Buschur's new 20G IX

[Steiner]

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=179882&page=1&pp=15

I accidentally...err I mean Turd Squirter accidentally started a heated little debate on EvoM a couple days ago when he questioned the reliability of the DSM 20G. Eventually David Buschur posted. On some subjects I fully trust Buschur's opinions. He's been in the business for a while and I respect that. However when it comes to a part he's selling call me skeptical, but I wanna hear every other side FIRST and then the vendor's side LAST.

Enter the 20G IX... (https://secure.buschurracing.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_30&products_id=710&osCsid=4adcf5476610b1ad773b9067c78eeb4a)

By all accounts and in Buschur's own words, his old 20G VIII was really bad when it came to compressor surge. Apparently the new 20G IX has none of that, which is definately better, but the fact that it actually works correctly shouldn't be a selling point. I know we have a few guys in here who've modded their DSM's long before they bought their Evos. In your experiences and in your opinions is the 20G a good turbo? And if so is it a good turbo for the Evo both from a reliability and performance perspective? Basically what's the history of this turbo on the 4G63?

[crctslt]

DSM 20G is a decent turbo. But according to the add from the Buscher site they claim that the 20g IX is good for up to 30 whp more than the stock turbo. For $1350 thats not enough gain for me. But what the hell do I know. I have a big 'ol turbo so I may be a tad biased.

[earlyapex]

"And visions of white rabbits danced in his head..."

I want to see a evo in California on 91 octane run one of these turbos with a good tune. Not buschurs ported-head / AEM EMS equipped and eleventy billion other mods 2900lb EVO RS.

Then we will see what it can actually do.

[lqdchkn]

"And visions of white rabbits danced in his head..."

I want to see a evo in California on 91 octane run one of these turbos with a good tune. Not buschurs ported-head / AEM EMS equipped and eleventy billion other mods 2900lb EVO RS.

Then we will see what it can actually do.

+1

[ez76]

I want to see a evo in California on 91 octane run one of these turbos with a good tune. Not buschurs ported-head / AEM EMS equipped and eleventy billion other mods 2900lb EVO RS.

+1, on a mustang or DD dyno as well

[Steiner]

"And visions of white rabbits danced in his head..."

I want to see a evo in California on 91 octane run one of these turbos with a good tune. Not buschurs ported-head / AEM EMS equipped and eleventy billion other mods 2900lb EVO RS.

Then we will see what it can actually do.
I hear you dude. Using a race prepped shop car as an example of "what this turbo can do" is misleading.

So you think the WR is a better bang for the buck?

[SpeedElement]

TME stock replacement turbo is the best bang for the buck turbo upgrades right now when using 91 CA piss gas..

im waiting for the IX 20G delivered to my place, then andy and I will do some testing ourselves too.

[earlyapex]

TME stock replacement turbo is the best bang for the buck turbo upgrades right now when using 91 CA piss gas..


For 03-04 evos. I don't think the small increase the TME gives from a 05 evo with 10.5 hotside is worth the price but that's just me.

[dohcvtec]

TME stock replacement turbo is the best bang for the buck turbo upgrades right now when using 91 CA piss gas..


For 03-04 evos. I don't think the small increase the TME gives from a 05 evo with 10.5 hotside is worth the price but that's just me.
Agreed

[chrisw]

I would be interested in seeing what this turbo can do on a non-MINVEC head.

I looked at the IX 20g at speed element, and the turbine is clipped from the factory to control compressor surge. But, I suspect that the compressor surging is also handled with cam adjustments (restricting or enhancing the flow through the head as a result) has a lot to do with the gains seen in this turbo.

but we shall see soon enough.

[SpeedElement]

TME stock replacement turbo is the best bang for the buck turbo upgrades right now when using 91 CA piss gas..


For 03-04 evos. I don't think the small increase the TME gives from a 05 evo with 10.5 hotside is worth the price but that's just me.

get the TME, and sell ur stock 10.5 ;) haha

[earlyapex]

I would be interested in seeing what this turbo can do on a non-MINVEC head.

I looked at the IX 20g at speed element, and the turbine is clipped from the factory to control compressor surge. But, I suspect that the compressor surging is also handled with cam adjustments (restricting or enhancing the flow through the head as a result) has a lot to do with the gains seen in this turbo.

but we shall see soon enough.

Actually the 20g-9 that Buschur sells is clipped by Buschur. Where you looking at a stock Evo 9 16g or a 20G-9 from Buschur? The Evo 9 doesn't come with a 20g from the factory. :D

If you really knew what causes compressor surge you would know that cam adjustments have nothing to do with it.

[MarkSAE]

Compressor surge happens when the pressure ratio (pressure out / pressure in) and flow rate operate left of the surge line. Below is a compressor map with the surge line in green.

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/turbo/TurboMaps/compressormap.gif

For more info, read this page:
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/turbotech.html

[Steiner]

Am I the only one too stupid to understand that graph? ADD leave me alone!

[evo_dadi]

Surge line: The map width is limited on the left by the surge line. This is basically "stalling" of the air flow at the compressor inlet. With too small a volume flow and too high a pressure ratio, the flow can no longer adhere to the suction side of the blades, with the result that the discharge process is interrupted. The air flow through the compressor is reversed until a stable pressure ratio with positive volume flow rate is reached, the pressure builds up again and the cycle repeats. This flow instability continues at a fixed frequency and the resultant noise is known as "surging".


kinda took me a while to comprehend it also :oops: :lol: to many big words :lol:

[Steiner]

So if turbocharged air is like a steady stream of water, surging is more or less like a bubble?

[MarkSAE]

Pressure In = absolute pressure at the turbo inlet, which is 1 atmosphere
Pressure Out = absolute pressure at the compressor housing exit (i.e. boost + 1 atm)

Pressure Ratio = Pressure In / Pressure Out

Volumetric flow rate = How much air is being pushed through the turbo, which varies w/ boost

During the boost onset, if the boost rises too fast before flowing enough air, you'll end up on the left side of the surge line. Clipping the turbine wheel slows spool down and should help reduce or eliminate surging.

[evo_dadi]

kinda like it or opening a shaken soda can.

[MarkSAE]

That website explains it better than I can.


Surge line: The map width is limited on the left by the surge line. This is basically "stalling" of the air flow at the compressor inlet. With too small a volume flow and too high a pressure ratio, the flow can no longer adhere to the suction side of the blades, with the result that the discharge process is interrupted. The air flow through the compressor is reversed until a stable pressure ratio with positive volume flow rate is reached, the pressure builds up again and the cycle repeats. This flow instability continues at a fixed frequency and the resultant noise is known as "surging".

[evo_dadi]

mark you just double posted what i posted :P :lol:

[MarkSAE]

Ooopss.. haha.. I also have ADD!

[smogrunner]

One thing we have to remember is that when we compare 20g 9 gains, we need to compare them to the Evo 9 turbo to see the true gain. If it ends up making 30 more whp that is pretty good if it is making 30 more than an upgrade to an Evo 9 turbo. An interesting test would be to see what a a 20g 9 would make on an Evo 9.

Also, D. Buschur thinks his Mustang reads lower than other properly set up Mustang dynos like gruppe-s and full function. I've studied this claim more intensely than I'd care to admit and I don't believe it. Just carefully look up Evom member LIFER's post history and you will see what I mean.

[earlyapex]

Also, D. Buschur thinks his Mustang reads lower than other properly set up Mustang dynos like gruppe-s and full function. I've studied this claim more intensely than I'd care to admit and I don't believe it. Just carefully look up Evom member LIFER's post history and you will see what I mean.

I think the big picture people are missing about thinking Buschurs dyno reads low is that they go off Buschurs Evo RS's trap speeds. But then they fail to remember that the car only weighs 2900lbs. They think any car that makes 350whp on Buschurs dyno will trap 120+ mph because of this.

[Eclipse]

He also has the luxury of having 94 pump octane. He lives in one of the very few places to have it. So he can still say he is running pump gas and get a little more out of it.

[vtluu]

He also has the luxury of having 94 pump octane. He lives in one of the very few places to have it. So he can still say he is running pump gas and get a little more out of it.
Lame-o. We can get 100 at the pump here, does that mean we can call 100-octane "pump gas"? :roll:

[Eclipse]

He also has the luxury of having 94 pump octane. He lives in one of the very few places to have it. So he can still say he is running pump gas and get a little more out of it.
Lame-o. We can get 100 at the pump here, does that mean we can call 100-octane "pump gas"? :roll:

Him or me? I'm sure he can get Sunoco 100 instead of 94 like we can Unocal 100 octane from a few rare stations.

[Steiner]

I'm pretty sure he's talking about Buschur. Yeah the difference between 91 and 94 is signficant. Putting 91 in Buschur's car would be like putting 87 octane in our own.

[earlyapex]

I'm pretty sure he's talking about Buschur. Yeah the difference between 91 and 94 is signficant. Putting 91 in Buschur's car would be like putting 87 octane in our own.

I have a buddy that just moved from socal to New Jersey and he said tuning with 94 octane is like tuning with race gas.

That bastard. :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[Steiner]

I would love some 94 octane. Man I'm jealous. Tell me again why CA is so great. Is it the insane cost of living, high taxes, horrible traffic, high crime, upcoming $4 bridge tolls...oh wait that's it. It's the nice weather. :roll:

[guntings]

I really haven't been impressed with the gains from these $1500.00 econoturbos. Shit, I can get 30 extra whp by just installing a friggin test pipe. C'mon now! As with all the other "holy grail" type-stock-looking-bolt-in-aftermarket-turbos for the evolution, the proof is in the pudding, I guess.

But this 20g-9 shows some real promise. The question is who is going to be the first one with a relatively stock evo (stock ecu- no ems/ 91 octane) to test this on a reliable mustang dyno???.....although....I might be really tempted this time to "pull the trigger"... :twisted:

[earlyapex]

I really haven't been impressed with the gains from these $1500.00 econoturbos. Shit, I can get 30 extra whp by just installing a friggin test pipe.

I have $50 sitting right here for when you get 30whp from a test pipe. Let me know when you do it.

Cams yes, test pipe, no.

[guntings]

I have $50 sitting right here for when you get 30whp from a test pipe. Let me know when you do it.

Cams yes, test pipe, no.

Bryan,

You're missing my point.

Regardless of wether or not I can get 30 whp out of a test pipe is really irrelevent...

[earlyapex]

I have $50 sitting right here for when you get 30whp from a test pipe. Let me know when you do it.

Cams yes, test pipe, no.

Bryan,

You're missing my point.

Regardless of wether or not I can get 30 whp out of a test pipe is really irrelevent...

No I got your point but then after your point (that the stock hybrid turbos aren't all that) you said you can get 30whp out of a testpipe which we all know is totally false and recockulious.

btw. People tried alot of hybrid turbos in the DSM days and they where about the same, a let down.

[300kpa]

The question is who is going to be the first one with a relatively stock evo (stock ecu- no ems/ 91 octane) to test this on a reliable mustang dyno???

Just a FYI, aside from the added lag, you won't see much gain from any bigger turbo without properlt retuning the boost level, AFR, and ignition timing. Stock ECU programmed for stock turbo, which spools differently, suck in different amount of air, and produce air at different temperature, etc. Not to mention the bigger turbo allows to boost a higher without producing hotter air.

So, I think it's fair to say that "The question is who is going to be the first one with a relatively stock evo (tuned/ 91 octane) to test this on a reliable mustang dyno AFTER its tuned".

[300kpa]

But for real, I am satisfy if I can get 30WHP if it spools fater or just as fast as stock turbo.

[guntings]

So, I think it's fair to say that "The question is who is going to be the first one with a relatively stock evo (tuned/ 91 octane) to test this on a reliable mustang dyno AFTER its tuned".


That's what I meant when I mentioned "stock ecu'.

Of course you have to tune the ecu every time you get another mod on your car; esp. when you get a new turbo.

That's already a given.

[DaveLC2]

Just curious how boost control is with these hybrid turbos? My friend has a hybrid set up turbo on his GN and it's like run away boost. You can't even hit WOT cause it's making 28+psi! Even with the WG disconnected it's making 20+psi :shock:

Dave

[guntings]

Just curious how boost control is with these hybrid turbos? My friend has a hybrid set up turbo on his GN and it's like run away boost. You can't even hit WOT cause it's making 28+psi! Even with the WG disconnected it's making 20+psi :shock:

Dave


I guess there's really only one way to find out, huh?

B.T.W., I'm even getting constant boost spike on my stock turbo. Maybe it's my apex-i intake but I'm always hitting fuel cut @ 25+ psi whenever I floor it.

I'm hoping that I can alleviate the problem by installing an ams intercooler and helix cooler piping, thereby dropping the boost levels a tad.

[crctslt]

Just curious how boost control is with these hybrid turbos? My friend has a hybrid set up turbo on his GN and it's like run away boost. You can't even hit WOT cause it's making 28+psi! Even with the WG disconnected it's making 20+psi :shock:

Dave

Your buddy's GN has a good case of boost creep.

Boost creep occurs when you cannot bypass enough of the exhaust flow through the wastegate and you get uncontrolable boost.
i.e. the wastegate is too small

[vtluu]

Boost creep occurs when you cannot bypass enough of the exhaust flow through the wastegate and you get uncontrolable boost.
i.e. the wastegate is too small
My buddy had that problem with his GVR4. He ported the wastegate and installed a larger flapper--problem solved.

[earlyapex]

B.T.W., I'm even getting constant boost spike on my stock turbo. Maybe it's my apex-i intake but I'm always hitting fuel cut @ 25+ psi whenever I floor it.
I'm hoping that I can alleviate the problem by installing an ams intercooler and helix cooler piping, thereby dropping the boost levels a tad.

hahha, I think you are the first person that is trying to solve an overboost issue by introducing more pressure drop. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Are you still running stock boost control? No reflash?

[MarkSAE]

We have the opposite problem of boost creep on our turbos. The wastegate passages flow too well, which is one of the main factors causing boost taper.

[guntings]

hahha, I think you are the first person that is trying to solve an overboost issue by introducing more pressure drop. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Are you still running stock boost control? No reflash?


I am actually running a full turboback w/ test pipe, 272s, and an apex-i cone with a works p2 tying it all together.

And why can't you fix overboost by introducing pressure drop. I figure if it's doing one thing (like overboosting), then do the opposite...no???

[guntings]

And it's not like I'm dropping it drastically. With the AMS cooler, there is an average pressure drop of about 1lb.

[earlyapex]

I am actually running a full turboback w/ test pipe, 272s, and an apex-i cone with a works p2 tying it all together.

And why can't you fix overboost by introducing pressure drop. I figure if it's doing one thing (like overboosting), then do the opposite...no???

Because throwing parts at a boost control problem is not the correct nor safe thing to do. Get the P2 boost control tuned for it. It's just changing the soleniod duty cycles.

[dohcvtec]

hahha, I think you are the first person that is trying to solve an overboost issue by introducing more pressure drop. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Are you still running stock boost control? No reflash?


I am actually running a full turboback w/ test pipe, 272s, and an apex-i cone with a works p2 tying it all together.

And why can't you fix overboost by introducing pressure drop. I figure if it's doing one thing (like overboosting), then do the opposite...no???
If I were to trouble shoot a problem, I would look at a mod that is controlling the boost, say your P2. Get that straightend out and that should cure your boost problem. Like Bryan said, throwing parts at it is the wrong way to solve the problem.

[vtluu]

FYI, my P2 used to overboost to 24-25 psi under certain circumstances, e.g. at the track. I never figured out why it wasn't consistent about it; all I know is that once I installed the Nisei IC piping, then it would constantly overboost to 24-25 psi, pretty much any time I stayed WOT and the turbo spooled up. I used an XEDE to verify that trimming back the duty cycle on the BCS could fix the problem--in other words, had I kept the P2, I could have taken it to WORKS and have them scale down the boost control map.

[guntings]

Thanks a ton, Tam.

I'll talk to pete and get him to scale down the bcs.

[earlyapex]

Thanks a ton, Tam.

I'll talk to pete and get him to scale down the bcs.

I see how it is, you'll listen to Tam telling you the same thing I did, but not me. :evil: :lol:

[evo_dadi]

its a works thing :wink: :lol:

[earlyapex]

its a works thing :wink: :lol:

What is? Their terrible boost control or people not listening to what I say?

[dohcvtec]

its a works thing :wink: :lol:

What is? Their terrible boost control or people not listening to what I say?
both.
:)

[evo_dadi]

its a works thing :wink: :lol:

What is? Their terrible boost control or people not listening to what I say?

both :axe: