aftermarket cam questions...

[Steiner]

I've decided to get aftermarket cams. Unfortunately that's the only thing I'm certain of right now. My current setup is a 70mm DP, 3" HFC, and 3" CB. The car is flashed and dyno tuned. I'm still on the stock injectors and fuel pump. Future plans are to get a bigger turbo...maybe a 50 trim or 20G IX. I'm not interested in buying different cams later on though. I'm also trying to avoid idle issues or buying cam gears. The application is going to be about 99% street and an occasional track day. So here it is...

- Which combo do I go with: 264/264, 264/272 or 272/272?
- Can I wait to upgrade the injectors and/or fuel pump?
- Which manufacturer's cams should I go with?

I appreciate it guys. I've been searching EvoM for days but there is so much contradictory info. People running on stock cams talk like they know, and people running on aftermarket cams argue like schoolgirls. Then the tuners and vendors jump in. :roll:

[earlyapex]

Since you mentioned idle issues I would go with the 264/272 combo and a fuel pump. The 264/272 combo is a nice compromise.

A competent tuner should be able to dial out most of the remaining lump as well.

[Matz]

I don't have personal experience yet, but from what I've read, you should upgrade the injectors since when you tune it, you'll see the stockers running at over 90% duty cycle -- scary. I'm on the stockers, but I'm driving very very carefully until my new 720cc injectors come in.

[gOt BoOsT]

as long as your not venting to atmosphere you'll be ok with 272/272 @ 0/0...i only had idle issues when trying to vent 40% to atmosphere. HKS

[SJCoruja]

Hmm...I'd have to give a +1 to the 264/272 combo. Perfect idle, good low end for daily driving, and do give plenty up top if you need it.

[MitsuMan]

any time you vent your PSI to the atmos you will have drivability probs no matter if you have cams or not. If I were you I'd go with the 264/272 combo. you'll still pass smog and the stock injectors and pump will still work. Pluss the idle isn't bad(but what do you expect with changing cams). I don't care what you drive, changing cams will change your idle, it's suposed to. you should yeild about 40 more horse or so with a good tune. OH YEa and why are you not going to install your cams with them properly degreed? Dregreeing the cams via adjustable gears is part of what gives you the power. :roll:

[earlyapex]

as long as your not venting to atmosphere you'll be ok with 272/272 @ 0/0...i only had idle issues when trying to vent 40% to atmosphere. HKS

I think he was talking about lopey idle, not stalling. :wink:

[Steiner]

Where in the power band are the disadvantages of the 264/272 combo versus the 272/272 combo?


OH YEa and why are you not going to install your cams with them properly degreed? Dregreeing the cams via adjustable gears is part of what gives you the power. :roll:
I know I know. You're right dude. I'm sure there's atleast another 5whp-8whp to be had with cam gears. It's not about the money though. The reason is that I'm really concerned with all of these fucking cops asking us to pop our hoods nowadays after a routine traffic stop. There's no hiding those cam gears as far as I know. I've gone to great lengths in my mod path to make my car look stock from the outside...RS*R ExMag exhaust, Ultimate Racing HFC, stock intake/airbox, etc.

And yeah Bryan is right. I'm not concerned with a lopey idle. Just the car dying at idle. BTW...I forgot to mention that after the cams are installed the car's going back to Mike for another flash and dyno tune.

[SouthBayGSR]

Where in the power band are the disadvantages of the 264/272 combo versus the 272/272 combo?


OH YEa and why are you not going to install your cams with them properly degreed? Dregreeing the cams via adjustable gears is part of what gives you the power. :roll:
I know I know. You're right dude. I'm sure there's atleast another 5whp-8whp to be had with cam gears. It's not about the money though. The reason is that I'm really concerned with all of these fucking cops asking us to pop our hoods nowadays after a routine traffic stop. There's no hiding those cam gears as far as I know. I've gone to great lengths in my mod path to make my car look stock from the outside...RS*R ExMag exhaust, Ultimate Racing HFC, stock intake/airbox, etc.

And yeah Bryan is right. I'm not concerned with a lopey idle. Just the car dying at idle. BTW...I forgot to mention that after the cams are installed the car's going back to Mike for another flash and dyno tune.

Well I'm assuming if you ever have to take your car to a smog ref for whatever reason, that they wouldn't pull the timing belt cover exposing the gears, right?? I'm not sure of this but if you want cam gears ever in the future, you might as well do it when you put the cams in and save yourself alot of effort later on!

And listen to Mitsuman and I'm sure anyone else running the 264/272 combo, it is perfect! The idle barely lopes, and actually sounds pretty sexy, in that crazy 4-cylinder lope kind of way :D

[evo_dadi]

hey steiner the hks cam gears clears the stock cover,its only the fidanza and vishnu cam gears that needs shaving done to the cover.i have the cover on the hks cam gears on mine 8)

[Steiner]

hey steiner the hks cam gears clears the stock cover,its only the fidanza and vishnu cam gears that needs shaving done to the cover.i have the cover on the hks cam gears on mine 8)
So you're saying that the HKS cam gears are visually undetectable?

[evo_dadi]

yep,the stock cam gear cover fits mine w/o any shaving done to it.

[earlyapex]

So you're saying that the HKS cam gears are visually undetectable?

Yes, my HKS gears are under my stock cam gear cover, you would have no idea that I had them.

apart from my blue greddy coolant temp adapter and small battery, my engine bay looks 100% stock.

[Steiner]

Hmmm tempting. Food for thought. Thanks guys.

NorCal Evo > EvoM X 10 8)

[nebolic]

any time you vent your PSI to the atmos you will have drivability probs no matter if you have cams or not. If I were you I'd go with the 264/272 combo. you'll still pass smog and the stock injectors and pump will still work. Pluss the idle isn't bad(but what do you expect with changing cams). I don't care what you drive, changing cams will change your idle, it's suposed to. you should yeild about 40 more horse or so with a good tune. OH YEa and why are you not going to install your cams with them properly degreed? Dregreeing the cams via adjustable gears is part of what gives you the power. :roll:

i'm idling fine with my 269 cams, and i vent my bov to the atmosphere and i have no stalling/idling issue. I love the JDM Ricer sound!!!

:D

nebo

[Steiner]

I bought a set of 264/272 HKS cams. They're on the way. The car still has the OEM injectors and fuel pump. Am I taking a risk by using the stock fuel system?

[earlyapex]

I would at least get the pump. Its cheap and easy to install.

[Steiner]

Yeah. It would probably be silly not to do it. Methunk it but had to hear it from somebody else. 8) What about new headstuds? Overkill?

BTW...what kind of duty cycle were your stock injectors running at on the 272/272 setup with Mike's pump gas tune?

[earlyapex]

What about new headstuds? Overkill?

I would do headstuds if you have the extra $100. You're paying for the labor already. I wish I had. I have a box of ARP headstuds sitting on my desk right now waiting to go in...



BTW...what kind of duty cycle were your stock injectors running at on the 272/272 setup with Mike's pump gas tune?

My tune. :wink: I never ran stock injectors with cams. My 720cc's are 80-82% DC at 7500rpm

[Steiner]

Ah OK. Well I'm sold I guess. I'll get the ARP headstuds and a Walbro at the same time. Back to the injectors...until I get some 680's, where can I expect the duty cycle to be at? I guess what I'm asking is will I be on borrowed time or gambling with the stockers for day-to-day driving and the occasional "spirited" pull to redline?

[earlyapex]

Ah OK. Well I'm sold I guess. I'll get the ARP headstuds and a Walbro at the same time. Back to the injectors...until I get some 680's, where can I expect the duty cycle to be at? I guess what I'm asking is will I be on borrowed time or gambling with the stockers for day-to-day driving and the occasional "spirited" pull to redline?

You'll be fine with them on the street with a good tune. Shiv / vishnu doesn't use upgrade injectors in his stage 1+ which is adding cams/camgears and approx 290whp on his DD dyno (reads a little lower than the gruppe-s dyno)

[Steiner]

I'm in good shape then. Mike@Gruppe-S = good tune

[EVO GRIM]

When I called ahead before my stage 1 tune Shiv said headstuds are overkill also. He's said they dont have the probs like the old dsm's. I'd rather trust the stockers than releasing one at a time and replacing. That seems like it could cause a leak.

[bdking57]

Doesnt the proper install of head studs require alot more then just tightening them? EIP talked me out of head studs and said something like.. if you wanted them installed right it was going to take some time.. i.e. put the valve cover back on.. running the car, taking it back off and re-tightening..etc. It seems to be like none of the shops really even want to deal with the added liability of installing them.

Also.. if your going to increase the strength of one area, well isnt that just going to redirect force the the next weakest link? No one was able to answer that question so I decided to stay away.

[earlyapex]

Also.. if your going to increase the strength of one area, well isnt that just going to redirect force the the next weakest link? No one was able to answer that question so I decided to stay away.

Yes, you are right. With headstuds, your headgasket is now an even weaker leak.

I used to say that headstuds aren't required. I still don't think they are if you are staying on pump gas boost.

If you are beating the car on the track all day long with race gas boost I would recommend it. If you don't believe me, come over at the meet this saturday and ask me how fun coolant all over your front tires is when you are braking for turn 10 at thunderhill. :shock:

[AreSTG]

I bought a set of 264/272 HKS cams. They're on the way. The car still has the OEM injectors and fuel pump. Am I taking a risk by using the stock fuel system?


where did u get cams? all the local places are out of 272's and i want to buy asap

[SpeedElement]

we got cosworth cams for sale if you are interested :)

[Steiner]

Is there any harm in installing the new fuel pump (before Gruppe-S installs the cams) and then driving around for a few days without a new tune?

[earlyapex]

Is there any harm in installing the new fuel pump (before Gruppe-S installs the cams) and then driving around for a few days without a new tune?

No, not at all. You will barely notice a difference except for the car being slower. :wink:

[Steiner]

I finally bought the fuel pump from import image racing for $85. I know I already asked but I want to make sure. If I install the new fuel pump on the 24th and don't do the cam install/tune until the following week am I going to notice any driveability issues or be causing any damage by cruising around on the new pump for a few days. I apologize if this is a stupid question but I don't want to do any damage to the engine or fuel management system.

[EvoRicer]

I finally bought the fuel pump from import image racing for $85. I know I already asked but I want to make sure. If I install the new fuel pump on the 24th and don't do the cam install/tune until the following week am I going to notice any driveability issues or be causing any damage by cruising around on the new pump for a few days. I apologize if this is a stupid question but I don't want to do any damage to the engine or fuel management system.


Nothing. I drive with my Walbro without a tune or flash....