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earlyapex aka jack ass
08-11-2008, 08:10 PM
This site sucks

gohdunlam
08-11-2008, 08:16 PM
where you pumping from? is concord one open?

RREVOVIII
08-11-2008, 08:17 PM
where was this Gas Station @?

SavageEvo8
08-11-2008, 08:19 PM
awesome bryan. this has been a huge qestion in my mind. curious to see what your findings are. thanks for letting us in on your research.

gohdunlam
08-11-2008, 08:20 PM
*sigh* big injectors are so bank =[

missred
08-11-2008, 08:24 PM
Nice and thanks for keeping us posted!

fiaevo.com
08-11-2008, 08:40 PM
There may be a few questions about ethanol use in non flex fuel set up cars, there design differences in the two fuel systems, one is the elimination of bare magnesium, aluminum, and rubber parts in the fuel system. Another is that fuel pumps must be capable of operating with electrically conductive ethanol instead of non-conducting dielectric gasoline fuel. There are a few more issues but the concern more to the older vehicles. The other issue is that with more than 1% of water, ethanol and water seperate from gasoline, this accelerates chances of engine wear during warm up or while reaching the operating temp. Few of the reasons why stainless steel tanks are used and intank fuel pump assemblies are modified to avoid arcing as well. Now I am sure that our cars while new will be fine for a while since new materials are usually strong and long lasting, but there is no harm in doing some research on the construction of our fuel systems and storage before hand.

earlyapex aka jack ass
08-11-2008, 08:56 PM
There may be a few questions about ethanol use in non flex fuel set up cars, there design differences in the two fuel systems, one is the elimination of bare magnesium, aluminum, and rubber parts in the fuel system. Another is that fuel pumps must be capable of operating with electrically conductive ethanol instead of non-conducting dielectric gasoline fuel. There are a few more issues but the concern more to the older vehicles. The other issue is that with more than 1% of water, ethanol and water seperate from gasoline, this accelerates chances of engine wear during warm up or while reaching the operating temp. Few of the reasons why stainless steel tanks are used and intank fuel pump assemblies are modified to avoid arcing as well. Now I am sure that our cars while new will be fine for a while since new materials are usually strong and long lasting, but there is no harm in doing some research on the construction of our fuel systems and storage before hand.


The effort to copy-paste that could have been better spent searching to see if somebody had done this type of testing beforehand:

http://www.fuelsrc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17

fiaevo.com
08-11-2008, 08:56 PM
the effects are over the years, and i am sure bryan is not the first. Relax.

PS: It was not copy and paste it was some thing that was brought up by a customer some weeks ago.

TIA

1SloEvo
08-11-2008, 08:59 PM
Can't wait to see how it turns out! Do you think 1000cc injectors will be good for the boost levels you run with the Green, or are you going to have to go up to 1200cc injectors?

jbfoco
08-11-2008, 08:59 PM
There may be a few questions about ethanol use in non flex fuel set up cars, there design differences in the two fuel systems, one is the elimination of bare magnesium, aluminum, and rubber parts in the fuel system. Another is that fuel pumps must be capable of operating with electrically conductive ethanol instead of non-conducting dielectric gasoline fuel. There are a few more issues but the concern more to the older vehicles. The other issue is that with more than 1% of water, ethanol and water seperate from gasoline, this accelerates chances of engine wear during warm up or while reaching the operating temp. Few of the reasons why stainless steel tanks are used and intank fuel pump assemblies are modified to avoid arcing as well. Now I am sure that our cars while new will be fine for a while since new materials are usually strong and long lasting, but there is no harm in doing some research on the construction of our fuel systems and storage before hand.


The effort to copy-paste that could have been better spent searching to see if somebody had done this type of testing beforehand:

http://www.fuelsrc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17



Best pwnedage recipient of 2009 ....

GOES TO!!!!!

Sammmy at Fiaevo

(cheers) )(rahhhh)

Congrats!!

fiaevo.com
08-11-2008, 09:00 PM
lol...

PS: thanks for the link to the forum.

jbfoco
08-11-2008, 09:01 PM
the effects are over the years, and i am sure bryan is not the first. Relax.

PS: It was not copy and paste it was some thing that was brought up by a customer some weeks ago.

TIA



CLICK THIS LINK >
http://www.fuelsrc.com/forums/showthread.php

TIA

fiaevo.com
08-11-2008, 09:03 PM
Researched preformed by AMS (http://amsperformance.com)
By: Chris Black



I'm not sure what initially sparked our interest in E85 fuel. Somehow, one of us was surfing the internet and stumbled upon it, let a few other people know, and eventually everyone had just as many questions as we had answers! Using our searching capabilities we scoured every information source we could find on the fuel. There are three major questions that everyone asks about E85; what is the advantage of it, what does it do to my fuel system and what do I need to do to run it? Two of these questions can be answered easily, while the question of what it does to your fuel system remains somewhat unanswered.



E85 is supposedly a corrosive fuel if you take into account that it is 85% ethanol. The properties of ethanol, while less corrosive than its counterpart methanol, are listed as being able to corrode aluminum, weaken and eat through rubber fuel lines, and do other nasty things to components commonly found in your fuel system. Original Equipment Manufacturer's (OEM) fuel systems have been made more tolerant of ethanol than they were in the past. Normal gasoline can contain up to 10% of ethanol, which OEMs have had to deal with by federal regulation. None of these companies, if they are smart, have done the absolute bare minimum to be in compliance with the fuel that we use today. If they had, there would be problems with the fuel systems that would incite huge numbers of recalls and eventually cost them more money. However, it is very tough to figure out how far they have gone with their ethanol compatibility without testing, or the exact chemical makeup of each part. There is no real way for us to know how the factory fuel system on each particular car is going to hold up until someone is brave enough to test it.



The Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution is a relatively new vehicle with parts that aren't exactly easy to find in a junkyard, or used for a reasonable price. If you break something in your brand new EVO 9's fuel system because you were running E85, chances are you warranty claim is going to be denied. The best thing to do in this situation for us was to use all the broken pieces of various fuel systems we had and submerge them in containers of E85. While the test is not the most scientific thing I have ever done, it serves its purpose. In our 6 containers we have:



A stock EVO fuel sending unit

Various fuel lines of different material, including the stock EVO lines and Stainless Steel braided line

A DSM fuel injector

fuel injector o-rings and isolators

bare aluminum

anodized aluminum

stainless bolts

A disassembled inline Walbro fuel pump

An extra jar filled with e85






Our extra jar of E85 not only serves as a control, but allows me to monitor how much water this fuel is going to soak up. Ethanol is a very hydroscopic liquid, which means it likes to absorb water. When there is roughly a 1% content of water the ethanol and gasoline will separate and obviously start to cause some issues.



After about 4 months, there has been no change in the composition of the materials that are submerged in the containers. There has been a change in the color of the fuel in a couple of the jars. The jar with the fuel lines in it is the darkest of them all. Some of the fuel line I used, had been previously installed on a car and it had some electrical tape on it. The electrical tape has not fared well at all! I would not consider this to be a valid concern unless you are planning on holding back in excess of seventy-five psi with electrical tape. If you do, you are bound to have other problems with your fuel system. The other container, with a used fuel sending unit in it, is also quite dirty. The used fuel filter on the end of the pump was visually very dirty before it was submerged in E85. This proves some of what I have read about ethanol and its cleaning properties. In several articles I have seen, it is recommended that you change your fuel filter 50 miles after you start to run the fuel in your vehicle. I would say that this is an accurate estimate of the time allowed before you change your old filter. If you have an older vehicle, I would be inclined to tell you change it once again after that in order to insure that it does not become restricted with all of the debris being cleaned out by the ethanol. The rubber lines are not cracked, or weakened, my aluminum has not yet corroded and everything in my Walbro pump seems to be the same as I left it a few months ago. So far, so good, and now we need to test this on somebody's car!



It wasn't long after I told Eric, our sales manager at AMS, about the test results that he was seriously considering using it in his car. After a few days he decided it was time to do it and we had to figure out what we wanted to do about the fuel requirements for his car. Under full load the rumor is that the use of ethanol requires about 30% more fuel. The reason you need more ethanol to get the same power is because of the fuels lower energy content. This fuel also will burn slightly colder, and have a higher resistance to pre-ignition and contains more oxygen than conventional gasoline. Although the ethanol has only a slightly lower temperature during combustion, it takes much more heat to get it to change phase into its gaseous state. When ethanol changes phase, it does it very easily because of its low boiling point. The energy (heat) used for the ethanol to change phase is three times greater than that of gasoline. This heat gets pulled from the incoming air charge, and the surrounding material in the combustion chamber, runner ports and the intake manifold. It is easy to see how this could be advantageous to the production of power in high temperature, high combustion pressure engines. For comparison ethanol uses 410 btus/lb (heat energy units) to vaporize, and gasoline uses only 135 btus/lb.



We already had a good handle on the injector duty cycle he was running (making around 335hp at 22 psi on 93 octane) it was relatively easy to put him in the right size injector for his car. The injectors supplied with the car from the factory are 560cc units, fed by a very capable fuel pump at about 85% duty cycle. Using the 30% theory we should be able to get away with an injector that flows about 728ccs at the same boost level. However, we want to turn the boost up to get the most out of the supposed 105 octane fuel. We decided to use 880's and switch it up to a Walbro fuel pump which flows even more than a stock EVO 9 unit. Everything else in the fuel system will be left unchanged based on our findings from the above.



The stock ECU does not look at an air/fuel ratio for closed loop fuel trim adjustments. The stock ECU from this car and any other with any type of oxygen sensor looks at a value called lambda. This value of lambda always equals one when the stoichiometric air/fuel ratio is reached for whatever fuel is being burned. For example stoich on gasoline, which everyone is most familiar with is 14.64:1 and also is equal to a lambda value of 1. The stoich air/fuel ratio of ethanol is about 7:1 and also equals a lambda value of 1. All oxygen sensors, wideband or not, measure in lambda and then convert that value to the air/fuel ratio of your choice. In the stock ECU's case it does not waste time converting the value and uses the lambda value to get the idle, cruising and part throttle air/fuel ratio in check. Knowing this, all I had to do was correct the scaling used in the ECU so that I could get it as close as possible and let the ECU do the rest. With the drivability hammered out, Eric drove the car around for the next few days before it was time to get tuned.



-Eric's Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX SE



Relevant Power Modifications



AMS Full Turbo Back Exhaust

AMS Front Mount Intercooler

AMS Lower Intercooler Pipe

AMS Manual Boost Controller

AMS 880cc Injectors

Blitz Drop in filter with stock airbox

Walbro Fuel Pump

GSC S1 EVO 9 Cams






Once the car was on the dyno I made a few pulls to see where the car was at on the old tune. With the injectors scaled correctly, the tune was not far off from where it needs to be. I quickly started to notice a trend of the car liking more and more fuel. E85 definitely likes to run a richer (lower) lambda value under full power! As I was adding in fuel, power was staying the same and the knock noise was going down. The power numbers are roughly similar to the numbers on pump gas at the same boost level. On this car, there was no added benefit to simply running E85. Any gains were going to be realized with more boost and ignition timing. Utilizing a manual boost controller on stock EVO 9 turbo I managed to tweak it out to about 28 psi of boost. With the fuel dialed in, the next thing to do was to increase timing to realize any additional gains. Sadly and surprisingly, the car would only take very conservative timing values when in comparison with 100 octane gas out of the pump. Previously I have experienced 100 octane pump gas being able to make a bit more power than this and be much less sensitive to timing and boost changes. The timing the car ended up using is similar to a car on a 93 octane tune at 21psi of boost. While the car is making about 380ft lbs of torque, and 365 wheel horsepower, I am a little disappointed with the results tuning wise, and the cars ability to handle what I think it should.







The octane rating of 105 may not be entirely true, or not on the same scale as 105 octane in a regular gasoline mixture. If I had to guess an octane number it would be somewhere between 95 and 100 octane. The other difficult thing about E85, especially in the northern states, is the fact that the actual blend of ethanol to gasoline is changed throughout the year to compensate for the colder weather.



Ethanol is NOT a cold weather fuel. Cold start compatibility with ethanol on OEM vehicles usually includes a heated fuel line before the fuel rail in order to get the ethanol hot enough to vaporize and ignite. Under a certain temperature, it does not matter how much or how little ethanol is injected, it simply will not vaporize or be able to reach its flash point. The flash point of ethanol is actually 55.4 degrees Fahrenheit in its pure form, while gasoline will reach its flash point to temperatures as low as negative forty-five degrees. To combat this phenomenon, the gasoline to ethanol content is raised. The gasoline that we had in Eric's car could have been E80, or possibly E70. The stickers on the pump in Illinois specify that the "E85" will contain at least 70% ethanol. Unfortunately, there is no way for us to tell utilizing the information that we currently have available. Cars that are equipped to run ethanol from the factory have a special sensor inside the gas tank which is able to tell the amount of gasoline to the amount of ethanol and change the vehicles tune accordingly. There is currently no way to adapt this to the stock ECU, although there are a few pioneers out there leading the way to get this done. I have heard reports of several people being able to adapt these sensors into a stand alone and have the fuel and timing trimmed accordingly. Ultimately, this will be the best method of running this fuel out of the pump.

for those who would like to know more.

steevo8
08-11-2008, 09:05 PM
umm wtf was the point of that? :?

earlyapex aka jack ass
08-11-2008, 09:08 PM
Can't wait to see how it turns out! Do you think 1000cc injectors will be good for the boost levels you run with the Green, or are you going to have to go up to 1200cc injectors?


So far I am at 88% IDC with RC 1000cc at 41lb/min at 11.5 AFR

28psi peak, around 23.5psi up top

I like to actually reply with real data of actual experience I am finding instead of regurgitating and copy-pasting from the internet. I feel the community gains more by this as my belief is "I'll believe it when I see it".

I've seen E85 referenced on the internet like it tunes much like 110 octane. I read that and thought it was impressive, but I was skeptical until I actually had real-world hands on experience with it. So far I am seeing that to be true. More time with real hands-on experience like I am doing will bring more data for everyone to see.

1SloEvo
08-11-2008, 09:16 PM
That's some good data. Thanks.

Anything above a 'stock housing' turbo would probably need something bigger than 1000cc injectors I would assume.

Keep up the good work...

BTW - you will have a PM shortly!

whtrice
08-12-2008, 02:09 AM
Bryan's EVO Alky...Injected...and blown....It just sounds so bad ass.... 8)







Can't wait to see how it turns out! Do you think 1000cc injectors will be good for the boost levels you run with the Green, or are you going to have to go up to 1200cc injectors?


So far I am at 88% IDC with RC 1000cc at 41lb/min at 11.5 AFR

28psi peak, around 23.5psi up top

I like to actually reply with real data of actual experience I am finding instead of regurgitating and copy-pasting from the internet. I feel the community gains more by this as my belief is "I'll believe it when I see it".

I've seen E85 referenced on the internet like it tunes much like 110 octane. I read that and thought it was impressive, but I was skeptical until I actually had real-world hands on experience with it. So far I am seeing that to be true. More time with real hands-on experience like I am doing will bring more data for everyone to see.

nebulous
08-12-2008, 07:35 AM
Hey Bryan,

Are you running 100% E85 in your tank or is there a mix of 100 octane and E85? Good results!!!

ChuckP
08-12-2008, 11:05 AM
Hey Bryan,

Are you running 100% E85 in your tank or is there a mix of 100 octane and E85? Good results!!!


Im pretty sure he is using 100% E85, but i could be wrong. Anyways, cant wait to see some some data on this.

leaveit2bevo
08-12-2008, 12:27 PM
Can't wait to see how it turns out! Do you think 1000cc injectors will be good for the boost levels you run with the Green, or are you going to have to go up to 1200cc injectors?


So far I am at 88% IDC with RC 1000cc at 41lb/min at 11.5 AFR

28psi peak, around 23.5psi up top

I like to actually reply with real data of actual experience I am finding instead of regurgitating and copy-pasting from the internet. I feel the community gains more by this as my belief is "I'll believe it when I see it".

I've seen E85 referenced on the internet like it tunes much like 110 octane. I read that and thought it was impressive, but I was skeptical until I actually had real-world hands on experience with it. So far I am seeing that to be true. More time with real hands-on experience like I am doing will bring more data for everyone to see.


have you noticed how much nicer the car runs just day to day crusing? it insane how much timing e85 likes.

earlyapex aka jack ass
08-12-2008, 01:26 PM
have you noticed how much nicer the car runs just day to day crusing? it insane how much timing e85 likes.


Yup, first thing I noticed, thought it was just placebo but you mentioning it as well makes me feel less crazy.

On the dyno now, currently at 375whp

whtrice
08-12-2008, 01:34 PM
That's what "I'm talkin about Willis!!!







have you noticed how much nicer the car runs just day to day crusing? it insane how much timing e85 likes.


Yup, first thing I noticed, thought it was just placebo but you mentioning it as well makes me feel less crazy.

On the dyno now, currently at 375whp

1SloEvo
08-12-2008, 01:58 PM
Nice. Maybe I'll have to look into this instead of my previous plans! ;)

whtrice
08-12-2008, 02:01 PM
Stick with your plan ..... Just do a E-85 tune with it Brandon.



Nice. Maybe I'll have to look into this instead of my previous plans! ;)

1SloEvo
08-12-2008, 02:25 PM
did you get my pm scott? i sent you a pm as to why i might not do it.

whtrice
08-12-2008, 02:31 PM
The FP waiting game one?



did you get my pm scott? i sent you a pm as to why i might not do it.

lqdchkn
08-12-2008, 02:40 PM
Can you run it with 720's? or are they completely out of the question with the necessary fuel demands?

whtrice
08-12-2008, 02:47 PM
From what I have seen so far injectors need to go up to 880's or higher.



Can you run it with 720's? or are they completely out of the question with the necessary fuel demands?

1SloEvo
08-12-2008, 02:52 PM
The FP waiting game one?



did you get my pm scott? i sent you a pm as to why i might not do it.



Pretty much. Don't really want to wait another month or 2.

chrisw
08-12-2008, 03:59 PM
so what happens when I have to smog the EVO and show up with a tank full of E-85? I can still pass the visual, but the sniffer???

:cool:

ChuckP
08-12-2008, 04:05 PM
^^It would be wise to throw a cat on before you go to smog it.

whtrice
08-12-2008, 04:06 PM
If you don't say anything I have a feeling they would not know. I am certainly going to do some testing in this regards.
I have a feeling E-85 will run allot cleaner then gas. It is so new that the state doesn't have any guidlines regarding it yet.
I also have a feeling that this new fuel will save allot of us that have upgraded our cams to more aggressive profiles.





so what happens when I have to smog the EVO and show up with a tank full of E-85? I can still pass the visual, but the sniffer???

:cool:

leaveit2bevo
08-12-2008, 04:12 PM
If you don't say anything I have a feeling they would not know. I am certainly going to do some testing in this regards.
I have a feeling E-85 will run allot cleaner then gas. It is so new that the state doesn't have any guidlines regarding it yet.
I also have a feeling that this new fuel will save allot of us that have upgraded or cams to more aggressive profiles.





so what happens when I have to smog the EVO and show up with a tank full of E-85? I can still pass the visual, but the sniffer???

:cool:



your car is going to be a monster with that green at 28psi, everyone says they really come alive with high boost.

whtrice
08-12-2008, 04:53 PM
I am hoping so. I am thinking it should be like other 20G models that do great on the superior fuels. I think E-85 has come about at a very significant time for us. I know Bryan is going to provide some interesting insight in regards to it. I know when he gets quiet he is having allot of fun. :)



your car is going to be a monster with that green at 28psi, everyone says they really come alive with high boost.

earlyapex aka jack ass
08-12-2008, 04:56 PM
I know when he gets quiet he is having allot of fun. :)




lol, watch for a post very soon. ;)

1SloEvo
08-12-2008, 05:33 PM
I'm watching! 8)

earlyapex aka jack ass
08-12-2008, 05:49 PM
I'm watching! 8)


Posted in power mods

1SloEvo
08-12-2008, 06:00 PM
I'm seeing! :D

earlyapex aka jack ass
08-18-2008, 09:16 PM
E85 was 10 cents cheaper a gallon today. woot

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/tech/E85/e85_price_081808.jpg

Also meet a guy filling up his integra with E85. He said he just pumps it in without any different parts. I was like uhmmmm.... you might not want to do that. He says "why? it's cheap gas!"

roflcopter

noypiC50
08-18-2008, 09:20 PM
nice! some parts of the US, i think they even get it for less than $3/gallon

steevo8
08-18-2008, 09:32 PM
... you might not want to do that. He says "why? it's cheap gas!"

roflcopter



lmao!!!!!!!!! nice.. gotta love the honda boys

chefnevo
08-19-2008, 12:06 AM
... you might not want to do that. He says "why? it's cheap gas!"


roflcopter


:shock: :lol:

MarkSAE
08-19-2008, 12:17 AM
rofl at the dumbass! :lol:

leaveit2bevo
08-19-2008, 01:29 PM
I cant believe it even runs

steevo8
08-19-2008, 01:50 PM
I have a stupid question... What cars do run on e85? Can you buy some new fairy commuter car or something that will run on it?

ChuckP
08-19-2008, 02:49 PM
Also meet a guy filling up his integra with E85. He said he just pumps it in without any different parts. I was like uhmmmm.... you might not want to do that. He says "why? it's cheap gas!"

roflcopter



Would that integra just be running extra lean?

ChuckP
08-19-2008, 02:52 PM
I have a stupid question... What cars do run on e85? Can you buy some new fairy commuter car or something that will run on it?


I know GM was making E85 cars and trucks.

mtsevovii
08-19-2008, 04:39 PM
http://e85vehicles.com/

JDMevoBOOST
08-20-2008, 01:04 PM
hondas will run on beer and stupidity. I hope you didn't try to explain any further bryan hahaha. Just let it eat through his gas lines.

earlyapex aka jack ass
02-03-2009, 11:21 AM
Howdy all,

As of this week I have decided to move all my efforts into another local Evo community.

It was a good stretch here and I was glad to be part of the community as a whole and not just "another vendor"

Pretty much all of this community I am a part of moved on, and rightfully so for many reasons, so I have chosen to follow as well as at the end of the day, I own a Evo and I am a member of that said community.

It's a huge bummer it has come to this, but people have dropped the ball and this is the outcome.

All tech, power, data and all other findings by me moving forward will no longer be posted on this website.

You all know where to find me.

:band: on.