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View Full Version : My hotchkis sway bar is the shiznit!!!



guntings
05-09-2005, 11:16 PM
I just installed a hotchkis rear sway bar and put it on the stiffest setting and I must say of all my mods, (p2 flash, throttle body, lowering springs, turbo back, intake) this inexpensive mod was the most significant of them all. I mean the difference is night and day. Not only am I cornering better, but my straight line acceleration is better now due to a stiffer rear suspension setup. When I accelerate hard from a rolling start or standstill, my car has more "spring" in its step because it is no longer hunkering down on the rear wheels when accelerating. It feels a lot more nimble and agile. Thanks Hotchkis Tuning!!! :D

vtluu
05-10-2005, 01:49 AM
When I accelerate hard from a rolling start or standstill, my car has more "spring" in its step because it is no longer hunkering down on the rear wheels when accelerating.
That's your imagination. A swaybar only affects cornering--and mainly steady-state handling as opposed to transitional. It links the two sides of the car and makes one side behave like the other--resulting in less roll. In straight-line acceleration it does absolutely nothing, since both sides of the car are equally loaded.

Case and point: one of my Hotchkis swaybar bracket snapped at the autocross practice at Rim of the World last Friday. I compensated by increasing the damping force on the rear shocks; this kept the car neutral for transitional handling--keeping it neutral while diving into a turn or making a left-right transtition (or right-left) but didn't help steady-state cornering; the car handled fine through the esses (transitional handling) but pushed a lot around the 360-degree "skidpad" style turn (steady-state).

I agree the Hotchkis swaybar is great though--bracket problems aside (I'm told they've done a redesign to fix this). I'm especially impressed with their customer support. Called them up today, told them the bracket had snapped at an autocross, and they took my address to ship me a new one, no questions asked.

earlyapex
05-10-2005, 10:44 AM
VTLUU,

You have bigger versions of the photos from Reno you using for your avatar?

lemme see, TIA!

redvolution
05-10-2005, 10:54 AM
Tam,

I saw you run 3 times at the AutoX on Saturday - was the swaybay disabled for the whole day? Did you end up with FTD on Saturday?

vtluu
05-10-2005, 11:42 AM
I saw you run 3 times at the AutoX on Saturday - was the swaybay disabled for the whole day? Did you end up with FTD on Saturday?
Yes, the swaybar was effectively disabled all day (and the next day at Streets of Willows); I first heard what turned out to be the swaybar clunking around early that morning while driving from the hotel to the rally.

Nevertheless yes, I did end up with FTD on my 4th and final run of the day, 28.580 if memory serves me correctly. So I have the satisfaction of knowing I beat out dozens of souped-up WRXs/STIs while running with a broken swaybar. 8)


You have bigger versions of the photos from Reno you using for your avatar?
Here's the full-res one: http://imagenode.com/mb

And a couple more from RFR (downsampled slightly):

http://imagenode.com/nb

http://imagenode.com/ob

dohcvtec
05-10-2005, 05:42 PM
that last pic is great Tam!

earlyapex
05-10-2005, 07:32 PM
yea great pics. Gotbluemilk do those?

So Tam, How would you rate Reno compared to Thill and Buttonwillow?

I read your review but honestly it didn't make it sound very good. :?

dohcvtec
05-10-2005, 07:50 PM
Last time I drove the Reno track it was only 1.5 miles long. It is very desolate out there, and not much evelation change. I've never driven Buttonwillow, but Reno does not compare to Thunderhill. However, this is coming from a guy who only tracks his Honda, so take it with a grain of salt, lol.

guntings
05-10-2005, 07:54 PM
I really beg to differ, vtluu... I felt a difference in straight line acceleration after I installed the sway bar and I know I ain't trippin. I'm definitely sure it's not my imagination.

dohcvtec
05-10-2005, 08:02 PM
You can beg to differ all you want, but it is simply not true. Just like Vtluu said, when accelerating in a straight line, the sway bar has absolutly no affect on the suspension. It is just there for the ride. Think of the sway bar as a big lever. Its only doing its job when one side has more load than the other, which it then distributes the load to that other side. When going in a straight line, both ends move in the same direction the same distance, so they do not act on each other.

guntings
05-10-2005, 08:20 PM
but you fail to realize that when you accelerate hard, especially on a softer suspension, the car will want to put its "ass" on the ground. Case in point; I have an AWD gas powered rc truck (which doesn't have any sway bars) that has oversized suspension components (control arms and shocks) and can do 50+ mph and when I gun the throttle, the truck will always put its ass to the ground... each and every time- its just elementary physics my dear...

evo_dadi
05-10-2005, 08:39 PM
hmm last time i checked straight accelaration benefits more from a good set up of shocks and springs.i need a sway bar then to get better times at sac raceway :wink: :lol:

dohcvtec
05-10-2005, 08:39 PM
You are missing the point. When the ass end goes down, how does the sway bar apply force back on to it? It doesn't, simple physics. The ass goes down, this means both ends of the sway bar are lifted at the same rate, same distance, therefore nothing is providing resistance besides the rear springs. The sway bar mounts are just a pivot, they do not prevent the sway bar from rotating inside of them, infact the sway bar is supposed to rotate inside the mounts, this is how it put load on the inside suspension when turning.

guntings
05-10-2005, 08:47 PM
well just call me crazy then because I definitely doooo feel something that I did not feel before I installed the sway bars...

EVO GRIM
05-10-2005, 09:15 PM
You're crazy.

guntings
05-10-2005, 10:37 PM
whatever....bitches.... :bs:

Unowned
05-10-2005, 10:45 PM
don't believe us? http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question432.htm

lancerboy
05-10-2005, 10:52 PM
You can beg to differ all you want, but it is simply not true. Just like Vtluu said, when accelerating in a straight line, the sway bar has absolutly no affect on the suspension. It is just there for the ride. Think of the sway bar as a big lever. Its only doing its job when one side has more load than the other, which it then distributes the load to that other side. When going in a straight line, both ends move in the same direction the same distance, so they do not act on each other. :werd:

guntings
05-10-2005, 10:53 PM
so what's your point?? it doesn't even talk about straight line acceleration... give me something that totally REFUTES the fact that sway bars doesn't affect straight line acceleration at all and you'll possibly have an argument...

lancerboy
05-10-2005, 10:53 PM
You're crazy. :lol: :lol: :lol:

guntings
05-10-2005, 10:59 PM
just believe what you want to believe but that's my story and im sticking to it. peace... :wink:

evo_dadi
05-10-2005, 11:01 PM
hmm can you post any 0-60ft times on before and after you got the swaybars :lol:

egui42
05-11-2005, 01:13 AM
hmm can you post any 0-60ft times on before and after you got the swaybars :lol:

:werd:

vtluu
05-11-2005, 03:00 AM
Hmm, didn't mean to start a shouting match... Here's my take: people often ask me if I can "feel" the difference before and after making a certain suspension change. At best I can only honestly say, "maybe". Maybe I'm just not good/advanced enough a driver--I'll be the first to admit it--but I don't really trust myself to objectively judge if there's a difference or not. Same as with power mods--when the "butt dyno" tells me I'm making more power, I take that with a grain of salt.

What do I trust? Lap/auto-x run times. I can't directly tell you if some suspension change I made the car corner flatter, but I can tell you, for example, that I went "x" seconds faster driving the car in a consistent manner. That means that before the change, I drove through a certain series of turns to the limit of what the car would allow, and again after the change, and after the change my lap time was "x" seconds faster. Where did those "x" seconds come from? Presumably from the fact that because the car cornered flatter, I could take those turns faster and get on the gas earlier without provoking understeer.

For example, last Saturday I definitely felt the car was pushing more through a "skidpad" style turn than it was the day before. I couldn't take the turn as fast as before and my times were consequently not as fast as before. I know now it was definitely because of the swaybar being broken (on Saturday), because at the time I didn't know it was broken--I had no idea what was wrong; I assumed it was something about my driving but run after run, I couldn't get the car to behave as it had the previous day. In other words, because knowledge of the swaybar being busted did not colour my perceptions of the car's handling, I consider those perceptions to be objective.

If I'd gone and swapped your swaybar in the middle of the night without your knowledge, and next day you told me that acceleration felt better, then maybe there would be something to your observation. But I bet you that if we took two stock Evos and put a stiffer swaybar on one of them, you wouldn't be able to tell which one was which from doing straight-line pulls. The "blind taste-test" principle.

kimmievo
05-11-2005, 08:38 AM
Well stated Tam!

earlyapex
05-11-2005, 09:45 AM
whatever....bitches.... :bs:

Take a look at your swaybar and endlink design and how they attach and then honestly think hard about how that would help straight line squat or whatever you are trying to say.

91z28-350
05-11-2005, 10:30 AM
A stiffer rear sway bar helps launching. You want as big a bar as you can get and softer springs and shock settings. You want squat and you want traction. A pure drag setup is totally unstreetable. You will break the rear loose all the time around a turn. A pure drag setup is different than a setup for auto-x and road racing.

The stiffer rear sway bar helps launching because it helps plant the tires by controlling torque steer and body roll during a launch. It creates an even launch, not a tilted launch (body-wise). A tilted launch causes uneven power application (because one wheel lifts slightly) and can cause you to leave the line sideways. That's how the bigger bar helps.

Now, unless you're going sideways, you're not going to notice it helping. So, that's all just mental. :)

Whooopasss
05-11-2005, 11:23 AM
A stiffer rear sway bar helps launching. You want as big a bar as you can get and softer springs and shock settings. You want squat and you want traction. A pure drag setup is totally unstreetable. You will break the rear loose all the time around a turn. A pure drag setup is different than a setup for auto-x and road racing.

The stiffer rear sway bar helps launching because it helps plant the tires by controlling torque steer and body roll during a launch. It creates an even launch, not a tilted launch (body-wise). A tilted launch causes uneven power application (because one wheel lifts slightly) and can cause you to leave the line sideways. That's how the bigger bar helps.

Now, unless you're going sideways, you're not going to notice it helping. So, that's all just mental. :)

I was thinking the same thing. With a bigger bar, at drag launch, the car twist to one side a little (torque). By twisting to one side, you will get uneven weight and traction on the rear wheels. With a bigger bar, this is greatly reduced there by getting better weight transfer from side to side and stabilizing the two rear wheels. Bigger bar also helps reduce wheel hop.
But being that our engine is transversed, torque tilt isnt that big of a problem.

So I say.. mayybeeeeee (ala fat bastard)

bdking57
05-11-2005, 11:33 AM
yeah.. as in maybe if you were making 400+whp there would be an accumulated difference. I have the hotcks rear sway to and ready to put it on though.. definately agree its the way to go for the price.

vtluu
05-11-2005, 11:43 AM
I don't think the Evo would lean much to one side or another under acceleration since it has a transversely-mounted engine; in a longitudinally-mounted engine I could see lean due to engine torque happening...

(I'm not an automotive engineer... but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express. :lol:)

lqdchkn
05-11-2005, 11:44 AM
A stiffer rear sway bar helps launching. You want as big a bar as you can get and softer springs and shock settings. You want squat and you want traction. A pure drag setup is totally unstreetable. You will break the rear loose all the time around a turn. A pure drag setup is different than a setup for auto-x and road racing.

The stiffer rear sway bar helps launching because it helps plant the tires by controlling torque steer and body roll during a launch. It creates an even launch, not a tilted launch (body-wise). A tilted launch causes uneven power application (because one wheel lifts slightly) and can cause you to leave the line sideways. That's how the bigger bar helps.

Now, unless you're going sideways, you're not going to notice it helping. So, that's all just mental. :)

I was thinking the same thing. With a bigger bar, at drag launch, the car twist to one side a little (torque). By twisting to one side, you will get uneven weight and traction on the rear wheels. With a bigger bar, this is greatly reduced there by getting better weight transfer from side to side and stabilizing the two rear wheels. Bigger bar also helps reduce wheel hop.
But being that our engine is transversed, torque tilt isnt that big of a problem.

So I say.. mayybeeeeee (ala fat bastard)

Agreed, and that's only a shot in the dark :!: The AWD would be the major negating factor :twisted:

91z28-350
05-11-2005, 12:56 PM
I don't think the Evo would lean much to one side or another under acceleration since it has a transversely-mounted engine; in a longitudinally-mounted engine I could see lean due to engine torque happening...

(I'm not an automotive engineer... but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express. :lol:)

I'm not neither. :)

It's lessened, but I believe it is still there. You won't have the direct counter-reaction twisting against the frame that a longitudinal mount would but you'll get movement as the wheels load against the suspension, hence, load against the chassis...unevenly (if you've cornerweighted a car you'll know what I mean). There are also the little shimmies from the torque moments and the play in the driveline.

In the end, suspension plays a big role in a good solid launch, so it's not wrong to say a bigger bar would help straight line. In fact, it's better to go insanely big for straight line. Wheel hop control is important also, as Whoopass intimated. A rear STB would help in that regard as well, to even out chassis flex. It's all about trying to control and even out the inertial moments, when binding the rears together.

guntings
05-11-2005, 07:00 PM
Well, before I had installed my bar, my suspension setup was relatively soft and I had just figured that anything added to that would vastly improve the handling characteristics of my otherwise stock evo. You all out there with upgraded stiffer coilovers and other suspension components would naturally "balk" at my "crazy" claim because it's just a sway bar and nothing else. But believe you me, if you put this sway bar at the stiffest setting (47% stiffer than the stock sway bar) on an otherwise stock suspension, there are going to be all around improvements in the overall driveability of the car. That's all I'm trying to say.


:skid:

trinydex
06-01-2005, 04:42 AM
When I accelerate hard from a rolling start or standstill, my car has more "spring" in its step because it is no longer hunkering down on the rear wheels when accelerating.
That's your imagination. A swaybar only affects cornering--and mainly steady-state handling as opposed to transitional. It links the two sides of the car and makes one side behave like the other--resulting in less roll. In straight-line acceleration it does absolutely nothing, since both sides of the car are equally loaded.

Case and point: one of my Hotchkis swaybar bracket snapped at the autocross practice at Rim of the World last Friday. I compensated by increasing the damping force on the rear shocks; this kept the car neutral for transitional handling--keeping it neutral while diving into a turn or making a left-right transtition (or right-left) but didn't help steady-state cornering; the car handled fine through the esses (transitional handling) but pushed a lot around the 360-degree "skidpad" style turn (steady-state).

I agree the Hotchkis swaybar is great though--bracket problems aside (I'm told they've done a redesign to fix this). I'm especially impressed with their customer support. Called them up today, told them the bracket had snapped at an autocross, and they took my address to ship me a new one, no questions asked.

i have been tossing this back and forth in my head for a few days and i have to disagree with at least one point... the sway bar will affect loading speed, things will load faster with a stiffer bar so transitional handling should be affected.

i guess in your failed bar situation... dampers can compensate for transitional loading... keeping the shit planted because of stiffness... however in a long sustained turn dambers can't help freewheeling and stuff like that which may explain your result.

i guess what i'm tryinna say is... that's not a good way to do things (compensate with damping, of course this is an emergency situation) and it's better to have a bar and the bar will have both transitional and sustained turn benefits.

vtluu
06-01-2005, 08:25 AM
Yes, working swaybars = good :lol: