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bdking57
05-31-2005, 04:26 PM
well ill try one last time to have it tuned and make some power.. if not im just gonna keep all my mods and move everything over to the IX or just get out of evoland all together.. which i really dont want to do.

I wrote the whole problem down here.. no responses yet.
http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=141653

chrisw
05-31-2005, 04:39 PM
well ill try one last time to have it tuned and make some power.. if not im just gonna keep all my mods and move everything over to the IX or just get out of evoland all together.. which i really dont want to do.

I wrote the whole problem down here.. no responses yet.
http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=141653

I know only one person who has the mini..

he got the non-supercharged 'cause it was cheaper, has slightly better brakes, and better gearing than the cooper S.

As for your other problem, don't knwo what to say...

other than IMHO, the SAFC is one step up from cow crap, there is not enough info there to offer a decent diagnosis

sorry..

earlyapex
05-31-2005, 04:46 PM
other than IMHO, the SAFC is one step up from cow crap,

And you think that because? What are you using?

bdking57
05-31-2005, 04:47 PM
marcel had no problem putting down 286whp with the safcII.. i believe cal also makes 299.1whp on the stock turbo on pump gas. i dont think thats the problem.

earlyapex
05-31-2005, 04:49 PM
In the right hands the safc can be very powerful. No idea why Chris W thinks it's crap.

methods4
05-31-2005, 04:58 PM
In the right hands the safc can be very powerful. No idea why Chris W thinks it's crap.

Ignorance? Bandwagon? Brainwashed by flash tuners? Dunno.

bdking57
05-31-2005, 05:43 PM
werent all the highest whp cars on stock turbos tuned wiht safcII at gruppe s this weekend?

chrisw
05-31-2005, 05:53 PM
In the right hands the safc can be very powerful. No idea why Chris W thinks it's crap.

It's sooooo easy to toast your motor with a SAFC... been there done that...

unfortuentely, with quotes like this:


I took them out and they were definately fouled.. very sooty and black with fragments on the tips

and this


There was an mbc in this car previously, and it was hooked up funny.


the prognosis does not look good.

earlyapex
05-31-2005, 06:01 PM
bdking57,

Where do you live? I could look over your car and try to figure out wtf is wrong.

earlyapex
05-31-2005, 06:02 PM
It's sooooo easy to toast your motor with a SAFC... been there done that...


Oh ok, so you didn't know how to tune worth ass and you blew up your motor with it which means SAFC's are dog crap.

Makes sense. :?

methods4
05-31-2005, 06:06 PM
It's sooooo easy to toast your motor with a SAFC... been there done that...


Oh ok, so you didn't know how to tune and you blew up your motor with it, its dog crap.

Makes sense. :?

http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/owned.gif

methods4
05-31-2005, 06:10 PM
It's sooooo easy to toast your motor with a SAFC... been there done that...

Of course it's easy to blow your engine if you don't know what you're doing. It's obvious *you* had no clue what you were doing. It makes *you* look like a step above cow shit, not the S-AFC.

I've ran S-AFCs in all of my DSMs and in my Evo and haven't blown a motor yet.

chrisw
05-31-2005, 06:17 PM
It's sooooo easy to toast your motor with a SAFC... been there done that...


Oh ok, so you didn't know how to tune worth ass and you blew up your motor with it which means SAFC's are dog crap.

Makes sense. :?

typical... :roll:

sure what ever... How many threads do you have to read before you agree?

problem with this product is there are no safe guards. It's like the old saying "you get what you pay for" and how much do you pay for a SAFC? not much....

thanks, but I will let a tuner figure it out until I have the time to learn how to do it properly with the right tools... I.E tuning with EGT's sucks arse..

Now that I know a little more about what I am doing, would I install an SAFC again? no not in my 30k EVO, not when there are far superior products on the market (UTEC, XEDE, not to mention ECU re-flashing) It's not worth the risk.

earlyapex
05-31-2005, 06:23 PM
Ok I understand that but you saying the SAFC is just garbage is totally wrong.

In the right hands, its a powerful tool. No safe guards? Neither do any of the other solutions you just provided. Can you seriously tell me if you where tuning the UTEC you couldn't blow your motor?

I'm sorry you have butterfingers.

Next you are going to say its crap cause it doesn't control timing. Ever heard of larger injectors?

Who says I am tuning with just EGT's? I don't even have a EGT hooked up yet in the evo.

chrisw
05-31-2005, 06:31 PM
Ok I understand that but you saying the SAFC is just garbage is totally wrong.

In the right hands, its a powerful tool. No safe guards? Neither do any of the other solutions you just provided. Can you seriously tell me if you where tuning the UTEC you couldn't blow your motor?

I'm sorry you have butterfingers.

Next you are going to say its crap cause it doesn't control timing. Ever heard of larger injectors?

don't put words into my mouth..

I never said it was complete garbage, just short of it.

as for the other tools, I'll admit that "no safe gaurds" was not an accurate choice of words, but the tuning tools for the other products are far superior to what is available with the SAFC...

When I toasted the motor in my talon, using the SAFC, it was due to my own ignorance. But thanks to the supposed close nit BA-DSM community (who offered no assistance helping me set the SAFC) I had to learn on my own. Wideband O2 sensors were hard to come by and very expensive, "tuning by EGT" and narrow band was still the norm...

The SAFC made it very easy to do the wrong thing, which I did quite effectively... It sounds like the "tuner" in this case made a similar mistake.

Would a UTEC or XEDE be any different? probably not. I threw them out there as alternatives to your blessed SAFC....

From the way you sound, you make the SAFC the best tuning product known to the evo universe.... jeez.. get real dude.. :roll: There are far better alternative to that cheap arse POS.

methods4
05-31-2005, 06:31 PM
Ok I understand that but you saying the SAFC is just garbage is totally wrong.

In the right hands, its a powerful tool. No safe guards? Neither do any of the other solutions you just provided. Can you seriously tell me if you where tuning the UTEC you couldn't blow your motor?

I'm sorry you have butterfingers.

Next you are going to say its crap cause it doesn't control timing. Ever heard of larger injectors?

No no, next he is going to say his engine blew because the S-AFC was really cheap compared to a WORK$ reflash. You get what you pay for right? (Nah, couldn't of been his fault that he blew his motor. AFC's fault.)

You win chrisw!!! You've really convinced us that the S-AFC is garbage. Time to sell it!

earlyapex
05-31-2005, 06:33 PM
don't put words into my mouth..

I never said it was complete garbage, just short of it.

nice reply chris "my evo has 50/50 weight distribution because I was reading cross weights wrong" w

methods4
05-31-2005, 06:45 PM
don't put words into my mouth..

I never said it was complete garbage, just short of it.

nice reply chris "my evo has 50/50 weight distribution because I was reading cross weights wrong" w

Haha, link me to the idiocy, please.

earlyapex
05-31-2005, 06:47 PM
Haha, link me to the idiocy, please.

http://www.norcalevo.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=33780#33780


MINI content:

http://www.mini2.com/images/minixxl/spa_thumb.jpg

http://www.mini2.com/images/minixxl/front_thumb.jpg

chrisw
05-31-2005, 06:51 PM
No no, next he is going to say his engine blew because the S-AFC was really cheap compared to a WORK$ reflash. You get what you pay for right? (Nah, couldn't of been his fault that he blew his motor. AFC's fault.)

IMHO, the SAFC is crap compared to any ECU reflash. I'll take a works flash anyday over a SAFC




You win chrisw!!! You've really convinced us that the S-AFC is garbage. Time to sell it!

Do yourself a favor and get rid of that POS. technology moves forward and you want to trust something that old on your new car. what ever floats your boat...



anyhow, getting back on topic...

You might consider looking at the NA mini. Not so pricy, maybe the markup won't be as bad (if any)

earlyapex
05-31-2005, 06:57 PM
IMHO, the SAFC is crap compared to any ECU reflash. I'll take a works flash anyday over a SAFC

oh yea crap. Is that why I dynoed higher than works reflashes at the dyno day with comparable supporting mods?

Not to mention my AFR was a recockuliously rich 10.X since I tuned it really fast the night before.

and the WORKS must be better since they where running a really safe 12.X AFR in the high end.

yea, you know what you are talking about.

MINI content:

http://www.nicholasjones.org/archives/20041118MiniPromo/Image016.jpg

methods4
05-31-2005, 07:05 PM
Do yourself a favor and get rid of that POS. technology moves forward and you want to trust something that old on your new car. what ever floats your boat...

Fortunately, I have some intelligence not to melt my motor using an AFC. It's too bad they didn't put any safeguards in for people that don't really understand how to tune. They should've actually put a disclaimer on their package saying, "If you're dumb enough to melt your motor because of your lack of tuning knowledge, please put this package down." It would've saved you thousands on your DSM, no?

And yes technology moves forward. If every single reflashed car at the dyno meat this past weekend dyno'd better than Bryan's car then sure, I'll give the reflash a second look. But IIRC, that didn't happen. I'll save my $300 and make more power than a reflash thank you.

Oh, and I won't have to go back and get reflashed for every single mod I add. Oh and I won't have to pay for a reflash if I add another manufacturer's part.

EDIT:
With no spare tire, 1/4 tank of gas, the EVO was almost a perfect 50/50 balence front to rear, and left to right.

With the driver, the balence went to 60/40 front to rear

Damn you're a smart one!!!

earlyapex
05-31-2005, 07:10 PM
With no spare tire, 1/4 tank of gas, the EVO was almost a perfect 50/50 balence front to rear, and left to right.

With the driver, the balence went to 60/40 front to rear


http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/wtf.gifhttp://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/metallicblue.gifhttp://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/pat.gif

MitsuMan
05-31-2005, 07:16 PM
the afc is fine but you have to check and double check you tune make shure you have a good connection just having a little resistance in your maf signal can change things alot. its not fool prove though and i would have to say its the least best way to change your a/f ratio but to each his own one of the biggest problems is its so easy to keep fucking with and ajusting so if you keep playing with its you could throw a decent tune right out the window if you don't know what your doing oh and it would be nice if it had some kinda logger and dosn't it tune just in like a 2D map style? not very versitile I had one on both my dsm's and i never had a problem but I shure wouldn't run one on my Evo when I'M pushing 24 25 psi I want to be shure I have my car diald in good ya know? Bushur likes it but I think he's kinda a little backwoods style with the 4g63 He getts results though to each his own Right?

MarkSAE
05-31-2005, 08:03 PM
Alright you guys, here's an unbiased list of pros and cons for the AFC and the Flash. I had an AFC on my 1g, DSMLink on my 2g, and now a flash on my EVO. Each product has its' strengths and weaknesses, so pick whatever suites you best.

AFC Pros:
- cheap initial cost
- allows you to make on-the-fly adjustments
- gives you the ability you tune closer to the edge to yield higher whp #s and 1/4 mile times (if you know what you're doing)
- proven to work relatively well on the evo

AFC Cons:
- AFC settings only affect open loop performance
- requires a lot of time to get a good, safe, ROBUST tune
- tuning on the street is dangerous
- requires an EGT gauge at the very minimum in the car (adds to initial cost)
- should have a wideband in the car when tuning (adds to initial cost)
- should have a datalogger when tuning (adds to initial cost if you don't have one already)
- dyno tuning will add more to inital cost
- alters MAF signal which can bump you down to the more aggressive timing curve if you lean out the signal enough
- cannot make independent timing adjustments
- can cause major damage if used in the wrong hands

Flash Pros:
- EGT gauge, wideband, and datalogger not required
- no need for street or dyno tuning to get a good tune
- once you're flashed, it's done and ready for the track
- timing adjustments are made independently of air/fuel adjustments
- off-boost power and cruise air/fuel ratios can be tuned (closed loop tune)
- can utilize factory ECU safeguards (factory boost control)

Flash Cons:
- higher initial cost
- generic robust tunes will not yield optimal dyno #s and 1/4 mile times since they have to be safe enough for thrashing on a road course
- cannot make on-the-fly adjustments
- have to get reflashed for different mods
- have to get reflashed to adjust boost (P2)

chrisw
05-31-2005, 09:11 PM
That's a nice post mark,

but these idi... "individuals" are more interested in bashing than having an intelligent conversation.:roll:

Why lower yourself to their level?

It tech threads like this one that make me feel like I am reading a honda forum or something..

earlyapex
05-31-2005, 10:09 PM
[quote="MarkSAE"]
AFC Cons:
- AFC settings only affect open loop performance
There is a lo-throttle map for closed loop tuning
- requires a lot of time to get a good, safe, ROBUST tune
true
- alters MAF signal which can bump you down to the more aggressive timing curve if you lean out the signal enough
why is this bad?
- cannot make independent timing adjustments
independent, true, no timing adjustments, not totally true, larger injectors will give you more timing.
- can cause major damage if used in the wrong hands
Very true, as shown by Mr. 50/50

earlyapex
05-31-2005, 10:11 PM
That's a nice post mark,
but these idi... "individuals" are more interested in bashing than having an intelligent conversation.:roll:

You said SAFC was a step above dog poop. I asked you why you thought that. You said it sucked because you blew up your motor with one and now you are bitter boy.

intelligent?

MitsuMan
05-31-2005, 10:11 PM
I believe the afc is a good tool for someone with an OBDI car because if your have such a car you have plenty of miles on it and you ll be glad to drop another motor in it when you lose the one your tunning(testing) on as for the rest of us with exedes well.... :lol: just kidding I only know what works for me get it done how ever ya like and more power to ya

MitsuMan
05-31-2005, 10:14 PM
IMHO, the SAFC is crap compared to any ECU reflash. I'll take a works flash anyday over a SAFC

oh yea crap. Is that why I dynoed higher than works reflashes at the dyno day with comparable supporting mods?

Not to mention my AFR was a recockuliously rich 10.X since I tuned it really fast the night before.

and the WORKS must be better since they where running a really safe 12.X AFR in the high end.

yea, you know what you are talking about.


dude I wouldn't be that proud of out tunning a works flash yea ok ok I said it does that mean I'm out of the club now sorry :)

chrisw
05-31-2005, 10:29 PM
That's a nice post mark,
but these idi... "individuals" are more interested in bashing than having an intelligent conversation.:roll:

You said SAFC was a step above dog poop. I asked you why you thought that. You said it sucked because you blew up your motor with one and now you are bitter boy.

intelligent?

SAFC = dog poop. yep, that's my opinion
bitter about blowing a head gasket via detonation? yep... you betcha. First track day, made 8 laps (less than my instructor) and pop... you would be bitter too.

intelligent? yep.. more intelligent than your responses.

I freely admit that when I was learning how to use the SAFC that I fucked up, but you have convientely ignored that little fact, continuing on your little bash fest. how immature. .


but what ever... your posts paint their own picture of who you are.

MarkSAE
05-31-2005, 10:32 PM
AFC Cons:
- AFC settings only affect open loop performance
There is a lo-throttle map for closed loop tuning
- requires a lot of time to get a good, safe, ROBUST tune
true
- alters MAF signal which can bump you down to the more aggressive timing curve if you lean out the signal enough
why is this bad?
- cannot make independent timing adjustments
independent, true, no timing adjustments, not totally true, larger injectors will give you more timing.
- can cause major damage if used in the wrong hands
Very true, as shown by Mr. 50/50

Your ECU uses your front o2 sensor as primary feedback for closed loop mapping. Hence, playing around w/ the lo-throttle settings won't affect closed loop af ratios.

Too much timing can be a bad thing ya know, especially on our 91 octane pee. I'm sure we're pushing the limits of our gas already running 1.3-1.4 bar of boost on an 8.8:1 compression motor. You're only going to decrease your safety margin by bumping up your timing. How much do you want to tune to the edge? How much timing is too much timing on pump gas? Do you feel comfortable running the extra timing from your 720s while you're flogging your car around the road course in the summer heat? This is where you need to invest many hours into your tune to make it robust enough to withstand extreme conditions.

On a secondary note, the 720 injectors scale differently than our stockers and 660s. The injector dead time for the stockers and 660s are around 180us, vs. 450us for the 720s. This is why the 720s were notorious for causing driveability problems in DSMs when used with an AFC.

I never had much luck using 720s on my 1g DSM on pump gas. My AFC settings bumped me onto the more aggessive timing curve and I was constantly knocking. On race gas, it was perfect. But the evo is a different car and your results will be different. The same principles do apply.

nebolic
05-31-2005, 10:43 PM
for fucks sake's people, stay on topic. Any more horseshit from anyone, gets a nice SAFC up their ass. Try to help bdking out with his tune not justify what's better or who's got the bigger dick. That contest is already won by bukakke face earlyapex.

:D

thanks

nebo

kimmievo
05-31-2005, 11:05 PM
Brian needs our help...can we stop bickering for one moment and try to give advice to a fellow evo brotha?!!? Not trying to add fuel to the fire, but this is getting a bit off topic, and I know how frustrating it can be when you are asking for help and peeps are getting into arguements.


Anyways Brian, wish I could be of more help, but I am just now starting to learn about the SAFCII.

I really hope you find out what is going on soon. I'm kinda having the same problem, but not as extreme. I was pulling 14.1:1 afr at 4800 rpm, so I am running pretty lean too.

Keep us all posted of the outcome!

ez76
05-31-2005, 11:05 PM
in before the clock

evo_dadi
05-31-2005, 11:16 PM
hey brian i think its better you go back to square one on everything rather dumping some cash on another car ;) youre gonna need to spend a good amount of dynotime to dial in the right settings for your car since each car reacts differently.the first time my evo got tuned took almost 5 hours on the dyno :shock: but the result was really good and it pretty much gave way to more fine tuning later on.

here's something you can try to do;get your ebc set on 19 psi straight with no fancy early boost setting yet since you want to get things set first.before getting dynotuned get new plugs installed and maybe throw in some fuel injector cleaner just in case theyre a bit dirty or clogged.and at least half a day of freetime while watching and waiting for your car to get done from the dyno :wink: :lol:

earlyapex
05-31-2005, 11:30 PM
for fucks sake's people, stay on topic. Any more horseshit from anyone, gets a nice SAFC up their ass. Try to help bdking out with his tune not justify what's better or who's got the bigger dick. That contest is already won by bukakke face earlyapex.



Brian needs our help...can we stop bickering for one moment and try to give advice to a fellow evo brotha?!!?


bdking57,

Where do you live? I could look over your car and try to figure out wtf is wrong.

On the first page. I already gave him some advice in the other thread. The next step in me helping him is to actually look over the car. I wish I knew he was at the dyno day, I would have taken a look then.

earlyapex
05-31-2005, 11:32 PM
I really hope you find out what is going on soon. I'm kinda having the same problem, but not as extreme. I was pulling 14.1:1 afr at 4800 rpm, so I am running pretty lean too.


You get a scan of your dyno sheet with the AFR curve yet? Did you add your HKS intake before or after you got your P2?

earlyapex
06-01-2005, 12:04 AM
Your ECU uses your front o2 sensor as primary feedback for closed loop mapping. Hence, playing around w/ the lo-throttle settings won't affect closed loop af ratios.

Are you saying changing my lo-throttle settings doesn't change my af ratio at idle, crusing and part throttle?

MarkSAE
06-01-2005, 03:55 AM
Are you saying changing my lo-throttle settings doesn't change my af ratio at idle, crusing and part throttle?

Oops, idle gets affected. But not cruise and part throttle. Front o2 signal is the primary feedback is used for cruise and part throttle. As a test, play around w/ your afc settings to see if they affect your highway mpg. If you set your AFC to -20%, you will not run a 20% leaner cruise AF ratio.

It isn't until the ECU goes into open loop mode when it starts using the lookup tables for the fuel maps with the corresponding MAF reading.

methods4
06-01-2005, 09:16 AM
SAFC = dog poop. yep, that's my opinion
bitter about blowing a head gasket via detonation? yep... you betcha. First track day, made 8 laps (less than my instructor) and pop... you would be bitter too.

intelligent? yep.. more intelligent than your responses.

I freely admit that when I was learning how to use the SAFC that I fucked up, but you have convientely ignored that little fact, continuing on your little bash fest. how immature. .


but what ever... your posts paint their own picture of who you are.

50/50cent,

OK, you blew your motor tuning with an AFC. Your fault. I would not be bitter if it happened. I would fully blame it on myself. Before you start messing with it, you should know the consequences. Did you think some kind of secret safeguard was gonna save you?

You cannot dismiss the AFC as very good and cheap tool to make power though. As Bryan said before, in the right hands it works just fine. In the wrong hands, it can make people bitter torwards it and start to spread rumors about how shitty it is. Even if I didn't currently have an AFC on my Evo, I would still be standing up for it. To say that it is dog poop is ignorance. I'm not bashing any reflashes or standalone ECUs or other piggybacks, just saying that the AFC is a viable option up until a certain point.

As far as this bashfest, you started bashing the AFC, we started bashing you for your ignorance. Make sense?

earlyapex
06-01-2005, 09:23 AM
Oops, idle gets affected. But not cruise and part throttle. Front o2 signal is the primary feedback is used for cruise and part throttle. As a test, play around w/ your afc settings to see if they affect your highway mpg. If you set your AFC to -20%, you will not run a 20% leaner cruise AF ratio.

It isn't until the ECU goes into open loop mode when it starts using the lookup tables for the fuel maps with the corresponding MAF reading.

So you are telling me when I am cruising at 3400 rpms on the highway, and my pocketlogger tells me my STFT is 10% and I change the SAFC settings at 3400 rpms and my STFT goes down or up depending on what I change I am imagining all that?

How is idle closed-loop different than part-throttle cruising closed-loop? The 02 still cycles.

009
06-01-2005, 09:28 AM
damn too much fighting not enuff info. newbie try to learn so pls keep it
informative. :?

MarkSAE
06-01-2005, 09:50 AM
So you are telling me when I am cruising at 3400 rpms on the highway, and my pocketlogger tells me my STFT is 10% and I change the SAFC settings at 3400 rpms and my STFT goes down or up depending on what I change I am imagining all that?

The STFT value represents how much correction your ECU needs to make in order to get your cruise a/f ratios as close to stoich as possible. So your ECU will try to compensate for the adjustments made through your AFC if it's in closed loop mode.

This file has good info:
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h44.pdf

Read page 5-6.

zyounker
06-01-2005, 09:51 AM
Well, the S-AFC is far from optimal.. but the argument above is a joke.. There is almost useful information..

AFC Cons:

VERY low resolution and only 2D maping
Tune can change due to ecu learning or changing maps.
No timing control.
Bad tune will blow up engine


Reason why AFC is ok:

Allows real time control of fuel curve. <- may only be one thing but when tuning a car, its kinda an important one ;)



Flash cons

No control over anything
bad tune will blow up engine.
supports ignorance. :D <-- sorry had to add this one

Reasons why a flash is ok:

If you dont want to or know how to tune your car it still allows you to increase the performance.




Now personally i think both solutions are crap :D but understand why many people have shown good results with both..


I rather go with any standalone... but they also have there cons.. the learning curve is MUCH greater and they are have a fairly high initial cost. but the fuel and timing resolution blow the crap out of the stock ECU. They have TONS of more features as well.

earlyapex
06-01-2005, 09:55 AM
The STFT value represents how much correction your ECU needs to make in order to get your cruise a/f ratios as close to stoich as possible. So your ECU will try to compensate for the adjustments made through your AFC if it's in closed loop mode.


But that is still control over a/f. I change a setting, things change. If it didn't wouldn't you think a car would run like ass in closed-loop with 720's when the ecu thinks it has 560's?

There is a an area where the ECU cannot change STFT enough -/+. That is where the SAFC comes in to adjust the signal so the ECU doesn't have to change STFT as much.

MarkSAE
06-01-2005, 10:10 AM
There is a an area where the ECU cannot change STFT enough -/+. That is where the SAFC comes in to adjust the signal so the ECU doesn't have to change STFT as much.

Okay, I see your point in using the AFC to help get the STFTs in range. My point is that the AFC can't adjust closed loop af ratios since the ECU is constantly trying to adjust it to stoich.

earlyapex
06-01-2005, 10:15 AM
Okay, I see your point in using the AFC to help get the STFTs in range. My point is that the AFC can't adjust closed loop af ratios since the ECU is constantly trying to adjust it to stoich.

yup, but the SAFC can help it.

For the record, I am by no means saying the SAFC is a end-all solution to EM.

it's not even close when things like the AEM EMS, MoTec, etc are on the market.

For the do-it-yourself tuner that wants more control than a reflash and doesn't have a heavily modded car, I think its a great solution.

if I went to bigge turbo, etc etc would I still be using a SAFC? Doubt it. Would probably move onto the AEM EMS which has an outstanding feature set and support.

chrisw
06-01-2005, 10:18 AM
SAFC = dog poop. yep, that's my opinion
bitter about blowing a head gasket via detonation? yep... you betcha. First track day, made 8 laps (less than my instructor) and pop... you would be bitter too.

intelligent? yep.. more intelligent than your responses.

I freely admit that when I was learning how to use the SAFC that I fucked up, but you have convientely ignored that little fact, continuing on your little bash fest. how immature. .


but what ever... your posts paint their own picture of who you are.

50/50cent,

OK, you blew your motor tuning with an AFC. Your fault. I would not be bitter if it happened. I would fully blame it on myself. Before you start messing with it, you should know the consequences. Did you think some kind of secret safeguard was gonna save you?

You cannot dismiss the AFC as very good and cheap tool to make power though. As Bryan said before, in the right hands it works just fine. In the wrong hands, it can make people bitter torwards it and start to spread rumors about how shitty it is. Even if I didn't currently have an AFC on my Evo, I would still be standing up for it. To say that it is dog poop is ignorance. I'm not bashing any reflashes or standalone ECUs or other piggybacks, just saying that the AFC is a viable option up until a certain point.

As far as this bashfest, you started bashing the AFC, we started bashing you for your ignorance. Make sense?

what ever...

you must have missed the 2 separate posts where I clearly accepted the blame... how convienant for you.

but at least this the original poster is getting the help he needs (no thanks to you or me )

Reading this thread (the on topic parts) just re-enforces how much I think the SAFC is crap. There are far better products out there.

zyounker
06-01-2005, 10:26 AM
Things to look at:


PowerFC: PnP Standalone developed by Apex-i. used on RX-7s for years with great results


I believe AEM & MicroTec both have PnP Solutions as well.


If you want to do the wiring yourself:

Electromotive, Haltech, Motech, Autotronics, Microtec, AEM to name a few....


When picking a standalone i would pick one that had the best suport locally. If you need help, it is best to have someone around who can help you. And most standalones can be argued to the death, but in the end, they are all good choices. Some better then others sure. but none are bad.

SouthernCrane
06-01-2005, 10:31 AM
This file has good info:
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h44.pdf



Sorry to be OT, but thanks for the link Mark :D

MarkSAE
06-01-2005, 10:40 AM
No prob Bryan.

The reason why I chose to go the flash route was because I got tired of spending countless hours street, dyno, and track tuning my DSMs. I have like a gig of dsmlink datalogs on my laptop. Tuning and making power on racegas was easy compared to our pump gas. I was constantly trying to tune for 0 knock and would always get these random spikes in knock count. It was very frustrating. I would always have to check my tune whenever the weather changed just to make sure it was good and safe.

In addition to performance tuning, I was also constantly tuning to get my STFTs and LTFTs in range. What a PITA! To a lot of people, including me, sometimes knowing less is better!

Going the flash route requires the owner to have a lot of blind faith in the tuner. I'm still finding this concept a bit hard to grasp at times. But I am glad I don't have to constantly check my tune anymore. It's nice to be able to just hop in my evo and just beat the living crap out of it w/o having to worry (much.. heheh).

zyounker
06-01-2005, 10:46 AM
Going the flash route requires the owner to have a lot of blind faith in the tuner. I'm still finding this concept a bit hard to grasp at times. But I am glad I don't have to constantly check my tune anymore. It's nice to be able to just hop in my evo and just beat the living crap out of it w/o having to worry (much.. heheh).


See, if you had gone full standalone you could have tuned for weather changes and such and after a while you *should* have been able to get a good enough tune that you do not have to play with it daily..


That is a very big problem associated with piggy back systems.

earlyapex
06-01-2005, 10:47 AM
Mark,

Totally agree with you. That's why, when I had my wrx after all my DSMs, I said fug tuning myself, I am going to get a reflash.

I bought the COBB reflash, and later, the accessport. I didn't like it. It knocked like hell, cut all my timing, my EGT's where through the roof.

The funniest thing was, the wrx actually ran better, with no knock, on their 93 octane map (with cali 91) instead of their 91 octane map.

After that experience, I decided I wanted to go back to knowing and being able to change my own tune on my own car.

Do I think all reflashes blow chunks because of my experience with COBB? Nope. I just had a bad experience and wanted to go back to what I had done on all my DSM's before.

MarkSAE
06-01-2005, 10:57 AM
See, if you had gone full standalone you could have tuned for weather changes and such and after a while you *should* have been able to get a good enough tune that you do not have to play with it daily..

That is a very big problem associated with piggy back systems.

I contemplated going the standalone route so I could ditch the limitations of the stock ecu, but it got to a point where I just told myself it wasn't worth the time, money, and trouble anymore. I thought about getting an AEM EMS for my evo at one point, but decided against it since I wanted to keep a basic setup. It would have been nice to learn how to use the EMS though. If only I had my own dyno and race track in my backyard so I could do all my own tuning!

zyounker
06-01-2005, 11:19 AM
I got by pretty well using just a wideband for fuel tuning.. Generally i used factory timing though.. (timing is where the power is at, but also the most dangerous to tune)

Basically start with a good base map and just played with fuel to get it reliable. Then save up money to replace your engine before you try to tune timing ;) EGT guage is also a very useful tool for tuning in conjunction with a wideband.


Dyno tuning is only really good for timing anyway. But a nice open road without law inforcment would be nice for tuning fuel. ;)


This was on a RX-7 using a haltech e6k though.

EFIxMR
06-01-2005, 11:52 AM
Hey guys, I'm a noob on this board, but do dyno tuning for a living, and i just thought i'd throw in some thoughts on this topic.

While i don't doubt that the AFC works (in fact i have a brand new one sitting in my house), when you start to add it all up to get it working the way it needs, you are spending quite a bit of money.

AFC $300
patch harness $125
Wideband $350
palm datalogger $3XX??

on top of that i spent $200 on a reflash already, $85 on a halman mbc, and 100 on a walboro.

that's a lot of money personally for something that is pretty limited.

After coming to terms with this, i ordered up an AEM for $1395 shipped. I wonder why more people in Norcal don't go this route. I'm by no means an AEM expert, but i have tuned them before, and they aren't hard to use.

Is it because you guys think that they have drivability problems? Well, maybe the next meet you guys have you can take a demo in my car.

earlyapex
06-01-2005, 11:55 AM
No I think the AEM EMS is a great proven EM with great support and I said that above.

I'm not ready for it, that's all.

MarkSAE
06-01-2005, 12:01 PM
You still need a wideband with the EMS.

How are the base maps that are included w/ the EMS now anyway? I remember they used to only be good enough for you to turn the engine over shortly after the EMS was introduced.

EFIxMR
06-01-2005, 12:04 PM
well, just think about it this way... if you buy an aem it gives you something to do between sessions. datalogging :twisted:

EFIxMR
06-01-2005, 12:13 PM
That's true you do need a wideband, but if you take it to a tuner he will have that equipment.

My friend recently purchased an AEM and he is really happy with it. He said the base map worked well, and his experience was what really sold me to the system. I know him from back in our honda days, and we are both hardcore motec tuners. From our phone conversations he says he hasn't even dynoed the car yet, and just been street tuning with no complaints. Just huge grins.

I think if more people here in norcal moved to an AEM, we could see numbers like people on evom are with the stock turbo.

kimmievo
06-01-2005, 12:15 PM
I really hope you find out what is going on soon. I'm kinda having the same problem, but not as extreme. I was pulling 14.1:1 afr at 4800 rpm, so I am running pretty lean too.


You get a scan of your dyno sheet with the AFR curve yet? Did you add your HKS intake before or after you got your P2?

Nope, haven't scanned it yet. The intake was my very first mod about a year ago, the P2 was added about 3 months ago.

JanSolo
06-01-2005, 12:18 PM
I wonder why more people in Norcal don't go this route. I'm by no means an AEM expert, but i have tuned them before, and they aren't hard to use.

Is it because you guys think that they have drivability problems?

Name a local tuner that tunes the AEM EMS on the Evo. I can't.

EFIxMR
06-01-2005, 12:22 PM
ic, well depending on my results maybe i can help change that :D

zyounker
06-01-2005, 12:31 PM
I wonder why more people in Norcal don't go this route. I'm by no means an AEM expert, but i have tuned them before, and they aren't hard to use.

Is it because you guys think that they have drivability problems?

Name a local tuner that tunes the AEM EMS on the Evo. I can't.


I am sure there are plenty but i just moved here so i really can't name any..

If anyone is looking for help though, i would be glad to help out were i can.. Like i said though, i stay away from timing as my current experience is not good enough IMO to tune timing. (I would want to do it on my own car before other peoples ;))


As for base maps, most of them are good enough. but it depends on the EMS you choose. Alot of the time there are communities around the EMS that can help you get a base map specific to your car as well as point you to tuners in your area.

chrisw
06-01-2005, 01:00 PM
I wonder why more people in Norcal don't go this route. I'm by no means an AEM expert, but i have tuned them before, and they aren't hard to use.

Is it because you guys think that they have drivability problems?

Name a local tuner that tunes the AEM EMS on the Evo. I can't.

I am not 100% sure, but I think Gruppe-s will do the AMS tuning. I know that Mike was looking into this after they got their dyno installed.

GST
06-01-2005, 02:14 PM
I wonder why more people in Norcal don't go this route. I'm by no means an AEM expert, but i have tuned them before, and they aren't hard to use.

Is it because you guys think that they have drivability problems?

Name a local tuner that tunes the AEM EMS on the Evo. I can't.

I am not 100% sure, but I think Gruppe-s will do the AMS tuning. I know that Mike was looking into this after they got their dyno installed.

Correct, we have tuned a few AEM EMS on various cars including the Evo.

Mike

EFIxMR
06-01-2005, 02:34 PM
another plus for the aem is the possibly of better fuel economy. i don't know about you guys but mine sucks with the stock computer.

zyounker
06-01-2005, 05:19 PM
another plus for the aem is the possibly of better fuel economy. i don't know about you guys but mine sucks with the stock computer.


That has nothing to do with the computer.. learn to control your right foot ;) hahah


I have a similar problem i only get 11-13mpg..


(i know the stock computer is pig rich)

earlyapex
06-01-2005, 08:07 PM
with factory ecu and no SAFC yet I got about 18-20mpg on average.

about 12-17 having fun.

and 5mpg on track.

trinydex
06-01-2005, 09:10 PM
It's sooooo easy to toast your motor with a SAFC... been there done that...


Oh ok, so you didn't know how to tune worth ass and you blew up your motor with it which means SAFC's are dog crap.

Makes sense. :?

typical... :roll:

sure what ever... How many threads do you have to read before you agree?

problem with this product is there are no safe guards. It's like the old saying "you get what you pay for" and how much do you pay for a SAFC? not much....

thanks, but I will let a tuner figure it out until I have the time to learn how to do it properly with the right tools... I.E tuning with EGT's sucks arse..

Now that I know a little more about what I am doing, would I install an SAFC again? no not in my 30k EVO, not when there are far superior products on the market (UTEC, XEDE, not to mention ECU re-flashing) It's not worth the risk.

yer wrong... and you should stop talkin' now... the safc is a piggyback... that means all the safegaurds ALREADY BUILT INTO YOUR CAR are still intact. if you need safe gaurds beyond that you need to stop touching your fucking car.

what kind of an assclown are you? you think flashes are better...? now tell me what's so better... besides the fact that you can ride al's teabags... or maybe you like how the works flash throws lean codes... or maybe you just like paying lots of money for no performance like most evo owners.

ez76
06-01-2005, 09:39 PM
See, if you had gone full standalone you could have tuned for weather changes and such and after a while you *should* have been able to get a good enough tune that you do not have to play with it daily..

That is a very big problem associated with piggy back systems.

I don't think there is anything fundamental about piggybacks that would prevent them from accounting for weather changes. In fact isn't it the opposite, since with piggybacks, the ECU is still in a position to apply coolant temp., intake temp., and other built-in correction tfactors including the all-important knock retard.

With a standalone you might be in direct control of these correction tables but to play devil's advocate, it's also just more to screw up.

Either way, closed feedback loops should beat correction factors and that's really what's needed, standalone or not. CL fuel control is a reality today with the UTEC, and CL boost control is on deck for the XEDE, so this shouldn't be a worry for too long.

I think people use "piggyback" to mean "limitations of traditional piggybacks" but piggybacks are looking more like standalones every day.

earlyapex
06-01-2005, 09:53 PM
It's sooooo easy to toast your motor with a SAFC... been there done that...


Oh ok, so you didn't know how to tune worth ass and you blew up your motor with it which means SAFC's are dog crap.

Makes sense. :?

typical... :roll:

sure what ever... How many threads do you have to read before you agree?

problem with this product is there are no safe guards. It's like the old saying "you get what you pay for" and how much do you pay for a SAFC? not much....

thanks, but I will let a tuner figure it out until I have the time to learn how to do it properly with the right tools... I.E tuning with EGT's sucks arse..

Now that I know a little more about what I am doing, would I install an SAFC again? no not in my 30k EVO, not when there are far superior products on the market (UTEC, XEDE, not to mention ECU re-flashing) It's not worth the risk.

yer wrong... and you should stop talkin' now... the safc is a piggyback... that means all the safegaurds ALREADY BUILT INTO YOUR CAR are still intact. if you need safe gaurds beyond that you need to stop touching your fucking car.

what kind of an assclown are you? you think flashes are better...? now tell me what's so better... besides the fact that you can ride al's teabags... or maybe you like how the works flash throws lean codes... or maybe you just like paying lots of money for no performance like most evo owners.
http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/drama.gifhttp://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/lupie.gifhttp://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/drama.gifhttp://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/lupie.gifhttp://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/drama.gifhttp://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/lupie.gifhttp://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/drama.gifhttp://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/lupie.gifhttp://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/drama.gifhttp://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/lupie.gifhttp://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/drama.gifhttp://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/lupie.gifhttp://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/drama.gifhttp://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/lupie.gif

JanSolo
06-01-2005, 09:59 PM
what kind of an assclown are you? you think flashes are better...? now tell me what's so better... besides the fact that you can ride al's teabags... or maybe you like how the works flash throws lean codes... or maybe you just like paying lots of money for no performance like most evo owners.

Mellow.. Chris is not insulting you. No need for engaging in verbal fisticuffs because he doesn't like an SAFC.

FYI - Chris does not even have a reflash, AFAIK, so you are barking up the wrong tree.

zyounker
06-01-2005, 10:39 PM
See, if you had gone full standalone you could have tuned for weather changes and such and after a while you *should* have been able to get a good enough tune that you do not have to play with it daily..

That is a very big problem associated with piggy back systems.

I don't think there is anything fundamental about piggybacks that would prevent them from accounting for weather changes. In fact isn't it the opposite, since with piggybacks, the ECU is still in a position to apply coolant temp., intake temp., and other built-in correction tfactors including the all-important knock retard.

With a standalone you might be in direct control of these correction tables but to play devil's advocate, it's also just more to screw up.

Either way, closed feedback loops should beat correction factors and that's really what's needed, standalone or not. CL fuel control is a reality today with the UTEC, and CL boost control is on deck for the XEDE, so this shouldn't be a worry for too long.

I think people use "piggyback" to mean "limitations of traditional piggybacks" but piggybacks are looking more like standalones every day.


Just because something allows you more control doesnt mean you should shy away.. you can blow up your car with an AFC..


Either way you need to know what you are doing before you do it.



With the AFC you can alter it so that it puts you in a different timing map.. without knowing your timing, you can not tune effectively.. Luckly the evo ECU is pretty good about when it sees knock it will retard the timing to help save you. But some cars are not so lucky..


I'm not saying the AFC is terrible, i am just not giving it more credit then it is due.. it is a piggyback that modifies singles going to the ECU to trick it.. So it is not only limited to the stock ECU programing, if you are not familiar with the ECU you have attached it to, you can easily do damage to your car.


Standalones are obviously better. thats why they cost more. there is also a larger learning curve if you want to dive deap into them.. but if you use a base map and just modify your fuel curve they are really not different then an AFC except for the fact that they CORRECTLY display what is happening in the engine and have dataloging facilities. The AFC has NO clue what is happening in the ECUs programing/maps. that is up to the tuner to know.

Whooopasss
06-01-2005, 11:27 PM
what are your opinions on someone setting an safcII tune to -22 on 91 octane at 1.5 bar without attempting to trouble shoot the problem? according to anything posted on this board.. this is pure insanity. It seems like the tune was contradictory to anything i have seen posted.. the scariest part on the a/f was at 2600 which was at 12.9 A/F

And if this is your setup

Helix Downpipe, 02, HF Cat, RsR Catback, Fidanza Cam Gears, Ralliart Radiator Shroud, AVC-R, SAFC II, Walbro 255, FPR

This is insane! -22 on a 91 oct with your setup (no injector upgrade) is asking for trouble. For 91 oct with no injector upgrade, stay below -17.

I have AFC and I went with AFC since I dont have money (got a wife and 3 younglings). I tuned my afc for the safe side, not for optimal performance but for better than stock performance which I am happy with it. If you have money then go with something better.

Also, I wont even go more than 20 PSI on a stock injector and 91 oct.

If I were you bdking, I would remove the afc, afr and bc and start from scratch and observe your engine if it is running as it should stock. Then when everything looks fine start all over again with the parts you have. Have you done a compression test? maybe your injectors needs cleanning and balancing?

as with

Here are some questions im thinking about.. if one sparkplug was completely fouled and that cylinder was misfiring.. would this cause the afr to appear super rich when the other cylinders were lean? ( i know nothing about this at all if it isnt obvious)

I believe the afr takes an average of all, what I am saying is that the velocity of exhaust gases where the probe sits runs so fast that it wont have time to compensate for the pulse that one of your cylinder that is running rich or lean that can cause a faulty reading.

My opinion.

trinydex
06-02-2005, 01:01 AM
what kind of an assclown are you? you think flashes are better...? now tell me what's so better... besides the fact that you can ride al's teabags... or maybe you like how the works flash throws lean codes... or maybe you just like paying lots of money for no performance like most evo owners.

Mellow.. Chris is not insulting you. No need for engaging in verbal fisticuffs because he doesn't like an SAFC.

FYI - Chris does not even have a reflash, AFAIK, so you are barking up the wrong tree.

uhm... i find this odd... cuz i most certainly am presumtuously barking up the wrong tree but where is the rebuke for his barking up the wrong tree? the barking about who blew up his motor?

like i said... if you can't tune... don't... there are many people that can tune... many shops that wanna take your money so they can put your car on their rollers and twist little knobs around. you can't blame the product for the fault of the user... this is your typical wah wah

but i'll go ahead and just formally take back what i said about riding teabags and stuff...

Whooopasss
06-02-2005, 11:20 AM
Lets just get along.. opinions on a product is not an attack on someone directly who is using it.

I mean AFC is a big dog poo if not tuned right.. AEM EMS is a big doog poo is not tuned right. Here in the US, Apex-1 Power FC is a doog poo since no one knew how to tune it at first when in japan it was a god sent.

If one has no success in tunning one tool, then they call it shit, but for others who has success in tuning that same tool call it a god sent.

chrisw has his opinion on the AFC, we should just note it down and not think that it is a personal attack on you who uses it. (I have an AFC2) he DID NOT say "people who use afc2 as shit". IT may have implied that he did, but he dint.

I have an opinion on automatic pumpkin seed extractor but that does not mean I hate the person who has one or look down on them. Nothing personal, just an opinion on a product.

Evo community in norcal is a small community, lets keep it healthy and productive.

**group Hug**

Kumbayaaa... my lord kumbaya..

Absinthe
06-02-2005, 12:06 PM
I'm with chriW SAFC= not that sweet.

trinydex calm down, or we can launch in to a socal style safc vs the world battle, which invariably given the limited range of the AFC on its own makes for a fun time. no knock control, no timing advance, no logging, no boost control.

JanSolo
06-02-2005, 01:30 PM
uhm... i find this odd... cuz i most certainly am presumtuously barking up the wrong tree but where is the rebuke for his barking up the wrong tree? the barking about who blew up his motor?

He didn't insult you and call you an assclown. For some reason, just because someone does not prefer your method of tuning, you deem fit to talk shit about that person. So please - just mellow out. There is no reason to make this personal.

009
06-02-2005, 01:43 PM
lock this up pls. me lmao more then actually learning some thing about safc or reflash. stop fighting. shit go to the gym to release your macho juice. :)

Absinthe
06-02-2005, 01:45 PM
lock this up pls. me lmao more then actually learning some thing about safc or reflash. stop fighting. shit go to the gym to release your macho juice. :)

come on its funny

trinydex
06-02-2005, 01:58 PM
it's not about him not preferring my method of tuning... i'm a fan of most products of tuning (flashes are not tuning, cuz you flash every single time... a flash is like... iunno... but it's not tuning... i guess it's a one time tune).

it's just that people blame things on other things cuz they refuse to admit fault... and he's pretty blind to it himself...

btw... safc does have knock control... just what the stock ecu uses. if anything xede has some sort of knock detection suppressor... that would have less knock control... but most peopel that run safe tunes with that i think take the suppression away.

JanSolo
06-02-2005, 02:19 PM
it's just that people blame things on other things cuz they refuse to admit fault... and he's pretty blind to it himself...

Actually he did admit that it was his fault in this post (http://www.norcalevo.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=58162#58162). Perhaps you should reconsider your statement about ChrisW being blind.



I freely admit that when I was learning how to use the SAFC that I fucked up, but you have convientely ignored that little fact, continuing on your little bash fest.

Absinthe
06-02-2005, 02:22 PM
The Xede has the option to supress some of the factory knock control in the ecu or to run normal knock correction, it also has predictive knock capability. In the AFC for an evo you are relying solely on the knock control contained in the ECU, hence the afc has no knock control itself.

All I saw was a fire thought I'd throw gas on it.

Utec has many of the same chracteristics as the Xede as well, can't speak to emanage. And of course if money isnt an issue EMS is much more indepth.

kimmievo
06-02-2005, 03:10 PM
lock this up pls. me lmao more then actually learning some thing about safc or reflash. stop fighting. shit go to the gym to release your macho juice. :)


I agree with 009! This bashing is just assinine. :roll: Everyone has their own opinions about products but keep this vitriol to yourself!

chrisw
06-02-2005, 03:11 PM
btw... safc does have knock control... just what the stock ecu uses. if anything xede has some sort of knock detection suppressor... that would have less knock control... but most peopel that run safe tunes with that i think take the suppression away.

actually, the SAFC does not have knock control, at least the old style unit I had didn't have it (this was almost 5 years ago). But I hear that the new SAFC-II does have knock readings. :thumbsup:

beyond that, I don't think much of your posts, but I will be nice since JanSolo among others has gone out of his way to try to clear this up...

thanks guys

kimmievo
06-02-2005, 03:19 PM
Um, I think some of us owe Brian an apology....Hopefully he is getting some help on evom. A big thanks to the members that actually gave some useful advice.

Can we officially lock this thread now? lol

JanSolo
06-02-2005, 03:28 PM
beyond that, I don't think much of your posts, but I will be nice since JanSolo among others has gone out of his way to try to clear this up...

Chris, you definitely did not deserve this kind of flame fest for simply posting an opinion about a product that people didn't agree with.

And with that said, this thread has certainly served it's purpose and then some. Yet, I would prefer not to lock it so long as people can keep their cool and just exchange information and educate others rather than just talking mad shit.

kimmievo
06-02-2005, 03:51 PM
beyond that, I don't think much of your posts, but I will be nice since JanSolo among others has gone out of his way to try to clear this up...

Chris, you definitely did not deserve this kind of flame fest for simply posting an opinion about a product that people didn't agree with.

And with that said, this thread has certainly served it's purpose and then some. Yet, I would prefer not to lock it so long as people can keep their cool and just exchange information and educate others rather than just talking mad shit.


Ok, coolio. But, according to Nebo, someone is getting an SAFC shoved up their arse. Who's the lucky member? lol

Anyways, back to the useful knowledge....

chrisw
06-02-2005, 04:00 PM
beyond that, I don't think much of your posts, but I will be nice since JanSolo among others has gone out of his way to try to clear this up...

Chris, you definitely did not deserve this kind of flame fest for simply posting an opinion about a product that people didn't agree with.

And with that said, this thread has certainly served it's purpose and then some. Yet, I would prefer not to lock it so long as people can keep their cool and just exchange information and educate others rather than just talking mad shit.


Ok, coolio. But, according to Nebo, someone is getting an SAFC shoved up their arse. Who's the lucky member? lol

Anyways, back to the useful knowledge....

well, it's certainly not me. :wink:

The only good thing that came out of this crappy thread is that it looks like Brian is finally getting the help he needs to figure this out.

jeez, the shit you have to go through just to get someone the help they need :roll:

earlyapex
06-02-2005, 04:07 PM
actually, the SAFC does not have knock control, at least the old style unit I had didn't have it (this was almost 5 years ago). But I hear that the new SAFC-II does have knock readings. :thumbsup:


*I'm not flaming*

Actually all the AFC's and SAFC's use the knock control built into the stock ECU since they are piggybacks, even the one you had.

I think the problem you might have ran into, like Mark said, is that if you use the SAFC to lean out the mixture, at some point, the ECU goes into a more agressive timing map because the SAFC is tricking the ECU into thinking it has alot less air coming in. Which means lots-o-timing. Which means if you knock enough, and your timing is advanced enough, bad things can happen, since the stock ECU pulls timing *after* the knock event. Lots of timing + substantial amount of knock = kablooie. Now, this is where advanced timing can be good or bad depending on how on-the-edge your tune is.

The new SAFC-II has knock readings but unfortunatly does not work on the EVO.

*I'm not flaming*

JanSolo
06-02-2005, 04:25 PM
*I'm not flaming*



YAY!

http://www.afghan-web.com/gallery/hug.jpg

earlyapex
06-02-2005, 04:33 PM
http://www.ic.sunysb.edu/Stu/dtperez/care%20bear.jpg

turbotiger
06-02-2005, 05:10 PM
Ok to sum it up,

Chris W blew up his engine because of an incorrect SAFC tune, therefore he hates things he has to fiddle with. Hence the flash route.

SAFC is a good tuning tool in the correct hands. It's not the best, but for the price, it's a good tool. There are better products, but they also cost more.

Stand alone is the ultimate in tuning, but again, don't give it to someone who breaks cars by lifting the door handle.

Even ECU reflashes can cause engine damage / blow up engines if not flashed correctly. You are assuming that the person doing the flashes know what they are doing.


Speaking of stand alone, anybody know run the PowerFC? What's the street price of one for the evo? I'm curious to see how it compares with the AEM EMS.

trinydex
06-02-2005, 06:59 PM
stfu tuning knows how to use the power fc... and he'd say it's one of the best standalones if not the best standalone in the world. i think it's gotta be well sorted... it doens't have the sensor calibration forever crank up thing... you just gotta find someone that really knows how to use it. cuz that's hard to come by.

evo_dadi
06-02-2005, 08:08 PM
dont you have to be an authorized power excel tuner by apexi?

GST
06-02-2005, 09:31 PM
dont you have to be an authorized power excel tuner by apexi?

To get the software yes, to use the FC Commander no.

That being said you can buy the software on the internet if you know where to look.

Mike

evo_dadi
06-02-2005, 10:08 PM
ive heard of that before and got yelled at at the socal board :shock: :lol:

trinydex
06-02-2005, 10:43 PM
or you can just get it pirated.

methods4
06-03-2005, 01:15 AM
Ok to sum it up,

Chris W blew up his engine because of an incorrect SAFC tune, therefore he hates things he has to fiddle with. Hence the flash route.

SAFC is a good tuning tool in the correct hands. It's not the best, but for the price, it's a good tool. There are better products, but they also cost more.

Stand alone is the ultimate in tuning, but again, don't give it to someone who breaks cars by lifting the door handle.

Even ECU reflashes can cause engine damage / blow up engines if not flashed correctly. You are assuming that the person doing the flashes know what they are doing.

I lup you James. http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/love.gif

GokuSSJ4
06-03-2005, 11:19 AM
Hey guys, I'm a noob on this board, but do dyno tuning for a living, and i just thought i'd throw in some thoughts on this topic.

While i don't doubt that the AFC works (in fact i have a brand new one sitting in my house), when you start to add it all up to get it working the way it needs, you are spending quite a bit of money.

AFC $300
patch harness $125
Wideband $350
palm datalogger $3XX??

on top of that i spent $200 on a reflash already, $85 on a halman mbc, and 100 on a walboro.

that's a lot of money personally for something that is pretty limited.

After coming to terms with this, i ordered up an AEM for $1395 shipped. I wonder why more people in Norcal don't go this route. I'm by no means an AEM expert, but i have tuned them before, and they aren't hard to use.

Is it because you guys think that they have drivability problems? Well, maybe the next meet you guys have you can take a demo in my car.
if you decided to add everythign
here is a simple way
SAFC 300
injectors 720cc 400
TBE 700
Walbro 95
MBC 50
MR making 345whp on 91 octane with Dr. Gray tuning = Priceless
IMO every evo owner should have an air/fuel gauge along with egt's.
Pocket logger its 175.00 for the record.
I'm glad that we have several solutions and we are not limited to one thing. Some choose a different route than others, as long as we see results and motors are not blowing (the important part) its what matters the most.

EMS is one the best EM available but for most evo owners that have not upgraded the turbo or haven't done mayor work, is not worth the xtra $$$$ IMO.
setting up an EMS is not cheap
since the unit is near 1500.00
sensors 300.00
custom intake pipe (changing to speed -density) 100.00
tuning 400.00
dyno tuning 200.00
just to give you an idea how expensive the EMS can be

Absinthe
06-03-2005, 02:29 PM
Hey guys, I'm a noob on this board, but do dyno tuning for a living, and i just thought i'd throw in some thoughts on this topic.

While i don't doubt that the AFC works (in fact i have a brand new one sitting in my house), when you start to add it all up to get it working the way it needs, you are spending quite a bit of money.

AFC $300
patch harness $125
Wideband $350
palm datalogger $3XX??

on top of that i spent $200 on a reflash already, $85 on a halman mbc, and 100 on a walboro.

that's a lot of money personally for something that is pretty limited.

After coming to terms with this, i ordered up an AEM for $1395 shipped. I wonder why more people in Norcal don't go this route. I'm by no means an AEM expert, but i have tuned them before, and they aren't hard to use.

Is it because you guys think that they have drivability problems? Well, maybe the next meet you guys have you can take a demo in my car.
if you decided to add everythign
here is a simple way
SAFC 300
injectors 720cc 400
TBE 700
Walbro 95
MBC 50
MR making 345whp on 91 octane with Dr. Gray tuning = Priceless
IMO every evo owner should have an air/fuel gauge along with egt's.
Pocket logger its 175.00 for the record.
I'm glad that we have several solutions and we are not limited to one thing. Some choose a different route than others, as long as we see results and motors are not blowing (the important part) its what matters the most.

EMS is one the best EM available but for most evo owners that have not upgraded the turbo or haven't done mayor work, is not worth the xtra $$$$ IMO.
setting up an EMS is not cheap
since the unit is near 1500.00
sensors 300.00
custom intake pipe (changing to speed -density) 100.00
tuning 400.00
dyno tuning 200.00
just to give you an idea how expensive the EMS can be


Gokus you forgot EGT gauge cost as well as install cost as well as the one 03 gsr that made 268whp on the same set up; and who made 345 on what dyno runing a 91 octane map?

I'm not one to be a fan boy but this is cool, yeap the Xede is a total POS:

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=142221&page=1&pp=15

earlyapex
06-03-2005, 02:48 PM
wasn't that 345whp made on a uber-gai dynopak where they figured out like eleventy billion conversion factors to get them to 345whp?

And if that was actually Scot's MR you are talking about, you forgot the cams.

GokuSSJ4
06-03-2005, 05:27 PM
wasn't that 345whp made on a uber-gai dynopak where they figured out like eleventy billion conversion factors to get them to 345whp?

And if that was actually Scot's MR you are talking about, you forgot the cams.
sorry you are right ! i forgot to mention that he has dual 272/272's even tho, thats plenty of hp out of SAFC set up and to make it even worse on 91 octane :wink:

zyounker
06-03-2005, 06:40 PM
A narrow band A/F gauge is virtually useless.. I do agree that an EGT gauge is very useful though. If you want to monitor A/F buy a wideband.. they are inexpensive enough now a days.

I also think your #'s are kinda off as well.

Retail the microtec LT8 with all the needed sensors except maybe a 3bar map sensor is $1100 and I think i paid ~1K for my haltech e6K over 2 years ago.

But you can easily find it for much less: http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=413870&highlight=microtech+group+buy

(recent RX7club GB) $767 + 137 for a 3bar map sensor.


So ~900 you can get into some EMS'


You say changing to speed-density cost $100, last i checked it cost ~$40 for a K&N cone filter.

Tuning you pay for either way, unless you go with a flash. So that does not really make a difference.

Is a standalone more money? Yes, it does a hell of alot more.

Something you don't mention is that most standalones are much more capable then a stock ECU. They have much better intropolation as well as resolution.

Plus they have amazing dataloging capabilities. they also have TONS of other features many of us would find useful.


With all that said, i don't think most people on here should buy and install an EMS themselves. Maybe if there was a shop around here that would install and tune them.. I just wanted to show that they dont have to be overly expensive.

With a wideband, egt, and a EMS a car can be tuned.






Hey guys, I'm a noob on this board, but do dyno tuning for a living, and i just thought i'd throw in some thoughts on this topic.

While i don't doubt that the AFC works (in fact i have a brand new one sitting in my house), when you start to add it all up to get it working the way it needs, you are spending quite a bit of money.

AFC $300
patch harness $125
Wideband $350
palm datalogger $3XX??

on top of that i spent $200 on a reflash already, $85 on a halman mbc, and 100 on a walboro.

that's a lot of money personally for something that is pretty limited.

After coming to terms with this, i ordered up an AEM for $1395 shipped. I wonder why more people in Norcal don't go this route. I'm by no means an AEM expert, but i have tuned them before, and they aren't hard to use.

Is it because you guys think that they have drivability problems? Well, maybe the next meet you guys have you can take a demo in my car.
if you decided to add everythign
here is a simple way
SAFC 300
injectors 720cc 400
TBE 700
Walbro 95
MBC 50
MR making 345whp on 91 octane with Dr. Gray tuning = Priceless
IMO every evo owner should have an air/fuel gauge along with egt's.
Pocket logger its 175.00 for the record.
I'm glad that we have several solutions and we are not limited to one thing. Some choose a different route than others, as long as we see results and motors are not blowing (the important part) its what matters the most.

EMS is one the best EM available but for most evo owners that have not upgraded the turbo or haven't done mayor work, is not worth the xtra $$$$ IMO.
setting up an EMS is not cheap
since the unit is near 1500.00
sensors 300.00
custom intake pipe (changing to speed -density) 100.00
tuning 400.00
dyno tuning 200.00
just to give you an idea how expensive the EMS can be

GokuSSJ4
06-03-2005, 08:46 PM
like i posted before, it was an idea to what the EMS can cost. I don't have anything against it. I also mention that the EMS is the best thing available on the market $$$$$, but its not for your typical evo owner that doesn't want to deal with some of the issues (nothing bad) if you want to learn to tune the car, starting with the SAFC and a pocket logger is the first step. Tuning an EMS is no joke, and for most people out there any piggy back will do (if you haven't done anything mayor mod wise).
EMS 1500.00

sensors to be exact 30-2112 3.5-Bar Boost (or Exhaust pressure) Sensor. Brass sensor body with 1/8" NPT male thread, hose barb adapter. Measure boost pressure up to 36 psi. $140

GM-AIT GM Air Intake Temperature Sensor, Includes connector. 3/8" NPT male fitting. This does work well, we like it. $25

also you need a new intake pipe so give and take (depending how picky you are ) 75-100.00


to wire the EMS and change it to speed density its near 200-250.00
Its worth every penny but for most evo owners a flash or piggy back will do.


Also if you don't purchase the UEGO with it, you need to have some type of wide band. For the www.zeitronix.com its near 399.00 + egt probe (60.00)

EFIxMR
06-03-2005, 09:03 PM
personally, there's no way i'm going to hack up my wire harness on my evo to install an afc. i seen enough hack jobs that people have done on their honda to know that it is a mistake. while i'm sure there are some of you who know how to make a solid crimp or proper solder joint, there are tons of people who don't.

I don't think its a necessity to change to speed density on the EMS. and even if you did the GM 3 bar is $79 bucks and AIT is $35 bucks retail. The fact that the EMS also acts as an electronic boost control with the $35 GM solenoid makes it a great value.

My friend who put me on to the EMS hasn't even ever had his car on a dyno. He street tuned it and has no complaints.

i agree that the EMS is not for everyone, but for people who track their car frequently and like to tinker with it, to me it seems like the most practical solution.

in all honestly i don't think the EMS is even the best EFI system out there, but for the money it really can't be beat, given all the things it can do.

LEVIII
06-03-2005, 10:58 PM
what are widebands going for lately anyway?

zyounker
06-03-2005, 10:58 PM
I know you were not saying it was bad. Just that i disagree with some of your #s.


With my RX-7 my haltech could use ALL of the stock sensors. (microtec is the same)The only reason to get the 3bar map is to boost higher then 1 bar. You can buy the sensor For ~70 too. .it came stock on the 84 T/A turbo firebird. So you can pick it up at most auto parts store.

As for wiring up the car.. almost every EMS comes with a flying lead harnes.. So to wire it up cost as much as you spend on solder and heatshrink.. Im sure if you paid someone else it would be a sizeable amount.

If you wire it up yourself you remove the maf. put a K&N filter on the turbo and you are done.. if you want you should use an intaked charge tube with the filter on the end to get cooler air. (This is more specific to the evo) So nothing really special needs to be done.


the LTX microtec has a uego controller.. So you can just buy the sensor as well ;)


(Alot of engine managments do this, i just have more experience with microtec and haltecs)


I have nothing against any of the methods discribed in here. I just want to provide more information for people.




like i posted before, it was an idea to what the EMS can cost. I don't have anything against it. I also mention that the EMS is the best thing available on the market $$$$$, but its not for your typical evo owner that doesn't want to deal with some of the issues (nothing bad) if you want to learn to tune the car, starting with the SAFC and a pocket logger is the first step. Tuning an EMS is no joke, and for most people out there any piggy back will do (if you haven't done anything mayor mod wise).
EMS 1500.00

sensors to be exact 30-2112 3.5-Bar Boost (or Exhaust pressure) Sensor. Brass sensor body with 1/8" NPT male thread, hose barb adapter. Measure boost pressure up to 36 psi. $140

GM-AIT GM Air Intake Temperature Sensor, Includes connector. 3/8" NPT male fitting. This does work well, we like it. $25

also you need a new intake pipe so give and take (depending how picky you are ) 75-100.00


to wire the EMS and change it to speed density its near 200-250.00
Its worth every penny but for most evo owners a flash or piggy back will do.


Also if you don't purchase the UEGO with it, you need to have some type of wide band. For the www.zeitronix.com its near 399.00 + egt probe (60.00)

EFIxMR
06-04-2005, 12:20 AM
i never run a haltec or a microtech... but i think there's a couple things that might give you difficulty if you intend on installing it on an EVO.

idle control motor (4 wire stepper motor)
fan
a/c request
a/c fan
alternator control

then theres the other outputs

boost control
fuel pump
tach output

That is a lot of GPO's required, not to mention a lot of time spent on the ocilliscope to get all the parameters figured out.

Absinthe
06-04-2005, 02:58 AM
bah I'll live it up with wide band adaptive tuning....

TarmacAttack
06-04-2005, 03:47 AM
So everybody is mentioning peak numbers, I would be more worried about the overall curve gain and hp dips that might occur, but never felt because of the momentum of the car while using a butt dyno.

earlyapex
06-04-2005, 07:31 AM
personally, there's no way i'm going to hack up my wire harness on my evo to install an afc.

That's why you use a harness.

zyounker
06-04-2005, 10:16 AM
Actually I believe the only one that was an issue about a year ago was the alternator control.. The idle control is very common and the microtec should be able to control the stock one.. I know it can control the BAC on the RX-7. (The equivelant)

You can control the fans with the PWMs.. they are just simple relays you have to send a 12V single to.


As for the alternator, i suppose it would be easiest to just replace it with a normal one.



i never run a haltec or a microtech... but i think there's a couple things that might give you difficulty if you intend on installing it on an EVO.

idle control motor (4 wire stepper motor)
fan
a/c request
a/c fan
alternator control

then theres the other outputs

boost control
fuel pump
tach output

That is a lot of GPO's required, not to mention a lot of time spent on the ocilliscope to get all the parameters figured out.