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View Full Version : The quest for 333whp on Gruppe-S dyno!



SJCoruja
03-09-2006, 11:27 PM
I decided to start a new thread here - I have always wanted to hit 300whp and have now, so I've upped my goal just a bit. :wink: Would love to hear your thoughts and questions here, and will be keeping track of how things progress.

Why 333? Well, 350 seemed a bit crazy on my daily driver...so I just made something else up. Plus, if I end up making more it will be SWEET! haha

As you all know, thanks to some damn fine work by Mike and the guys at Gruppe-S my car put down 300whp/280tq on their dyno. Power mods were Evo IX turbo, 02housing, 3"DP, HFC, Greddy catback, 264/272 cams, cam gears, MBC at 21psi, FP and 720cc injectors. Ecutek tuned.

http://my.prostreetonline.com/album/SJCoruja/Dyno215.jpg


SO, where is the power hiding? For starters, the cat is holding back some power. Switching to a test pipe will for sure help. I personally would really like to pull this off with a Helix HFC, so may try to go that route and make power around it. Also the cams - we are getting a bit of noise that was possibly throwing the ECU off and not giving up some timing it should. And of course going to straight 272s or even 280s should really open up some more. I also think there may be a bit more power to be found in playing around more with the cam gear settings. Lastly, adding a race gas tune will give a nice jump. But is that enough...

earlyapex
03-09-2006, 11:41 PM
Playing with your cam gears will help. I gained 12 whp from that.

Race gas will for sure help. I went from 301 to 320 with 100 octane, upping the boost and tuning for it. The IX turbo will probably make even more power with higher boost so you could probably easily hit 333 with 100 octane.

My 100 octane tune was a really safe open-track tune as well.

Straight 272's might help. I haven't seen a HUGE difference on normal evos with them though.

IC pipes maybe? I'm putting mine on soon and will try to dyno with them.

Porting might help but you would have to take all the turbo bits off again.

Btw, I noticed increased noise with cams as well. I think its normal.

No cat will for sure help. PM me and I can tell you something more. :)

SJCoruja
03-09-2006, 11:54 PM
Thanks for all your input both before and now amigo! I am pretty hopeful I can hit my goal and possilby a bit more. Took the first step tonight...safety first, so had to get something to data log and of course tune on top of the flash for a second race gas map.


http://www.norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/album81/day_shots_062.sized.jpg

MarkSAE
03-10-2006, 12:09 AM
A larger fmic will definitely help w/ dyno #s, but may not necessarily help make your car faster on the road.

earlyapex
03-10-2006, 12:20 AM
A larger fmic will definitely help w/ dyno #s, but may not necessarily help make your car faster on the road.

Wouldn't a larger FMIC take longer to heatsoak, but also take longer to cool off from heat soak on a dyno?

There is no airflow whatsoever except for the fans at gruppe-s, which is another reason why it's hard to make big numbers there.

MarkSAE
03-10-2006, 12:37 AM
Wouldn't a larger FMIC take longer to heatsoak, but also take longer to cool off from heat soak on a dyno?

There is no airflow whatsoever except for the fans at gruppe-s, which is another reason why it's hard to make big numbers there.

Yes, the larger FMIC will take longer to heat soak. It also has the ability to dump heat faster w/ a larger volume and more surface area.

I think the stock FMIC w/ road going airflow will have enough cooling capacity for stockish boost levels, but may have some heat soak issues on the dyno w/ little airflow. The larger FMIC will definitely help keep air temps lower on the dyno w/ little airflow.

I'm sure the advantages of having a larger FMIC will be more significant in warmer weather.

earlyapex
03-10-2006, 12:56 AM
What if I put one of those window air conditioner radiator things in the front of my car?

http://ssl.linuxbeach.net/LinuxBeach/images/items/GoldStar-AC.jpg

MarkSAE
03-10-2006, 12:58 AM
Cooler air being fanned towards the car will always help. Tell Mike to invest in one of those!

leif
03-10-2006, 01:02 AM
a greddy fmic made my friends 30r laggier than before....i dunno if that applies to stock turbos but be forewarned about that mod, cuz he's pretty pissed about it.

crctslt
03-10-2006, 01:09 AM
Larger FMIC = more intake tract volume = more lag.

craziazzmofo66
03-10-2006, 02:07 AM
Larger FMIC = more intake tract volume = more lag.

= time for better turbo :lol:

XVeloX
03-10-2006, 02:33 AM
Well i don't think you have enough power from the turbo to consider most of these things, and they probably will have little to no difference, but here's a few things that came to mind that you could check out...

Intake Mani, Throttle Body, alcohol or water inj, turbo manifold (results soon to be tested next time i go to get tuned at EIP), radiatior, IC pipes should help, Ti valves/springs/retainers, fuel rail, obviously the HFC to TP, playing with CG's, even bigger injectors (probably will be pointless with that turbo), 280's might make a difference but could be overkill and lose some driveability down low. or shit just get a 2.3L stroker kit :P or get on the bottle :lol:

ya FMIC could help, but some have terrible pressure drops and can make it laggy. The one we put in on spoolin's sharpened up throttle response... dunno about power, but he made like 279 with TBE, but stock cat, MBC, 269's and a tune...

earlyapex
03-10-2006, 11:12 AM
Well i don't think you have enough power from the turbo to consider most of these things, and they probably will have little to no difference, but here's a few things that came to mind that you could check out...

You say that, then....



Intake Mani, Throttle Body, alcohol or water inj, turbo manifold, radiatior, IC pipes should help, Ti valves/springs/retainers, fuel rail, obviously the HFC to TP, playing with CG's, even bigger injectors

rofl? Now that is some funnayz shizzle.

Unowned
03-10-2006, 12:22 PM
Larger FMIC = more intake tract volume = more lag.

Yes so to offset this difference in volume of air the turbo needs to reach Boost... get some Shorter intercooler piping... like the Nisei kit

gOt BoOsT
03-10-2006, 12:22 PM
meth inj. should be able to take you to 340ish...my $0.02

SJCoruja
03-10-2006, 12:31 PM
I am looking in to a different IC and also the Helix piping (would have snagged a used set but somebody beat me to it :wink: ) . Is that a shorter piping though, or just stock aluminum replacement?

Also looking at the Maxford manifold too...


Should've clarified, but I am going to stay away from any extra fluids LOL! No water or meth injection, and no nitrous.

earlyapex
03-10-2006, 12:55 PM
Should've clarified, but I am going to stay away from any extra fluids LOL! No water or meth injection, and no nitrous.

Good idea. :wink:

spoolin
03-10-2006, 04:39 PM
As Xvelox said earlier, some intercoolers are better than others.. but upgrading ur IC will just not be enough to get up into the 333s. First step is most likely getting a 100 oct map to UP those numbers a bit and crank up the boost. Then uhhh... well... garrett turbo???

dohcvtec
03-10-2006, 05:15 PM
meth inj. should be able to take you to 340ish...my $0.02
And you know what I think about that. STAY AWAY! :)

SJCoruja
03-10-2006, 05:16 PM
My guess is if I only added the 100 octane tune I should be able to get 320-325 no problem with the IX turbo. I am just trying to figure out the other supporting reliable mods I need to go with to hit that 333 or above.

Or course in reality none of the dyno numbers will matter - real difference will be more track time I have coming up to make the loose nut behind the wheel just a bit tighter. :D

Unowned
03-10-2006, 06:43 PM
I am looking in to a different IC and also the Helix piping (would have snagged a used set but somebody beat me to it :wink: ) . Is that a shorter piping though, or just stock aluminum replacement?

Helix is replacement stock that routes along the stock battery and doesn't shorten as much as a minibattery and new routing

L84AD8
03-11-2006, 01:38 AM
Nice numbers SJ! :P 8)

mygsx
03-11-2006, 10:04 AM
What if I put one of those window air conditioner radiator things in the front of my car?

http://ssl.linuxbeach.net/LinuxBeach/images/items/GoldStar-AC.jpg :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hey Bryan what ic pipes are you going to install into your car? 8)

SJCoruja
07-27-2006, 03:05 PM
--continued from "Engine Grendading 101"--


Woohoo...I have entered the lair. :D


...and as you can see, entered with a damn fine knock spike around 6200rpms. This was my first and only pull I was able to do this morning before work. I will be doing multiple pulls later this afternoon so will know more later...


http://norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10668/normal_First%20run%20ecu%20shot.jpg

http://norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10668/normal_First%20run%20dyno%20shot.jpg

SJCoruja
07-27-2006, 03:07 PM
Updated with the new street dyno settings :( Car has made 300whp - 280/300tq at both Gruppe-S & EIP, but street dyno says 248/267.

I am hopeful though that it may have been a fluke. I will do several pulls tonight to check the consistent results.

http://norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10668/normal_First%20run%20dyno%20shot%20corrected.jpg

SJCoruja
08-19-2006, 11:40 PM
Latest updates: Finally got my map sensor installed (with tons of much appreciated help from Matz), and have been doing lots of logs. I have also started playing around with lowering some timing, adding a bit of fuel, and lowering the boost. CapDB0001 was 23psi, Untitled7 is only 20psi. Though the peak torque is way down, the curves look smoother to me and the top end is doing much better now. I am now going to play around with slowly adding more boost back up to about 21.5/22 psi at most. I think that will help to bring back more of the torque and will increase the even area under the curves. Thoughts, advice, and discussion always welcome and appreciated!

http://norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10668/normal_Before%20%26%20after.jpg

SJCoruja
10-07-2006, 11:42 PM
Update - getting warmer!

http://norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10668/normal_100oct%20tune.jpg


Have found the right settings on ECU+ dyno that makes it about even at wtq with the Gruppe-S dyno. For some reason though I am always about 30whp low on my top end. Have done the comparison with plenty of pulls, but that has stayed constant. With that thought, I am around 320whp, 315wtq! This is with 24.5 psi and mild timing/fuel adjustments.

Matz
10-11-2006, 08:39 PM
Man, I've been missing this thread! Lookin' good Matt!

hey, by the way, it looks like you actually got your Palm database file into your computer. How did you do that? I installed Palm Desktop, then ECU+, and I still can't get the damn Capxxxx files into ECU+. :(

SJCoruja
10-13-2006, 11:59 AM
Yeah, the car is really nice on 100 octane. I actually think there may be a bit more power to be had...thought I was getting a bit of knock, but turns out it may just be my plugs needing to be replaced. Have a new set of NGKs coming so will update once I can play around with the tune a bit more.

UCB
10-13-2006, 12:00 PM
do you run one step colder plugs?

SJCoruja
10-13-2006, 12:03 PM
do you run one step colder plugs?


Yes, have been running the NGK BPR8EIX for the last year.

MitsuMan
10-13-2006, 01:18 PM
what about if you put on of those mist tents in the dyno room like they have at amusment parks that would cool things down and maybe the tires too loll

Matt I am going to beat you sooner or later If I had my druthers I'd have my meth kit and tuned and then have a 100oct/meth map too biatch
yea taking out the cat is good for about 20hp and bad for about 20,000 penguins not to mention how loud your stuff will be.

Whistle tip????!!!!!!

SJCoruja
10-05-2007, 02:15 PM
Back from the dead...ah, the good old days when hitting 300whp was hard, and going beyond was crazy. :D I figured I'd close out this thread since it looks like I've finally made it. :thumbsup:

green lines - 91 octane stock IX turbo
blue lines - 91 octane FP Green turbo
red lines - 100 octane FP Green tubo (tune in progress)


http://www.norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10668/before%20and%20after%7E0.jpg

earlyapex aka jack ass
10-05-2007, 02:19 PM
Damn boy how much boost you running on 100? 50wtq gain

SJCoruja
10-05-2007, 02:26 PM
I thought you said 29psi was safe? :lol: Nah, only at 25.3psi but for some reason the torque is reading REALLY high. My guess is that I have used a correction factor on the dyno settings to get it to read more in line with what the dyno is (because I'm a geek like that), and as the numbers go up that correction skews them more. Torque is probably more in the 300-310 range I believe. Of course, if you had an open spot tomorrow on the dyno....? :D

atlvalet
10-05-2007, 10:28 PM
If you're gonna bump an old thread I'm gonna whore for Bryan's mad tunaz skilzz, boi!!!!

Here's your 333 on 91 right here:

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z230/atlvalet/erik_d_power91oct.jpg

SJCoruja
10-06-2007, 10:16 PM
Bryan's mad tunaz skilzz, boi!!!!



+11venty billion! LOL

Bryan was able to get me in to the dyno today, and as always was awesome about helping me out and answering all my questions. When all was said and done, we ended up with 354/330 on the GST dyno, and the ECU+ dyno is below (settings corrected on the ECU+). I know that cams would add a bit more under the curve, but not prepared to make the leap yet as I'm quite happy with these results for the track and still stand by the joke title of my other thread. :lol:


http://www.norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10668/before%20and%20after%7E1.jpg

wilson1
10-06-2007, 11:02 PM
damn Matt, crazy power!!!!!!

MadEvo
10-07-2007, 09:37 AM
damn Matt, crazy power!!!!!!


+1

georges06evo
10-07-2007, 10:44 AM
Bryan's mad tunaz skilzz, boi!!!!



+11venty billion! LOL

Bryan was able to get me in to the dyno today, and as always was awesome about helping me out and answering all my questions. When all was said and done, we ended up with 354/330 on the GST dyno, and the ECU+ dyno is below (settings corrected on the ECU+). I know that cams would add a bit more under the curve, but not prepared to make the leap yet as I'm quite happy with these results for the track and still stand by the joke title of my other thread. :lol:


http://www.norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10668/before%20and%20after%7E1.jpg


Did you do this on a stock turbo?

SJCoruja
10-07-2007, 11:00 AM
Stock turbo variant - Forced Performance Green turbo.

wilson1
10-07-2007, 12:11 PM
what's the spool on it?
What's the rpm for 20psi on a 3rd gear pull?

earlyapex aka jack ass
10-07-2007, 01:02 PM
what's the spool on it?
What's the rpm for 20psi on a 3rd gear pull?


About 3300 or so if I remember correctly. They spool well if the setup is done well.

SJCoruja
10-08-2007, 09:26 AM
Yep, 3300 is just about right. I will post up the boost plot and dyno once I can get them scanned...very happy with the spool!

DoggDicker
10-08-2007, 09:44 AM
Nice numbers Matt...awesome t00ning Bryan...

DD

earlyapex aka jack ass
10-08-2007, 10:56 AM
Nice numbers Matt...awesome t00ning Bryan...

DD


Matt did most of his 100 octane tune via ECU+. I just helped and gave him pointers on the dyno. :)

gOt BoOsT
10-29-2007, 12:14 PM
who holds record #'s on green...brian you were 375 ish while back right??

gOt BoOsT
10-29-2007, 12:15 PM
i might just go green...

atlvalet
10-29-2007, 12:19 PM
who holds record #'s on green...brian you were 375 ish while back right??



Someone just set the new 91 record for the Green (and broke my record in the process :) )

340whp. I am waiting for Bryan to post the tasty charts and info :D

I don't intend to sit on my laurels, however. :)

dohcvtec
10-29-2007, 12:24 PM
Ya, I think the 375 was on 100 octane

ST
10-29-2007, 12:45 PM
Someone just set the new 91 record for the Green (and broke my record in the process :) )

340whp. I am waiting for Bryan to post the tasty charts and info :D

I don't intend to sit on my laurels, however. :)


I would take those GST numbers with a grain of salt, given that they don't use dynamic SAE temp related corrections, especially on the cooler days of late. So your numbers, fwiw, may still be safe.

earlyapex aka jack ass
10-29-2007, 01:06 PM
Yes we do not use a weather station so the power is what it is at that time.

When we can set weather corrections on cars while we drive them on the road and track so the power output changes artificially in relation to the standard SAE 75 degrees no matter what the current weather is, then maybe I will look into using a weather station on the dyno.

PANGES
10-29-2007, 01:12 PM
AHH!!! No more fighting about dyno's! lol. Not again..

ST
10-29-2007, 01:17 PM
Yes we do not use a weather station so the power is what it is at that time.

When we can set weather corrections on cars while we drive them on the road and track so the power output changes artificially in relation to the standard SAE 75 degrees no matter what the current weather is, then maybe I will look into using a weather station on the dyno.




Do you understand the relevance of calibration at all or is the concept of scientific and precise measurement totally foreign to you? Comparing A stat on day X to B stat on day Y without any leveling is both pointless and stupid. And unless you intend to dyno while on a track, i see no releveance to that statement whatsoever and merely a misdirection, or are you trying to downplay the significance of proper dynoing (should I remind you of your tirade on "corrupted" power outputs?).

Ben
10-29-2007, 01:18 PM
*Gasp* Threadjack!

ST
10-29-2007, 01:18 PM
AHH!!! No more fighting about dyno's! lol. Not again..


maybe we should talk about GG evo's instead?! :X

earlyapex aka jack ass
10-29-2007, 01:28 PM
who holds record #'s on green...brian you were 375 ish while back right??



374whp/348wtq, on 100 octane when I first got the green.

Danny did 371whp/325wtq on 100 octane. Erik was 363whp/327wtq and we did one on 100+meth that isn't quite finished yet that has done 366whp/345wtq.... and a bunch in 35X territory.

EFIxMR
10-29-2007, 01:59 PM
AHH!!! No more fighting about dyno's! lol. Not again..


maybe we should talk about GG evo's instead?! :X


Panges car is the shit now, he is officially "that guy"

PANGES
10-29-2007, 04:04 PM
AHH!!! No more fighting about dyno's! lol. Not again..


maybe we should talk about GG evo's instead?! :X


Panges car is the shit now, he is officially "that guy"


Not yet! lol.