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View Full Version : Let's talk about bigger turbos...



Steiner
11-26-2005, 11:49 PM
It looks like in the next 6 months I'll be getting my dad's '97 Buick Park Avenue Ultra to use as my daily driver. Once that happens I'll change around my insurance and make the Evo my weekend warrior. No weekend warrior Evo should be punished with a little 16g IMHO. :lol:

I've been reading that the white rabbit turbos hold boost well and put down nice broad power curves compared to the stock snail. However peak HP is still generally under 400whp. As fas as "bang for the buck" and daily driveability, this definately sounds like the way to go.

After the white rabbit I like the sound of the GT3076 kit. Full boost hits between 3600 and 3800 RPM's and 420whp is attainable with 91 octane and a safe AFR. Prices are double the WR, but I think you get what you pay for because it's more of a complete power package.

And after the GT3076 is the monstrous GT35. Full boost doesn't hit until after 4200 RPM's, but 550whp is possible on 91 octane at less than 30lbs of boost. Pricing for the GT35 packages I've seen aren't too much more than the GT3076, but I'm guessing nobody does a big turbo like that without first making serious upgrades to the drivetrain.

So which of these three packages do you guys like the most considering we all use 91 octane? And are there any others I'm forgetting?

Gruppe-S
11-26-2005, 11:52 PM
Hi,

You will be lucky if you can get somewhere close to 300whp on our dyno. With a 3076, you should see about 340-350 when its properly tuned.

Personally, I would go with a 3071r if it was going to be used with pump. It will spool quicker with a similar result of a 3076. However, its a different story if you were going with race gas.

Tom

Steiner
11-27-2005, 12:38 AM
Hi,

You will be lucky if you can get somewhere close to 300whp on our dyno. With a 3076, you should see about 340-350 when its properly tuned.

Personally, I would go with a 3071r if it was going to be used with pump. It will spool quicker with a similar result of a 3076. However, its a different story if you were going with race gas.

Tom
Sup Tom. Yeah that's what I like about the Gruppe-S dyno though. I have more respect for 300whp in your shop than 350whp somewhere else. My measly 235whp Evo laid down some hate on a SoCal coworker's supposed "300whp" G35 coupe out on 580 a few weeks ago. He claimed it was tuned for high elevation. :?

Has Mike tuned any Evos with the 3071r yet? I see that you guys sell the one by ATP. I'd love to see a dyno chart if you got one or know of one. I'm not so concerned with the peak numbers right now as I am about the type of power band. As much as I like lots of power, I don't think I could ever do one of those big turbos that don't kick in until 5k RPM's.

earlyapex
11-27-2005, 01:52 AM
since you only do 235whp on your stock turbo currently, how about maximizing that first? Another 40-60whp is a whole different world and is easily attainable with your stock "little" 16g.

Steiner
11-27-2005, 02:08 AM
since you only do 235whp on your stock turbo currently, how about maximizing that first? Another 40-60whp is a whole different world and is easily attainable with your stock "little" 16g.
Hehe. Glad you mentioned that. :lol: My Tanabe DP is sitting patiently at Gruppe-S while I wait for my 3" HFC to get here in the mail. Once I've got everything I'll bring it back in for another EcuTek flash and dyno tune. I'm hoping to be somewhere around 260whp.

onesicklambo
11-27-2005, 05:23 PM
screw the rabbit. gt35r :twisted:

Steiner
11-27-2005, 05:40 PM
screw the rabbit. gt35r :twisted:
It sounds like the WR is actually a great replacement for the stock turbo if you're doing a lot of city driving or need good lowend and quick spool for autox or track days. The power band is impressive, but peak numbers are similair to stock. I'm probably more interested in the kind of power that can take you down the 1/4 mile in the low 12's on pump gas and can get you back home with enough low and mid end power to still carve up the canyon like only the Evo can. I want more power, but I don't want to change the basic characteristics of my car like the GT35 would. I like the Evo's DNA. The big GT35 is, of course, designed to induce involuntary bowel movements at full boost. :shock:

Shifting gears slightly...in researching aftermarket turbos I'm noticing more and more negativity regarding the 20G. Evos are trapping 120mph with that snail, but it looks like surging is a real problem in daily driving.

earlyapex
11-27-2005, 06:24 PM
You can do mid to low 12's with the stock turbo on pump gas and 11's on race gas.

Steiner
11-27-2005, 06:42 PM
You can do mid to low 12's with the stock turbo on pump gas and 11's on race gas.
Yeah I've read about a few but I get the impression that the cost of putting down that type of power on the stock 16g with 91 tinkle is expensive and shortlived.

Earlyapex...do you know what type of corresponding engine management tuners are using for the WR vs. TME vs. the GT3071R? I'm assuming once you get into the GT turbo family things like EcuTek software and a simple boost controller wouldn't cut it anymore for proffesional tuning. :?:

earlyapex
11-27-2005, 06:53 PM
too expensive?

cams / tbe / mbc / engine management / fuel pump / injectors

That will give you mid 12's easily and low 12's if you can drive on 91 octane. 11's on race gas if you can drive.

Methods4 did 12's with just a turboback and safc.

You will need all that above if you are going to a bigger turbo anyway.

I'll have everything but the cams and they are coming this week so I will show you the dyno numbers.

piggybacks (safc, ecuplus, etc), or a reflash like Ecutek will do fine with a bigger turbo, just depends on how involved you want to get. The Ecutek is actually a very very powerfull reflash if tuned with the proper hands. It has access to alot of ecu parameters.

The one big big big plus with the Ecutek (and also standalones) is that you can change the factory rev limit, which with a larger turbo, you will need.

MitsuMan
11-28-2005, 06:16 PM
go with the 30 series. I pumped up my stock turbo to 280 on 91 and 320 on 100 and its old already. once you have a 3037 you'll be tha shit

Steiner
11-28-2005, 06:59 PM
I'm surprised EcuTek can handle a GT3071 swap. Everything else I've been reading seems to suggest anything short of something like an AEM EMS or Xede would be an exercise in futility. Don't get me wrong...that's great news and would save me lots of money if I do end up going with a big turbo.

Thanks for the info guys. I've scoured EvoM for anything related to the GT3071 and there's very little. Seems only a few people posted about it before going that route...although I do see a few of the tuners like Buschur, Precision Dyno and Dynoflash saying extremely favorable things about it.

It also sounds like the 6.5 TME and White Rabbit don't provide the "kick in the ass" power for '05 Evos like they do for the '03 and '04 Evos with the smaller 9.8cm2 hotside.

Gruppe-S
11-28-2005, 07:15 PM
Ecutek will work for 3071 or even 3076. The only reason why you would want a standalone is because you might max out the stock MAF depending on what kind of gas you are running. I would recommend you to stay with the stock ECU setup if you were not looking for insane power. The drivability will be much better than a standalone.

Thanks,
Tom

lqdchkn
11-28-2005, 07:24 PM
If you were looking at the WR and then the 3071, why not a 2871? right in the middle. Better spool than the 3071 with only marginal ( I think 50hp ) max power loss.

Steiner
11-28-2005, 08:18 PM
Based on all I've read it sounds like the GT2871 boosts only marginally better than the stock turbo but with a disproportionate amount of turbo lag. It will hit 23psi but will not hold it to redline like the GT3071. However there's even less info on the GT2871 then the GT3071 so I'm by no means ruling it out...hence the title of this thread. :wink:

I've also heard that ATP's GT3071 setup is notorious for slow spool-up in large part due to the fact it uses the restrictive factory exhaust manifold. I understand that this kit is designed to look stock when you pop the hood (and I like that a lot), but how much quicker would the boost hit with a custom equal length manifold like this...

http://www.evolutionmr.net/pics/evofr/DSC01494.JPG

Thanks to "EFIxMR" for the pic and info!

dohcvtec
11-28-2005, 09:21 PM
Full Race manifolds are sexy 8)

I think with ECU+ you can use larger GM MAF sensors and scale accordingly if MAF restriction is an issue.

lqdchkn
11-28-2005, 09:24 PM
That's why I'm thinking ATP 2871 or 3071, still undecided myself, but having a stock manifold Extrude Honed first. Just not sure whether when I get used to the new power if the 2871 will be enough to support my habbit. :lol:

Steiner
11-28-2005, 09:31 PM
Full Race manifolds are sexy 8)

I think with ECU+ you can use larger GM MAF sensors and scale accordingly if MAF restriction is an issue.
I'm reading that on pump gas MAF restrictions only have the potential to become an issue with the GT35 and bigger blowers. Does that sound about right?


That's why I'm thinking ATP 2871 or 3071, still undecided myself, but having a stock manifold Extrude Honed first. Just not sure whether when I get used to the new power if the 2871 will be enough to support my habbit.
Be sure to research the 2871. Everything I've read has been pretty negative. Sounds like it's only marginally better than the stock turbo...and I haven't seen or heard about anybody picking up one since the TME or WR were released. That leads me to believe it's on the same level as the aftermarket stock size turbos. Not worth it IMHO. :tisk:

earlyapex
11-28-2005, 09:32 PM
I think with ECU+ you can use larger GM MAF sensors and scale accordingly if MAF restriction is an issue.'

You would be correct. 8)

dohcvtec
11-28-2005, 09:35 PM
Full Race manifolds are sexy 8)

I think with ECU+ you can use larger GM MAF sensors and scale accordingly if MAF restriction is an issue.
I'm reading that on pump gas MAF restrictions only have the potential to become an issue with the GT35 and bigger blowers. Does that sound about right?

I'm not too sure, I'm still somewhat of a turbo newbie. :P

earlyapex
11-28-2005, 09:38 PM
I'm reading that on pump gas MAF restrictions only have the potential to become an issue with the GT35 and bigger blowers. Does that sound about right?



And you would be correct as well. Only the bigger turbos. 8) Starting to realize the stock turbo / ecu / MAF / exhaust manifold has alot of potential now? :D

Steiner
11-28-2005, 10:02 PM
Starting to realize the stock turbo / ecu / MAF / exhaust manifold has alot of potential now? :D
Without a doubt. That's why I bought an Evo rather than an STi. {Steiner preys no STi lurkers take this thread OT after reading that. } :P

The stock setup is well balanced and capable of much more power. Probably more power than I or anybody else on the streets needs. That much I understand. In the process of trying to wrap one's newbie brain around the stock setup it's only natural to see the potential for obscene power though. The block will withstand a lot if properly tuned. The only limiting factor is my bank account. I think I'll be divorced and living out of the backseat of my 500whp Evo if I don't pull myself away from the internet soon.

:blam:

dohcvtec
11-28-2005, 10:04 PM
haha, so true

earlyapex
11-28-2005, 11:43 PM
The stock setup is well balanced and capable of much more power. Probably more power than I or anybody else on the streets needs. That much I understand. In the process of trying to wrap one's newbie brain around the stock setup it's only natural to see the potential for obscene power though. The block will withstand a lot if properly tuned. The only limiting factor is my bank account. I think I'll be divorced and living out of the backseat of my 500whp Evo if I don't pull myself away from the internet soon.

:blam:

well just listen to all the old-skool dsmers like me and tony and turbotiger and the like and realize we've been there done that. 8)

a mid to low 12 sec awd car on the street is an assload of fun and very capable of holding it's own.

I do however agree the urge to beat up on porsche turbos and z06's on the highway is very tempting.

white power
11-29-2005, 01:04 AM
For a stock appearing street bruiser I hear the 2.3/2.4 stroker+ported head,o.s. valves and a rabbit will be the way to go...way earlier, harder hitting spool, linear pull from low to top end all the way to redline and all through the stock E.c.u./m.a.f. Works race car proves you dont need an AEM or SAFC to haul ass. Works race car used a 30series garrett and stock techtom flashed ecu/maf combo.. no weird piggyback or expensive standalone & got 2nd place only behind GM's factory backed nitrous sucking Cobalt. Basicly their idea is to put the $ inside the motor and tune instead of hanging a load of trickery off of it. Wonder if there is "Cosworth inside"(see rocker panel)
http://givegas.com/pics/SF-SCCA-WORKS.jpg

Cameron@xperformance
11-29-2005, 08:25 AM
acctually WORKS wasnt second behind the cobalt. but it was another EVO

earlyapex
11-29-2005, 11:37 AM
Works race car proves you dont need an AEM or SAFC to haul ass. Works race car used a 30series garrett and stock techtom flashed ecu/maf combo.. no weird piggyback or expensive standalone & got 2nd place only behind GM's factory backed nitrous sucking Cobalt. Basicly their idea is to put the $ inside the motor and tune instead of hanging a load of trickery off of it. Wonder if there is "Cosworth inside"(see rocker panel)


Yea no "expensive" standalone but do you know how much a built motor costs? let alone a cosworth? You can go very fast with a 4G63 without building the motor. This isn't a honda. What's trickery about hanging stuff off it? I can pretty much say that car has just as much bolt ons as it does engine internals.

You are correct that is all in the tune. Just look at all the people at dyno days with a billion bolt ons and only making like 30-40hp more than stock.

Steiner
11-29-2005, 09:34 PM
Bryan...I was at Gruppe-S today scheduling dyno time for next Monday between 1pm-5pm. Tom showed me your dyno chart so I would have a general idea what my car would/should more or less put down after the tune with the new 3" TBE. Very nice numbers. :thumbsup:

The location in your profile says "Open track events"...LOL...so I'm not sure if you're near Hayward or not. If you're close feel free drop by and we'll kick some tires. In addition to the great input I already got from Tom, I'd like to get your take on the different cams out there and also check out your MR.

earlyapex
11-29-2005, 11:10 PM
The location in your profile says "Open track events"...LOL...so I'm not sure if you're near Hayward or not. If you're close feel free drop by and we'll kick some tires. In addition to the great input I already got from Tom, I'd like to get your take on the different cams out there and also check out your MR.

I live in Alameda. I'll actually be at gruppe-s all day this friday. Installing some goodies and tuning on the dyno for a couple hours. 8)

I would come talk on monday but I can't get away from work since I am taking friday off. :P Good luck though!

Steiner
11-29-2005, 11:16 PM
Are you putting in the new cams on Friday?

earlyapex
11-29-2005, 11:17 PM
Are you putting in the new cams on Friday?

Yup. :twisted:

wilson1
11-29-2005, 11:22 PM
Hey steiner,
whereabouts are u at in San Ramon?

Steiner
11-29-2005, 11:51 PM
Hey steiner,
whereabouts are u at in San Ramon?
I'm right over the hill if you take Crow Canyon from Castro Valley into San Ramon. I drive by your dentist office almost everyday. :D

wilson1
11-30-2005, 01:43 AM
Hey steiner,
whereabouts are u at in San Ramon?
I'm right over the hill if you take Crow Canyon from Castro Valley into San Ramon. I drive by your dentist office almost everyday. :D

Just stop by and say hello! :D

EFIxMR
11-30-2005, 03:06 AM
hey earlyapex,

which cams are you getting?

earlyapex
11-30-2005, 10:57 AM
hey earlyapex,

which cams are you getting?

272/272

Steiner
11-30-2005, 02:46 PM
hey earlyapex,

which cams are you getting?

272/272
Tom was telling me that the 272's go with the Garret 3071 like white on rice. Just some food for thought. :beaming:

earlyapex
11-30-2005, 02:48 PM
hey earlyapex,

which cams are you getting?

272/272
Tom was telling me that the 272's go with the Garret 3071 like white on rice. Just some food for thought. :beaming:

heh, no big turbo plans for me yet. :)

earlyapex
11-30-2005, 04:43 PM
Works race car proves you dont need an AEM or SAFC to haul ass. Works race car used a 30series garrett and stock techtom flashed ecu/maf combo.. no weird piggyback or expensive standalone & got 2nd place only behind GM's factory backed nitrous sucking Cobalt.

So if you are going to post stuff like this, you might want to do some research first:

The WORKS car got 6th overall, that's 5 spots behind the cobalt overall. The works and cobalt where in two totally different classes. The cobalt, Unlimited FF, the WORKS EVO, Limited AWD. WORKS won their class, Limited AWD.

So where did you get that it got 2nd behind the Cobalt?

Here are the results:
http://www.superstreetonline.com/eventcoverage/130_0511_timeattack/

MarkSAE
11-30-2005, 05:05 PM
You getting springs and retainers w/ your cams Bryan?

earlyapex
11-30-2005, 05:11 PM
You getting springs and retainers w/ your cams Bryan?

Nope, don't need them.

Gruppe-S
11-30-2005, 05:18 PM
There's no need for springs and retainers if you are running HKS or Buddy Club cams.

Thanks,
Tom

JanSolo
11-30-2005, 06:26 PM
Hmm I thought the guys from Revolver Cams said you needed them a long time ago.

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showpost.php?p=1616376&postcount=76

genrec
11-30-2005, 06:31 PM
There's no need for springs and retainers if you are running HKS or Buddy Club cams.

Thanks,
Tom

Funny you guys bring this up..down in Socal there was a little debating about this. I have the 264/272 hks combo but hesitant to put them in without springs and retainers. The main concensus was if you dont rev past the stock limiter or over say 7500 you should be fine and not float a valve.........but if you are removing your rev limiter and going over it is a must or you are looking for trouble. is the the theory up here in NorCal???

I still have not put them in , and im a tad bit paranoid..........

earlyapex
11-30-2005, 06:34 PM
Hmm I thought the guys from Revolver Cams said you needed them a long time ago.

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showpost.php?p=1616376&postcount=76

Yes they did. There is also tons of people driving around open tracking, racing (RRE and others), and also even going past 8,000 rpms (Sean Ivy) every day for miles upon miles upon miles with no problems. Same with DSMs and they have weaker springs.

So... white paper or real world? You choose.

KevOVIII
11-30-2005, 06:34 PM
Hmm I thought the guys from Revolver Cams said you needed them a long time ago.

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showpost.php?p=1616376&postcount=76

That's the reason why I swapped out the stock valve springs and retainers. There hasn't been any issues with the seals but I'd rather be safe than sorry later on. Also, it's a nice excuse to have a higher rev limit. :D

methods4
11-30-2005, 06:37 PM
Funny you guys bring this up..down in Socal there was a little debating about this. I have the 264/272 hks combo but hesitant to put them in without springs and retainers. The main concensus was if you dont rev past the stock limiter or over say 7500 you should be fine and not float a valve.........but if you are removing your rev limiter and going over it is a must or you are looking for trouble. is the the theory up here in NorCal???

I still have not put them in , and im a tad bit paranoid..........

You will be fine with the stock valvetrain and HKS cams. Tons and tons of people do it and have been doing it since early DSM days.

Gruppe-S
11-30-2005, 06:39 PM
I been tracking my car with HKS 272 cams with stock valvetrain no problem. It hits rev limit at 7600 everytime and no valve float. Altho it would be nice to upgrade but that doesn't mean it's a must.

Tom

MarkSAE
11-30-2005, 07:14 PM
If marred valve seals are "no problem" to you, then that's fine. Keeping the stock retainers seem to work. I'd rather do things right the first time around though. Any type of interference happening inside the engine is unacceptable to me.

hellz Evo
11-30-2005, 07:14 PM
I been tracking my car with HKS 272 cams with stock valvetrain no problem. It hits rev limit at 7600 everytime and no valve float. Altho it would be nice to upgrade but that doesn't mean it's a must.

Tom

+1

crctslt
11-30-2005, 10:17 PM
go with the 30 series. I pumped up my stock turbo to 280 on 91 and 320 on 100 and its old already. once you have a 3037 you'll be tha shit

+1 :D

JanSolo
11-30-2005, 11:31 PM
So... white paper or real world? You choose.

Why do I have to choose anything? I just posted a link and I'm certainly not installing cams anytime soon.

earlyapex
12-01-2005, 12:26 AM
So... white paper or real world? You choose.

Why do I have to choose anything? I just posted a link and I'm certainly not installing cams anytime soon.

I meant in general. I know your rx8 doesn't have cams, but the z06 you want does. 8)

JanSolo
12-01-2005, 09:27 AM
I meant in general. I know your rx8 doesn't have cams, but the z06 you want does. 8)

Singular - it has only one cam. ;) And besides, I don't want a Z06 any longer. I'm still fixated on my 4G63 swap into a WRX idea.

earlyapex
12-01-2005, 11:10 AM
I meant in general. I know your rx8 doesn't have cams, but the z06 you want does. 8)

Singular - it has only one cam. ;) And besides, I don't want a Z06 any longer. I'm still fixated on my 4G63 swap into a WRX idea.

How the hell are you going to do that? You would have to swap the whole drivetrain since the Boxer layout is RWD style.

Anywho, did you see the guy that is swapping a LS1 into a wrx? :shock:

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?goto=lastpost&t=380239

or cached if that doesn't work:

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:m0TO5iZCwa0J:www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php%3Fgoto%3Dlastpost%26t%3D380239+LS1+ wrx&hl=en&client=firefox-a

white power
12-18-2005, 12:01 AM
To the guy above.....


do you know how much a built motor costs? let alone a cosworth? You can go very fast with a 4G63 without building the motor. This isn't a honda. You are correct that is all in the tune. Just look at all the people at dyno days with a billion bolt ons and only making like 30-40hp more than stock. huh??? :?

Yes I know what built motors cost, ive ported my own stuff and built motors for years you whack off! Cosworths are off the chart expensive....dont come off like a dick, 'I know everything' online prick please

earlyapex
12-18-2005, 12:51 AM
To the guy above.....


do you know how much a built motor costs? let alone a cosworth? You can go very fast with a 4G63 without building the motor. This isn't a honda. You are correct that is all in the tune. Just look at all the people at dyno days with a billion bolt ons and only making like 30-40hp more than stock. huh??? :?

Yes I know what built motors cost, ive ported my own stuff and built motors for years you whack off! Cosworths are off the chart expensive....dont come off like a dick, 'I know everything' online prick please

Dun be sad.

Cameron@xperformance
12-18-2005, 01:46 AM
i think someone needs a carebear...

JanSolo
12-18-2005, 01:46 PM
How the hell are you going to do that? You would have to swap the whole drivetrain since the Boxer layout is RWD style.

It's one of those "if I were rich, I'd do it just to be funny". It's akin to my dream of a 13B in a Geo Metro.