wilson1
05-08-2005, 12:17 AM
OKay guys, exciting findings!
Looks liked the MR bilsteins is built liked their racing shocks, meaning that the internals can be swapped out! :shock:
http://forums.evolutionm.net/showpost.php?p=1913839&postcount=29
FarNorthRacing
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Posts: 6
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Apr 28, 2005, 09:05 AM #29
Hey guys,
Dennis Grant here, the same DG that David Buschur occasionally mentions whenever sombody accuses him of being "just a drag racer"
I'm working for ATI Performance Engineering these days as their suspension/design engineer (amongst other things). We've had a couple of EVOs come through our doors, although I can't really give out details. And of course, I built that 2G DSM that won the SM ProSolo Championship a couple of years ago (details at http://farnorthracing.com )
I've had the EVO MR Bilsteins on our shock dyno, and they look VERY good. Somebody at Mitsubishi did their homework.
But there's another neat little side effect that comes from Mitsu using Bilsteins.....
Bilstein is a subsiderary of Krupp. Yes, THAT Krupp. They have monster ecomonies of scale (so parts are cheap) and the quality and repeatability is top-notch. A Bilstein is for all intents and purposes a Penske without the adjuster knobs.
But where things get really interesting is that all the internals of all Bilsteins interchange. There's 2 different body diameters, and all the parts that fit that body diameter fit other shocks of the similar diameter.
...including their racing shocks.
The guts inside a Bilstein Nextel Cup shock are the same guts that are inside an off the shelf OEM Bilstein. The shimstack and piston may not be *exactly* the same (different shimstacks and pistons make different forces) but they ARE interchangeable - and like I said, the parts are cheap and very high quality. A new shimstack is $10. A different piston is $25. Replacement rod seals are $25.
The one major difference between the racing shocks and the stuff used on the MR is that the race shocks have a Schraeder valve on them (like a tire valve) that allows the shocks to be pressurized and depressurized at will. Once you can do that, you can open up the shock very easily, and do any service on them very quickly. We recently timed how long it took me to get a Bilstein apart so it could be revalved, and it was less than 3 minutes.
It's simple enough that you can actually do it yourself if you are so inclined (it's a little messy, but a simple process) or if you'd rather have us do it (we dyno every shock we build to make sure it went together properly) it's a fast enough process that we don't have to soak you on labor charges - and did I mention that parts are cheap?
Oh yeah - the standard body diameter means that the coilover sleeves fit right on too. We have to cut a new snapring groove into the body, but that's a $20 operation that is done once per shock. Simple.
So all we have to do is tap into the shock, weld on a little tab that we drill & tap for the Schraeder valve, and presto! You've got a Nextel Cup shock.
But it gets better - pull the shock apart, throw away the separator piston, and screw a remote canister into the Schraeder valve port (could be a Bilstein, or Penske, or Ohlins, or whatever) and now you have a remote-resevoir shock with a compression adjuster! And this can be done at any time after the initial conversion.
Of course, in order to mount a proper coilover spring, you need a good spherical bearing upper mount and a coaxial spring hat. Happily, we've developed these before - our 2G DSM suspension makes use of this technology. Adapting it for the EVO is simple:
http://farnorthracing.com/newimages/MR_rear.jpg
Now the front is a little trickier. Being an inverted strut, you can't mount the Schraeder valve in the side like you can with the rears. Ideally, we go down the upper mount stud, but the EVO stud is too small. So we're looking at converting the Mustang Cobra R strut (which has a nice fat M16 stud on it) to fit the EVO by modifying the foot on the shock to fit the EVO strut flanges. Then we'd do a custom upper mount/camber/caster plate to fit the larger Mustang shaft (which has the nice side-effect of being stronger too) The other nice side-effect is that the Mustang strut is MUCH cheaper as a raw material than the EVO parts.
The engineering on the rears is already done; I could start producing them almost immediately if there was demand. The fronts need some work yet, but it's all pretty straightforward stuff.
Now, cost.
At ATI, we use the best stuff. We figure if you're going to drop coin on parts, you want them to work right the first time with a minimum of hassle. So that means stuff like using the good, high-strength, tight-tolerence PNB spherical bearings (at $45 each) rather than the cheapo COM series bearings (at $10 each) We hard-anodize all our aluminum parts to make them scratch and gouge resistant. We nickel-plate our 41X0 steel parts for corrosion resistance. etc etc etc. But that raises the initial cost; there's just no way around that.
We're probably looking at a cost of around $700 per corner by the time everything is done.
On the bright side, the admittedly high initial cost is offset by the low service costs. Bilsteins tend to be a "pay now, save later" deal, where something like a Koni Sport is a "save now, pay later" deal.
Is there any interest?
DG
Looks liked the MR bilsteins is built liked their racing shocks, meaning that the internals can be swapped out! :shock:
http://forums.evolutionm.net/showpost.php?p=1913839&postcount=29
FarNorthRacing
Newbie
Personal Sales Rating: (0)
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 6
Offline
Old
Apr 28, 2005, 09:05 AM #29
Hey guys,
Dennis Grant here, the same DG that David Buschur occasionally mentions whenever sombody accuses him of being "just a drag racer"
I'm working for ATI Performance Engineering these days as their suspension/design engineer (amongst other things). We've had a couple of EVOs come through our doors, although I can't really give out details. And of course, I built that 2G DSM that won the SM ProSolo Championship a couple of years ago (details at http://farnorthracing.com )
I've had the EVO MR Bilsteins on our shock dyno, and they look VERY good. Somebody at Mitsubishi did their homework.
But there's another neat little side effect that comes from Mitsu using Bilsteins.....
Bilstein is a subsiderary of Krupp. Yes, THAT Krupp. They have monster ecomonies of scale (so parts are cheap) and the quality and repeatability is top-notch. A Bilstein is for all intents and purposes a Penske without the adjuster knobs.
But where things get really interesting is that all the internals of all Bilsteins interchange. There's 2 different body diameters, and all the parts that fit that body diameter fit other shocks of the similar diameter.
...including their racing shocks.
The guts inside a Bilstein Nextel Cup shock are the same guts that are inside an off the shelf OEM Bilstein. The shimstack and piston may not be *exactly* the same (different shimstacks and pistons make different forces) but they ARE interchangeable - and like I said, the parts are cheap and very high quality. A new shimstack is $10. A different piston is $25. Replacement rod seals are $25.
The one major difference between the racing shocks and the stuff used on the MR is that the race shocks have a Schraeder valve on them (like a tire valve) that allows the shocks to be pressurized and depressurized at will. Once you can do that, you can open up the shock very easily, and do any service on them very quickly. We recently timed how long it took me to get a Bilstein apart so it could be revalved, and it was less than 3 minutes.
It's simple enough that you can actually do it yourself if you are so inclined (it's a little messy, but a simple process) or if you'd rather have us do it (we dyno every shock we build to make sure it went together properly) it's a fast enough process that we don't have to soak you on labor charges - and did I mention that parts are cheap?
Oh yeah - the standard body diameter means that the coilover sleeves fit right on too. We have to cut a new snapring groove into the body, but that's a $20 operation that is done once per shock. Simple.
So all we have to do is tap into the shock, weld on a little tab that we drill & tap for the Schraeder valve, and presto! You've got a Nextel Cup shock.
But it gets better - pull the shock apart, throw away the separator piston, and screw a remote canister into the Schraeder valve port (could be a Bilstein, or Penske, or Ohlins, or whatever) and now you have a remote-resevoir shock with a compression adjuster! And this can be done at any time after the initial conversion.
Of course, in order to mount a proper coilover spring, you need a good spherical bearing upper mount and a coaxial spring hat. Happily, we've developed these before - our 2G DSM suspension makes use of this technology. Adapting it for the EVO is simple:
http://farnorthracing.com/newimages/MR_rear.jpg
Now the front is a little trickier. Being an inverted strut, you can't mount the Schraeder valve in the side like you can with the rears. Ideally, we go down the upper mount stud, but the EVO stud is too small. So we're looking at converting the Mustang Cobra R strut (which has a nice fat M16 stud on it) to fit the EVO by modifying the foot on the shock to fit the EVO strut flanges. Then we'd do a custom upper mount/camber/caster plate to fit the larger Mustang shaft (which has the nice side-effect of being stronger too) The other nice side-effect is that the Mustang strut is MUCH cheaper as a raw material than the EVO parts.
The engineering on the rears is already done; I could start producing them almost immediately if there was demand. The fronts need some work yet, but it's all pretty straightforward stuff.
Now, cost.
At ATI, we use the best stuff. We figure if you're going to drop coin on parts, you want them to work right the first time with a minimum of hassle. So that means stuff like using the good, high-strength, tight-tolerence PNB spherical bearings (at $45 each) rather than the cheapo COM series bearings (at $10 each) We hard-anodize all our aluminum parts to make them scratch and gouge resistant. We nickel-plate our 41X0 steel parts for corrosion resistance. etc etc etc. But that raises the initial cost; there's just no way around that.
We're probably looking at a cost of around $700 per corner by the time everything is done.
On the bright side, the admittedly high initial cost is offset by the low service costs. Bilsteins tend to be a "pay now, save later" deal, where something like a Koni Sport is a "save now, pay later" deal.
Is there any interest?
DG