White rabbit Vs my stock turbo car?

[earlyapex]

Just because I was curious, I overlayed my dyno graph from my 05 evo MR (same car) onto a White rabbit graph.

Same dyno (mustang), same place (gruppe-s), different days. Since these dynos are different days, etc, this is just for comparison and because I was curious, nothing more.

What really makes me curious, is the White Rabbit car also has a standalone AND HKS cams over what my car has:

My car:
Fuel Pump
SAFC2
MBC (1.4bar)
Turboback, no cat
720cc injectors

White Rabbit car:
3" turboback
White Rabbit turbo
AEM EMS standalone
HKS 280 cams
ADJ Cam Sprockets
MBC (1.4bar)

White rabbit numbers and graph are in dark red, my numbers are in black and my graph is the faint green and blue overlay:

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/dyno/wr_vs_stock_dyno.gif

Very interesting...

[SouthernCrane]

Bryan, do you know who tuned the other car? What happened to the TQ with the 280's? :?

[Evo442]

yeah. would have expected more out of aem ems+cams+WR on an 05 MR. were they done with the tuning on the WR?

[evo_dadi]

from what i heard :wink: the guy who owns it is making a new map for it still so theres more tuning to be done.and the guy apparently is more knowledgable with autronic and motec but wanted to try out aem since majority of evo owners who are picking up standalones are choosing aem.

[wilson1]

Bryan, do you know who tuned the other car? What happened to the TQ with the 280's? :?

Yeah, he's my good buddy. 8)

[wilson1]

looking over at the dyno, the WR has at least 20 Hp gain over the stock turbo @5800rpm, and in excess of 30 hp over 6200 rpm which is not bad considering the WR would benefit even more from higher boost.
The Hks280's definitely shifted the torque curve over to the higher rpms.

[earlyapex]

yea the WR for sure holds the TQ and HP curve more than my car.

but the overall torque seems really low for that turbo + cams + EMS.

That's what I thought was really interesting, since I have seen cars with stock turbo + 272's dyno at least 280tq on that same dyno

[EFIxMR]

Hey everyone,

The car in question is mine, and I just thought I should give some background information, so you guys aren't just looking at some dyno numbers.

First and formost this was the first time I operated a Mustang dyno on my own, so I am still getting accustomed to it. Normally, I tune on Dynapaks and Dynojets, so I am more familiar with those dyno's software.

My intention of this dyno session wasn't to make big numbers in order to impress anyone. It was more just to get the feel of the AEM software, and to get my car to the point where I could drive around on the AEM on a daily basis.

The main thing is that the tune you're seeing is hardly optimized. before boost my a/f is 11 to 1. Secondly, I'm still running the stock MAF. With the AEM basemap in my car, it barely ran... So, a majority of this session was just about getting the car to run.

So, the next question you're probably asking is... why leave it at 11 to 1 below boost? Well, it's simple economics... Time is money on the dyno... I know I can trim those areas out on my own street tuning with my wideband. I'd rather tune the high speed areas of the graph with my dyno time, as it is much more dangerous to reproduce those conditions on the street.

Despite what you see on EVOm about the 280 cams... they lose power compared to the 264's, 272's and mix and match combos down low.

Is there more power in this setup? Yes. Undoubtly. Would I like to blow my motor to find its limit? No.

I'd much rather perfer to do multiple dyno sessions than to try and find the limit of my engine in one session. That way I can drive around on the street, take it to the race track fine tune it a bit, check my plugs and verify that everything is safe, and then go back to the dyno to find more power.

When I crossed the 300 whp mark, I was already satisfied with my preliminary session as I know how hard it is to get that far on the gruppe-s mustang dyno on a stockish turbo.

rest assured i'm already thinking of what to do next.

Thanks, Andy

[Evo442]

rest assured i'm already thinking of what to do next.

Thanks, Andy

Andy - thanks for the input. sounds like there's definitely more power to extract out of your setup. Please keep us posted as you make some progress. Like many people out there, i'm very interested in this turbo as my next major power mod...

[evo_dadi]

definitely gonna keep an eye on this since im getting kinda interested with the hks 280 cams also :wink: :twisted:

[SouthernCrane]

Andy - thanks for the input. sounds like there's definitely more power to extract out of your setup. Please keep us posted as you make some progress....

+1

[Dr. Evo]

So, basically, the comparison here is worthless. Comparing a stock turbo car with basic mods to a WR turbo car that is not tuned properly :D .

[earlyapex]

Why the heck would you even post the WR graphs then?

btw, I know there is much more potential in the WR, I just have to look at evo_dadi's dyno results.

[earlyapex]

So, basically, the comparison here is worthless. Comparing a stock turbo car with basic mods to a WR turbo car that is not tuned properly :D .


...this is just for comparison and because I was curious, nothing more.

[bdking57]

If you had 264 cams you would be making more tq then he is.. I make more then that and I have an 03 with the tiny hotside.. that seems really low considering its tuned with an AEM EMS.. um lets see, that car maybe cost 5K more then what I have in mods yet less tq and under 30 whp more... I think I would just spend the money on nice wheels or something. The WR definately has to have more potential.. but I thought with the AEM EMS it was going to yield 315+whp at least..plus cals car made more then that on the stock turbo too with safcII? :?

just saw andy's post nevermind.. good luck with the MAF removal, I guess this cars gonna be making some nice power. I would be intrested to see the final results.




yea the WR for sure holds the TQ and HP curve more than my car.

but the overall torque seems really low for that turbo + cams + EMS.

That's what I thought was really interesting, since I have seen cars with stock turbo + 272's dyno at least 280tq on that same dyno

[EFIxMR]

So, basically, the comparison here is worthless. Comparing a stock turbo car with basic mods to a WR turbo car that is not tuned properly :D .

i wouldn't say my car isn't tuned properly, more that its not fully tuned.
at this point, i still need to be very methodical in tuning my car. it's not just about turning up the boost and dialing in the timing and a/f to make X amount of hp on the dyno.

its about getting the car to the point where it can drive safely on the street, so i can tune to the knock sensor, the partial throttle, throttle response, fuel economy, ect.

essentially laying down the foundation for a safe but powerful tune. AEM is a complicated device, and needless to say it requires an amount of development time beyond the typical piggyback.

Honestly, I don't think these numbers are that bad. At the gruppe-s dyno meet, how many EVO's really cracked the 300 whp mark?

There is a certain bit of arbitrariness to the information thats been presented here. I have multiple runs that are over 300 whp from this session with peak boost ranging from boost as low as 20 psi to as high as 25 psi, but all with a significant amount of boost taper.

[Dr. Evo]

That's basically what I meant, not tuned to the optimum.

[earlyapex]

Why the heck would you even post the WR graphs then?

Again, why would you post these graphs if you are still tuning it?

Are you saying my tune is unsafe? It's seen 3 track events, over 200 on-track miles each, and approx 8k street miles so far.

How about this...

I'll make 300whp or over on that dyno on 91, without a turbo upgrade and without a AEM EMS, on a safe tune, and my torque will be over 260wtq. Want to start that bet? Up for some Friendly(tm) tuning challenge?

[vtluu]

In another thread (http://www.norcalevo.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5911), you said in response to Gruppe-S's comparative posting of two dyno sheets:


same mustang dynos?

if not, useless.

Too bad one has EMS and one has ECUtek. double useless.
In light of that, how would you critique your own comparison of dyno sheets from two completely different setups?

[earlyapex]

In light of that, how would you critique your own comparison of dyno sheets from two completely different setups?

go read all the posts?


So, basically, the comparison here is worthless. Comparing a stock turbo car with basic mods to a WR turbo car that is not tuned properly :D .


...this is just for comparison and because I was curious, nothing more.


Up for some Friendly(tm) tuning challenge?

[EFIxMR]

Hey, I'm not the one who posted these up on EVOm, and I only posted them up on my own website after they were publicised.

There's really no reason to get all huffy and puffy with me. I don't know anything about your setup, and I never said it wasn't safe.

If you think making 300 whp is such a big deal rock on.

my EVO is my fun car... daily driver... if you want to talk whp tuning competition...

These are my credentials...

Coleman Lau Honda Del Sol 10.4 @ 140 580 whp

Mike Wong Honda Civic 10.9 @ 139 500 whp

Norman Tong Honda Civic 10.7 @ 130 395 whp (bone stock motor turbocharged)

My own Honda Civic 11.1 @ 134 600 whp

Force Fed EVO 405 whp gruppe-s mustang

Rcrew Racing ek 232 whp k series all motor 91 octane

Top Setup EG (Hotverison jdm video) second place

The list really goes on and on... I don't do this for fun, I do this for a job.

[earlyapex]

I know what your creds are.

I said friendly tuning.

Pushing ourselves. I do this for fun.

[EFIxMR]

ok, i apologize if i've been needlessly defensive.

there's some somethings that I believe are misconceptions about the aem being thrown around here. I have no doubt that you can reach 300 whp on the AFC and 720's. I mean what is there to doubt, when I know Mike has already made that much on Cal's evo with the AFC.

with the aem running still running on the stock MAF what inherent advantage would the aem have against the AFC / 720's in terms of making peak hp and peak tq? There really are none when we are talking about pump gas hp levels. It comes down to a/f ratio and timing. if you can deliver the appropriate amount for the corresponding boost the hp will fall in line. be that as a result of an AFC or AEM.

with either device the real limiting factor is octane. be that WR turbo, stock turbo, camshaft selection or efi selection.

300 whp @ gruppe-s as i understand it is a performance benchmark for a stockish turboed EVO. maybe there exists a higher limit on 91 octane, but my opinion is that the risk to find that limit isn't necessarily worth it.

What is the difference between 330 whp and 300 whp on the street? I know for a fact that I am too old to street race. How important is it really for that last 30 whp? How many of us can really afford to blow their engine? That is essentially what you're risking when you push your engine to the limit on pump gas.

There is a reason why most cars at the EVO dyno meet didn't cross the 300 mark. And its not necessarily because whoever tuned it doesn't know how to tune or that people didn't spend enough money. Fact is... EVO engines are expensive, and for many of you if your engine blows it be a severe financial burden.

That's why when people ask me for advice, I tell them that if you're going to the track be the drag, HPDE, or whatever... Run high octane. It's really not worth the risk otherwise.

On the Force Fed EVO we were running time attack events all day @ 405 whp on C16 and 30 psi of boost on the stock bottom end without a single failure. Keep in mind that the Bozz EVO with a fully built 2.2 JDM super expensive engine makes 415 whp on the same dyno.

The bottom line is that all those people you're bragging to about pump gas numbers aren't going to be around to help you with repair bills when your engine is blown.

Not to say anythings going to happen to your engine earlyapex, just a word of advice to the Norcal community to not get so caught up in the number game.

[blitzkrgCT9A]

hehe.. actually 299.7whp on stock injectors.. :twisted: im surprised my car made that kind of power.. the stock injectors were close to full duty cycle and the a/f wasn't quite safe when that number was measured. My safest run was about 297whp. :)

Oh and actually, Mike didn't tune my car.. It was Dev who tuned it.. :lol: Mike was just there to supervise the dyno session ;)

[EFIxMR]

nice, when we have dinner together, I gotta give him props.

[earlyapex]

ok, i apologize if i've been needlessly defensive.

And I apologize if I came across as an asshole.

I agree with you on the 91 octane limit. That's why I said safe tune. I think maybe my challenge was more to myself than anyone else to get a 300whp stock turbo evo, on 91, on the gruppe-s dyno, on a safe tune that you can drive everyday. 8)

I totally agree with you that the EVO motors are $$$$$. Everyone wonders why I run straight 100 octane at open track events... because an extra $200-250 each event is cheaper than a new motor, plus the car loves it, makes more power safer, and I don't have to worry about the car all day long.

I see alot of people throw tons of parts at EVOs without alot of knowledge, and then wonder why it's not making as much power as it should be. (I'm not talking about you right now.)

This is why I want to get as close to 300whp as possible to show that good power can be made, with good thinking, good parts selection, and good safe tuning. Does that mean that everyone should run max power on 91 octane with the stock turbo? No, but it can show what approach makes power, and they can learn from that.

[Gruppe-S]

Hey guys,

No reason to get all crazy about the numbers here. I posted up the dyno chart to let you guys know what each turbos are capable of. Both of these turbos are considered to be a good stock replacement for street/pump gas with min lag. If you want something that will make huge power…I would recommend you to look elsewhere like a GT3071.

The goal for tuning a street car is for reliability first and then power second. From my experience, I don’t believe any daily driver would sacrifices their motor for an extra 10-20whp.

Thanks,
Tom

[GST]

FWIW there has only been one stock turbo Evo break 300whp on the Gruppe-S and it was a 03 Evo (smaller hotside) running a AEM and no the tune was not street safe (the car left the dyno at 280whp). This is all on pump gas.

Mike

[EFIxMR]

i got some more goodies mike. im going to come back this time with the maf removed. time to turn the boost up and see how high this rabbit can jump!

[earlyapex]

i got some more goodies mike. im going to come back this time with the maf removed. time to turn the boost up and see how high this rabbit can jump!

Would love to see the outcome! Are you going to do 91 octane and race gas?

[EFIxMR]

i have to remap the car from scratch again since im going to be using the MAP sensor, so i might only have time for a racegas tune. however, i'll probably go back again with everything dialed down and make some pump gas pulls.

[earlyapex]

Cool, I'm still interested in the numbers.

I might be trying out something soon that's a little bit more robust than SAFC but still a piggyback... should be interesting.

ecu+