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View Full Version : Questions on Staggered Wheel sizing



bdking57
11-22-2005, 12:27 PM
I was looking through some old posts on evom after marshall mentioned he might be doing a staggered wheel setup.. found out the old BOZZ time attack evo used to run 17x9 up front and 17x8.5 in the rear with the 255/40s all the way around. Now, I was pretty sure that 17x9s with 255/40s should fit in the rear no problem.. but can you run 17x10 up front and 17x9 in the rear?... if you planned on staggering them anyway, couldnt you also do a real agressive staggered offset in the rear as well? I would imagine getting youself into a situation where you need to run different size tires front and rear would be bad because of the strain it would put on the diffs (unless you had the tires all shaved to the same diameter... and even then you would have no way to rotate the tires).

Only reason im asking all this is Im trying to plan out a nice setup for running RA1s next spring.. I hear the only downside to this tire at all is the sidewalls are not the stiffest, supposedly running the wider wheel up front will make the front sidewalls a little stiffer..therefore the front end would be more predictable/grippier.

vtluu
11-22-2005, 01:03 PM
Daddio ran this kind of setup at Nationals and it didn't do him any good, so...

Run as wide as you can, all around. If you need the rear end looser at a particular event or in a particular turn, there's all kinds of ways to accomplish that--sway bar setting, shock setting, tire pressure, trail-braking, etc. If you find out you need more rear grip and you chose too-skinny rear tires, there's really no way to get it back (short of putting on wider tires of course). It's better to have more grip than not enough.

earlyapex
11-22-2005, 01:10 PM
255/40/17 RA1's on a 17x9 will be fine and won't flex.

I ran 255/40/17 RA1's on my stock 17x8 and it flexed a bit but it the grip more than made up for it.

I am currently running 255/40/17 street tires on 17x9 +35 and they fit with no rubbing whatsoever in the rear and I am pretty low back there.

I am moving to 275/40/17 RA1's and will have to roll the rear fenders.

Staggered setups are generally a PITA for the reasons you said, you can't rotate the tires for wear, etc etc etc.

Juz say no to JDM hype.

redvolution
11-22-2005, 01:33 PM
what wheels are those 17x9 +35?

earlyapex
11-22-2005, 01:44 PM
what wheels are those 17x9 +35?

5zigen FN10RC

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/albums/cruise10_15_05/cruise09.jpg

warpspeed
11-22-2005, 02:24 PM
For the track, alot of teams run staggered set up. But for normal/daily driving the only downfall I see is that you cannot rotate them.

bdking57
11-22-2005, 03:33 PM
good input, well for my wheels i was trying to decide between some FN10RCs or the TDR pro race 1.2s. I can get the TDRs in a 17x9s fitment.. they weight almost 21 lbs, but Im pretty sure its a much stronger wheel (they are a little under 1K for the set in this size).

The big turn off on the TDRs is the fact that TDR usa hasnt been helpful in answering any offset questions. He said they sold one set to an evo owner and they were a +28 offset... Isnt that kind of weak? He said he has a dealer in town and I should go talk to them but Im not sure if they are gonna be able to figure out the the most aggressive offset or what (+33?)... the other thing is that im looking at febuary before they arrive from the UK :? upside would be I would have the only 17x9 bronze TDR wheels on an evo :lol: + I have a pair of fq400 center caps reserved

ZK
11-22-2005, 03:52 PM
A lot of the Japanese track cars run the staggered set ups with lower offset in front and higher offset in rear. This is a common front wheel drive set up so the car is more neutral when cornering as it has less rear grip.

But for something you drive every day, staggered is rather costly and you end up replacing tires 2 at a time.

And for offset, the lower the #, the more aggressive it is. So +25 sticks out the fender more than a +35.

Or you can follow the rules the Japanese guys follow where you find a wheel you like and modify the car to fit the wheel. ;)

bdking57
11-22-2005, 03:55 PM
hmm.. I guess i dont really understand the whole offset thing.. I wanted them to curve inward so the outside of the rim is pushed out.. so you saying +28 would have a real sunk in look? I guess my best bet would be to email TDR in the UK as im sure they have experience with these wheels on the evo.. Im pretty set on running the 255/40/17 RA1s since ill be able to at least drive with them on the street when needed.

ZK
11-22-2005, 04:05 PM
hmm.. I guess i dont really understand the whole offset thing.. I wanted them to curve inward so the outside of the rim is pushed out.. so you saying +28 would have a real sunk in look? I guess my best bet would be to email TDR in the UK as im sure they have experience with these wheels on the evo.

Here's an example

High offset normal spokes
http://www.yokohamatire.jp/yrc/japan/wheel/brand/advan_rg/image/de_car_01.jpg

Low offset concave spokes
http://www.yokohamatire.jp/yrc/japan/wheel/brand/advan_rg/image/de_car_02.jpg

If you want the more aggressive look, you want lower offset #. Of course your wheel may have an argument with your fender. :lol: A lot of the Japanese car's fenders are rolled/shaved/pulled to allow for the larger wheels.

earlyapex
11-22-2005, 04:53 PM
hmm.. I guess i dont really understand the whole offset thing.. I wanted them to curve inward so the outside of the rim is pushed out.. so you saying +28 would have a real sunk in look? I guess my best bet would be to email TDR in the UK as im sure they have experience with these wheels on the evo.. Im pretty set on running the 255/40/17 RA1s since ill be able to at least drive with them on the street when needed.

I can pretty much tell you a +28 offset 17x9 with 255's will for sure not clear the rear fenders without rolling them. My +35 17x9's just barely clear on full suspension compression.

You also might not even to get 275's to clear rolled fenders with that offset if you ever wanted to move to 275's, which you should if you are gonna run 17x9's for a wider tire.

the smaller offset pushes the outside part of the wheel out from the hub, which is why spokes are bent in more on lower offset wheels, but it also means your tires get to have more fun with you fenders.

bdking57
11-22-2005, 04:53 PM
Hmm.. well I posted the TDR question on lance register and hopefully someone has done it in the UK.. so basically +33 or +35 would be on the safe side? I didnt the spokes bent all that much since they are similiar in form to the BBS US MR wheels ... sorta :?

http://www.worldauto.com.cn/2005.2/xcxc/sanling-2.jpg

ZK
11-22-2005, 05:07 PM
Hmm.. well I posted the TDR question on lance register and hopefully someone has done it in the UK.. so basically +33 or +35 would be on the safe side? I didnt the spokes bent all that much since they are similiar in form to the BBS US MR wheels ... sorta :?



Bah, I say go for the lower offset and roll those fenders! It's not that big a deal and if done right you won't even notice it. If you don't want to roll get the +33 or +35.

http://evo.open-aerospace.org/install/suspension/p05.jpg
http://evo.open-aerospace.org/install/suspension/p07.jpg

earlyapex
11-22-2005, 05:37 PM
That evo is at stock height or close to it.

and showing robi hammering a customers fenders is probably not the best thing to show. haha

The trick to roll your fenders without paint cracking is tape the fenders with tape, then cut the paint in the middle of the lip with a razorblade so when you push the lip up the paint won't crack. Then touch up with paint. This is all done on the inside lip so you don't see any of it.


lower offsets are just going to give you more problems down the road unless you really really really want the bent spoke look. I could care less even though it does indeed look cool. The biggest thing you have to worry about in going wide wheels and wide tires is the lower control arm which can rub on the tire depending on what offset you have. A lower offset would pull the tire away from this control arm but closer to the fender lip.

It's all about balancing the specs to make both those things happy.

ZK
11-22-2005, 05:43 PM
That evo is at stock height or close to it.

and showing robi hammering a customers fenders is probably not the best thing to show. haha

The trick to roll your fenders without paint cracking is tape the fenders with tape, then cut the paint in the middle of the lip with a razorblade so when you push the lip up the paint won't crack. Then touch up with paint. This is all done on the inside lip so you don't see any of it.


My friend used to roll fenders at the shop he worked at. The way they did it was with the fender roller tool and a heat gun. You heat up the paint to make it softer, less likely to crack and then use the tool to make a uniform roll.

http://www.eastwoodco.com/images/us//local/products/detail/p16482.jpg

earlyapex
11-22-2005, 05:57 PM
My friend used to roll fenders at the shop he worked at. The way they did it was with the fender roller tool and a heat gun. You heat up the paint to make it softer, less likely to crack and then use the tool to make a uniform roll.


yea everyone has their own little trick, it's like making cherry pie, everyone does it a little different. :shock:

EVO GRIM
11-22-2005, 06:29 PM
So the idea is to run same size tire (275) but on 10" wide rims in front. Rotating is not an issue because its not a daily driver and tires arent going to last long. I think it will work but dont know how much fender massaging will be involved. Earlyapex do you have aim or yahoo?

earlyapex
11-22-2005, 06:38 PM
So the idea is to run same size tire (275) but on 10" wide rims in front. Rotating is not an issue because its not a daily driver and tires arent going to last long. I think it will work but dont know how much fender massaging will be involved. Earlyapex do you have aim or yahoo?

Once you start getting into wider than 9" wide wheels you have to also start worrying about strut clearance in the front. Is there a reason why you are going to be running 10" wide and not 9" wide?

yes, I have AIM. rlab603075

EVO GRIM
11-22-2005, 06:46 PM
Do you ever turn aim on?

EVO GRIM
11-22-2005, 06:50 PM
Well I got an offer of 4 17x9 and 4 17x9 bronze 5rzigen fno1rc's for my advan rims. So just makin sure it will work.

earlyapex
11-22-2005, 06:52 PM
Do you ever turn aim on?

Yes on all day. Oops I typed my name wrong above, it's: rlab63075

EVO GRIM
11-22-2005, 06:59 PM
Still not working. Aim me mmoranda

dohcvtec
11-22-2005, 07:04 PM
He's not on right now :P

EVO GRIM
11-24-2005, 10:04 AM
I talked to the guy and they are +25 offset. They clear the bremboes by 3/4-1". Only prob is going to be the fenders I think.

trinydex
11-24-2005, 11:51 AM
Daddio ran this kind of setup at Nationals and it didn't do him any good, so...

Run as wide as you can, all around. If you need the rear end looser at a particular event or in a particular turn, there's all kinds of ways to accomplish that--sway bar setting, shock setting, tire pressure, trail-braking, etc. If you find out you need more rear grip and you chose too-skinny rear tires, there's really no way to get it back (short of putting on wider tires of course). It's better to have more grip than not enough.

the staggered setup isn't about letting hte back end loose, it's the breakaway characteristic of the bulged tire in the rear that is beneficial... tottally driver preference, you actually get LESS GRIP, but the characteristic may be such that this is worth it for your particular application.

also you don't wanna run anything more than a half inch stagger and the point is the run the same tires all around.

EVO GRIM
11-26-2005, 09:12 PM
I'm confused. I just talked to earlyapex on aim and he said that a +25 rim will be more popped out than a +35 but everything I read says other wise.

http://www.driverstechnology.co.uk/images/wheel-offset-300.gif

Whats the consensus on +25 vs +35 offset?

earlyapex
11-26-2005, 10:26 PM
I'm confused. I just talked to earlyapex on aim and he said that a +25 rim will be more popped out than a +35 but everything I read says other wise.

Whats the consensus on +25 vs +35 offset?

here you go, this will help it make more sense, a handy dandy calculator:

http://www.1010tires.com/WheelOffsetCalculator.asp

says going from a 9" wide +35 to a 10" wide +25 will give you 3mm less inner clearance, and extend out 23mm more.

Just get the right offset and save the headaches man. :)

vtluu
11-27-2005, 01:32 AM
I'm confused. I just talked to earlyapex on aim and he said that a +25 rim will be more popped out than a +35 but everything I read says other wise.

http://www.driverstechnology.co.uk/images/wheel-offset-300.gif

Whats the consensus on +25 vs +35 offset?
Look at the diagram again (it's correct) and think carefully. A lower positive offset will mean the wheel will stick further out.

ZK
11-27-2005, 02:16 AM
The offset is the distance from the center of the wheel to the outermost edge. A zero offset will place the center hub at the center of the wheel and positive offset will move it outward.

vtluu
11-27-2005, 05:00 AM
The offset is the distance from the center of the wheel to the outermost edge. A zero offset will place the center hub at the center of the wheel and positive offset will move it outward.
The diagram Marshall posted is accurate. If you think about it, as the center hub moves outward (offset increases), the outside face of the wheel gets pushed inward when you put the wheel on the car.