MAFTPRO

[Stormtrooper]

Has anybody here tried this solution out yet?

I'm seriously looking into running one of these in conjunction with a wideband. It doesn't look like you can adjust timing quite yet but it sounds like it's coming out very shortly.

-Jeff

[dohcvtec]

I considered this also. The consensus seems to be ECU+ is just the better route to go. :P Are you trying to delete your MAF? I know ECU+ can use a larger GM MAF sensor.

[earlyapex]

the stock MAF is not a restriction whatsoever on any stock based turbo.

With the ECU+, like DohcvteXorZ said, allows you to run a larger GM MAF if need be.

I honestly haven't looked into the MAFTPRO much so I can't give you a accurate comparison. What I do know is I love my ECU+. :D

[Gruppe-S]

I do see any reason to run a Mafpro unless you are making huge hp or want to ur a VTA bov. The stock maf is very efficent and we haven't seen the limit yet with any stock turbo Evo. I don't think its worth the trouble for the little gain.

Thanks,
Tom

[Stormtrooper]

It looks like it allows or will allow for both fuel and timing adjustment and has a feature, where if hooked up to a wideband, can autoadjust fuel to a target AFR. It also allows for datalogging, and the option to both run a larger MAF or speed density. I was looking at it more as a tuning tool than a way to dump the stock MAF.

It also says that it can do boost control, but I suspect that you'll need a MAP sensor to do that...

[earlyapex]

How much? Nevermind, about $600 with PNP.

btw ECU+ has 250rpm increments in fuel and timing. Looks like MAFTPRO is every 400rpm at the bottom and every 600rpm or so past 2200rpm.

Also, can you change settings only via that small little LCD screen on the box or is there a software GUI as well?

The ECU+ GUI is very well done and easy to use, as is the logger, you can also use a laptop or a palmpilot.

[crctslt]

ECU+ FTW

[Stormtrooper]

hmmm hopefully somebody else doing the same research can verify all this but this is what seems to be a summary of the main features that I'll actually use.:

MAFRPRO: $400 -> close to $600 for PnP.
- Adjustments to both fuel and timing (coming soon), but at 600rpm increments.
- Tuning and datalogging is to be done on a laptop.
- Can be used in conjunction with a wideband where it can self adjust fuel trims to a target AFR.
- You can add an optional boost solenoid attachment so that the unit can control boost (can also auto adjust to a target boost). I guess you can also run different boost levels upon launch or for other situations.
- Ability to run a larger GM MAF.
- Cannot currently read/log knock.

ECU+: $600 with PnP
- Adjustments to both fuel and timing at 250rpm increments.
- Tuning and datalogging can be done on either a laptop or palm.
- Can input/log wideband.
- Can run larger GM MAF.

Am I missing anything really big here? It looks like I either have to choose between tuning resolution, or a unit with LCD output and potential boost control.

[Matz]

FYI, the PnP ECU+ is $700, and non-PnP is $579. You can get an ECU harness for $55 and do the wiring yourself, which is very simple. Saves you a little bit of cash if you're willing to solder yourself.

Like earlyapex said, the ECU+ software is fantastic. Before I bought it, I was loading his log files so I could play around with the interface. I'm really impressed by what that one-man shop can do!

Also keep in mind future expandability. Tom designed the ECU+ with spare inputs and outputs, so he can eventually do boost / nitrous control, or log another linear sensor besides AFR.

[earlyapex]

hmmm hopefully somebody else doing the same research can verify all this but this is what seems to be a summary of the main features that I'll actually use.:

MAFRPRO: $400 -> close to $600 for PnP.
- Adjustments to both fuel and timing (coming soon), but at 600rpm increments.
- Tuning and datalogging is to be done on a laptop.
- Can be used in conjunction with a wideband where it can self adjust fuel trims to a target AFR.
- You can add an optional boost solenoid attachment so that the unit can control boost (can also auto adjust to a target boost). I guess you can also run different boost levels upon launch or for other situations.
- Ability to run a larger GM MAF.
- Cannot currently read/log knock.

ECU+: $600 with PnP
- Adjustments to both fuel and timing at 250rpm increments.
- Tuning and datalogging can be done on either a laptop or palm.
- Can input/log wideband.
- Can run larger GM MAF.

Am I missing anything really big here? It looks like I either have to choose between tuning resolution, or a unit with LCD output and potential boost control.

The MAFTPRO is more than $399 since there are required things in order for it to work like the speed density harness, etc

I didn't know u can't read/log knock on the MAFTPRO, to me that is a deal breaker. In fact, the ECU+ has its own processor for knock and is very very accurate. Being able to see knock voltage is KEY to tuning.

Btw, for what its worth, NTLS, Studderbox and boost control is coming soon for the ECU +.

ECU+ also has:
- Road Dyno (very useful to see if changes made a difference on the road, can overlay multiple logs)
- Simulated rear 02 output (no check engine lights for no cat)
- Idle Smoothing
- Decel Smoothing
- Knock back off
- Boost, EGT and Wideband logging
- Full OBD2 support scanner/reader ( check full codes and when they happened, also code delete)

[Stormtrooper]

hmmm thanks for the input guys....

I don't think you need the speed density harness for the MAFRPRO unless you actually want to change over to speed density. It has a normal mode where it will use just use and adjust the stock MAF.

It looks like I'll probably be going with the ECU+. Matz where can you get a harness for 55?

[ez76]

Last I checked, ECU+ only had 4 load points per RPM increment (low, medium, high, WOT)? Is this still the case and how does it affect tuning practically? Seems like it would make it difficult to accomodate differing fuel requirements at different loads e.g. partial throttle tuning over a range of different boosts.

[Matz]

It looks like I'll probably be going with the ECU+. Matz where can you get a harness for 55?

earlyapex pointed me to FasterThanThem (www.fasterthanthem.com). Fast shipping, great price. Gonna solder it together today. :) Can't wait to start datalogging with the ECU+, it looks like a fantastic package.

FYI, you'll probably see my post on evom, but the one for $500 is already sold. I tried to buy it last week.

[Stormtrooper]

Damn it looks like boomslang put those other makers out of business and the shop hasn't been carrying this harness for the last few months.

ECU+ is also backordered for at least a couple weeks. I guess they're selling like hotcakes.

[earlyapex]

Last I checked, ECU+ only had 4 load points per RPM increment (low, medium, high, WOT)? Is this still the case and how does it affect tuning practically? Seems like it would make it difficult to accomodate differing fuel requirements at different loads e.g. partial throttle tuning over a range of different boosts.

it's four load points at 250rpm increments, that's approx 120 cells you can tune in. What other piggyback has more?

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/dyno/010706/timingfuelmap.gif


You can also specify when it moves from the load points.

[EFIxMR]

We have the patch harnesses in stock, ask Cal for pricing.

[ez76]

it's four load points at 250rpm increments, that's approx 120 cells you can tune in. What other piggyback has more?

That's a lot of resolution in RPM but not a lot of resolution in load/boost.

In contrast, even the stock ECU has breakpoints at (roughly) every 1.4psi.

If I understand correctly, the ECU+ cannot tune separately the fuel requirements at e.g. 16psi, 17psi, 18psi, 19psi, 20psi,21psi, etc. Necessarily you would have to tune rich enough to fuel whatever range of boost that your chosen breakpoints would be operating in. This would mean running particularly rich under many partial throttle conditions.

Does that make more sense?

Also, how does "WOT" (a TPS-referenced load) interact with (what I am guessing are) MAF-referenced loads of low, medium, high?

Finally, not trying to be argumentative for argument's sake, but practically the lack of resolution in the load axis has always seemed like a limitation to anything but full-throttle/full-boost tuning.

[earlyapex]

it's four load points at 250rpm increments, that's approx 120 cells you can tune in. What other piggyback has more?

That's a lot of resolution in RPM but not a lot of resolution in load/boost.

In contrast, even the stock ECU has breakpoints at (roughly) every 1.4psi.

If I understand correctly, the ECU+ cannot tune separately the fuel requirements at e.g. 16psi, 17psi, 18psi, 19psi, 20psi,21psi, etc. Necessarily you would have to tune rich enough to fuel whatever range of boost that your chosen breakpoints would be operating in. This would mean running particularly rich under many partial throttle conditions.

Does that make more sense?

Also, how does "WOT" (a TPS-referenced load) interact with (what I am guessing are) MAF-referenced loads of low, medium, high?

Finally, not trying to be argumentative for argument's sake, but practically the lack of resolution in the load axis has always seemed like a limitation to anything but full-throttle/full-boost tuning.

What you are talking about is one of the drawbacks of piggyback units, what piggyback unit doesn't do it this way? I don't see how a piggyback would do it unless you switch from MAF to MAP.

Also, the non WOT load points in the ECU+ is based on MAF HZ. Which changes with boost, load and airflow.

Also, most of this doesn't really become an issue until you put in larger injectors. If you have the stock injectors, there is no need to do any tuning below the high and WOT cells as the ECU can handle it no problem.

Interaction between the load points are blended together much like a SAFC.

That said, I don't notice a huge difference in half throttle, mid throttle, etc etc with my 720's after tuning for them.

[ez76]

What you are talking about is one of the drawbacks of piggyback units, what piggyback unit doesn't do it this way? I don't see how a piggyback would do it unless you switch from MAF to MAP.

Some other piggybacks have map arrangements that more closely mirror the stock ECU's 16x15 (RPM x MAF Hz) so there's more fine grain adjustment to be made based on load.

After thinking about it though I can sort of see how having more grain in RPM could make up a little for lack of resolution in load (provided you had a reliable boost curve).

And all this being said, I am not even sure that the added precision in load gets the average person that much more out of their tune, which was my original question for anyone who has tuned systems with both low resolution and high resolution load variables.

[earlyapex]

Some other piggybacks have map arrangements that more closely mirror the stock ECU's 16x15 (RPM x MAF Hz) so there's more fine grain adjustment to be made based on load.


Which piggybacks? I know the Xede has a 10 point load resolution of 5% to 100% for every 500rpm. Is that what you are talking about?

[ez76]

Which piggybacks? I know the Xede has a 10 point load resolution of 5% to 100% for every 500rpm. Is that what you are talking about?

XEDE is 20x20 with user-definable load and RPM breakpoints.

[earlyapex]

Which piggybacks? I know the Xede has a 10 point load resolution of 5% to 100% for every 500rpm. Is that what you are talking about?

XEDE is 20x20 with user-definable load and RPM breakpoints.

Ok, so just Xede? Any others?

btw, I know the specs say 20x20 on XEDE but if you look at the guide and also the GUI I don't see 20x20 unless I am reading it wrong. I see 10 load points (vertical) x 11 rpm points (horizontal).

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/xede_fuelandtiming.jpg

[turbotiger]

I didn't know u can't read/log knock on the MAFTPRO, to me that is a deal breaker. In fact, the ECU+ has its own processor for knock and is very very accurate. Being able to see knock voltage is KEY to tuning.

On our cars, logging knock voltage is extremely important in tuning. Without logging knock, it's almost the same level as a SAFC.

[earlyapex]

I didn't know u can't read/log knock on the MAFTPRO, to me that is a deal breaker. In fact, the ECU+ has its own processor for knock and is very very accurate. Being able to see knock voltage is KEY to tuning.

On our cars, logging knock voltage is extremely important in tuning. Without logging knock, it's almost the same level as a SAFC.

and ACCURATE knock logging. Alot of systems are useless because the sample rate is too low on knock logging (like the low sample rate of 12.5/sec on the LM-1). It makes it hard to tell the knock from the engine noise) The ECU+ has dedicated knock sensor input conditioning circuitry and post-processing. Not sure on the sample rate though, I should ask Tom.

[ez76]

Which piggybacks? I know the Xede has a 10 point load resolution of 5% to 100% for every 500rpm. Is that what you are talking about?

XEDE is 20x20 with user-definable load and RPM breakpoints.

Ok, so just Xede? Any others?

I think the eManage is 16x16 and the UTEC is 30x10 (RPMxload) to name a couple, not sure but it just struck me that ECU+'s load resolution was low (though I suspect if there were enough demand it could be added pretty easily; this is what Tom hinted when I asked last year).


btw, I know the specs say 20x20 on XEDE but if you look at the guide and also the GUI I don't see 20x20 unless I am reading it wrong. I see 10 load points (vertical) x 11 rpm points (horizontal).Ahhh. You know, I think they might have sacrificed some resolution to enable SMART which has a whole bunch of maps apart from basic fuel, timing, boost. My guess is that is where the other 300 cells per map went - good call. I am not sure if you can order your XEDE "without SMART firmware" and reclaim those cells but at least versions through v3.1 didn't have SMART maps.

[earlyapex]

Ahhh. You know, I think they might have sacrificed some resolution to enable SMART which has a whole bunch of maps apart from basic fuel, timing, boost. My guess is that is where the other 300 cells per map went - good call. I am not sure if you can order your XEDE "without SMART firmware" and reclaim those cells but at least versions through v3.1 didn't have SMART maps.

Actually those are screenshots from the xede site in Australia. Which I believe, does not have xede smart.
Check out the tuning guide here:
http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/XEDE_Tuning_Guide.pdf

You might be right though. I haven't looked much into the XEDE before. It actually seems to be pretty damn nice, but of course, costs more.

I checked out UTEC, and it's only 30x10 if you rev your car to 9000rpm. :)

also, so far all these piggybacks are run off the MAF HZ, not boost MAP. edit:, nevermind, looks like the UTEC switches to MAP after 25% throttle position. I wonder if you have to install a MAP sensor or if it uses the stock MAP sensor.

I really don't see the ECU+ 4 load sections being a huge problem since it linearly interpolates between them.

[ez76]

Found out what's going on.

Apparently you can choose to use fewer breakpoints in a given XEDE map if you like, and that's what was happening in the images.

20x20 res. is still available even if you are SMART-enabled.

[earlyapex]

Found out what's going on.

Apparently you can choose to use fewer breakpoints in a given XEDE map if you like, and that's what was happening in the images.

20x20 res. is still available even if you are SMART-enabled.


Ok, so that makes sense, more of a advanced feature to have more load points. Again though, do you really need them? I don't see the huge huge advantage to having more unless you want to totally overload yourself with fine tuning. Again, this really only applies to running larger than stock injectors as well.

Also, in order to fine tune that high resolution of load cells, to do it correctly, you would have to hold the car at each of those load cells on a load-based dyno like a mustang or DD. I don't even want to know how many hours it would take to go through all the 20x20 cells at each load.

You can get things close while watching the fuel trims but to do it correctly would involve the above.

Does a user really need that much resolution? I have downloaded tuned XEDE xmaps by shiv himself and he doesn't use all 20x20.