Evo vs. SC'd S2000 curiosities

[Nobodyx]

Hey guys,
I've been tracking a SC'd S2000 for a couple years (about 4 HPDEs a year) and recently bought an Evo as my street car. Of course, I couldn't resist and the mods have already begun (Robi-spec suspension, SS lines, shift bushing kit, rear brace, some minor weight reduction). I've tracked the Evo once (BW #13, before any mods) and pulled some decent times, but am still a ways away from the my times in the Honda. Though it has some deficiencies, the Evo is an awesome car out of the box and has got me wondering if i can be made even faster than my S with just a few bolt-ons. I've got a few questions that will help me determine what direction I should go with the Evo:

1: What are the fastest Evos pulling at BW (14, 1 or 13) or TH?

2: How reliable is the car with, say, a Vishnu v390 tune? I know a few guys have blown Evos at the track (including Shiv), but I'm not sure how extreme their tuning was.

3: How the hell do you get rid of the understeer? I was doing pendulum turns at BW to compensate, but would rather just get rid of the push than drift my way through the cotton corners.

4: Brake ducting solutions? (I have a 100mph poltergeist of a cone emblazoned on my bumper due to brake failure and would not like to see what kind of image cement would make at that speed.)

Thanks

[leif]

i have like 6 days on my v390 package, and my friends all have about the same and they run flawlessly before, during and after the track day.

also shiv has never 'blown a car up' at the track.

[Evo442]

Understeer: What Robispec package do you have? What are your alignment settings? You just might need to have your suspension tuned a bit. I have Robi's "budget" package and the handling of my evo is quite neutral now. The car goes where I want now and rear end rotates easily. I'm surprised that understeer is a problem if he set up your suspension. He tends to like his cars a little on the loose side. Improvements in the budget setup include 25mm rear swaybar with polyurethane bushings, bump steer correction kit, espelir gt lowering sprngs, more negative camber of front wheels. A little less pressure in the front tires or a litle more pressure in the rear tires may help you as well

Technique wise for the understeer, here are some thoughts: trail braking, (increases contact patch on front wheels while you are initiating your turn), lifting (a little) mid corner (transfers weight from rear to front tires, increasing grip on front and helps the rear rotate around), unwinding the wheel then turning again (allows the front tires to get more traction and then turn better)...

There are certainly more experienced drivers than I on here, I'm sure others will have other thoughts for you.

As far as your brakes go, what rotors and pads are you running? If you have not upgraded there, thats where I would start. Besides the rallyart air deflector things, the only brake duct kit that I know of for the evo is from somewhere in Great Britain and its very pricey. Talk to Robi about ducting. He was playing around with this at one point.

good luck!

-david

[MitsuMan]

make your own ducting its not that hard too do

[Nobodyx]

Mitsuman: Ducting (proper) isn't easy. If you've cracked the code, I'll buy the first kit you produce (note: I'm expecting something more than 2.5" vacuum cleaner hose attached to the bottom tray with zip ties).

Evo442: As for Robi's setup--I'm running the springs/bushings and rear sway set on max stiffness. I went with a less aggressive setup because my Evo still needs to be my commute car and I didn't want to chew up tires every 2500 miles. I'm thinking I may just want that, though. I played with tire pressures and, experimented with all the techniques you listed (most of which were successful). I was coaxing the tail out in the Esses, the sweeper, the entrance to Riverside and the cotton corners. It took a severe toll on my tires and my lap times, but it was faster (and way more fun) than the alternative.

As for the brakes--I ran stock pads and rotors. I knew the pads would suck, but I wanted to evaluate the car out of the box as it came from the factory. Still managed a 2:11 (BW 13), but the brakes were hurtin bad (rotor temps exceeded my digital gauge until they dipped under 600 deg. after 10 min. or so). You'd think that you wouldn't need to upgrade a car that came with Brembos, but I just might have to. I'll start with pads, ducting and some new rotors that aren't warped.

Leif: How many hours of the 25 hrs at Thill did the Vishnu Evo complete?

[earlyapex]

Leif: How many hours of the 25 hrs at Thill did the Vishnu Evo complete?

That wasn't because it blew the motor, because it didn't.

[leif]

Leif: How many hours of the 25 hrs at Thill did the Vishnu Evo complete?

That wasn't because it blew the motor, because it didn't.

yeah no motors were blown....

[earlyapex]

I went with a less aggressive setup because my Evo still needs to be my commute car and I didn't want to chew up tires every 2500 miles.

What's a less aggressive setup to you?

I am running -2.7 camber front and -1.2 rear with zero toe all around. Been fine on the street. I am currently running Toyo RA1's as well on the street and track, daily driver, have almost 3k on the set so far and they have been fine. My street tires before this didn't have a problem either. Sure, they wear a little more on the inside, but not too bad. Just be better about tire rotations, etc.

I take it your where running the stock Yoks? What where your tire pressures at BW? I didn't have a huge problem with understeer when I had stock suspension, except for a an alignment (-2.0 front camber) and a whiteline rear swaybar. I haven't done BW with my new setup yet though.

Brakes: The stock pads are crap. Upgrade your pads and possibly rotors and you should notice quite a difference. I am running Performance Friction pads, and Performance Friction 2-piece rotors and haven't had a problem yet with them.

Understeer: Remember you are coming from a S2000 so your driving technique is for that car. You are getting into a heavier AWD car that will feel more like a FWD car to you since you are used to RWD. Do a couple more events to get used to how the dynamics are different. You can't drive it like you do the S2000.

[MarkSAE]

Improvements in the budget setup include 25mm rear swaybar with polyurethane bushings, bump steer correction kit, espelir gt lowering sprngs, more negative camber of front wheels. A little less pressure in the front tires or a litle more pressure in the rear tires may help you as well


What parts do you add to correct bump steer?

[Evo442]

Improvements in the budget setup include 25mm rear swaybar with polyurethane bushings, bump steer correction kit, espelir gt lowering sprngs, more negative camber of front wheels. A little less pressure in the front tires or a litle more pressure in the rear tires may help you as well


What parts do you add to correct bump steer?

I have the Whiteline rear anti bump steer correction kit. I think that Whiteline is out of Australia or something. Robi seeems to think its an important part of his setup. Honestly I cant tell you what parts are involved or how it works exacty. Earlyapex explained it to me once, but i forgot. sorry.

[Nobodyx]

[quote="Nobodyx"] I went with a less aggressive setup because my Evo still needs to be my commute car and I didn't want to chew up tires every 2500 miles.

What's a less aggressive setup to you?
I don't even know what Robi set everything at....I've got to PM him to find out. It was 3:45 am when we finished and I was thinking more about the 8 hr. drive ahead of me than what the camber was set at. I basically just told him to keep it mild as I didn't want to chew through tires. Running stock yokes....will go with RA1s soon.

Tire pressures were set so they'd be 42 hot all the way around.

Brakes: The stock pads are crap. Upgrade your pads and possibly rotors and you should notice quite a difference. I am running Performance Friction pads, and Performance Friction 2-piece rotors and haven't had a problem yet with them.

Excellent...I was thinking of going with a PF setup but hadn't heard anything about 'em.

[earlyapex]

Tire pressures were set so they'd be 42 hot all the way around.


that's a bit much. Try around 38 hot front, 40 hot rear. Then see how that feels to you. If it still feels weird, go down to 36 hot front, 38 hot rear. That will give you more grip. You are probably giving up alot of grip with 42 hot.

I run my RA1's at approx 35 hot front, 36/37 hot rear, and I will probably try it even lower next event.

[Nobodyx]

Wow...those are a lot lower than I'm used to running. I'll give it a shot, though. What kind of times at BW / TH are you pulling?

[earlyapex]

Wow...those are a lot lower than I'm used to running. I'll give it a shot, though. What kind of times at BW / TH are you pulling?

2:11 at thill, 108 degree day. :shock: I am still dialing in the car with all the new stuff on it. Aiming to dip into the sub 2:10's next event. We'll see.

With the tire pressues, just try them out, it's the easiest thing to change so you won't waste much time.

When I had stock suspension and tires but rear sway, the car would understeer a lot with any pressures over 40 hot.

[hagakure]

Wow...those are a lot lower than I'm used to running. I'll give it a shot, though. What kind of times at BW / TH are you pulling?


By the way, at t-hill on 9/13, two of us ran 2:08 and 2:09 with pretty much the same set-up you have (robispec), but with RA-1's.

Percy

[earlyapex]

2:11 at thill, 108 degree day. :shock: I am still dialing in the car with all the new stuff on it. Aiming to dip into the sub 2:10's next event. We'll see.

Make that a 2:05.66 now, with bypass. 8)

[Nobodyx]

Pulled a 2:04:95 with the Cyclone in my S2000 while running with Trackmasters at Thill yesterday. I have a sinking feeling it's going to take a lot more work than I thought to get the Evo down to sub 5s.

[earlyapex]

nice time, what do you have done to the S2000 other than SC'd?

[Cameron@xperformance]

Pulled a 2:04:95 with the Cyclone in my S2000 while running with Trackmasters at Thill yesterday. I have a sinking feeling it's going to take a lot more work than I thought to get the Evo down to sub 5s.
nice

[Nobodyx]

Tein RAs, exhaust/headers, Schroth/Recaro/rollbar, Volks w/RAs, Saner front bar, Wilwood front brakes (ducted), APR wing. AND the car's been stripped of most of the useless stuff like airbags. It's lightness is what helps it the most. I only ran one session without a passenger, though, which kind of offset almost all of the weight savings.

Every time I get in the Evo, though, I can't help but think that it should be easy to get the Mitsu to the level of the Honda without too much work (it's a way better car than a stock S2000), but I'd hate to drop a not-so-small amount of coin on the Evo only to find out that I'm slower in it.....

[Richard EVO]

Kent Jordan runs 1:59 at T-hill. But he dropped more than a little coin into his Muellerized EVO. :lol:

[earlyapex]

but I'd hate to drop a not-so-small amount of coin on the Evo only to find out that I'm slower in it.....

Well, maybe it's because you are used to your S2000, which has totally different dynamics on track than a heavier AWD sedan.

Get some more seat time with the evo on track and maybe it will help.

Also R-compounds make a huge difference on the EVO, which is kinda under-tire'd for it's weight stock.

[Nobodyx]

1:59s!

As for tires--I was fortunate enough to have a friend who traded her Evo in and I swapped my 1-track-day'd Yokos + pristine rims for RAs mounted on her curb-rashed rims. The RAs are pretty fresh (maybe 1000 miles on 'em) and I'm going down to BW next week. I'd take the Evo, but I fear that the tires haven't been worn down enough and they'll blister. I've never run non-shaved RAs.....should I be concerned?

[earlyapex]

They won't blister, they will just feel spongy and flexy until you wear them down.

What size RA1s?

[Nobodyx]

235s.

I've got 255s (shaved) wrapped around 17x9.5s sitting in my living room. Unfortunately I need to roll the fenders more than I can roll 'em w/a bat if I want to get 'em to fit. Should have a fender roller on Mon. or Tues.

[earlyapex]

You shouldn't have to roll the fenders for 255 RA1's. I run 255 RA1's with no rubbing on the fenders what so ever. This is on stock wheels though.

What offset are your 17x9.5?

[Nobodyx]

Offset is 25. Vendor said that the fronts fit fine (from what I can tell they do), but the rears will require "a little" rolling. (Apparently a little means about 3/4")

[vtluu]

Offset is 25. Vendor said that the fronts fit fine (from what I can tell they do), but the rears will require "a little" rolling.
That's a bit too "out" though you might need it for those 17x9.5s. 17x9 is more than enough for 255s; I ran 255s on 17x8.5s (offset 30)--no fender rolling needed. Now I run 275/40-17 (Kumho Victoracers) on 17x9s, offset 35. Only the rear fenders need to be rolled though 3mm (I use 5mm) spacers are needed in front, assuming you're running coilvers with 2.5" springs.

[Nobodyx]

I'll get 'em to fit somehow. I wanted to run 275s, but opted for the 255s just in case and I'm glad I did. Clearance is tight. I would have preferred that the vendor tell me that these will require a not-so insignificant amount of metalwork to get 'em to fit, though.

[hagakure]

Offset is 25. Vendor said that the fronts fit fine (from what I can tell they do), but the rears will require "a little" rolling.
That's a bit too "out" though you might need it for those 17x9.5s. 17x9 is more than enough for 255s; I ran 255s on 17x8.5s (offset 30)--no fender rolling needed. Now I run 275/40-17 (Kumho Victoracers) on 17x9s, offset 35. Only the rear fenders need to be rolled though 3mm (I use 5mm) spacers are needed in front, assuming you're running coilvers with 2.5" springs.


I run the same wheel set-up as Tam with no problems, and am glad I have gone with 275's.