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Evo442
09-17-2005, 06:05 PM
Ok, so I'm changing my oil and bleeding my brakes after the last GGLC event. Car's up on stands, I'm checking my pads, rotors, brake lines etc, and Voila - here's my right front brake line. Its a Works TKS line and you can see that the blue outer coating is rubbed (or whatever) off. That part of the brake line is fairly fixed in place. For the life of me I cannot imagine what could have rubbed the line right there and caused this. Anyone seen this or have any ideas??

http://www.norcalevo.net/forums/modules.php?set_albumName=album89&id=brakeline&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php

sorry but I can never remember how to post pics in here...

MitsuMan
09-17-2005, 06:18 PM
no clue? :shock: there looks like theres nothing even near it hope it doesn't start rubbing the braids

lqdchkn
09-17-2005, 07:12 PM
Does it rub or come close with the wheel fully turned in (out)? If the wheel was fully turned in (out) and the suspension was flexed it may have pinched against that edge behind it. It looks like you've tracked a bit so you should know that anything can happen out there.

Hate to see what would have happened to the stockers.

Just my $0.02.

evo_dadi
09-17-2005, 07:22 PM
what if that was due to heat?lots of track days can really shorten the lifespan of parts.

MitsuMan
09-17-2005, 07:29 PM
yea and that rubber isn't the strongest/ heat resistant material,. but there would be a melted area of discoloration I would think

earlyapex
09-17-2005, 07:32 PM
Nothing in the suspension could hit that area. Maybe a rock or something came up, or was like that when installed.

Is it a rip or a is it melted or?

EVO GRIM
09-17-2005, 08:04 PM
Just looks like you got brake fluid on it and it disolved. Doesn't look like rubbing to me.

dohcvtec
09-18-2005, 01:10 PM
what if that was due to heat?
Thats what I'm thinking.

Evo442
09-18-2005, 01:31 PM
well, I taped it over with duct tape and I'll keep my fingers crossed. Thanks for your input everyone.

1. doesn't look like it rubbed in the sense that the blue plastic coat almost looks cut or something. the steel braid below looks untouched (not like something was rubbing on it)

2. No evidence of burning/discoloration/heat there; and I've run these lines for over 10 track events. the other lines look fine.

3. brake fluid/dissolved? hmmm.. maybe? although I've bled my brakes over 10 times w/o this happening.

Well, will probably never know for sure... maybe just incidental damage from track debris/rock etc like early apex said.

evo_dadi
09-18-2005, 05:10 PM
as long as there's no leakage its all good :thumbsup:

MitsuMan
09-18-2005, 07:30 PM
he he he I want to see something get disolved by brake fluid that would be cool and amazing :shock:

vtluu
09-18-2005, 07:48 PM
he he he I want to see something get disolved by brake fluid that would be cool and amazing :shock:
Why don't you wash your car with it, and you'll find out what it can dissolve. :nana:

RSpilot
09-18-2005, 10:09 PM
good idea to tape it cuz if it was indeed rubbage then it will show again on the tape. It looks to me like it could have hit the inside of the caliper under full compression of the suspension. It wouldn't hurt to put some kind of coating that'll rub off on the inside of the caliper to confirm if this re-occurs.

r6bruin
09-20-2005, 12:44 AM
Here's the photo from the mentioned link:

http://www.norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/album89/brakeline.jpg

r6bruin
09-20-2005, 11:44 AM
From the blackish color of the caliper, it seems like the caliper's red power coat was heated up too much and discolored. If the power coat is heated to that point, the PVC on the brake line probably can't stand that high heat and melted / vaporized.

I remembered hearing some occurances of car got fire on brakes during track racing as the brake line catches fire.... so this might be a close call to one of those stories...

http://www.fordracing.com/news/index.asp?flashcheck=0&bhjs=0&article=21287

methods4
09-20-2005, 06:22 PM
I remember David mentioning his passenger side caliper caught on fire.

Mine has caught on fire before also. I have since bought a caliper rebuild kit (uninstalled). David, you should check your caliper seals too.

earlyapex
09-20-2005, 06:41 PM
Mine has caught on fire before also. I have since bought a caliper rebuild kit (uninstalled). David, you should check your caliper seals too.

My passenger side caliper outer seals are cracked now too. :(

5 track events and 15,000 street miles.

Stoptech kit looking better and better all the time.

Evo442
09-20-2005, 10:15 PM
I remember David mentioning his passenger side caliper caught on fire.

Mine has caught on fire before also. I have since bought a caliper rebuild kit (uninstalled). David, you should check your caliper seals too.

Thx for the advice. I need a rebuild kit too... the caliper seals are all crispy/crackly. How much was the rebuild kit and where did you get it from? I'm planning on contacting Works after my last track day in November, for a lot of upkeep/maintanence, etc. Make sure she's in top condition for the track next year!

Evo442
09-20-2005, 10:18 PM
Mine has caught on fire before also. I have since bought a caliper rebuild kit (uninstalled). David, you should check your caliper seals too.

My passenger side caliper outer seals are cracked now too. :(

5 track events and 15,000 street miles.

Stoptech kit looking better and better all the time.

Does Stoptech have a set of rear calipers now too, or are they designed to be balanced with the stock rear calipers? I had heard that there was some work still to be done balancing the Stoptech front calipers with the stock rears, but that was a while back...

earlyapex
09-20-2005, 10:42 PM
As far as I know, all stoptech front BBK's are balanced for stock rear brakes, that's one of their big selling points.

I luved my stoptech BBK on my WRX. More than carebears!

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/brakes/stoptech_01_17_04.jpg

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/brakes/on_car_dirty/640x480/stoptech011204_03sm.jpg

methods4
09-20-2005, 11:04 PM
Thx for the advice. I need a rebuild kit too... the caliper seals are all crispy/crackly. How much was the rebuild kit and where did you get it from? I'm planning on contacting Works after my last track day in November, for a lot of upkeep/maintanence, etc. Make sure she's in top condition for the track next year!

I buy my OEM parts from Dave @ Norco Mitsubishi, www.norcomits.com in SoCal. They've been a long time discount supplier to DSMers and Evo guys. I paid $100.99 for the kit. Way expensive for what it is even at a discounted price. When I got the package I was like wow, I paid $100 for a few o-rings. But what can ya do. :cry:

Evo442
09-21-2005, 06:03 AM
thx tony, bryan.

i'll have to order one of those brake rebuild kits too.

those stoptechs look sweet!

smack
09-21-2005, 09:02 AM
alcons all the way...

those stoptechs are cute though :twisted:

crctslt
09-22-2005, 12:39 AM
Yes but Stoptechs don't have wussy bolts :twisted:

smack
09-22-2005, 12:08 PM
ummm that was the factory bolt there sparky.
by the way you guys running that much heat through the calipers might want to retorque
those just to make sure they aren't getting weakened from all that heat.

i still think it was just a bad bolt though.

oh yeah, evan, you probably don't need to worry about this since you're not really going that fast around the track. :lol:

Evo442
10-29-2005, 05:34 PM
Thx for the advice. I need a rebuild kit too... the caliper seals are all crispy/crackly. How much was the rebuild kit and where did you get it from? I'm planning on contacting Works after my last track day in November, for a lot of upkeep/maintanence, etc. Make sure she's in top condition for the track next year!

I buy my OEM parts from Dave @ Norco Mitsubishi, www.norcomits.com in SoCal. They've been a long time discount supplier to DSMers and Evo guys. I paid $100.99 for the kit. Way expensive for what it is even at a discounted price. When I got the package I was like wow, I paid $100 for a few o-rings. But what can ya do. :cry:

Damn Tony - It was $100 PER CALIPER! I ordered rebuild kits for both front calipers today; almost $200.

MarkSAE
10-29-2005, 07:11 PM
I took off my wheel today and noticed the same thing happened to my passenger side front brake line. This is only after one track event on the WORKS line. The driver's side line hasn't gotten hot enough yet. hehe..

methods4
10-29-2005, 07:17 PM
Damn Tony - It was $100 PER CALIPER! I ordered rebuild kits for both front calipers today; almost $200.

Yeeep. Told you it was ridiculous. It will look even more ridiculous once you receive your "rebuild kit" and see what it actually includes.

MarkSAE
10-29-2005, 07:32 PM
I am pretty sure the o-rings you're getting are not your regular viton o-rings because they can only withstand a temperature of about 400F before they fail. The brake caliper o-rings are most likely some high temperature perfluorinated elastomer, which usually costs 8-10X more than a viton o-ring. So don't go to Kragen with your rebuild kit, get the same size o-rings, and put them in. Cuz I definitely would not want to sit in your car at the track!

Evo442
10-29-2005, 08:48 PM
I took off my wheel today and noticed the same thing happened to my passenger side front brake line. This is only after one track event on the WORKS line. The driver's side line hasn't gotten hot enough yet. hehe..

Hey Mark - can you take a picture? it wasn't a heat issue. I wrapped the exposed steel braid with duct tape and its been fine.

EvoVIII
10-30-2005, 02:59 AM
time to upgrade ur brakes

MarkSAE
10-30-2005, 10:32 AM
Hey Mark - can you take a picture? it wasn't a heat issue. I wrapped the exposed steel braid with duct tape and its been fine.

Here's a picture of mine:
http://www.norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/album209/DSC06469.sized.jpg

You sure it wasn't a heat issue? My lines are pretty much brand new and look like this after one event. I am pretty sure that shrink wrap melted due to the high temperature. And it only happened to my passenger side front, which seems to be the corner that gets the hottest. All the other ones were fine.

Also, I would remove that duct tape ASAP as the strings in it make it flammable. Don't ask me how I know.

Evo442
10-30-2005, 10:43 AM
Hey Mark - can you take a picture? it wasn't a heat issue. I wrapped the exposed steel braid with duct tape and its been fine.

Here's a picture of mine:
http://www.norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/album209/DSC06469.sized.jpg

You sure it wasn't a heat issue? My lines are pretty much brand new and look like this after one event. I am pretty sure that shrink wrap melted due to the high temperature. And it only happened to my passenger side front, which seems to be the corner that gets the hottest. All the other ones were fine.

Also, I would remove that duct tape ASAP as the strings in it make it flammable. Don't ask me how I know.

WTF?!! Yours looks just like mine except the bottom part is a lot more ragged. the top of the defect looks identical to mine! I had come to the conclusion that mine was an isolated thing, and i must have hit some road debris or something. hmm...

And no, I'm 99% sure that mine was not a heat issue... the blue coating looked cut, not melted and there was no char/discoloration around the edges...

-david

MarkSAE
10-30-2005, 11:07 AM
Yeah, our brake lines look identical almost. If you think about where the line gets most of the heat, it's from the caliper. Heat will travel through the banjo fitting through conduction, and start melting the shrink wrap.

Different materials react differently to heat. They don't all char before they melt.

I remember noticing the same thing on Percy's car when he was getting his quaife installed at WORKS a few weeks ago. Except his has melted a little more and that slit is further up. I didn't check his driver's side line though.

earlyapex
10-30-2005, 11:10 AM
I'm still using my stock brake lines, I'll have to check if I have the same issue.

I have some SS lines that have been sitting on my shelf for like 4 months. Been too lazy to put them on and I haven't really felt the need to yet. Brakes have been fine for the last 6 track events.

Evo442
10-30-2005, 11:20 AM
I'm still using my stock brake lines, I'll have to check if I have the same issue.

I have some SS lines that have been sitting on my shelf for like 4 months. Been too lazy to put them on and I haven't really felt the need to yet. Brakes have been fine for the last 6 track events.

Pedal feel is soo much nicer tho'...

earlyapex
10-30-2005, 11:22 AM
Pedal feel is soo much nicer tho'...

yea, i've just been lazy. Knowing me, I will finally install SS lines when I am forced because the Stoptech kit requires them. :shock:

methods4
10-30-2005, 11:35 AM
I am pretty sure the o-rings you're getting are not your regular viton o-rings because they can only withstand a temperature of about 400F before they fail. The brake caliper o-rings are most likely some high temperature perfluorinated elastomer, which usually costs 8-10X more than a viton o-ring. So don't go to Kragen with your rebuild kit, get the same size o-rings, and put them in. Cuz I definitely would not want to sit in your car at the track!

I was only oversimplifying what the package includes. The o-rings are in fact not any standard O-ring you can find at Kragens. As for their material, I'm sure they aren't standard either.

But do I think it costs even 25% of what I paid for the rebuild kit? Probably not. I'll take pics soon and show you what it includes.

vtluu
11-21-2005, 10:36 AM
Figured I'd copy this from the NCRC 11/19 track day thread:

About five laps in to my 3rd session of the day at TH, about halfway though braking for turn 9, the brake pedal suddenly went all the way to the floor. Pumping the brakes did no good; I immediately knew something had "popped" in the brake system. Luckily I'd gotten enough braking done so I just went wide on 9 and used the 9-10 straight to coast and engine-brake down to a much slower speed and crawled back to the pits.

I checked the four corners of the car and immediately saw that brake fluid was pouring out at the front right (hottest) wheel. Took the wheel off and basically this is what I found:

http://www.norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/album369/IMGP1835.jpg

http://www.norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/album369/IMGP1837.jpg

The brake line had popped right off the fitting. What I think happened is that because that caliper was heating up, the metal fitting expanded a bit and its grip on the braided hose loosened enough for the latter to slip off under pressure.

I also noticed the plastic sheathing had cracked and come off the bit where the brake line runs through the middle bracket, though that was unrelated to the failure:

http://www.norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/album369/IMGP1840.jpg

I was lucky that Jason in the Evo MR parked right next to me had brought his stock brake lines as spares (who knows why; who expects their brake lines to fail?) so it took only a short drive to his hotel to get them. I had the replacement line on my car in a few minutes, flushed the whole brake system within an hour (sinced air had gotten pumped into many of the brake lines), and was back out on the track after missing only one session.

I'll be going with the StopTech brake lines--figure that guys who do only brakes will know how to make decent brake lines. I'll also make a point of inspecting the brake lines more closely in the future--though it's not clear that in this case it would have helped since it appears the line popped right off in one shot rather than slipping off bit by bit.

dohcvtec
11-21-2005, 12:19 PM
EEK!!

What is Works' response to this?

wilson1
11-21-2005, 12:38 PM
A few of us have already email Pete@Works concerning this problem, and hopefully it would get resolve fast. The selling point of these is that they should holdup on extreme applications.
I have a set on, and seeing what's happening , not happy about it as someone can get seriously injured or killed! :?

ZK
11-21-2005, 12:51 PM
I've had complete brak failure happen to me before entering turn 2 at Laguna Seca (big left hand u-shaped corner after front straight). It was a very scary experience, I went off into the gravel at 60mph and luckily it stopped me about 2 feet away from the tire wall.

I was testing a prototype Wilwood brake set up, the caliper overheated from being too close to the rotor, melted the aluminum and exposed the internal brake line inside the caliper. So all it did was pump out brake fluid and you see clouds of smoke from the fluid burning up on the hot rotor.

That was the scariest off I've ever had. I was well over 100mph and when I got on the brake, the pedal went to the floor. I was pulling the ebrake, pumping the pedal, everything to try to slow the car down.

To this day, I've been afraid to push hard at Laguna Seca.

SJCoruja
11-21-2005, 06:18 PM
A few of us have already email Pete@Works concerning this problem, and hopefully it would get resolve fast. The selling point of these is that they should holdup on extreme applications.
I have a set on, and seeing what's happening , not happy about it as someone can get seriously injured or killed! :?

Thanks Wilson! I too am curious what the resolution will be as I just got mine on last month. :)

hagakure
11-21-2005, 06:32 PM
A few of us have already email Pete@Works concerning this problem, and hopefully it would get resolve fast. The selling point of these is that they should holdup on extreme applications.
I have a set on, and seeing what's happening , not happy about it as someone can get seriously injured or killed! :?

Thanks Wilson! I too am curious what the resolution will be as I just got mine on last month. :)


The solution in my opinion is to credit evereyone that bought these lines their money back, or offer them some stoptech or other lines, plus free install, asap. I'm a bit surprised at the delay in putting out a message regardingt hese lines, and their proposed solution. It's a bit out of character of their usually impeccable business practices. Not to be negative, just a little perplexed.

vtluu
11-21-2005, 06:37 PM
I met and spoke with Pete at length about this problem this afternoon. We examined the failed brake line in detail to try to determine the cause of failure. I'll let WORKS issue their own statement in due course, but I'll say this:
- It looks like a variety of factors contritubed to the failure I experienced, and I believe that the same kind of failure is unlikely in scenarios outside of the racetrack.
- The brake lines WORKS now sells have a newer--and to my eyes, better--design of brake line fittings than the ones I had.
- I'm satisfied that WORKS is dealing with this matter with the appropriate amount of urgency.

hagakure
11-21-2005, 06:48 PM
Good.

I look forward to their repsonse. I've examined my lines carefully and they look safe, but I'd rather have a bit more of a security blanket, as it were.

wilson1
11-21-2005, 07:04 PM
percy, when did you pick up your lines?

earlyapex
11-21-2005, 07:04 PM
- I'm satisfied that WORKS is dealing with this matter with the appropriate amount of urgency.

You should be really satisfied that you are still alive to talk to WORKS about this problem to begin with.

vtluu
11-21-2005, 07:07 PM
You should be really satisfied that you are still alive to talk to WORKS about this problem to begin with.
Sure, although it should be noted that the brake line failure was not responsible for the two times I spun off the track on Saturday. It's a bit ironic that I managed to stay on-track when the brake line failed, and spun off the track twice purely due to ineptness on my part. :oops:

earlyapex
11-21-2005, 07:12 PM
It's a bit ironic that I managed to stay on-track when the brake line failed, and spun off the track twice purely due to ineptness on my part. :oops:

No, that's called someone is watching out for you, you are one lucky mofo. This is the 2nd case I have heard of the lines failing on track.

I guess the third time's a charm.

Evo442
11-21-2005, 07:20 PM
I met and spoke with Pete at length about this problem this afternoon. We examined the failed brake line in detail to try to determine the cause of failure. I'll let WORKS issue their own statement in due course, but I'll say this:
- It looks like a variety of factors contritubed to the failure I experienced, and I believe that the same kind of failure is unlikely in scenarios outside of the racetrack.
- The brake lines WORKS now sells have a newer--and to my eyes, better--design of brake line fittings than the ones I had.
- I'm satisfied that WORKS is dealing with this matter with the appropriate amount of urgency.

I will say that I've had the same experience with the Works TKS lines. Same right front tire. We had discussed the possibility that there could be something with my personal car or driving style that make this line failure more likely, but it would seem that this is not so since it happened to Tam now. I've discussed it in detail with Pete and I know that he is very concerned about this. Pete is discussing it with the manufacturer of the lines, and I would expect a statement from Works in the future.

I agree with Tam that it is unlikely that this would occur outside of the track. I believe it is a combination of extreme heat and extreme pressure under heavy braking.

As for the newer design, I believe that I had this happen with the newer design, but perhaps Works has an even newer design out there.

For myself, the TKS lines are coming off my fronts prior to my next track day, the day after thanksgiving. I have some Goodridge lines sitting in my garage. My personal recommendation would be for the rest of you to do the same if you are planning on tracking your cars. I personally have no qualms about running the TKS lines on the street tho'.

Glad you were ok, Tam!

Evo442
11-21-2005, 07:23 PM
Good.

I look forward to their repsonse. I've examined my lines carefully and they look safe, but I'd rather have a bit more of a security blanket, as it were.

My lines looked fine when I switched to my track tires, so a visual inspection may not do it.

MarkSAE
11-21-2005, 07:30 PM
I think one way to check to see if your line is pulling out is to take the old line off and place it right next to a new line. If the length of the old line is longer, it is most likely pulling out of the fitting. I'll be pulling my lines off to do this comparison when I get something as a replacement.

My front lines are definitely under the suspicion of pulling out as they exhibit the melted vacuum shrink tubing right at the fitting on the right front line.

What other brand lines have people been using on their EVOs at the track? I'm thinking of getting Stoptech or Goodridge.

hagakure
11-21-2005, 07:44 PM
percy, when did you pick up your lines?

It's been over a year ago.

Percy

earlyapex
11-21-2005, 07:45 PM
What other brand lines have people been using on their EVOs at the track? I'm thinking of getting Stoptech or Goodridge.

Get Stoptech. Goodridge had some of the same problems a couple years ago.

I'm still using stock lines. :lol:

evo637
11-21-2005, 08:20 PM
What other brand lines have people been using on their EVOs at the track? I'm thinking of getting Stoptech or Goodridge.

Get Stoptech. Goodridge had some of the same problems a couple years ago.

I'm still using stock lines. :lol:


what about endless brake lines compared to stoptech. Is one better or is the endless priced higher because of the name

vtluu
11-21-2005, 08:30 PM
StopTech only does brakes, so I think they know their stuff.

dohcvtec
11-21-2005, 08:49 PM
- It looks like a variety of factors contritubed to the failure I experienced, and I believe that the same kind of failure is unlikely in scenarios outside of the racetrack.

Isn't this the main reason we use braided lines? :?

Evo442
11-21-2005, 10:25 PM
What other brand lines have people been using on their EVOs at the track? I'm thinking of getting Stoptech or Goodridge.

Get Stoptech. Goodridge had some of the same problems a couple years ago.

I'm still using stock lines. :lol:

My understanding was that the early Goodridge lines for the evo had a design flaw, that the company acknowleged the problem, corrected it and replaced the flawed lines. Is this not the case? Should I be worried about running the goodridge lines at the track?

MarkSAE
11-21-2005, 10:33 PM
The first batch of the Goodridge lines did not use a 90 degree bend on the rear line fitting, so the line was aimed directly into the rear CV shafts. This was corrected right away.

Was there an issue w/ Goodridge lines pulling out of their fittings too?

vtluu
11-21-2005, 10:42 PM
Isn't this the main reason we use braided lines? :?
We got braided lines to improve braking response on and off the track. Obviously a product that may fail at the track is not useful to people such as you or I. My point was simply that there's no reason for people to panic just because they have these brake lines.

earlyapex
11-22-2005, 12:05 AM
My point was simply that there's no reason for people to panic just because they have these brake lines.

I was going to respond with something witty to this but then I realized it would just fall on deaf ears.

earlyapex
11-22-2005, 12:24 AM
or you could *GASP* go back to the stock lines maybe?

ack!

Cameron@xperformance
11-22-2005, 12:44 AM
or you could *GASP* go back to the stock lines maybe?

ack!
i think you should try using the stock lines for a while :lol:

Evo442
11-22-2005, 06:52 AM
or you could *GASP* go back to the stock lines maybe?

ack!

blasphemer!

what do they say? friends dont let friends drive stock?....

gOt BoOsT
11-22-2005, 09:33 AM
- It looks like a variety of factors contritubed to the failure I experienced, and I believe that the same kind of failure is unlikely in scenarios outside of the racetrack.

Isn't this the main reason we use braided lines? :?
:werd: ...the last thing i need is for my brakes to fail & wrap my "family" car

gOt BoOsT
11-22-2005, 09:37 AM
anyone want to buy some used TKS lines...they're bulletproof on the street :wink:

vtluu
11-22-2005, 09:37 AM
...the last thing i need is for my brakes to fail & wrap my "family" car
OEM parts undergo a lot more testing than aftermarket parts so there's generally more inherent risk of failure with the latter. Nobody "expects" parts to fail but if you were so concerned about reliability, maybe you should have stayed stock?

dohcvtec
11-22-2005, 09:52 AM
...the last thing i need is for my brakes to fail & wrap my "family" car
OEM parts undergo a lot more testing than aftermarket parts so there's generally more inherent risk of failure with the latter. Nobody "expects" parts to fail but if you were so concerned about reliability, maybe you should have stayed stock?
Are you still trying to defend their integrity?

cokofellah
11-22-2005, 09:54 AM
...the last thing i need is for my brakes to fail & wrap my "family" car
OEM parts undergo a lot more testing than aftermarket parts so there's generally more inherent risk of failure with the latter. Nobody "expects" parts to fail but if you were so concerned about reliability, maybe you should have stayed stock?

read about your brake failure...good to know your ok.

vtluu
11-22-2005, 10:42 AM
Are you still trying to defend their integrity?
Was there a flaw in design or fabrication of the parts in question? Quite possibly. Was there gross negligence? I don't have any reason to believe so.

As for their integrity, that's for them to demonstrate, or not, by how they deal with this issue. I hope to see a public response from them soon.

earlyapex
11-22-2005, 10:51 AM
or you could *GASP* go back to the stock lines maybe?

ack!
i think you should try using the stock lines for a while :lol:

I've been using the stock lines since I bought the car and 6 track events. No problem what so ever.

vtluu
11-22-2005, 10:58 AM
I've been using the stock lines since I bought the car and 6 track events. No problem what so ever.
Fair enough, but I could have said the same thing about the WORKS brake lines on Friday--just because a part creates "no problem" the first N times, doesn't mean it won't fail the next time. We push our cars pretty hard. Things break as a result. Yes, brakes are pretty high up on the list of "Things I Don't Want To Break Without Warning". Ask the guy in the blue Viper on Sunday who cracked a rear rotor and went spinning into the wall on the back straight.

I just hope the problem can be fully understood and dealt with before anybody gets hurt or anybody's car gets wrecked.

earlyapex
11-22-2005, 11:02 AM
Tam I wasn't saying that, just stating that the stock brake lines have served me fine so far.

I have SS lines that have been sitting on my shelf for over 4 months, I haven't really had the urge to put them on since I'm not having an issue with the stockers. Well, that and I am lazy. :lol:

smack
11-22-2005, 01:09 PM
Fair enough, but I could have said the same thing about the WORKS brake lines on Friday--just because a part creates "no problem" the first N times, doesn't mean it won't fail the next time. We push our cars pretty hard. Things break as a result. Yes, brakes are pretty high up on the list of "Things I Don't Want To Break Without Warning". Ask the guy in the blue Viper on Sunday who cracked a rear rotor and went spinning into the wall on the back straight.

I just hope the problem can be fully understood and dealt with before anybody gets hurt or anybody's car gets wrecked.

sorry this goes so long and that i sound like a dick :lol:
i'm just a bit passionate because this shit matters.
i do NOT want to read one of those posts about someone here not making it
home from a trackday.

ok, here goes...

the thing is that these things aren't necesarily without warning.
the fact that there have been threads about the shielding on these brake lines
melting off shows that there is more heat going through the line than was expected by the manufacturer.
it easy to say "don't panic" and hey they'll figure it out "in due time", because you got really fucking lucky!

and i think everyone here is damn grateful for it, but what if you didn't get to scrub off any speed
or went straight off 14 though and t-boned someone going through 7(like the last guys that got killed at t-hill) that's what's scary about the situation.
i could have been soooo much worse.

the REAL problem isn't even the lines so much as the brakes generating too much heat and the rotors not being able to shed it properly.
so the heat transfers to the caliper which in turn tranfers right though the lines. then we compound the problem
by running higher temp pads which pushes even more heat into an already overworked system.

then we crack on each other because your caliper paint isn't as "dark" as the other guys, instead of saying wow!
he's a lot fucking closer to a possible catastophic brake failure than you. but hey, that's a whole other thread.

don't get me wrong, i like pete alot i just think that this should have been addressed right off the bat.
i feel there should have been a "don't run our lines on the track until further testing can be done" mail as soon as they heard about it.
the fact that there still isn't any type of response from "them" is just wrong.

ps. the cracked rotor is something that should have been seen also. that's why there is tech.
you really ARE supposed to look at these parts.
check to make sure that those surface cracks on the rotors that you remember seeing at the last event when you were busy putting in your trick
pads,haven't gotten worse or made it out to the outer edge of the rotor.

it's not just making sure you have your battery strapped down tight or tape on your headlights. what you do out there effects you AND the guys behind you.

holy crap! sorry for the rant :oops:

pps as long as i'm being a dick...
hey got boost, can you please replace the pair of rear pads that i lent you
so you could make it home from that one trackday?

hagakure
11-22-2005, 01:19 PM
I have to agree completely, 100% with Sean. I am also going to be working dillengently in this off season to get some quality brake cooling added to my car.


Percy

dohcvtec
11-22-2005, 01:19 PM
:werd:


pps as long as i'm being a dick...
hey got boost, can you please replace the pair of rear pads that i lent you
so you could make it home from that one trackday?

Billy, you didn't give the man his pads back?

redvolution
11-22-2005, 01:39 PM
I called Stasis engineering a week ago and asked about 2-pc replacement rotors for the Evo. They told me that they won't be making them anymore because the design of the stock rotor setup can't dissapate heat sufficiently. In short, the surface area of the hat isn't big enough relative to the surface area of the rotor. They did say they will be offering a $$$ 6piston setup soon.

earlyapex
11-22-2005, 01:55 PM
They told me that they won't be making them anymore because the design of the stock rotor setup can't dissapate heat sufficiently. In short, the surface area of the hat isn't big enough relative to the surface area of the rotor.

That and the brembo caliper pad size doesn't help. Yet another reason I am going to stoptechs.

btw, I am sick of trying to be nice and I just want to say that this WORKS brake line failure has happened THREE TIMES. Once with Tam and TWICE with one other person.

I cannot believe nothing has been posted or talked about by WORKS yet.

leif
11-22-2005, 02:36 PM
They told me that they won't be making them anymore because the design of the stock rotor setup can't dissapate heat sufficiently. In short, the surface area of the hat isn't big enough relative to the surface area of the rotor.

That and the brembo caliper pad size doesn't help. Yet another reason I am going to stoptechs.

btw, I am sick of trying to be nice and I just want to say that this WORKS brake line failure has happened THREE TIMES. Once with Tam and TWICE with one other person.

I cannot believe nothing has been posted or talked about by WORKS yet.

+1

smack
11-22-2005, 03:55 PM
both of these issues are exactly the problem.
the pads have so much surface area that they generate a ton of heat
and the rotors just can't get rid of it. i had the original stasis replacements
and they worked better than stock and ended up costing less to replace than
stock once you had the centerhats but when you really pushed you could get them overheated as well.
that's why i finally went with the 6-pots. right now they are for 18" only but i
know jason has been working on a 343mm(i think) that will still fit under stock
wheels but will use rotors that are much better at shedding heat. this will also
help from killing wheel bearings as well since the heat travels through the
whole hub assembly with the stock setup

gOt BoOsT
11-22-2005, 04:39 PM
removed post

SJCoruja
11-22-2005, 05:45 PM
Not to add fuel to the fire but, other than the HPDS at Thunderhill, my lines have only seen street/highway 9 use and I narrowly avoided brake failure on El Camino due to fluid loss from my driver's front line. Mine though appeared to be from the fitting becoming loose/not connecting securely and under pressure fluid was escaping. I had written it off as a fluke and just really tightened down the line, but now...


Still hoping WORKS will show the love for the community and issue some statement/solution/upgrade asap. :)

EVO GRIM
11-22-2005, 06:34 PM
Matt weren't your lines installed at works?

WORKS Engineering
11-22-2005, 11:57 PM
In the interest of collecting data and facts from various customers over the past couple of days, we wanted a better understanding of the situation before posting a hasty reply. This is our prognosis thus far.


Although we are car enthusiasts at heart and like to go fast, safety has always and will continue to be our number one concern.
We have sold hundreds of brake lines to track and road enthusiasts nationwide but there have been recent incidents with hard use at the track which require our attention. There have been no incidents reported during use on the road.

Because we are concerned with safety, each and every brake line is pressure tested to 4000+ psi with fluid (not air) to ensure the utmost safety and carries approval from the D.O.T. This is 300% to 400% higher than pressure exerted inside the line under braking.

We are so confident in our designs that we always utilize what we produce and this product is no exception. Our WORKS race car which just won class at Time Attack and our shop MR runs these same off-the-shelf TKS brake lines as well as all of our personal EVOs for years which makes 6 total. We have not seen any sign of fatigue or failure with any of our cars (although most of us are running the Mitsubishi brake guides). *As a side note, this issue has not occurred to any vehicles running the Mitsubishi brake guides or other brake cooling devices.
To explore any heat related issue, we are implementing a new testing procedure which includes heating the testing environment to simulate track usage.

Although we believe these incidents are isolated, there are several things you can do to help prevent an undesirable brake situation:

1) Implement a brake cooling device to help prevent the heat from building up in your calipers such as the Mitsubishi brake guides and trim the plastic undertray per the Mitsubishi instructions.

2) Please have the lines properly installed by an Authorized WORKS Dealer. As simple as they seem, there is some indication that a line failure was due to installation error. For instance, adding any type of locking or restriction device (i.e. zip tie) in the wrong location may prevent the line from moving freely in either direction through the intermediate sleeve. In fact, many track EVOs have the intermediate sleeve disconnected as a result of brake lines pulling out of their fittings among all different brands.

3) Please use a very high-grade brake fluid such as “Motul RBF 600” to prevent the brake fluid from boiling. This can degrade any brake line very quickly. *As another side note, the brake line issue we are addressing has not occurred with any EVO while using “Motul RBF 600”.

It seems like another concern is with the outer blue jacket. Although this coating prevents particles from embedding into the stainless steel braid, this is not a functional part of the line and may deform under excessive heat. There is no direct correlation with jacket deformation and line failures. As stated in our installation instructions,
“*The blue protective coating on these lines may degrade over time depending on temperature and flex. This will not affect their performance or functionality.”

As a manufacturer we have an obligation to provide the safest product possible. With the holidays and winter upon us, this will give us ample time to test and ensure we have a safe and superior product.
Meanwhile, for those running our brake lines at the track between now and the end of the year (especially without any brake cooling), please contact us for further information. You can call us at 415.641.WORKS (9675) or email [email protected].

SJCoruja
11-23-2005, 12:22 AM
Matt weren't your lines installed at works?

Yep...I've just gotten in the habit of checking them all the time to make sure the fittings are tight and no more fluid loss occurs. :(

vtluu
11-23-2005, 04:29 AM
I'm a bit resentful of the implication in (2) that I installed these lines incorrectly and thereby caused the failure I experienced. Again I'll point out the only reason I had a zip-tie on the line to prevent it from sliding forward, was because soon after installing it I discovered the line could slide forward and brush against the inside of the wheel, causing the sheathing to wear down to the metal braiding (and beyond, if left unchecked):

http://www.norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/album06/brake_line_problem.jpg

Furthermore I should note that I put the zip tie on the line, at that specific location, per WORKS's instructions after consulting them about the above problem. I believe the fact that the line can slide freely and contact the wheel is a design flaw and I'm slightly surprised it wasn't corrected in the newer version of the brake lines.

I'm also curious about the statement, "There is no direct correlation with jacket deformation and line failures." I've seen enough evidence to suggest that the jacket can melt. Logically, the point at which it's most likely to melt is where it experiences the highest temperature, which is at the banjo bolt fitting at the brake caliper. It's not a stretch of the imagination to see that if the jacket does melt, then it can more easily slip off the fitting.

I agree that heat does play a part in the brake line failure. However, there's no indication that the brake system itself was "overheated"--caliper, rotor, pads and fluid were performing just fine; it seems the only component that couldn't "take the heat" was the brake line. Of course, better brake cooling would help--but it's not included with the brake lines nor were there any instructions that it was required.

It's my opinion that the WORKS TKS brake lines have the following design flaws that can lead to their failure:
- As shipped, the line can slide around freely causing it to contact the inside of the wheel, causing progressive wear on the line.
- The plastic jacket on the line is unable to withstand the temperatures typically seen around the brake caliper during heavy use. As a result it can melt and slip off the fitting under conditions of sufficiently high temperature and brake fluid pressure.

Finally, I was a bit dismayed to learn that someone had experienced this same failure not once but twice before I did, and that I wasn't informed of any potential problem given the catastrophic nature of the potential failure. In light of this, the assertion that "safety is our number one concern" rings somewhat hollow. In the interest of informing the widest possible audience, I've posted WORKS's statement (http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?p=2568177#post2568177) on the appropriate forum at EvolutionM.net.

Cameron@xperformance
11-23-2005, 06:41 AM
shouldnt you post this under the WORKS section on EvoM?

Evo442
11-23-2005, 08:15 AM
We are so confident in our designs that we always utilize what we produce and this product is no exception. Our WORKS race car which just won class at Time Attack and our shop MR runs these same off-the-shelf TKS brake lines as well as all of our personal EVOs for years which makes 6 total. We have not seen any sign of fatigue or failure with any of our cars (although most of us are running the Mitsubishi brake guides). *As a side note, this issue has not occurred to any vehicles running the Mitsubishi brake guides or other brake cooling devices.
To explore any heat related issue, we are implementing a new testing procedure which includes heating the testing environment to simulate track usage.

Although we believe these incidents are isolated, there are several things you can do to help prevent an undesirable brake situation:

1) Implement a brake cooling device to help prevent the heat from building up in your calipers such as the Mitsubishi brake guides and trim the plastic undertray per the Mitsubishi instructions.

2) Please have the lines properly installed by an Authorized WORKS Dealer. As simple as they seem, there is some indication that a line failure was due to installation error. For instance, adding any type of locking or restriction device (i.e. zip tie) in the wrong location may prevent the line from moving freely in either direction through the intermediate sleeve. In fact, many track EVOs have the intermediate sleeve disconnected as a result of brake lines pulling out of their fittings among all different brands.

3) Please use a very high-grade brake fluid such as “Motul RBF 600” to prevent the brake fluid from boiling. This can degrade any brake line very quickly. *As another side note, the brake line issue we are addressing has not occurred with any EVO while using “Motul RBF 600”.

It seems like another concern is with the outer blue jacket. Although this coating prevents particles from embedding into the stainless steel braid, this is not a functional part of the line and may deform under excessive heat. There is no direct correlation with jacket deformation and line failures. As stated in our installation instructions,
“*The blue protective coating on these lines may degrade over time depending on temperature and flex. This will not affect their performance or functionality.”


So: for the record - my brake lines were installed by Works themselves. I was running ATE Super Blue as recommended by Works. I still had my dust shields on (which I have subsequently removed), and I was not running any cooling ducts etc. (I now have brake air guides on.)

For me, it is difficult to accept that this is now an "isolated incident" since it has happened to someone besides me; particularly since what happened to Tam happened in the same car, at the same track, on the same turn, with the same brake line on the same corner of the car. I find it more likely that a particular set of conditions has uncovered a design flaw in the line itself. Even if Works has sold 300 sets of lines, if 3 have failed, that is still a 1% failure rate! I have no qualms about admitting that I beat on my evo at the track, but no matter how poor my braking technique or whatever, a piece of equipment like this just shouldn't fail.

As far as running the lines on all the Works cars go, how much track time have any of the Works cars (except for the race car) seen? And even the race car, how much track time has that car (and its brake lines) really seen?

Personally, I would like to know what the original manufacturer of the lines has said. Works does not produce these lines themselves. Perhaps there is a larger body of data and experience out there that we can draw from.

I too have expressed my concerns to Works over the pace at which this brake line issue has been addressed. I do not in any way believe that this an attempt to be deceitful; I have done business with Works in the past , and will continue to do so because I believe that Pete is a stand-up guy who produces high quality products. I do think, however, that the Works response does reflect Pete's nature, which seems to be conservative and thorough, characteristics perhaps more suitable for some situations over others.

With the brake line problem occuring now with more that one driver, I am hoping that Works understands that this is more than an "isolated incident" and will make this issue their number one priority.

hagakure
11-23-2005, 09:27 AM
I'm a bit resentful of the implication in (2) that I installed these lines incorrectly and thereby caused the failure I experienced. Again I'll point out the only reason I had a zip-tie on the line to prevent it from sliding forward, was because soon after installing it I discovered the line could slide forward and brush against the inside of the wheel, causing the sheathing to wear down to the metal braiding (and beyond, if left unchecked):

http://www.norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/album06/brake_line_problem.jpg

Furthermore I should note that I put the zip tie on the line, at that specific location, per WORKS's instructions after consulting them about the above problem. I believe the fact that the line can slide freely and contact the wheel is a design flaw and I'm slightly surprised it wasn't corrected in the newer version of the brake lines.

I'm also curious about the statement, "There is no direct correlation with jacket deformation and line failures." I've seen enough evidence to suggest that the jacket can melt. Logically, the point at which it's most likely to melt is where it experiences the highest temperature, which is at the banjo bolt fitting at the brake caliper. It's not a stretch of the imagination to see that if the jacket does melt, then it can more easily slip off the fitting.

I agree that heat does play a part in the brake line failure. However, there's no indication that the brake system itself was "overheated"--caliper, rotor, pads and fluid were performing just fine; it seems the only component that couldn't "take the heat" was the brake line. Of course, better brake cooling would help--but it's not included with the brake lines nor were there any instructions that it was required.

It's my opinion that the WORKS TKS brake lines have the following design flaws that can lead to their failure:
- As shipped, the line can slide around freely causing it to contact the inside of the wheel, causing progressive wear on the line.
- The plastic jacket on the line is unable to withstand the temperatures typically seen around the brake caliper during heavy use. As a result it can melt and slip off the fitting under conditions of sufficiently high temperature and brake fluid pressure.

Finally, I was a bit dismayed to learn that someone had experienced this same failure not once but twice before I did, and that I wasn't informed of any potential problem given the catastrophic nature of the potential failure. In light of this, the assertion that "safety is our number one concern" rings somewhat hollow. In the interest of informing the widest possible audience, I've posted WORKS's statement (http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?p=2568177#post2568177) on the appropriate forum at EvolutionM.net.



I've got to support Tam in his rebuttal. I have done a great deal of business with works, literally spent thousands of dollars with them in the past two years. I am satisfied with the quality of their parts so far, and they have always dealt with me kindly and in good nature. However, this response is not entirely a surprise to me. Works business responses are always conservative, and to some degree, a bit cagey. I'm disappointed, greatly, in their response, because it is totally evasive of a very serious problem, and reeks of some pointed consultation from legal counsel. Smart on one hand, not on the other, because this response does serve to markedly weaken my loyalty. I'll continue to buy hardware from them, and I'll continue to have them tweak my tune as needed, until I can step up to an AEM/EMS. But I'll not pay their exorbitant service costs, and will limit my necessary buisness involvements with them until issues like this begin to get sorted out in a different manner. Again, I assert, THEY ARE NICE GUYS. But that does not excuse their response to this situation. David was right. Their cars get tracked VERY LITTLE compared to David's Tam's my self, or several other people on this board. And, why should one HAVE to run additional brake cooling to cover up for a design flaw in the lines? I don't read about stock lines being fried and letting go, and the TKS lines are ostensibly superior to these. Not good Works, I'm sorry to say.


Percy

vtluu
11-23-2005, 09:44 AM
shouldnt you post this under the WORKS section on EvoM?
The Goodridge brake line advisory is in the section where I posted so it seemed appropriate. Also, I wasn't sure if WORKS has mod powers in the WORKS forums, and I wanted to post this in a section where they don't.

I agree with Percy, I too am disappointed at the response and think it smells highly of CYA (Cover Your Ass). I'm aware that their financial exposure is pretty big--300 sets of lines at $170 each is $51k so something like a recall probably seems unpalatable; furthermore from a legal standpoint it might be considered admission of fault in the lines' design. I just hope that no-one out there gets hurt as a result of not being made aware of this problem, however, because I can only imagine the kind of problems that could cause, financially and legally.

I really like the crew over at WORKS and I wish them nothing but success and prosperity, and I can appreciate the difficulty of their situation... Pete is a good guy and I know this matter rests heavily on his conscience, and I continue to hope that they'll do the right thing.

leif
11-23-2005, 10:12 AM
i think one of you should post something because its been how long, over a week (?) and they haven't? that's rediculous. this isn't something that can be brushed off, its yous bloody brake lines! if they went out at turn 10 or 11 at sears point instead of turn 9 or wherever it was at thill you WOULD be dead or very seriously injured. i whole heartedly agree that the works boys are very nice, and while i'm still a vishnu guy, i've spent a lot of money with them too. however just because they are nice doesn't mean you can let something like this slide this long.

vtluu
11-23-2005, 11:10 AM
i think one of you should post something
Haven't we? What else would you have us say?

FYI I did find one documented case of the stock brake lines failing in the very same way: http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=104430

leif
11-23-2005, 01:49 PM
i think one of you should post something
Haven't we? What else would you have us say?

FYI I did find one documented case of the stock brake lines failing in the very same way: http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=104430

you know what i meant....like on the works forum or something. hell i don't care i don't have their brake lines, your call.

vtluu
11-23-2005, 02:15 PM
you know what i meant....like on the works forum or something.
Ideally I'd like the topic listed both in the "Brakes" and "WORKS" forums. I didn't want to create two separate threads on the same site about the same topic, so I chose to put it in the "Brakes" forum rather than the "WORKS" one. If you know a way to get it listed under both, let me know.

SJCoruja
11-23-2005, 11:48 PM
Please tell me this isn't the only response we're going to get. :(




In the interest of collecting data and facts from various customers over the past couple of days, we wanted a better understanding of the situation before posting a hasty reply. This is our prognosis thus far.


Although we are car enthusiasts at heart and like to go fast, safety has always and will continue to be our number one concern.
We have sold hundreds of brake lines to track and road enthusiasts nationwide but there have been recent incidents with hard use at the track which require our attention. There have been no incidents reported during use on the road.

Because we are concerned with safety, each and every brake line is pressure tested to 4000+ psi with fluid (not air) to ensure the utmost safety and carries approval from the D.O.T. This is 300% to 400% higher than pressure exerted inside the line under braking.

We are so confident in our designs that we always utilize what we produce and this product is no exception. Our WORKS race car which just won class at Time Attack and our shop MR runs these same off-the-shelf TKS brake lines as well as all of our personal EVOs for years which makes 6 total. We have not seen any sign of fatigue or failure with any of our cars (although most of us are running the Mitsubishi brake guides). *As a side note, this issue has not occurred to any vehicles running the Mitsubishi brake guides or other brake cooling devices.
To explore any heat related issue, we are implementing a new testing procedure which includes heating the testing environment to simulate track usage.

Although we believe these incidents are isolated, there are several things you can do to help prevent an undesirable brake situation:

1) Implement a brake cooling device to help prevent the heat from building up in your calipers such as the Mitsubishi brake guides and trim the plastic undertray per the Mitsubishi instructions.

2) Please have the lines properly installed by an Authorized WORKS Dealer. As simple as they seem, there is some indication that a line failure was due to installation error. For instance, adding any type of locking or restriction device (i.e. zip tie) in the wrong location may prevent the line from moving freely in either direction through the intermediate sleeve. In fact, many track EVOs have the intermediate sleeve disconnected as a result of brake lines pulling out of their fittings among all different brands.

3) Please use a very high-grade brake fluid such as “Motul RBF 600” to prevent the brake fluid from boiling. This can degrade any brake line very quickly. *As another side note, the brake line issue we are addressing has not occurred with any EVO while using “Motul RBF 600”.

It seems like another concern is with the outer blue jacket. Although this coating prevents particles from embedding into the stainless steel braid, this is not a functional part of the line and may deform under excessive heat. There is no direct correlation with jacket deformation and line failures. As stated in our installation instructions,
“*The blue protective coating on these lines may degrade over time depending on temperature and flex. This will not affect their performance or functionality.”

As a manufacturer we have an obligation to provide the safest product possible. With the holidays and winter upon us, this will give us ample time to test and ensure we have a safe and superior product.
Meanwhile, for those running our brake lines at the track between now and the end of the year (especially without any brake cooling), please contact us for further information. You can call us at 415.641.WORKS (9675) or email [email protected].

earlyapex
11-24-2005, 12:22 AM
Please tell me this isn't the only response we're going to get. :(

You mean the one where it states it's all the brake line owners faults and not WORKS?

:oops:

hagakure
11-24-2005, 08:05 AM
Please tell me this isn't the only response we're going to get. :(

You mean the one where it states it's all the brake line owners faults and not WORKS?

:oops:


Guys, they are NOT going to admit any culpability whatsoever. It is not reasonable to expect them to do so. The appropriate response would have been to simply make it right for all concerned who track their cars, immediately, by offering to purchase stoptech or other lines. then the response should have been to at least let everyone know that they were working with the manufacturer to accept responsibility. this may be beyond their control, but they should have let the consumer in on the process. the nauture of their response is a SERIOUS business error, that would have been compounded, if they had not done the careful building of community around the fact that they are all, indeed, very nice guys. In this fact (their amicablecorporate and personal personalities) has somehow become a cloud to the nature of the real issue. this has worked as a marketing strategy for them since day one. IT's been effective, because it's true, they are friendly and personable. It's even served to take some heat away from the fact that their tunes, while safe, are pretty sadly lacking in power for what you pay for an overall package.....but, that's business. I for one will take their temporary fix, then work on rectifyingthe issue on my own, as I don't see any benefit in beating my head against a wall over this.

vtluu
11-24-2005, 11:50 AM
It's worth noting that most high-performance aftermarket parts--the StopTech brake lines I put on the car yesterday, for instance--come with a pretty big "CYA" warranty disclaimer, something alongs the lines of "Racing is dangerous. Parts can fail. If you install our parts and then crash and die, it's not our fault." (It's interesting which parts come with this same disclaimer prominently printed on the product itself: all my safety equipment: harnesses, driving suit, gloves, shoes, helmet.) I don't recall WORKS having the same disclaimer and I think if they don't, they definitely should. Why? I think it would free them to be a bit more forthcoming about product defects such as this.

We create pretty extreme conditions, "push the envelope" if you want to use the cliche, when we track our cars. As such, parts and equipment can fail in an unexpected manner. Some people seem surprised how nonchalant I am about a brake line failure. "You could have died" they keep saying. While that's true, a hundred other things could go wrong on a given day at the track, and there are plenty of mistakes I could make (and a few that I do) that have potentially disastrous consequences. Open tracking has its inherent risks; you do your best to ensure reliability and safety, and the rest is up to luck. If I wanted a safe hobby I would have taken up knitting.

My point is I don't think any less of WORKS for engineering a product that, as it turns out, can fail under a set of compounded and extreme conditions. The true test of them as a vendor is in how they handle the matter.

hagakure
11-24-2005, 12:23 PM
It's worth noting that most high-performance aftermarket parts--the StopTech brake lines I put on the car yesterday, for instance--come with a pretty big "CYA" warranty disclaimer, something alongs the lines of "Racing is dangerous. Parts can fail. If you install our parts and then crash and die, it's not our fault." (It's interesting which parts come with this same disclaimer prominently printed on the product itself: all my safety equipment: harnesses, driving suit, gloves, shoes, helmet.) I don't recall WORKS having the same disclaimer and I think if they don't, they definitely should. Why? I think it would free them to be a bit more forthcoming about product defects such as this.

We create pretty extreme conditions, "push the envelope" if you want to use the cliche, when we track our cars. As such, parts and equipment can fail in an unexpected manner. Some people seem surprised how nonchalant I am about a brake line failure. "You could have died" they keep saying. While that's true, a hundred other things could go wrong on a given day at the track, and there are plenty of mistakes I could make (and a few that I do) that have potentially disastrous consequences. Open tracking has its inherent risks; you do your best to ensure reliability and safety, and the rest is up to luck. If I wanted a safe hobby I would have taken up knitting.

My point is I don't think any less of WORKS for engineering a product that, as it turns out, can fail under a set of compounded and extreme conditions. The true test of them as a vendor is in how they handle the matter.


Amen. Exactly.

KakimotoEVO
11-24-2005, 07:21 PM
If I wanted a safe hobby I would have taken up knitting.


I don't know about that Tam.... those long sharp things look pretty dangerous to me.... :lol:

-Adrian

Evo442
11-27-2005, 07:47 AM
I called Stasis engineering a week ago and asked about 2-pc replacement rotors for the Evo. They told me that they won't be making them anymore because the design of the stock rotor setup can't dissapate heat sufficiently. In short, the surface area of the hat isn't big enough relative to the surface area of the rotor. They did say they will be offering a $$$ 6piston setup soon.

Can you tell us any more about what was happening with the rotor hats?

cokofellah
11-27-2005, 11:56 AM
If I wanted a safe hobby I would have taken up knitting.
.

I was one of those who believed that something broke in AYRTON SENNA's car - that it was not due to driver error.
The Williams team, Adrian Newey were accused of manslaughter...and at the end of the day, it basically boiled down to - "THAT'S RACING".

Of course, saftey precautions were established. Hence, the tethers on the wheels, steering coluimns made of....etc, etc.

For those of you "drive" your car around racetracks, do whatever it takes to protect your noggin'...get brake ducts, a full-cage, HANS device, exercise, be mentally prepared, etc.

Something will go wrong one day - either mechanical, or driver error....pointing fingers will do nothing....really

hagakure
11-27-2005, 12:06 PM
If I wanted a safe hobby I would have taken up knitting.
.

I was one of those who believed that something broke in AYRTON SENNA's car - that it was not due to driver error.
The Williams team, Adrian Newey were accused of manslaughter...and at the end of the day, it basically boiled down to - "THAT'S RACING".

Of course, saftey precautions were established. Hence, the tethers on the wheels, steering coluimns made of....etc, etc.

For those of you "drive" your car around racetracks, do whatever it takes to protect your noggin'...get brake ducts, a full-cage, HANS device, exercise, be mentally prepared, etc.

Something will go wrong one day - either mechanical, or driver error....pointing fingers will do nothing....really


I think we are confusing two issues here. There is the issue of safety, taking precautions, preparing oneself and your car as carefully as possible. then there is the issue of a busines taking a stand regarding the utility of a product, it's inherent risks, etc. Especially as concerns a product that has failed three times in a similar mode of use within a relatively short period of time. I don't consider myself pointing fingers, nor do I consider myself a whiner, but I continue to be dissapointed in the manner in which works is handling this situation thus far. That's racing does not cut it for me.


Percy

earlyapex
11-27-2005, 12:11 PM
For those of you "drive" your car around racetracks, do whatever it takes to protect your noggin'...get brake ducts, a full-cage, HANS device, exercise, be mentally prepared, etc.

Something will go wrong one day - either mechanical, or driver error....pointing fingers will do nothing....really

Totally agree. I finally had a moment of realization at the Reno event last month when I was hitting the esses at around 120mph with no braking. I did that for one session, then told myself:

A. I'm ready for a rollbar and a racing seat
B. I'm braking for the esses for the rest of the day

Also, almost every time I do a track event, at the end of every straight, "are my brakes going to work when I stomp at them" comes into my mind almost every time. I actually do small brake checks before the braking zone, not that .2565 seconds extra is going to help me but it is a real fear in my head. I personally think a $1800 Stoptech BBK kit is worth it for how many track events I have been doing in the last 2 years.

So now I gotta figure out when I am gonna plunk down the $4,000 I need for upgraded brakes, a rollbar, and a proper seat. :shock:

earlyapex
11-29-2005, 02:20 PM
So anyone with this problem get it taken care of yet ?

warpspeed
11-29-2005, 03:12 PM
... the fact that their tunes, while safe, are pretty sadly lacking in power for what you pay for an overall package.

That is so true. But back to the brakes situation. From what I see with certain Works products, they don't actually produce/make them. They are made by another company and pay a certain amount to put their name on the product. They are probably talking to them right now about the problem and will eventually take care of the problem.

vtluu
11-29-2005, 03:46 PM
That is so true. But back to the brakes situation. From what I see with certain Works products, they don't actually produce/make them. They are made by another company and pay a certain amount to put their name on the product. They are probably talking to them right now about the problem and will eventually take care of the problem.
"Eventually taking care of the problem" is one thing, but it's not exactly appropriate for the people still going to the track with the WORKS brake lines completely unaware of this potential problem. I don't expect them to fix the problem right away, but I do expect them to alert their customers immediately about this, and other than the posting here, I've seen no other evidence of any effort to this effect--no postings to EvoM, no updates to the WORKS website... I mean heck you can still buy the WORKS brake lines on the site.

So far, their failure to "step up" have left me unimpressed. Are they hoping this problem will just quietly go away? I mean, what's the alternative--wait and hope that nobody else has a failure and gets hurt as a result?

warpspeed
11-29-2005, 11:27 PM
Ya. It seems like Works are taking their time to answer the problem. But here is an example of them not making their product.

Example their new tower brace:

Works: http://www.worksevo.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=266


APR: http://www.aprperformance.com/proddesc.php?catID=7&subcatID=21&productcategoryID=65
and cheaper.

earlyapex
11-29-2005, 11:41 PM
Ya. It seems like Works are taking their time to answer the problem. But here is an example of them not making their product.


Yea but they still sell it with their logo and as their "product".

Like when a crack dealer sells crack and somebody dies from it: "well shizzle, I didn't make the kazy shaz, I just sold it to da guy!"

Matz
11-30-2005, 12:48 AM
Ya. It seems like Works are taking their time to answer the problem. But here is an example of them not making their product.

Example their new tower brace:

Works: http://www.worksevo.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=266
APR: http://www.aprperformance.com/proddesc.php?catID=7&subcatID=21&productcategoryID=65
and cheaper.

Not the tower brace example again! I don't know which product was actually designed first, but although they look similar, they aren't identical. Don't shoot the messenger!!! <duck> <duck>

vtluu
11-30-2005, 04:52 AM
WORKS doesn't build any of their own products, but that's nothing out of the ordinary. Many/most companies use contract manufacturing nowadays--everything from NVIDIA getting its GeForce chips made by TSMC in Taiwan, to Toyota getting its Tacoma trucks built by NUMMI in Fremont. The point is that the products are made according to WORKS's design and specifications, and the onus is on them to make sure that the manufactured products satisfy their quality requirements. That's assuming the problem at hand is in the manufacturing; to me, it seems more like a design flaw.

dohcvtec
11-30-2005, 10:24 AM
Or just take someone elses design, put their name on it, and charge more for it :shock:

hagakure
11-30-2005, 10:48 AM
Or just take someone elses design, put their name on it, and charge more for it :shock:


Like the RacingBrake front rotors that they sell as WRP rotors and charge 100.00 more for....You are better off going directly to RB for these.

Percy

earlyapex
11-30-2005, 11:20 AM
WORKS whores bagging on WORKS?

What is the world coming to? Cats and dogs living together! Frogs falling from the skies!!!

AHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! The locusts are coming!!!

hagakure
11-30-2005, 11:28 AM
WORKS whores bagging on WORKS?

What is the world coming to? Cats and dogs living together! Frogs falling from the skies!!!

AHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! The locusts are coming!!!

I'm a works whore no more. I'll continue to purchase from them as I see fit, but they are no longer my first and primry choice. There is a lot of competition in the Evo aftermarket, and I intend to make full use of it. Nothing against works, I just need to broaden my horizons.


Percy

methods4
11-30-2005, 11:39 AM
Or just take someone elses design, put their name on it, and charge more for it :shock:

Oops, I'm late to this WORKS appreciation party thread.

"WORKS engineers the highest-quality performance enhancements for Mitsubishi vehicles."

dohcvtechz, they would never do that. All of their products are super duper engineered, that is why you pay the premium price to have their name on the parts you buy. Didn't you ever see the APR strut tower thread? Or Tomei BOV thread? Or the RB 2pc rotor thread? Oh wait, my posts got deleted from that one because I called them out on it. They even used the same pictures off of RB's website and just flipped them so they wouldn't be completely identical. I feel bad for the suckers that are paying that extra money to buy from WORKS when they can get the EXACT same product from somewhere else.

And about these brake lines. This is ridiculous. They have multiple cases of these lines failing and all they can really say is you need better fluid and brake ducting??? I don't understand why they fail to see the importance of this problem. Tam, you say that racing is a dangerous sport and you could die anyways. I feel better knowing there is MUCH less chance of me dying when in a braking zone. You on the other hand, have to think about these piece of shit lines failing and sending you into an end over end flip at the end of any front straight. As a friend, please take these lines off before your next event.

"EACH and EVERY line is fluid Pressure tested to 4000 psi and DOT approved because safety in your braking system should not be compromised. "


And finally, I am glad that *some* people are beginning to see past their marketing hype. Just because it costs more does not mean it's better, people.

vtluu
11-30-2005, 11:54 AM
Please stay on topic, Tony (and others). If you want to bitch about WORKS or anybody else, please start your own thread. Otherwise please keep criticism relevant to the problem at hand.

methods4
11-30-2005, 11:59 AM
Please stay on topic, Tony (and others). If you want to bitch about WORKS or anybody else, please start your own thread. Otherwise please keep criticism relevant to the problem at hand.

Oops, sorry about the rant. This post will be more on-topic.

This is ridiculous. They have multiple cases of these lines failing and all they can really say is you need better fluid and brake ducting??? I don't understand why they fail to see the importance of this problem. Tam, you say that racing is a dangerous sport and you could die anyways. I feel better knowing there is MUCH less chance of me dying when in a braking zone. You on the other hand, have to think about these piece of shit lines failing and sending you into an end over end flip at the end of any front straight. As a friend, please take these lines off before your next event.

"EACH and EVERY line is fluid Pressure tested to 4000 psi and DOT approved because safety in your braking system should not be compromised. "

vtluu
11-30-2005, 12:02 PM
We heard you the first time 'round. For what it's worth, I agree.


As a friend, please take these lines off before your next event.
I ordered and installed the StopTech lines as soon as I got back from TH. (Actually I ordered them the Saturday night when I was at the hotel. ;))

hagakure
11-30-2005, 02:09 PM
Please stay on topic, Tony (and others). If you want to bitch about WORKS or anybody else, please start your own thread. Otherwise please keep criticism relevant to the problem at hand.


I'm sorry to disagree with you Tam. I think everything we are talking about is EXTREMELY relevant tot he issue at hand. But int he interest of peace, I will refrain from "bitching" about anything other than the brake lines in this thread.

Percy

WORKS Engineering
12-01-2005, 01:30 PM
We are still working around the clock to understand a potential brake line issue and have even put our 2.4L Supercharger Kit on hold to get to the bottom of this.

Much time has been invested between our supplier and ourselves in this investigation with countless hours researching front-end vehicle dynamics and sacrificing over 50 brake lines under destructive testing.

As we continue to conduct or investigation, your feedback is very important. For those track customers who received our questions or questionnaire and have yet to respond, please do so as it will aid this investigation and benefit the EVO community. This data may point to a simple production lot issue as we recently discovered that some WORKS customers with TKS brake line kits have endured over 20+ track days. *Remember that our original WORKS race car went through two seasons of heavy rally and track usage with multiple drivers (different braking styles).

As the EVO is a relatively heavy vehicle with significant front-end weight bias, we still recommend the following for those EVOs going to the track:
1. Utilization of a brake cooling device
2. Installation by an Authorized WORKS Dealer (we have seen some lines installed with significant twisted pre-load which will encourage any line to twist out of a fitting)
3. Using the best brake fluid you can afford

After all the research is done and we have come to a conclusion, the proper steps will be taken to ensure each and every WORKS EVO enthusiast (including ourselves) has a safe set of TKS brake lines.
Until further notice we have suspended the sale of these lines.

Again, if you plan on participating in a track event in the near future, please contact us to discuss your individual situation at 415.641.WORKS (9675) or email us at [email protected].

methods4
12-01-2005, 02:18 PM
Until further notice we have suspended the sale of these lines.

http://www.picpop.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10446/applause.gif

earlyapex
12-01-2005, 02:28 PM
WORKS, you might want to post on evom.net and socalevo.net since alot of the guys there had no idea of these failures.

Oh wait, that might be bad for you, plus the guys that have had them failed have posted there already. :oops:

vtluu
12-01-2005, 03:20 PM
Good to hear WORKS is giving this matter the attention it deserves. Posting on EvoM would be a good idea...

ovenmit331
01-10-2006, 02:35 PM
any updates on this?

methods4
01-10-2006, 08:37 PM
I'm curious as well. Has anyone died yet?

Matz
01-10-2006, 10:25 PM
any updates on this?

+1

it's a shame that in the auto industry companies aren't very good about tracking assembly processes. When i worked at IBM, if a hard disk failed, we could get any piece of information about it, down to what operator was running the assembly line that produced the failed part. Sure would give me a little piece of mind knowing that the WORKS lines in my Evo aren't from the same faulty batch (if that's really what the issue is).

Personally, I'd like to get store credit in exchange for the lines off of my car, but regardless, I'm taking them off and replacing them with Stoptech lines before I hit the track again.

JanSolo
01-10-2006, 11:54 PM
When i worked at IBM, if a hard disk failed, we could get any piece of information about it, down to what operator was running the assembly line that produced the failed part.

Yep, they figured out what was wrong with the drives and then moved them from the OEMs to the consumer market. Ahhhh not so fond memories of the IBM Deathstars.

Matz
01-11-2006, 12:43 AM
When i worked at IBM, if a hard disk failed, we could get any piece of information about it, down to what operator was running the assembly line that produced the failed part.

Yep, they figured out what was wrong with the drives and then moved them from the OEMs to the consumer market. Ahhhh not so fond memories of the IBM Deathstars.

That was on the 75GXP, and years after I worked there. :) Of course, everything is made by hand now, and not with the automation my team was designing. :? Anyhow, the point was just that there was at least a trail from a complete product to its components. So maybe if a drive in lots 1 and 2 fail, they can see that it was due to a faulty HGA from a certain batch, and on that day JanSolo happened to be manning the machine, and it was after a night of brutal drinking, etc etc.

dohcvtec
01-11-2006, 10:09 AM
I guess marketing companies, IE Works, do not have the ingenuity to discover the real problem since they do not manufacture them.

Matz
01-11-2006, 10:19 AM
I guess marketing companies, IE Works, do not have the ingenuity to discover the real problem since they do not manufacture them.

It's up to the manufacturer to deal with this kind of stuff, not the companies that resell the products. However, it's also up to the resellers to inquire about a manufacturer's processes.