Differences between ECU reflashes

[JanSolo]

DavidV of Works fame (now a lone gunman) posted an interesting piece over at EvoM and I wanted to share it with you guys - just in case you never frequent that site.

Here is the link on EvoM, just in case you want to read the exact same info, but on a different site: http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66708

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People need to take the time to understand what it is they are buying, and how it works. Is the $199 product the same as the $599 product because they both use flash technology? Are they the same if they hit similar peak HP numbers? As Shiv correctly pointed out in another thread, take the same car and put each of the three products on it and you will get dramatic enough results that you could tell instantly that the tune is not the same. This is true even if the peak HP numbers are very close.

For example, none of the current flash tuners go about controlling boost the same way. One uses a delay, one removes a pill, and one provides a new tube. They are each necessary to that tuner's approach in an effort to raise and maintain boost, but they each go about achieving that objective very differently.

Dynoflash sends a false 10 minute delay signal to the ECU.

XFlash pulls a restrictor pill from the factory line.

WORKS P2 replaces the factory boost tube with a new boost tube (note, the number of pills remains the same) and the functionality is like stock.

A programmed delay tells the ECU that the built-in grace period for spiking is now extended. Normally, the ECU allows a momentary spike and then regains control over boost and bleeds it off. The 10 minute delay isn't a method of controlling boost, it is a big, long and uncontrolled spike.

Removing a pill does not allow the ECU to control boost. It still bleeds and tapers, even though it peaks higher. When WORKS tried this exact approach, even with the solenoid set at 100% duty cycle, the boost continued to drop off and would not hold steady past 6,000 rpm. This is important, because the factory rev limit is another 1,100 rpm away and the WORKS raised rev limit provides another 500 rpm of useable revs on top of that for a total of 1,600 rpm higher power band. That's an additional 1,600 rpm of sustained, stable boost that the WORKS car is able to achieve.

The WORKS method allows a momentary spike to 19 psi or higher, just like factory approach, but once the boost hits 19 psi, it holds steady until the driver lifts off the throttle. This is because the ECU has regained control over boost after the momentary spike (the built-in grace period) and can hold it to whatever pressure WORKS chooses to set it at (at the moment, only a 19 psi version exists, although theoretically this could be set anywhere).

The method by which boost is manipulated is just one feature that sets each of these products apart. When you begin to look beneath the surface at how each of the tuners goes about setting the air/fuel ratio, ignition timing and rev limit, the products again differ greatly.

The choice of which ECU tune to buy is nowhere near as simple as choosing a ground wire kit or intake filter (products that tend to be more similar in how they work and the results they provide than they are different -- regardless of the brand name they carry) and the consequences in both the short and long term when it comes to ECU tuning are much more significant. Those that are choosing ECU reflashes based on price under the assumption that the existing flashes are all more or less the same have very little understanding of what it is that their $200-600 is buying.

Take the time to become an informed consumer. Tuning your $30k+ Evo's ECU is a big deal. Choose the tuner of your preference, but understand ahead of time how it is that they differ.

[BluEvo]

thats some damn good info! for realz!

[chris]

:computer: nice write up that was beautiful *clap clap*

[DavidV]

More DavidV rants:

The "Jiffy Tune":

This is directed at no one in particular, but addresses the second most common criteria for choosing one flash provider over another (the first being the misguided "they are all the same except for price" beleif adressed above). Here, the sales pitch is that a "custom tune" that is "tailored" to your car is inherently better and/or worth more than a "mail order" or "off-the-shelf" flash.

I agree. A custom tune is better and worth more. I have it on me own car... but it cost me over $1,800.00 in dyno time and took over a week to achieve. Do you really think 1, 2 or 3 runs on the dyno or rips up and down the street with a datalogger is even remotely close to a "custom tune"?

It should be apparent that I am not a believer in the "Jiffy Tune." There is nothing a couple of runs on the dyno or street will show a tuner that will trigger a light bulb and allow him/her to customize with any repeatability in mind.

WORKS does not offer this service to the general public, and it is frankly not needed/beneficial. For street-level enthusiasts, this is more of a marketing gimmick, IMO, than a way of adding value.

When WORKS custom tunes for race drivers, they spend weeks doing it -- and it costs a small fortune to do. If a tuner promises you an "optimized" map based on what he/she sees in a relative split second glimpse into your car's existence, be highly skeptical.

What is far more important than a Jiffy Tune are the fundamentals behind how that tuner approaches the Evo in the first place.

It’s like buying a mass-produced CD by a critically acclaimed composer, or having a street performer make up a special song “just for you” :lol:

-- DavidV :D

[SouthernCrane]

More DavidV rants:

The "Jiffy Tune":

Do you really think 1, 2 or 3 runs on the dyno or rips up and down the street with a datalogger is even remotely close to a "custom tune"?



If there is a base map for the tune, I think it is easier to fine tune the map for each individual car. Maybe I'm way off here.

When I got my car "Jiffy Tune[d]" the company that did it (see side bar) had at least 30 pulls on the dyno. Is that not enough for a tune using an already good starting point?

[DavidV]

More DavidV rants:

The "Jiffy Tune":

Do you really think 1, 2 or 3 runs on the dyno or rips up and down the street with a datalogger is even remotely close to a "custom tune"?



If there is a base map for the tune, I think it is easier to fine tune the map for each individual car. Maybe I'm way off here.

When I got my car "Jiffy Tune[d]" the company that did it (see side bar) had at least 30 pulls on the dyno. Is that not enough for a tune using an already good starting point?

30 is about 10 times more dyno time than the guys that are only getting 3 pulls on the dyno at a typical dyno day. So it is not as "Jiffy" as some. Even so, it is about 10 times less development time (both dyno and road tuning included) than a tuner who is going to spread the development time out over an entire week of constant road and dyno testing (not that most anyone but the elite among elite race crowd need that kind of fine tuning).

Bottom line, I'm sure you got a good tune. No question. But just because someone does a couple rips on the dyno before hitting the "enter" button to upload a map doesn't assure a better tune than an "off-the-shelf" map that has a lot more development time on the front end.

-- DavidV :D

[SouthernCrane]

More DavidV rants:

The "Jiffy Tune":

Do you really think 1, 2 or 3 runs on the dyno or rips up and down the street with a datalogger is even remotely close to a "custom tune"?



If there is a base map for the tune, I think it is easier to fine tune the map for each individual car. Maybe I'm way off here.

When I got my car "Jiffy Tune[d]" the company that did it (see side bar) had at least 30 pulls on the dyno. Is that not enough for a tune using an already good starting point?

30 is about 10 times more dyno time than the guys that are only getting 3 pulls on the dyno at a typical dyno day. So it is not as "Jiffy" as some. Even so, it is about 10 times less development time (both dyno and road tuning included) than a tuner who is going to spread the development time out over an entire week of constant road and dyno testing (not that most anyone but the elite among elite race crowd need that kind of fine tuning).

Bottom line, I'm sure you got a good tune. No question. But just because someone does a couple rips on the dyno before hitting the "enter" button to upload a map doesn't assure a better tune than an "off-the-shelf" map that has a lot more development time on the front end.
-- DavidV :D

What I was trying to say was that the map that was originally loaded into my car did have a lot of development time (dyno and road), as it was an "off the shelf" map. Then it was finely tuned with 30 dyno pulls.

Does there need to be that much more development to fine tune it from the "off the shelf map" to better match my car?

[Shiv@Vishnu]

More DavidV rants:

The "Jiffy Tune":

Do you really think 1, 2 or 3 runs on the dyno or rips up and down the street with a datalogger is even remotely close to a "custom tune"?



If there is a base map for the tune, I think it is easier to fine tune the map for each individual car. Maybe I'm way off here.

When I got my car "Jiffy Tune[d]" the company that did it (see side bar) had at least 30 pulls on the dyno. Is that not enough for a tune using an already good starting point?

30 is about 10 times more dyno time than the guys that are only getting 3 pulls on the dyno at a typical dyno day. So it is not as "Jiffy" as some. Even so, it is about 10 times less development time (both dyno and road tuning included) than a tuner who is going to spread the development time out over an entire week of constant road and dyno testing (not that most anyone but the elite among elite race crowd need that kind of fine tuning).
-- DavidV :D

:thumbsup:

Regards,
Shiv

[robi]

If vishnu can't source a replacement NOmuri oil temp gauge in 4 months. WHY would ANYONE let you touch their car with the potential for damaging it? (just think if this had happend after someone bought an Xede). Heard you had fun "selling" your Xflash at the NORCALEVO meet...sorry I wasn't there to see ZERO sales (IN YOUR TUNING BACKYARD). Do these EVO owners know something the rest of us don't because of their closed proximity to the vishnu malignancy?

[SouthernCrane]

WHY would ANYONE let you touch their car with the potential for damaging it?

I did, but I did get a 40WHP gain. :D

[robi]

And paid 2 to 3 times the going rate for them too...I never said they couldn't make power or tune the car...just if they can't do simple customer support for an off the shelf gauge issue...what's going to happen when something complicated comes along? And the excuse of the stuff is in customs just doesn't fly after 2+ months NOmuri USA just shuts down? Vishnu hasn't sold one of these gauges (or setups on their website) since last Nov when this issue with me started? That's even more uncomfortable to me someone who would continue to support a product when they know the distrib is incompedent...? a word of advice watch what the do before you listen to what they say...like this pm chain between me and shiv?

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Re: omuri

If I would have broken them I wouldn't have even called you. I've always taken individual responsibility for my actions if I break something too bad for me throw it in the trash can and next time buy something of better quality. Someone else installed them and he has had a very good business in our area for a long time (the dealers up here take their "unsolvable" problems to him and he keeps my Alfa spider running fine...almost a career in itself ;-/ ) Something I'm sure your not aware of... my first call to your business, after the purchase and install, was to ask a question about the dimmer issue (and the EGT had quit working). I had no intention of getting new gauges out of you. (well maybe the EGT but I was going to let you offer a solution not demand anything). The guy I talked to told me he needed to talk to omuri tech and get back to me (time line early October) I called once and left a message at two weeks... zero response... waited about ten days (it's been long enough the details are getting fuzzy) called got Bret he shipped me a boost gauge the next day.... let me be clear here... I told him at the time that I was sorry the deal had gone wrong, said I would in the future choose not to be a customer of vishnu because of the (I know subjective) percieved quality/Value issues, cancelled my xede order and didn't ask or demand anything..... he INSISTED and I told him no thank you 2 or 3 times I just wanted to be quit with any other business dealings with vishnu. I didn't and haven't posted anything degrading the gauges.... you know On EvoM General/engine/etc. "!!Warning anyone thinking about buying omuri gauges!!" But finally he tells me he's going to send it anyway so I take the new gauge boost gauge when it arrives and send my old one back (with my Oil Temp gauge I thought he also said he was going to send). Note here: I was pissed that no one had seen fit to respond to my valid questions (still no request/demand for any new product) and Bret did ask how I liked the gauges before I called them "cheesy" (he prob thought I was going to praise them). Enough. I still don't have a response to my question on the dimmer issue. It's been over three months since I purchased the gauges and I still don't have working gauges or have been advised on how to correct the dimmer issue. (how is this being relentless? I feel more hopeless on/about this issue.) Tell you what... I think my wife has a conference in Pebble Beach next week should we cancel her flight and I'll drive with her in the EVO 7 hours and let you guys finish installing the stuff correctly? Or will the gauges still be in customs? ;-)

If you you honestly feel that I broke the gauges and that I am tring to cheat you... please send me my old boost and oil temp gauge back, I will send you the new boost gauge Bret sent me as soon as I get them. I will be glad to either throw them away or put them back in my car as the mood strikes me.

You really don't know how sorry I am that this is still going on or that it ever started in the first place.




quote:

shiv@vishnu wrote on Jan 5, 2004 10:08 PM:
Robi-- you broke the guages. We have agreed to replace them despite this being the fact. You have been relentlessly unreasonable and hostile with your comments and insinuations.



quote:

robi wrote on Jan 6, 2004 04:48 AM:
What is in my post that is untrue? Perhaps the word ?gauges? will remind you... Boost gauge = cracked bevel glass/ Oil temp = out of square bevel face and loose bevel glass EGT = worked 1 hour @ first startup never worked again.... to me that's three out of three or 100% failure rate. This is the only purchase I've made for my car that I'm truly sorry I made. Also I feel that you may be a great person and you may work magic with these cars.... I was looking forward to see if someone would call I?ve been told that you are a man of his word (Kent did and gave me an update and I posted this to your credit) and I was happy that you, when notified of a problem were very responsive. Sadly my latest experience with you (your last post was in such poor taste and completely uncalled for)....is very disappointing. I just stated the facts and didn't even bash the specific product line you have worked hard to promote. I stayed general and non-combative.... (and then you call me a liar?? on a public forum? without getting your facts straight first? no time to PM me to check my side? is this kind of detail you use when you tune a car?) but everything I said was the complete truth... and yes I'm also sorry that it's the truth. Just like you called me out when I blindsided you at Christmas I feel something is owed here... and I'm not talking about the parts ;-) . But you decide.

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NOTE Shiv has not sent me my broken gauge (which reads oil temp gust fine just the bezel glass is loose) back per my invite. In truth he and his have sent me nothing and so after a running 5 month exchange I have come to the fact that they are either UNABLE to or DON'T CARE to serve people who have sent them their money.. DISCLAIMER this is My experiance with vishnu your mileage may very

cheers

[Shiv@Vishnu]

:yuckfu:

[robi]

Shiv per your pm nothings wrong with me. Just tired of the inaction, ineptitude, lack of updates and general poor respect in the way vishnu has decided to treat me a paying customer. The other NOmuri gauges are going in the garage sale box. If and when you and yours ever gets around to sending either my origonaly purchased but broken gauges, (means your accusation on EvoM that I'm a liar... I think it went "nor are you truthful" is in your opinion correct) or the new oil temp means you do owe me an apoligy for publicly accussing me of lying (see above quote). I no longer care and am going to a gauge system from a vendor that can at least make an attempt at customer service when something goes wrong.

[Shiv@Vishnu]

I no longer care and am going to a gauge system from a vendor.

:yuckfu:

[robi]

I went to the tuning "GOD" vishnu it sure didn't help me

[JanSolo]

Obviously this is not going anywhere. I think you two should take a time out and I politely and respectfully request that you relegate this kind of discussion to PMs. We don't want this place to get out of hand.