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View Full Version : Anybody driven big willow and have any feedback?



hagakure
07-05-2005, 05:54 PM
Would like to know about people's experiences on this track.


Percy

StockEVO
07-05-2005, 06:09 PM
http://www.rcrewracing.com/dan/trackday/street%20001.jpg

http://www.rcrewracing.com/dan/trackday/street%20002.jpg

http://www.rcrewracing.com/dan/trackday/street%20004.jpg

http://www.rcrewracing.com/dan/trackday/street%20005.jpg

http://www.rcrewracing.com/dan/trackday/street%20006.jpg

http://www.rcrewracing.com/dan/trackday/street%20007.jpg

http://www.rcrewracing.com/dan/trackday/street%20008.jpg

http://www.rcrewracing.com/dan/trackday/street%20009.jpg

http://www.rcrewracing.com/dan/trackday/street%20010.jpg

http://www.rcrewracing.com/dan/trackday/street%20011.jpg

http://www.rcrewracing.com/dan/trackday/street%20012.jpg

http://www.rcrewracing.com/dan/trackday/street%20013.jpg

earlyapex
07-05-2005, 06:15 PM
:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

vtluu
07-05-2005, 06:24 PM
Yikes, well I'll try not to do that when I'm driving there this Sunday. :lol:

I'm pretty sure that's Streets of Willow Springs in the photos though.

StockEVO
07-05-2005, 06:28 PM
Yeah my bad! But close enough. :D Dunno how you effing crash that bad at SOW's.

vtluu
07-05-2005, 06:29 PM
I think Big Willow is kinda the same--except the wall doesn't give quite as much. :shock:

Seriously though, what I've been told is that although most of the runoff at Big Willow is not too uneven, it is filled with sharp rocks. I went off sideways in turn 7 at SOWS and even though I was able to drive out of it and even run another session, I bent a wheel, tore up my undertray and front bumper lip, and significantly tweaked my alignment (not to mention threw a pile of dirt into my car). Total cost, about $800--and that's for a fairly "minor" off. Be careful out there...

Matz
07-05-2005, 06:52 PM
umm... damn that is scary. Makes me not want to go to the track anymore! Yikes!

vtluu
07-05-2005, 07:00 PM
umm... damn that is scary. Makes me not want to go to the track anymore! Yikes!
Well, there are plenty of people who track their cars and never get into an accident like that. And despite the risks, what are the alternatives?
- Drive fast on public roads, with even greater risk of injury to yourself and others;
- Wait around for hours to drive fast for a few minutes in a parking lot dodging plastic safety cones;
- Drive your $30+k sports car like a $10k grocery-getting econobox, live a long and boring life.

Your choice... 8)

dohcvtec
07-05-2005, 09:12 PM
Yeah my bad! But close enough. :D Dunno how you effing crash that bad at SOW's.
I thought I recognized those pics, you know Dan from RCrew?

Matz
07-05-2005, 10:17 PM
umm... damn that is scary. Makes me not want to go to the track anymore! Yikes!
Well, there are plenty of people who track their cars and never get into an accident like that. And despite the risks, what are the alternatives?
- Drive fast on public roads, with even greater risk of injury to yourself and others;
- Wait around for hours to drive fast for a few minutes in a parking lot dodging plastic safety cones;
- Drive your $30+k sports car like a $10k grocery-getting econobox, live a long and boring life.

Your choice... 8)

Hmm... yeah okay, I didn't work hard to buy this car and not enjoy it! I guess unfamiliar tracks just freak me out when I see stuff like that.

vtluu
07-05-2005, 10:22 PM
Fair enough... but I've seen plenty of pretty nasty road accident photos and it doesn't stop me from getting in my car and driving wherever I need or want to go. Do your best to mitigate the risks--run with a club that pays good attention to safety and instruction, keep your head in the game--and have fun with it. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. 8)

smack
07-05-2005, 10:48 PM
hunter s. thompson said it best...

i'd rather be shot out of a cannon than squeezed out of a tube

earlyapex
07-05-2005, 10:50 PM
hunter s. thompson said it best...

i'd rather be shot out of a cannon than squeezed out of a tube

Amen to that.

redvolution
07-06-2005, 11:35 AM
I've driven 3 days at big willow, 1 open day with redline and 2 with BMW CCA (A group) in April. My instructor the second day, Tony, was a former GTP racer and had some great advice for my car. Before I get to that here are the relevant mods:
- Kumho Ecsta MXes (left front overheated even tho it was a cool day)
- Hotchkis hollow rear bar on full stiff
- alignment with -1.75 (max) front and -.85 rear, 0 toe all around
- Works croxx plate
- Works P2, TB, 3" DP, IP, and AB (UR test pipe)

T1: Difficult because approach speed is high and it has lots of camber so long as you get the apex right (it's a little early). You should aim to apex just at the end of raised reflective bumps. If you're wide and fast it could be a problem because the camber disappears as you go wide.
T2: conventional line is to stay wide and slowly bring it in for a very late apex but Tony showed me a much better line: carry more speed into the corner by taking a very tight line and allow the car to scrub speed by sliding a bit – 4wd keeps everything in check and the track is wide with lots camber. I caught all sorts of people in that corner and passed them btw 2 and 3.
T3: First mistake on T3 was trying to get the car lined up parallel to the track too soon which made it feel unstable. Better move was to just aim straight ahead at the Bud tower and enter the braking zone at a slight angle, maximizing the time on the throttle from 2. I had trouble with a consistent turn in point but it was somewhere beyond the pavement seam change. That left front is always overheated here. Aim toward the ‘GS’ of ‘Willow Springs’ on the building sign.
T4: many lines through here - it depends on how the car rotates and the tires - don't have many notes for it...
T5: My car felt best trailing braking a bit on turn-in and taking a very tight line here as the pavement has more grip on the inside.
T6: The Evo is wonderful going over the hill because you just nail and as long as you don't turn in too early the car will get light but not too squirrely due to 4wd.
T7: not really a corner
T8: stay about 2/3 up and dive down to about 2m away from the inside - it gets too bumpy right at the inside. There's a little chunk missing from the pavement you can use as an apex marker. Let the car track out toward the edge - there's a tower to aim for the whole way through but I forget what it says. Again, don't necessary try to setup for 9 parallel to the outside edge, rather concentrate on braking in a straight line to keep the car stable.
T9: Scary, especially because the left front is slippery from the long and fast T8. You have the set the car up right at the edge of the track but it's a significant drop onto the dirt and the track is flat out there because negative camber disappears about 1.5 car width from the outer edge. Here again there's a little dip at the apex (don't drop a wheel tho - big hole on the inside) for reference. You'll know when you get 9 - it will fire you out onto the straight and almost into the pit lane.

vtluu
07-06-2005, 06:38 PM
Thanks, that's exactly what I needed to know for this weekend! :bow:

vtluu
07-11-2005, 06:49 PM
Had a pretty good day at Willow Springs yesterday. It was my first time running with NASA and I signed up for the HPDE 2 group, but in hindsight with 8 track days under my belt I should have gone straight to HPDE 3. The problem was that HPDE 1 & 2 run together, and while I needed an instructor to show me the right line to drive (once), lining up in the "instructor" line in pre-grid meant getting out on track after a whole bunch of slower cars and drivers and playing "newbie slalom" for most of the session. I took to pre-gridding my car super-early so I could be 1st out on track and get some open track to myself. Even when I did, about halfway through the session I ended up catching up the last people to get on the track; I passed a couple of them, pulled in to the hot pits and signalled for "more space", was waved back on after a few moments, only to catch up to traffic again after half a lap. People were fairly good about pointing me by (and one nice thing about NASA is that point-bys are optional, and people who took too long, I just blew by) but with only two passing zones in the front straight and 5-8 complex it meant trailing slower drivers a lot.

Anyway I elected to drive solo and do my best to figure things out, and didn't get an instructor to ride along until my last session, whereupon he showed me a bunch of things I was doing wrong:

T1: I braked deep and apexed at the end of the dots as redevolution suggested, where I should have braked a bit less and a bit earlier, apexed at the beginning of the dots, and used the full width for track-out.

T2: I used the classic line and apexed very late, little reflective marker by the flagger's station; my instructor had me take a tighter line and apex about 15' earlier.

T4: had real trouble finding a good line through this; apparently the way to go is to apex early going up the hill, drive uphill almost to the edge of the track, healthy braking and hard right turn for the downhill stretch.

T5: I took the classic "RWD" line through this--start out wide and apex going over the hill. AWD line is to turn in a bit earlier and almost hug the length of the apex berm. People seemed to be afraid of this turn, as I tended to put a lot of distance between myself and the faster drivers here.

T8: I eventually worked myself up to entering this turn at around 110 mph--no brake, just a slight lift. It felt like I had plenty of grip left and could have stayed flat out from 5 all the way through 8, if I didn't run out of courage first. Had a bit of trouble finiding a good visual reference for the apex and the line I took was to start 2/3 out and track in slowly towards the apex. My instructor had me dive in a bit earlier and stay most of the way inside.

T9: lots of trouble with this one, the problem being the lack of visual references for braking and turn-in. Apparently what I should have done was brake, follow the outer edge of the track for a bit before turning in for a smooth curve towards the apex. Didn't have any trouble hitting the apex or tracking all the way out and using a bit of the pit entrance, but early on it always felt like I was turning in early. I decided to try waiting longer to brake and turn in and ended up finding myself pointing almost straight at the edge of the track with nowhere near enough room to brake...

... I drove straight off, gradually came to a stop and brought the car around, signalled to the corner worker I was okay, and waited for him to wave me back on to the track, since with the race harness I couldn't really see oncoming traffic over my right shoulder. The flagger kinda just stood there and stared, and after a while I decided he wasn't going to do anything useful for me so I loosened the shoulder harnesses a bit so I could see, then pulled back on to the track gingerly watching to see if the flagger would frantically signal me to stop; he didn't and I got back on the track and very quickly into the hot pits for a little "chat" at the black-flag station.

A few comments about NASA: the event was very well-organized and ran like clockwork; they sure know how to cram as many run groups into one day as possible (basically I'd get out on to the track as the last cars from the previous group were on their cool-down lap). My run group was a bit more crowded than I'm used to; if I'd been in a group with faster cars and drivers traffic would have been less of an issue. Safety was reasonable, I didn't feel that anything was unsafe at any given point. They definitely like to do things "racing style", for example when someone broke down on course they sent out the tow truck while keeping the course hot--with the appropriate flags out of course. Total track time was 95 minutes: 4 20-minute sessions and 1 "bonus" 15-minute session before lunch.

All in all not a bad day, considering I got in for free. I think ordinarily registration would have run around $150. That being said I'm inclined to pay a bit more and run with a group like NCRC which tends to err more on teh side of caution, has fewer and less crowded run groups and better one-on-one instruction and coaching.

Richard EVO
07-12-2005, 02:51 PM
I am a SoCal EVO owner and I have driven the big track at Willow Springs Int'l Raceway many times. It is a very fast track but not very "technical." That means it has lots of fast straights and sweepers, but not a lot of low speed turns like say, Streets of Willow.

It is a track that is well-suited to the EVO. You will find that you can beat almost anything short of a Z06, Viper or 911 Turbo, and, depending on driver skill, may even catch those cars. There is an "EVO Line" that is different from the lines that other drivers or instructors will teach you. In particular, you hug the inside of the Turn 2 sweeper all the way around, and then stay all the way to the right approaching Turn 3. Everyone else takes the sweeper about in the middle, hits the right side apex at the end of Turn 2, and then goes wide between 2 and 3 before coming back to the right side for the turn-in to Turn 3. This is a place where EVOs pull away from everyone. The EVO line all the way through 2 and up to the entrance of 3 covers way less ground than the traditional line, so the slightly slower speed in 2 due to the tight turn is more than made up for by the shorter distance traveled.

The other place that the EVO Line is different is Turn 5. The EVO line, as you approach Turn 5 is to brake early, scrub off a lot of speed, downshift from 4th to 3rd, and then TURN INTO 5 EARLY!!!. You want to hug the painted berm all the way around the left side of Turn 5, hammering the throttle as you go, then as you exit Turn 5 and head for Turn 6, shift into 4th, go full throttle, and you will lose everyone. The key is to give up the entrance to 5 in order to carry lots of acceleration through and out of 5. The traditional line through 5 calls for a later turn-in, but actually sacrifices exit speed -- avoid it.

Try it. It works. 8)

SpeedVentures has a weekend at Big Willow on Aug. 13 & 14. I think it's only $220 for BOTH DAYS. Go to www.speedventures.net to sign up.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v79/richard350z/BigWillowMapwebsize.gif

hagakure
07-12-2005, 03:00 PM
Had a pretty good day at Willow Springs yesterday. It was my first time running with NASA and I signed up for the HPDE 2 group, but in hindsight with 8 track days under my belt I should have gone straight to HPDE 3. The problem was that HPDE 1 & 2 run together, and while I needed an instructor to show me the right line to drive (once), lining up in the "instructor" line in pre-grid meant getting out on track after a whole bunch of slower cars and drivers and playing "newbie slalom" for most of the session. I took to pre-gridding my car super-early so I could be 1st out on track and get some open track to myself. Even when I did, about halfway through the session I ended up catching up the last people to get on the track; I passed a couple of them, pulled in to the hot pits and signalled for "more space", was waved back on after a few moments, only to catch up to traffic again after half a lap. People were fairly good about pointing me by (and one nice thing about NASA is that point-bys are optional, and people who took too long, I just blew by) but with only two passing zones in the front straight and 5-8 complex it meant trailing slower drivers a lot.

Anyway I elected to drive solo and do my best to figure things out, and didn't get an instructor to ride along until my last session, whereupon he showed me a bunch of things I was doing wrong:

T1: I braked deep and apexed at the end of the dots as redevolution suggested, where I should have braked a bit less and a bit earlier, apexed at the beginning of the dots, and used the full width for track-out.

T2: I used the classic line and apexed very late, little reflective marker by the flagger's station; my instructor had me take a tighter line and apex about 15' earlier.

T4: had real trouble finding a good line through this; apparently the way to go is to apex early going up the hill, drive uphill almost to the edge of the track, healthy braking and hard right turn for the downhill stretch.

T5: I took the classic "RWD" line through this--start out wide and apex going over the hill. AWD line is to turn in a bit earlier and almost hug the length of the apex berm. People seemed to be afraid of this turn, as I tended to put a lot of distance between myself and the faster drivers here.

T8: I eventually worked myself up to entering this turn at around 110 mph--no brake, just a slight lift. It felt like I had plenty of grip left and could have stayed flat out from 5 all the way through 8, if I didn't run out of courage first. Had a bit of trouble finiding a good visual reference for the apex and the line I took was to start 2/3 out and track in slowly towards the apex. My instructor had me dive in a bit earlier and stay most of the way inside.

T9: lots of trouble with this one, the problem being the lack of visual references for braking and turn-in. Apparently what I should have done was brake, follow the outer edge of the track for a bit before turning in for a smooth curve towards the apex. Didn't have any trouble hitting the apex or tracking all the way out and using a bit of the pit entrance, but early on it always felt like I was turning in early. I decided to try waiting longer to brake and turn in and ended up finding myself pointing almost straight at the edge of the track with nowhere near enough room to brake...

... I drove straight off, gradually came to a stop and brought the car around, signalled to the corner worker I was okay, and waited for him to wave me back on to the track, since with the race harness I couldn't really see oncoming traffic over my right shoulder. The flagger kinda just stood there and stared, and after a while I decided he wasn't going to do anything useful for me so I loosened the shoulder harnesses a bit so I could see, then pulled back on to the track gingerly watching to see if the flagger would frantically signal me to stop; he didn't and I got back on the track and very quickly into the hot pits for a little "chat" at the black-flag station.

A few comments about NASA: the event was very well-organized and ran like clockwork; they sure know how to cram as many run groups into one day as possible (basically I'd get out on to the track as the last cars from the previous group were on their cool-down lap). My run group was a bit more crowded than I'm used to; if I'd been in a group with faster cars and drivers traffic would have been less of an issue. Safety was reasonable, I didn't feel that anything was unsafe at any given point. They definitely like to do things "racing style", for example when someone broke down on course they sent out the tow truck while keeping the course hot--with the appropriate flags out of course. Total track time was 95 minutes: 4 20-minute sessions and 1 "bonus" 15-minute session before lunch.

All in all not a bad day, considering I got in for free. I think ordinarily registration would have run around $150. That being said I'm inclined to pay a bit more and run with a group like NCRC which tends to err more on teh side of caution, has fewer and less crowded run groups and better one-on-one instruction and coaching.


Hey Tam,

you should sign up for the lotus club event the 27th of this month at t-hill (backwards) and come out and play with us....sounds like a good time at Big Willow.


Percy

vtluu
07-12-2005, 03:19 PM
Unfortunately my racing budget is completely blown at the moment (3 track days in 2 weekends and new wheels + tires for two race cars may have had something to do with it... and all that 100-octane fuel too 8)); next track day I'm thinking about is August 19 with Unlimited Laps (anybody here run with them before?).

smack
07-12-2005, 05:16 PM
next track day I'm thinking about is August 19 with Unlimited Laps (anybody here run with them before?).

i have last year. i don't really remember much about it so it must have been fine and uneventful. :D

hagakure
07-12-2005, 05:27 PM
Unfortunately my racing budget is completely blown at the moment (3 track days in 2 weekends and new wheels + tires for two race cars may have had something to do with it... and all that 100-octane fuel too 8)); next track day I'm thinking about is August 19 with Unlimited Laps (anybody here run with them before?).


Hey Man,

I feel you....I'm a bit tapped for play $$ at this time as well. I think I may join you at the unlimited laps event though. My other choice was NASA on the 18th...might want to think about that, as it is a max track time session, no race groups, just groups 2, 3, 4. I would sign up for HPDE 3. Let me know which you prefer, and we'll hook up.


Percy

vtluu
07-12-2005, 06:11 PM
I feel you....I'm a bit tapped for play $$ at this time as well. I think I may join you at the unlimited laps event though. My other choice was NASA on the 18th...might want to think about that, as it is a max track time session, no race groups, just groups 2, 3, 4. I would sign up for HPDE 3. Let me know which you prefer, and we'll hook up.
Thanks for letting me know about this, with just HPDE 2-4 and on a Thursday there should be lots of room out there. If I don't have a schedule conflict (should know shortly) I think I'll sign up for this.

hagakure
07-12-2005, 07:41 PM
I feel you....I'm a bit tapped for play $$ at this time as well. I think I may join you at the unlimited laps event though. My other choice was NASA on the 18th...might want to think about that, as it is a max track time session, no race groups, just groups 2, 3, 4. I would sign up for HPDE 3. Let me know which you prefer, and we'll hook up.
Thanks for letting me know about this, with just HPDE 2-4 and on a Thursday there should be lots of room out there. If I don't have a schedule conflict (should know shortly) I think I'll sign up for this.

Let me know and I'll hit this as well. Also cheaper.


Percy

smack
07-12-2005, 07:45 PM
hey percy,
what's the passing rules between groups 3 and 4?
what kind of cars do you see in each group?

dohcvtec
07-12-2005, 07:57 PM
hey percy,
what's the passing rules between groups 3 and 4?
what kind of cars do you see in each group?
I'm not Percy, but I can answer.
Group 3: Start of the day passing in straights only, point by's are not needed in NASA. Passing progresses throughout the day, last session is usually open track. You see everything from Sentra rentals to Z06's and 996TT's

Group 4: Open track all day long. This is where many of the race cars practice. Also, this is where people do their NASA license testing.

I've been driving with Group 3 for the past 2 years and only now feel that it is time for me to move to Group 4.

vtluu
07-15-2005, 12:58 AM
Let me know and I'll hit this as well. Also cheaper.
A'ight, solved my NASA website login issues and I'm signed up for the August 18 event! :thumbsup:

hagakure
07-15-2005, 08:36 AM
Let me know and I'll hit this as well. Also cheaper.
A'ight, solved my NASA website login issues and I'm signed up for the August 18 event! :thumbsup:


Hey Tam,

I'll see you there on the 18th.

Percy