

7 Paul Lambert 1:26.391 ForcedFed

8 Robert Tallini 1:28.285 RRE

9 Lawrence Yip 1:28.410 A-Spec

10 Frank Lin 1:29.348 Volk Racing / Toyo Tires

11 Corey Taguchi 1:33.211 B&M Racing / Drift Speed

12 Peter Beck 1:33.278 Symbolic Motors

13 Abbas Nazari 1:33.737 Team D Motorsports

14 Sammy Alinaeem 1:36.428 Race Centric

15 Mohammad Abuqartuni 1:38.800 SuperStreet Cars

overdrive
05-28-2008, 08:02 PM
Sure understeer sucks but its a whole lot easier and cheaper to fix then cheap interior from a company that voids your warranty if you breath in the car. The sti might have take it or leave it styling but its a freaking nice car.


Stabilizer bars are a quick fix for understeer.

Interior wise, the STI looks way better than the EVO X. Performance wise, that's where the X excels. I'm not so much into build quality. It's the performance that counts for me.

After a lot of reviews on youtube, edmunds and some magazines, has anyone noticed that there have not been any showdown between the STI and EVO X lately? I guess people/magazine editors/etc have figured out that the X outperforms the STI right out the box.

bdking57
05-29-2008, 07:35 AM
I think the hatch in the STi is way more practically.. considering what some people did with their evos (cages etc) having a 4 door sports car that still cant hold anything especially large has lost a little bit of favor with me, but thats all just a personal prefrence. Id rather have the STi.. consider its almost as fast, and has the hatch is a huge plus.

ZK
05-29-2008, 08:27 AM
The hatch is good for practicality... If only they made the STI look better. There's some good looking hatches out there but the STI is certainly not one of them.

overdrive
05-29-2008, 09:23 AM
The hatch is good for practicality... If only they made the STI look better. There's some good looking hatches out there but the STI is certainly not one of them.


I think the front looks awesome. hatch ftl though


Had to agree with you on that one stevo8. With the right lip, the front looks good.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a340/kul_blu_car/08STIwithbodykit.jpg

I still like the a 4 door sedan (EVO X) over a hatchback.

fiaevo.com
05-29-2008, 09:29 AM
Here's how some tuned up EVOs did at the same track back on the first EVOM shootout.

My stock MR did a 1:29.348 with Frank Lin behind the wheel. I would say that the GTR is pretty damn fast!

1 Robert Fuller 1:24.332 Buschur-RRE-Muellerized

2 Kent Jordan 1:25.200 Muellerized-RRE

3 Mark McComsey 1:25.210 EOC-Quantum Racing-Muellerized-RRE

4 Dieter Heinz-Kijjora 1:26.220 Group 5 Motorsports-Muellerized-RRE

5 Ricky Rogers 1:26.238 Muellerized-RRE-4G63.com

6 Emile Bouret 1:26.333 Sparco-Muellerized

7 Paul Lambert 1:26.391 ForcedFed

8 Robert Tallini 1:28.285 RRE

9 Lawrence Yip 1:28.410 A-Spec

10 Frank Lin 1:29.348 Volk Racing / Toyo Tires

11 Corey Taguchi 1:33.211 B&M Racing / Drift Speed

12 Peter Beck 1:33.278 Symbolic Motors

13 Abbas Nazari 1:33.737 Team D Motorsports

14 Sammy Alinaeem 1:36.428 Race Centric

15 Mohammad Abuqartuni 1:38.800 SuperStreet Cars




Andy this is from 2004 when the evo was new. My own time is 1:24.1 in the grim before it was redone. Cars back then were super slow compared to now, so I would not use those times for comparision. There was X there last time running 1:28's with just tires and coilovers, amature driver. There was a evo some Japanese guy was driving with JRZ that car ran 1:20:9. There was porsche factory cup car that ran 1:14:xx . I bet your car will be around 1:21-22 some thing.

bdking57
05-29-2008, 01:27 PM
That looks good, typical people dont undestand why its cool though.








The hatch is good for practicality... If only they made the STI look better. There's some good looking hatches out there but the STI is certainly not one of them.


I think the front looks awesome. hatch ftl though


Had to agree with you on that one stevo8. With the right lip, the front looks good.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a340/kul_blu_car/08STIwithbodykit.jpg

I still like the a 4 door sedan (EVO X) over a hatchback.

dohcvtec
05-29-2008, 06:32 PM
The hatch is good for practicality... If only they made the STI look better. There's some good looking hatches out there but the STI is certainly not one of them.


I think the front looks awesome. hatch ftl though


Had to agree with you on that one stevo8. With the right lip, the front looks good.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a340/kul_blu_car/08STIwithbodykit.jpg

I still like the a 4 door sedan (EVO X) over a hatchback.


That hatch is teh sex

superfleajq
05-29-2008, 09:48 PM
One thing I do wonder is, the Evo X's being tested in mags \ online mags these days...I wonder if they're using the Mitsu factory re-flash, or the original...





for pure entertainment= http://www.iwsti.com/forums/video-collection/123547-another-lost-08-sti.html


most of them (not all) seem to complain that the STI is being compared to other significantly more expensive cars, so "of course it's going to lose!" ...and they don't mention the similar priced Evo X MR coming in 3rd ;)Â*

anyway, funny read as well :D

EV0LL
05-29-2008, 10:31 PM
Subaru really f*cked up this time with the new hatchback model. Understeer king FTL! LOL...


Understeer is easier to fix than a crap interior, like Steve said, and the hatch configuration makes it much more useful than a "sedan" with a trunk space not much bigger than most convertibles. How you tink Subaru "f*cked up" with a hatch, is beyond me, when cars like the Mazda 3 hatch are doing well (you see more Mazda 3 hatches than sedans).

EV0LL
05-29-2008, 10:35 PM
My stock MR did a 1:29.348 with Frank Lin behind the wheel. I would say that the GTR is pretty damn fast!



10 Frank Lin 1:29.348 Volk Racing / Toyo Tires





WOW, you let Frank Lin drive your car...WOW, thats ballsy. :shock:

EFIxMR
05-29-2008, 11:05 PM
I've known Frank for a long time, and despite what people say about him and the way he comes off online, I know that he is a good person and a good driver.

overdrive
05-30-2008, 12:29 AM
Subaru really f*cked up this time with the new hatchback model. Understeer king FTL! LOL...


How you tink Subaru "f*cked up" with a hatch, is beyond me, when cars like the Mazda 3 hatch are doing well (you see more Mazda 3 hatches than sedans).



We are talking about AWD cars here bro. Not FWD. I am also not comparing hatchbacks here. I am comparing the new STI hatch to the new EVO X.

The reason why I said that "Subaru really f*cked up this time with the new hatchback model" is that when STI's were still 4-door sedans, competition between the EVO was pretty fierce, but when Subaru came out with the new STI hatch, the poor hatch cannot even outperform the new EVO X.

To be honest, when the new STI hatch came out, I really prefer the styling of the car over the X. I was also about to purchase one after I saw it at the San Francisco auto show. Interior wise, the STI wins, but performance wise, the EVO X takes it. It's the reviews on magazines and online automotive articles that got me. It's the performance that made me not purchase the car.

After reading a lot of magazines, I have to admit that the new STI cannot keep up with the new EVO any longer. I am talking here pitting the two cars against each other right out of the box. Modifying them is another story. Anyways, almost all magazines I read and reviews posted online on both cars state that the EVO X is a better performing car than the new STI hatch.

EV0LL
05-30-2008, 01:04 AM
Ya it is puzzling that the performance gap between the two is so wide as it appears (due to said reviews) as the gap was much closer between the two old cars. Hopefully, Subaru will pull its head out of its ass and fix the steering issue at least.

What kills me about the X is that the trunk is so effing small for how big the car is, I could probably live with the interior cheapness (which my improve over time) but unless I bought the X for pure driving fun, its less practical/nice than my 9.

I guess really the best thing to do is wait and see, since both Mitsu and Subaru are known for tweaking the cars year to year.

earlyapex aka jack ass
05-30-2008, 01:30 AM
I dunno, I've driven both on the street and I thought the STi felt better overall. Better steering, felt lighter, sounded better, felt more nimble with a much more active rear end.

On the track it might be a different story.

overdrive
05-30-2008, 01:54 AM
What kills me about the X is that the trunk is so effing small for how big the car is, I could probably live with the interior cheapness (which my improve over time) but unless I bought the X for pure driving fun, its less practical/nice than my 9.

I guess really the best thing to do is wait and see, since both Mitsu and Subaru are known for tweaking the cars year to year.


That is also my issue with the X. Trunk space. I noticed that too when I went to El Cerrito mitsu with my wife to check the X out.

Just like my previous post in this thread, the trunk space on the X is quite small IMO. It may be hard to fit a golf club bag in there. I also noticed that the sub takes a lot of space in the trunk.

Hopefully Subaru will recognize the performance deficiency and fix it accordingly. For now, we'll just wait and see...

Bryan,
I will take the STI anytime for my DD, but I also plan to make my DD my weekend warrior as well. So the X takes my vote.

steevo8
05-30-2008, 08:02 AM
What kills me about the X is that the trunk is so effing small for how big the car is, I could probably live with the interior cheapness (which my improve over time) but unless I bought the X for pure driving fun, its less practical/nice than my 9.

I guess really the best thing to do is wait and see, since both Mitsu and Subaru are known for tweaking the cars year to year.


That is also my issue with the X. Trunk space. I noticed that too when I went to El Cerrito mitsu with my wife to check the X out.

Just like my previous post in this thread, the trunk space on the X is quite small IMO. It may be hard to fit a golf club bag in there. I also noticed that the sub takes a lot of space in the trunk.

Hopefully Subaru will recognize the performance deficiency and fix it accordingly. For now, we'll just wait and see...

Bryan,
I will take the STI anytime for my DD, but I also plan to make my DD my weekend warrior as well. So the X takes my vote.


So if the STI is a better daily driver, and the issue is basically that it understeers too much, then why wouldnt you just buy a STI and stick a sway bar on it? :? Not to mention that most people who track their cars will eventually be running some coilovers. IMO people put WAY too much thought into stupid magazine tests, I mean the difference between the two is so negligible it really makes no sense to base a $30k+ purchase on it. I have a piece of crap car that had all the creature comforts sacrificed for performance and I cant tell you one thing, if someone told me they were to make my car a quality built daily driver that I would enjoy driving on the street but I would be 1-2sec slower on the track, I would gladly do it.

bdking57
05-30-2008, 09:37 AM
The hatch is worth being slower in my opinion, because the sedan isnt really all that useful if you turning this car into a track car, with a cage or harness bar which nullifies it anyway.. why not just get a 2 seater in that case?.. I would have like to see the concept X hatch produced.

overdrive
05-30-2008, 05:17 PM
So if the STI is a better daily driver, and the issue is basically that it understeers too much, then why wouldnt you just buy a STI and stick a sway bar on it? :? Not to mention that most people who track their cars will eventually be running some coilovers. IMO people put WAY too much thought into stupid magazine tests, I mean the difference between the two is so negligible it really makes no sense to base a $30k+ purchase on it. I have a piece of crap car that had all the creature comforts sacrificed for performance and I cant tell you one thing, if someone told me they were to make my car a quality built daily driver that I would enjoy driving on the street but I would be 1-2sec slower on the track, I would gladly do it.


I want a car that I could DD and track straight out of the dealer bro. I am the person who wants to utilize the stock parts first (getting the wheels worn out, using the life of the air filter, etc) before going aftermarket (new rims, tires, air intake, etc). I only plan to fix it up after driving the car bone stock after a year or so. I want to get the feeling of how the car handles and behaves in stock form. By driving the car stock, I can also familiarize myself to how it behaves on the track when I push it to its limit.

At first, I also do not like how the X looks that's why I was leaning towards the STI hatch. As the months pass, it grew on me and I am now saving up for an EVO X.

steevo8
05-30-2008, 05:48 PM
Well you have already made up your mind and it doesnt make a difference to me but I think your buying the car for the wrong reasons.. Even stock theres only a VERY marginal difference between the two. Yeah so the X is a tad better on a track BUT the STI is A LOT better on the street. like I said before, I would rather be 1-2sec slower on a track with a well built car that rewards me every time I drive it as oppose to a car thats 1 sec faster and is just so so as a every day car.

leaveit2bevo
05-30-2008, 09:24 PM
do you guys know for sure that a front sway will fix the STi understeer problem? or are you all just speculating? I have a feeling its the later it may not be that easy.

earlyapex aka jack ass
05-30-2008, 10:17 PM
do you guys know for sure that a front sway will fix the STi understeer problem? or are you all just speculating? I have a feeling its the later it may not be that easy.


Since it's based on the legacy platform I would imagine so. The legacy platform is actually a better handling platform than the "old" impreza platform. For one, it finally has "real" rear multilink suspension design instead of the weird McPherson-type and bar rear suspension it used to have.

A bigger rear bar instead of bigger front would probably help more. The STi has a much smaller rear sway than the Evo does. 20mm for the STi and 23mm for the Evo X. Also, the DCCD can move a bit more power to the rear on the STi, I believe you can go 30f/70r on the STi. On the Evo X it is 50/50 always.

The Locks said their Legacy handles way better than the impreza and it's almost stock.

steevo8
05-31-2008, 11:39 AM
lmao....front swaybar to eliminate understeer.....



I was a sceptic as well but after talking to some of the top awd suspension guys, its true. I have a thread regarding it here somewhere and Dave Bongiovanni has some good insight on it that might be worth reading if its something that interests you. For the average hpde guy its not really something thats needed or going to play a large roll in their setup, but it is another tuning add thats good to be familiar with.... I know Ill be installing a front bar when my car goes back together

dload
05-31-2008, 11:12 PM
awesome info....bu tdoes that mean stiffen the front or lessen the stiffness? and that also would require the rear to be upgraded right?

and please do post the link to that word......

EV0LL
06-01-2008, 12:50 PM
do you guys know for sure that a front sway will fix the STi understeer problem? or are you all just speculating? I have a feeling its the later it may not be that easy.


Alignment settings are also a part of it. I would be interested to see what the factory settings are for the STI, it may call for 0 degrees camber from the factory, for instance..so just tweaking that a little could help

leaveit2bevo
06-02-2008, 10:57 AM
do you guys know for sure that a front sway will fix the STi understeer problem? or are you all just speculating? I have a feeling its the later it may not be that easy.


Alignment settings are also a part of it. I would be interested to see what the factory settings are for the STI, it may call for 0 degrees camber from the factory, for instance..so just tweaking that a little could help



0 camber from the factory would be hard for me to believe.

EV0LL
06-02-2008, 06:50 PM
do you guys know for sure that a front sway will fix the STi understeer problem? or are you all just speculating? I have a feeling its the later it may not be that easy.


Alignment settings are also a part of it. I would be interested to see what the factory settings are for the STI, it may call for 0 degrees camber from the factory, for instance..so just tweaking that a little could help



0 camber from the factory would be hard for me to believe.


Why is that? Plenty of cars do it. Shoot my talon came with positive camber up front If I recall...Not like evos had great factory settings either, since they improve so much with just an alignment.

dload
06-02-2008, 09:50 PM
still i dont understand how upgrading the front swaybar will solve the understeer....does that mean stiffer or softer....or does that require both front and rear because thats a whole different story to me....please explain

but then again to me/for me, i wouldnt degrade wrx's for their understeer impression because i believe that there's just a way to drive it with a different angle on the entrance of the corner......when actually mastered the wrx/sti's can possibly be faster than an evo lapping.....but then again this is from my own experience and others i know who owns an sti....

correct me if i am wrong or the friends ive mentioned who owns these cars....but based on our conversations, the evo's are just what they call "spoiled-idiot proof" cars......anyway i have both respect for both cars, to me theyre still on the same level and i wouldnt mock or make fun of the other....both are great

dohcvtec
06-03-2008, 05:40 PM
You would need to upgrade the rear bar as well. Upgrading only the front will INCREASE understeer.

dload
06-03-2008, 06:04 PM
then that would be a total different story.....

leaveit2bevo
06-04-2008, 01:38 PM
do you guys know for sure that a front sway will fix the STi understeer problem? or are you all just speculating? I have a feeling its the later it may not be that easy.


Alignment settings are also a part of it. I would be interested to see what the factory settings are for the STI, it may call for 0 degrees camber from the factory, for instance..so just tweaking that a little could help



0 camber from the factory would be hard for me to believe.


Why is that? Plenty of cars do it. Shoot my talon came with positive camber up front If I recall...Not like evos had great factory settings either, since they improve so much with just an alignment.


Plenty of performance cars? you cant really compare an Sti to your old talon, no way Suby is going to give it 0 camber knowing how much performance numbers sell cars.

EV0LL
06-04-2008, 08:54 PM
Plenty of performance cars? you cant really compare an Sti to your old talon,


Careful, you're entering a subjective realm here on what constitutes a "performance car". ;-)



no way Suby is going to give it 0 camber knowing how much performance numbers sell cars.


Well, obvious they didn't pay attention to the handling #s if it has all this understeer then did they? If thats the case, wouldn't be surprised if they spec'd a milder front camber setting (maybe due to past warranty complaints for excessive tire wear, maybe to idiot proof the car more, etc.). Oh and BTW I never said for a fact that the STI came with zero degrees of camber, just that it may have a milder front setting (like up to) zero degrees, just to clarify.

leaveit2bevo
06-05-2008, 12:14 PM
Plenty of performance cars? you cant really compare an Sti to your old talon,


Careful, you're entering a subjective realm here on what constitutes a "performance car". ;-)



no way Suby is going to give it 0 camber knowing how much performance numbers sell cars.


Well, obvious they didn't pay attention to the handling #s if it has all this understeer then did they? If thats the case, wouldn't be surprised if they spec'd a milder front camber setting (maybe due to past warranty complaints for excessive tire wear, maybe to idiot proof the car more, etc.). Oh and BTW I never said for a fact that the STI came with zero degrees of camber, just that it may have a milder front setting (like up to) zero degrees, just to clarify.

instead of us arguing about it without knowing what it is I found the specs
http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/attachments/suspension-wheels/42961d1103994604-alignment-basics-

EV0LL
06-05-2008, 06:46 PM
instead of us arguing about it without knowing what it is I found the specs
http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/attachments/suspension-wheels/42961d1103994604-alignment-basics-


Nice find. Looks like we have our answer. Not a whole lot of front camber in there, with the rear having a touch more than the front.

leaveit2bevo
06-06-2008, 09:49 AM
the wrx is running a lot more camber in the rear wonder if thats to keep the ass more stable.

leaveit2bevo
06-06-2008, 10:34 AM
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=7&article_id=6850

dload
06-06-2008, 03:57 PM
the wrx is running a lot more camber in the rear wonder if thats to keep the ass more stable.


i believe it requires a different style of driving is the reason

leaveit2bevo
06-09-2008, 10:08 AM
the wrx is running a lot more camber in the rear wonder if thats to keep the ass more stable.


i believe it requires a different style of driving is the reason

what would that be?

dload
06-10-2008, 05:20 PM
the wrx is running a lot more camber in the rear wonder if thats to keep the ass more stable.


well correct me if im wrong, as ive mentioned, if you let the ass kick entering a corner....honestly i really dont know how to explain it but i think this guy will explain it way better than i can...


peter solberg lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56-70sYPZ2Y&feature=related

and as ive mentioned some of my friends who owns the older versions who have somewhat learned this sideways entrance skill drove faster than some of us who owns an evo up some canyons...not always but it does work

leaveit2bevo
06-11-2008, 12:15 PM
ya but theres a lot of neg chamber in the rear and not much in the front, thats your standard saftey understeer setting so unlss they get an allignment there isn't going to be any rally oversteer drifts.