My WR dyno

[Stormtrooper]

Hey guys,

I was all upset that I missed the dynoday at Gruppe-S this last weekend so I made a quick appointment for lunch time today.

Everything looks good except that its running leaner than I would like 5800 and above and actually pulled some timing around 6400. Too bad.... looks like if it kept going it might have gone to that tough 300whp threshhold.

This is my real current modlist... they actually just printed the info from my 03 evo....

Mods:
Works Drop in Filter
Works 269
Works valvetrain
Works "t1" ecu flash
Works 76mm dp
Works High flow cat
Works ABM Catback
GFB/Works BOV
Walbro 255 Fuel Pump
FP White Rabbit Turbo

This was on about 19-20psi of boost, and a mix of 91/100 octane to about 93-94 octane gas.


http://flash.atpinc.com/tempfiles/jeff_temp/gen_sml.jpg

http://flash.atpinc.com/tempfiles/jeff_temp/detail_sml.jpg

I'm going to have works richen it up a bit high end.

-Jeff

[wilson1]

is that what you will be running? 93-94?

[EFIxMR]

nice power

[vtluu]

Hmm. Did someone take a pull from the crack pipe when writing the "Comments" field on the dyno sheet? Doesn't match your mod list at all.

[earlyapex]

holy fugging lean. That aint lean on the top end, that is lean till 6800!

11.9 AFR?

Gaw damn. That thing must knock like a son of a bitch on the street. Richen that thing up and you will probably pick up some power and your trq will come closer to matching your HP, and not melt your motor.

[Stormtrooper]

they pulled up my file from my 03 evo and i guess just printed it that way. so thus the wrong car year and wrong mod list.

Yup, pretty lean, you can see exactly where the ecu is pulling timing and dumping in some gas... (luckily it is!) I'm going back to works to have them richen it up some. Until then I'll prob continue to run the mixture to 93-94 octane and just not push it.

-Jeff

[Lucky]

Nice #'s Jeff.

~Lucky

[EFIxMR]

norcalevos making power :twisted: woo hoo!

[ZK]

Nice #s Jeff!

[Cameron@xperformance]

cant wait to see it :twisted:

[Dr. Evo]

Is this with an 04 then, like the graph says? Nice numbers. Get it retuned and break that 300HP barrier!

[Stormtrooper]

Its a 05 GSR... yeah hopefully early next week Pete can help me sort that out...

[Gruppe-S]

Good thing you were running on 93-94ish octane. You might want to check the plugs if there was any detentation. Also, keep on using 100 octane until you get it richen up. 11.9 is realy lean on 91...you dont' wanna risk it.

Tom

[gbpkr]

I know this is raising this thread from the dead...but, did you every richen the car up? Would larger injectors help? I am not very good at tuning, but, I always thought that to make good use of a turbo upgrade, even a mild one, would'nt you want bigger injectors?

What are the stock sized injectors? 550's? I like the idea of a stealth upgrade and I think there is more in the turbo than people have been getting out of it. Forcedperformance makes killer products.

[wilson1]

What's the cost for all the mods?
Almost makes it worthwhile for evo 8 guys to trade in their evos for the evo 9's. :?

[MarkSAE]

What's the cost for all the mods?
Almost makes it worthwhile for evo 8 guys to trade in their evos for the evo 9's. :?

Heh.. after all the time I've spent modding my 8, I ain't trading it in for a few extra ponies! People seem to overlook the fact that handling and braking is still going to be the same between the 8 and 9.

[evo_dadi]

What's the cost for all the mods?
Almost makes it worthwhile for evo 8 guys to trade in their evos for the evo 9's. :?

Heh.. after all the time I've spent modding my 8, I ain't trading it in for a few extra ponies! People seem to overlook the fact that handling and braking is still going to be the same between the 8 and 9.

exactly just for a few ponies everybodies going crazy with the evo9.its not like everybody can even use the potentials of the evo :wink:

also i dont think eveybody cant afford evo's like wilson :wink: :P

[panem]

Nice #s Jeff!
+1

[gbpkr]

What's the cost for all the mods?
Almost makes it worthwhile for evo 8 guys to trade in their evos for the evo 9's. :?

And get raped by Mitsu on the trade in....no thanks. I still love my 8!!!! ...and you would still have to mod your 9 to hang with my 8!!!!

[earlyapex]

I know this is raising this thread from the dead...but, did you every richen the car up? Would larger injectors help? I am not very good at tuning, but, I always thought that to make good use of a turbo upgrade, even a mild one, would'nt you want bigger injectors?

What are the stock sized injectors? 550's? I like the idea of a stealth upgrade and I think there is more in the turbo than people have been getting out of it. Forcedperformance makes killer products.

You would think but I have yet to see a dynochart showing a huge difference like the forcedperformance guys showed before the WR's where for sale.

I kinda almost want to slap one on my car just to see if the damn turbo is all hype...

[wilson1]

What's the cost for all the mods?
Almost makes it worthwhile for evo 8 guys to trade in their evos for the evo 9's. :?

And get raped by Mitsu on the trade in....no thanks. I still love my 8!!!! ...and you would still have to mod your 9 to hang with my 8!!!!

Nothing that TBE and a tune wont fix, would be at 300 HP level, and with factory 10/100k warranty to boot! Obviously, not quite at the same power level as a bigger turbo upgrade. :D

[Matz]

I kinda almost want to slap one on my car just to see if the damn turbo is all hype...

doit. doit. doit. doit. doit.

[wilson1]

What's the cost for all the mods?
Almost makes it worthwhile for evo 8 guys to trade in their evos for the evo 9's. :?

Heh.. after all the time I've spent modding my 8, I ain't trading it in for a few extra ponies! People seem to overlook the fact that handling and braking is still going to be the same between the 8 and 9.

exactly just for a few ponies everybodies going crazy with the evo9.its not like everybody can even use the potentials of the evo :wink:

also i dont think eveybody cant afford evo's like wilson :wink: :P

If you re-read my quote

What's the cost for all the mods?
Almost makes it worthwhile for evo 8 guys to trade in their evos for the evo 9's. :?

,
This does not apply to everyone but for the 03, 04 guys , it makes more sense if they are ready to either drop serious money for mods or wanting to upgrade.
What i do mean is, for those who is sitting on the fence and does not want to upgrade their turbos and doing any serious engine upgrades, wanting just TBE and other minor mods, instead of upgrading to serious hardware, just strip off all their existing parts, return to stock, sell and trade it in , say 20-25k, depending on mileage, condition, etc, and pickup a newIX for 29,560 + tax.

If you add up the costs of a WR, 10.5, TME, or whatever that makes more power but spools liked stock, cams fuel pump.
turbo+ install= 2k
cams +install=1k
other associated power mods
totally 3k+


You want more traction? What about adding a quaiffe LSD?
For the 05's and later evos, it's benefits are apparent.
What about blacking out my lights?
My interior needs upgrading, hate the blue fabric.

Here are some more added benefits of the evo 9
1.Limited front LSD, ACD= over 1.5 k for equiv. quaiffe LSD
2.Upgraded interior, Gialla lookalike front
3.Updated front and rear lights =over 400+ for JDM blackouts
4.100k/10yr warranty
5.newer car, new tires,etc

All these easily totally way over $5k +, and that's my take. :wink:

[evo_dadi]

it still gonna be a financial suicide not unless somebody has bigger pockets to do it.not unless somebody doesnt mind also making more monthly payments :shock:

also ive spent less than average for my install since i installed some of my own parts and you gotta be crazy to pay $500 to get a turbo installed ;)

but this is my take on this turbo,03-04 are the ones thats really gonna benefit from it due to the bigger housing that it comes with and a redesigned wheel.its almost the same with going for a tme turbo upgrade but with the WR you still got more kick up top and it doesnt just start tapering like the tme and stock turbo.WR a hype? maybe but when compared to the newer turbo's its almost the same or maybe a tad lower but there are other things you can look at besides peak numbers.

[gbpkr]

But, after I trade in my 8 for a 9, do my minor mods, the 10 will come out . And it will be better. Then I'll have to peal the mods off of the 9 and throw myself at the mercy of the trade in guy all over again!! :cry:

[evo_dadi]

that too :lol:

[ZK]

I like my stock car. :)

[earlyapex]

you gotta be crazy to pay $500 to get a turbo installed ;)


Word to that.

[Matz]

you gotta be crazy to pay $500 to get a turbo installed ;)


Word to that.

I'd probably try to do a TME installation myself, but honestly, some of us haven't ever done it, and isn't it a good 4 hours of work anyway? $500 doesn't seem that off the mark. But yeah, I think I would try to do it myself first. :)

[JanSolo]

It all depends on what is worth more to you - time or money.

[earlyapex]

you gotta be crazy to pay $500 to get a turbo installed ;)


Word to that.

I'd probably try to do a TME installation myself, but honestly, some of us haven't ever done it, and isn't it a good 4 hours of work anyway? $500 doesn't seem that off the mark. But yeah, I think I would try to do it myself first. :)

No, $500 is recockulious, please don't pay someone that much. Matz, I know you will be able to do it no problem from what I have seen you do so far. It really isn't hard.

It has to be super easy on nice new evos. Old dsms had rusted bolts, rusted on hangers, etc etc.

[mygsx]

I kinda almost want to slap one on my car just to see if the damn turbo is all hype...

doit. doit. doit. doit. doit.+2

[MitsuMan]

Is that a common amount to boost for a tuned WR or are your just takin it easy right now? Why no injectors?

[earlyapex]

Is that a common amount to boost for a tuned WR or are your just takin it easy right now? Why no injectors?

For 91 you don't want to go much over 21psi, Spikes are different of course.

[Stormtrooper]

Hey guys, how did i miss this thread again.... :lol:

I haven't changed the tune since this dyno. I haven't really seen any other signals that this tune is that close to the edge... it has never majorly pulled timing and has never hiccupped from knock, including during a full day at Thunderhill.

I talked to Pete about the matter (before the trackday) and he spent some time explaining to me about how all the works cars for some reason seem to be reading that way on the gruppe-s dyno. Also during the test runs on my car at works, there was no pulled timing anywhere in any gear (didn't test 5th gear). Pete also said that he is positive that this tune is if anything still pretty conservative and is a similar tune to what many other P2/WR/TR340 cars are running, including i'm guessing that David just got (evo442).

I haven't done the injectors as a recommendation from works that it was not necessary for the tune and amount of boost i'm currently running.

All this being said, before another track day (ESPECIALLY before it gets hotter) I'm planning to get Andy to do some testing on my car with his wideband and logger to double confirm Works' tune. As much as I trust Pete and the other guys there, the peace of mind is worth it alone.


I've also been looking into a ecu tuning solution that is self tunable. I'm looking into either the ECU+ right now or the MAFRPRO w/ wideband. New injectors will also come at the same time (would like some extra head room).

-Jeff

[dohcvtec]

...

[earlyapex]

I talked to Pete about the matter (before the trackday) and he spent some time explaining to me about how all the works cars for some reason seem to be reading that way on the gruppe-s dyno.

This makes no sense what-so-ever. How does the dyno change the AFR's when a WORKS car gets on there? How does it know a WORKS tuned car is on the dyno?

Care to explain to us what he explained to you?

[pstevo8]

you gotta be crazy to pay $500 to get a turbo installed ;)


Word to that.

I'd probably try to do a TME installation myself, but honestly, some of us haven't ever done it, and isn't it a good 4 hours of work anyway? $500 doesn't seem that off the mark. But yeah, I think I would try to do it myself first. :)

No, $500 is recockulious, please don't pay someone that much. Matz, I know you will be able to do it no problem from what I have seen you do so far. It really isn't hard.

It has to be super easy on nice new evos. Old dsms had rusted bolts, rusted on hangers, etc etc.


Putting a new turbo on yourself is definately not rocket science! I have done all of my modifications myself, which includes almost everything that can be done, short of a built motor.

It may take a little longer than an experienced person, but atleast when something goes wrong, you more likely be able to find and fix the problem yourself, instead of having to turn to the "mechanic". That alone could save you $$$$.

My 2 cents


Bill

[evo637]

What's the cost for all the mods?
Almost makes it worthwhile for evo 8 guys to trade in their evos for the evo 9's. :?

Heh.. after all the time I've spent modding my 8, I ain't trading it in for a few extra ponies! People seem to overlook the fact that handling and braking is still going to be the same between the 8 and 9.

+1 :D

[Stormtrooper]

Sorry I said this the wrong way. What I meant was that there have been a number of other cars tuned by works that have exhibited the same lean readings on the gruppe-s dyno.

He didn't explain that the dyno only reads works cars lean, but only about why his tunes do read that way.

He had a few reasons. His first was that the default evo load settings on the mustang dyno from mustang are off for 3rd gear pulls. Apparently they compared some datalogged runs on flat straightaways to the datalogged runs on the mustang dyno for the same car, and the loads on the dyno were set too low. This apparently was shown more than once (on different cars). He compared it to running your car downhill which he says will typically make your car run slightly leaner than on flat ground.

The next thing he said was that my dyno pulls were done with the wideband sensor hooked up to the tailpipe WITH my cat in place, and this also will throw readings off. I wasn't sure if this was true or not and I didn't really bother to check so maybe somebody else can answer that question better.

He then told me that when this issue came up in the past with his tunes, that he did some retesting/tuning on several of the P2 tuned cars (i guess he spent a large amount of time with it after some gruppe-s dynoday), but that on every car on his test runs, the afr would read spot on at 11.2-11.3 and without any pulled timing.

So this was all fine for me, but then I asked him about that pulled timing high end where the car dumps in some extra fuel after 6400rpm. He said that on all his tunes, unless requested otherwise, and as an extra precaution, he'll dump in some extra fuel high end since that range seems to be where these motors fail the most. Also, he stated that if it had been knock and pulled timing as I suspected, the drop off in power wouldn't have been that smooth, but more jagged.

The rich high end condition made the most sense to me since the reasons for the lean condition were all kinda based on suspicion and stuff I couldn't really see or verify on my own car.

In any case, my car has never majorly pulled any timing and has been running smooth for the last 3k+ miles on this tune. I don't, however, really want to run any more track days, especially in hot weather without a little more reassurance.

Instead of going through the trouble of going against what Pete said and asking for a retune (where I still wouldn't have the ability to make adjustments myself later), I decided to just take the jump to a solution like ECU+ or the MAFRPRO with the addition of a wideband. This way I can see for myself what's going on.


-Jeff

[Gruppe-S]

Here we go again with the downhill dyno theory :lol:

The load on the dyno is set properly and we have tuned many Evos and WRX including our sponsored US touring WRX, which made it thru the season and capturing second place in the championship without a single engine failure.

FYI, the tail pipe AFR was dead on with cars that have wideband on their dp or test pipe. You can verify that with Kevin and Bryan and many of our Subaru customers.

Thanks,
Tom

[300kpa]

The next thing he said was that my dyno pulls were done with the wideband sensor hooked up to the tailpipe WITH my cat in place, and this also will throw readings off. I wasn't sure if this was true or not and I didn't really bother to check so maybe somebody else can answer that question better.


+1 on that. I have an Innovate LM-1 installed before Cat when doing dyno at Gruppe-S. It reads about 0.5-0.7 AFR leaner on Gruppe-S tail pipe reading than on my LM-1. So yes, reading AFR at the tailpipe will not be accurate with a cat on.

[Stormtrooper]

hehe just relaying what was told me to. Again this is all stuff that I couldn't verify or prove whatsoever, just the explanation given to me

[KevOVIII]

I have no cat and the readings between Gruppe-S' dyno and my LM-1 is basically spot on. The AFR readings from Vishnu and Full Function read the same also. :)

[Stormtrooper]

well I picked up a UTEC and i'll be running that in conjunction with a PLX R500 Wideband w/ EGT and G sensor.

The UTEC won't be in till next week but I put in the R500 today and put in the wideband and everything. I haven't had time to do any real logging but I did a couple 3rd gear pulls during the day. EGT is sitting around 850C and AFR is sitting around 11.2-11.4 midrange and goes to around 10.5 above 6400rpm.

I'm not monitoring timing or knock yet since I'd rather splice into the UTEC harness than my stock harness, but I can't wait to do some tinkering, not to mention seeing what can really be done on 100 octane.

I've never had a Gtech or equivalent before (and I haven't set it up yet on this one) but I'm curious if these are precise enough to see actual differences between tunes/gas. Anybody every played with one of these while they were tuning?

-Jeff

[300kpa]

I've never had a Gtech or equivalent before (and I haven't set it up yet on this one) but I'm curious if these are precise enough to see actual differences between tunes/gas. Anybody every played with one of these while they were tuning?

-Jeff

The G Meters and G-Tech test results are very repeatable, but they are very sensitive to bumps and slope. Just do teh same test runs on the same road and it should give you a relatively accurate result. The numbers may be different from wat you see from the real dyno, but the curve should be identical.

Good luck withyour UTEC! I have some good result with it.

-Clive

[wilson1]

Hey clive,

Have you played with the Gtech?
you will have to show me how to use it. :D

[300kpa]

Hey clive,

Have you played with the Gtech?
you will have to show me how to use it. :D

Wilson, you have so many toys!!! Yes, I used the oldest model, but I don;t have any experience with the newer one. I think it should not be hard to use once it is setup with your car's data. :wink:

[Evo442]

I too have found the results of the Gtech to be quite repeatable, but it does take practice and consistency - same road, same conditions, same launch etc.

[Stormtrooper]

Thanks for your feedback guys. I did some more logging with the R500 last night. Man, it looks like I'm going to be wasting a lot of gas playing with different maps/gas. =P

[evo_dadi]

Thanks for your feedback guys. I did some more logging with the R500 last night. Man, it looks like I'm going to be wasting a lot of gas playing with different maps/gas. =P

gas doesnt go to waste tho :wink: its all part of tuning the evo :twisted: