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View Full Version : cracked 300 whp on 91 on EIP's dyno



EFIxMR
05-04-2006, 03:55 AM
On a customers car... it has a whole slew of mods, some of which are very bling, so you naysayers get your nay saying ready :wink:

tq was at 280 lowest run / 284 highest run

As a reference here are some numbers from the EIP dyno meet back in January.


1. DaveLC2 - 181WHP / 179TQ - had boost leak (only 13psi), 03 TB Evo VIII with K&N drop in, Buschur Racing axle back

2. reglaranang - 228WHP / 197.6TQ (3rd gear), 284.7WHP / 280.6TQ (4th gear) - Ecutek

3. Darwinator - 230WHP - Evo IX RS with WORKS AB, HKS hyperground wires, WORKS drop in air filter

4. 06evoM4 - 230WHP / 232TQ - Stock 06 Evo IX MR

5. Matz - 222WHP / 231TQ - 03 AS Evo VIII with WORKS TR303, WORKS 76mm DP, K&N drop in filter

6. EVO GRIM - 279WHP / 250TQ - 03 AS Evo VIII with turbo back, piper cams, throttle body, xede, intercooler and pipes

7. EVILutionVIII - 276WHP / 275TQ - 03 Evo VIII with TB exhaust w/cat delete, exhaust manifold, intake, 272 cams, cam gears, safc2, mail in dynoflash, fuel pump, mbc

8. wrx2evo8 - 249whp/245tq 03 EvoVIII - Buschur intake, Buschur TB w/HFC, HKS 272's, walbro 255, custom road tune dynoflash, Helix U/L IC piping, [email protected]

9.DRFTR8 - 280whp/305tq 03 EvoIII- BG 264/272,K&N drop in,DP, HKS catback,MBC@22 drops to 18,ECUTEC,works throttle body,walbro fuel pump.

10. Stormtrooper - 277.2whp/ 252.6tq Works TR340 minus throttle body, works high flow cat, FP WR turbo w/ actuator. Boost level at 1.2 bar (a bit under 18psi).


I believe this dyno is a tough one.

Key component was the 20G EVO8 turbo the one that is supposed to surge, but i somehow managed to tame it with my AEM kung-fu. The drivability on the car partial throttle around town is excellent.

details are...

11.2-11.3 afr
22 psi peak taper to 18 psi

don't have the graph up yet but will soon. interesting note is that it carries 300 whp for a nice portion on the top end all the way to ignition cut...

there is a loss of tq around 3500-3800 due to the 280 intake and exhaust cams.

we are going to try another boost controller on there and see if we can get the boost to hold better. i'd also like to see atleast 23 psi peak.

Thanks to Paul at EIP for his expertise on the cam gear tuning and advice in general. 11.5 and 119 mph doesn't happen on accident!

One thing to note is even before we dynoed it, and I had just been working with the tune on the street, people who've driven this car have said that it was funner to drive than the big turbo car that we also did.

And that is making my decision on my own upgrade path very difficult.

L84AD8
05-04-2006, 05:36 AM
Excellent! :thumbsup:

wilson1
05-04-2006, 11:03 AM
One thing to note is even before we dynoed it, and I had just been working with the tune on the street, people who've driven this car have said that it was funner to drive than the big turbo car that we also did.

And that is making my decision on my own upgrade path very difficult.

so you are holding off the GT42? :D

earlyapex
05-04-2006, 11:43 AM
So what are the mods?

Nice numbers. Holding 300 to the rev limiter sounds nice, post the chart when you can!

Steiner
05-04-2006, 01:05 PM
So his mods are 20G and...

MitsuMan
05-04-2006, 01:52 PM
he said he has the big 280 cams too

EFIxMR
05-04-2006, 03:16 PM
http://www.speedelement.com/images/efi/20gpump.jpg

mods are

AEM EMS with Speed Density conversion (MAF is still in place)
720 injectors
Fuel pump
Apex AVCR boost control
Denso 8 iridium plugs

hks 280 cams and cam gears
ARP headstuds

20G EVO8 turbo
Full-Race replacement manifold
Tial BOV
HKS intercooler pipes
Greddy intercooler
TBE exhaust

Exedy twin plate clutch
18" volk racing ce28 wheels falken azenis tires

dohcvtec
05-04-2006, 03:35 PM
Why didn't you guys remove the MAF if you're speed density?

earlyapex
05-04-2006, 03:38 PM
I thought you said it holds 300whp till ignition cut? This charts hp curve stops at 6900rpm.

That spool is llaaaaaagyy, why is that 20G so laggy? Peak trq 1,000 rpm later than a stock 05 turbo? Why do you say spool is effected by the 280s? You can tune the gears to help with spool.

The trq peaks at 4750 then drops like a rock, most 16g type turbos hit trq peak and stabilize for a bit then gradually fall off.

The chart just looks so peaky. Comparing it to some 300whp stock 05 turbo cars and its making almost 50whp less at 3400 rpm and almost 60wtq less at 3400 rpm, then drops off again after 5800rpm

EFIxMR
05-04-2006, 04:53 PM
not sure how you can pinpoint 6900 on that graph. also, that isn't hp drop off you are seeing, that is the dyno stopping its sampling at 7100 rpm.

it works the same way when the dyno starts sampling. do you think the engine at ~2000 rpm is making 0 tq and 0 hp, and it ramps up at that aggressive angle to 50 hp all of a sudden at ~2500?

if you look at the angle of the torque slope after 6775 rpm it is at a low angle. remember hp is a function of tq.

I know for a fact that 280's lose spool, we played with the cam gears and they are optimized already.

I know they lose spool because I had 280's straight, and switched to 272 intake 280 exhaust and gained my lost spool in my previous setup. no tuning changes just a straight cam swap.

In my opinion 300 whp on this dyno is alot. Stormtrooper who dynoed back to back between GS made 295 whp and at EIP made 277 whp. Same tune, same boost, same gas, same everything.

If you get the opportunity Brian, you should see what your car makes there so we can compare apples to apples.

earlyapex
05-04-2006, 05:04 PM
not sure how you can pinpoint 6900 on that graph. also, that isn't hp drop off you are seeing, that is the dyno stopping its sampling at 7100 rpm.

ok, sorry 6900ish. :wink:

I know the HP isn't dropping like a rock at the end, that, like you said is where the dyno was set to cut off. But you stated that the car makes 300whp till ignition cut, how can you tell if you are cutting the dyno off at 7100 rpm? Why not set the dyno to stop sampling at 7500 and run the car to the rev limiter so you can show that it is or isn't making 300whp till the rev limiter?



it works the same way when the dyno starts sampling. do you think the engine at ~2000 rpm is making 0 tq and 0 hp, and it ramps up at that aggressive angle to 50 hp all of a sudden at ~2500?

yes, I know how dynos work.



if you look at the angle of the torque slope after 6775 rpm it is at a low angle. remember hp is a function of tq.

It still looks like its making less trq there then I have seen on 300whp stock turbo graphs.



I know for a fact that 280's lose spool, we played with the cam gears and they are optimized already.

I know they lose spool because I had 280's straight, and switched to 272 intake 280 exhaust and gained my lost spool in my previous setup. no tuning changes just a straight cam swap.

I have to take your word on that since I haven't tuned a car with 280s or seen many 280 dyno charts yet. Either way, fact still is its ramping up and hitting peak torque 1,000 rpm later than stock turbos, with no noticable big benefit up top that I can see.



In my opinion 300 whp on this dyno is alot. Stormtrooper who dynoed back to back between GS made 295 whp and at EIP made 277 whp. Same tune, same boost, same gas, same everything.

If you get the opportunity Brian, you should see what your car makes there so we can compare apples to apples.

I should but my major concerns here where the curves. Anyone have a dynochart from EIP with the stock turbo? I've seen 29Xwhp/3XXwtq with stock 05 turbos, non-standalones and less agressive cams come out of EIP.

EFIxMR
05-04-2006, 05:08 PM
Why didn't you guys remove the MAF if you're speed density?

the car was bought to me like that. he has an aem intake and it is designed around the MAF sensor as it is the mounting point. It is not an ideal intake for this setup.

this isn't our shop car, we don't have the liberty to do whatever we want to it. the car came to me with a majority of the mods in place already.

i have advised him to get a different boost control and 272 intake cam. i think that will bring this car where it should be.

earlyapex
05-04-2006, 05:15 PM
I should but my major concerns here where the curves. Anyone have a dynochart from EIP with the stock turbo? I've seen 29Xwhp/3XXwtq with stock 05 turbos, non-standalones and less agressive cams come out of EIP.

here are some:

http://www.norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/album391/DYNO2.sized.jpg

2003 Rally Red Evo

Mods:
10.5 Hot side
Authority SS O2 sensor housing
Apexi GT downpipe
Helix High flow cat
Espiler GT500 catback exhaust
Arc Intake Box
Dejon Tool intake pipe
Turbo XS intercooler
Greddy Upper intercooler piping
Helix Lower intercooler piping
Buddy Club Cams 264/272 w/ HKS Cam Gears
Ralli Art Plug Wires
Splitfire Bridge
SARD 265 lph fuel pump
Apexi AVCR
JDM MR BOV
ECUTEK by Paul @ EIP

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y299/pandasign/dyno.jpg

RnR TBE, K&N drop in, Hallman MBC, Walbro 255lph, AMS LICP, HKS 272 I/E, HKS cam gears, Ecutek tune.

http://www.norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/album293/Sean_Before.sized.jpg

Racers car, lower numbers are 91 octane, 05 evo with 272cams tbc, mbc, 720cc, fuel pump, tuned with safc.

http://www.norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/album293/EIP_EVO8_Stage3_9_13_05.sized.jpg

Evo 8 with stock turbo, stock intercooler, 272 cams, fuel pump and 650 cc injectors and a turbo-back exhaust with EIP EcuTek

Looking at those dyno sheets and the those cars with those mods, I don't think that dyno reads lower than gruppe-s. Also note all the stock turbo trq curves.

leif
05-04-2006, 05:45 PM
i have 280s set at 0,0 and made more tq than a man with 264,272 (other wise identical mods, tuned with the exact same stuff)... 280s do NOT make you lose tq.

earlyapex
05-04-2006, 05:47 PM
i have 280s set at 0,0 and made more tq than a man with 264,272 (other wise identical mods, tuned with the exact same stuff)... 280s do NOT make you lose tq.

But what about the spool up curve? That's what I am talking about here.

leif
05-04-2006, 05:49 PM
i have 280s set at 0,0 and made more tq than a man with 264,272 (other wise identical mods, tuned with the exact same stuff)... 280s do NOT make you lose tq.

But what about the spool up curve? That's what I am talking about here.

umm its fabulous dont worry about it. :P

EFIxMR
05-04-2006, 05:53 PM
a critical piece of info missing from those charts is the boost. on reggie's car he told me that at peak boost it is 25 psi or so which tapers down.

and that is the right way to do it in my opinion to get the big tq. that is why i advised him to switch boost controls as the AVCR is difficult to adjust to attain the characteristics i'd like to see.

If the intention of the customer was to break the pump gas dyno record at EIP, we would have approached this in a different way. Like I said earlier, this isn't our shop car, I can't do whatever I'd like to do with it.

His goal was to reach 300 whp on pump, and I did that for him. He isnt even a member of NorcalEvo nor does he read EVOM to get caught up in these internet hp games.

additionally eip dynos in 4th gear, mine are done in 3rd. but that is not to say those cars don't make big tq. paul is a great tuner like i said earlier 11.5 @ 119 stock turbo is a great accomplishment few cars in the nation have touched that kind of performance numbers.

his tunes are very strong and the numbers you see aren't a result of the dyno and its configuration, it is a result of his technique. It would not be far off to say that the cars he tunes would rank high even on a national level.

EFIxMR
05-04-2006, 07:26 PM
http://www.speedelement.com/images/efi/4thvs3rd.jpg

to give you a difference between 4th and 3rd let me provide you with some further information. the green TQ is the tuned final run in 3rd, and the red TQ is the first run of the day in 4th.

earlyapex
05-04-2006, 09:35 PM
jesus krist the numbers. numbers numbers numbers. Everyone always talking like all I care about is peak numbers when in every arguement about these damn hybrid turbos I always bring up, every gawd damn time, the actual power curves.

The main thing I was asking about is why the damn turbo spools and peaks trq 1,000 rpm later than stock turbos. I was mearly using the peak numbers saying that , ok, it might peak later but does it give more HP up top to even out? No, it doesn't.

I never brought up how you tune or how Paul tunes (btw, why did he even come into this picture?).


http://www.speedelement.com/images/efi/4thvs3rd.jpg

to give you a difference between 4th and 3rd let me provide you with some further information. the green TQ is the tuned final run in 3rd, and the red TQ is the first run of the day in 4th.

Why are we talking about 4th and 3rd gear on the dynos? Why is this even in this discussion? To show how this turbo spooling and hit peak trq 1,000 rpm late in 3rd could be normal?

Thats bull. Stock 10.5 hotside turbos usually hit peak trq at 3750 rpm on 91 octane (mine included), usually stay almost flat until 5000 rpm then slowly drops.

IMHO, this is yet another dyno chart that shows that these hybrid turbos are hype on 91 pump gas. Sorry if I am ruffling feathers but I think people should know before they plop down all their money.

EFIxMR
05-04-2006, 11:04 PM
well, i didnt say that the 20G will spool the same as the stock turbo, i mean how can it? it runs a bigger compressor wheel with a clipped turbine.

SpeedElement
05-04-2006, 11:14 PM
I think most people already knew these 20gggggg turbos are great for higher octane race fuel and not so good on regular 91oct, including myself. Andy merely just wanted to go against the odds and perhaps try to prove a point that his tuning kung-fu can make it work on 91pump? :lol:

I've been telling him that IX w/ Ti/Al turbine wheel will probably put out better # than the 20g..

earlyapex
05-04-2006, 11:16 PM
well, i didnt say that the 20G will spool the same as the stock turbo, i mean how can it? it runs a bigger compressor wheel with a clipped turbine.

I didn't say you did, although you did say it was because of the cams.

I am just saying, that turbo gives up 1,000 rpm of torque and doesn't gain much or any at the top end. Why would anyone "upgrade" to that turbo?

SpeedElement
05-04-2006, 11:20 PM
cuz Buschur said it worked when he first got it... :lol:

mygsx
05-05-2006, 04:56 AM
well, i didnt say that the 20G will spool the same as the stock turbo, i mean how can it? it runs a bigger compressor wheel with a clipped turbine.
Hey Andy, so TC.ccom sells these with the option to get them clipped 5-whatever degrees?

EFIxMR
05-05-2006, 03:12 PM
They all come with a clipped turbine. the clipping on them is actually pretty extreme

EFIxMR
05-06-2006, 01:02 AM
To beat a dead horse...

1st.

I don't consider this a fully optimized setup. There are a number of issues that should be investigated before saying this is the 20G EVO8's full potential on pump gas. If this was my own car these things would be taken care of right away and we'd go back on the dyno and show everyone the results regardless if they made a difference or not. However, this isn't my car. The owner accompanied me to our dyno session and specifically told me to stop at 300 whp.

2nd.

In terms of the dyno setup sampling range Paul setup the dyno for me 7100 was were it was set to. It hadn't dawned on me to rev the engine out farther to 7500+, as my main concern was getting the car to run correctly. Also I typically shift a stock turbo or stock like turbo at 7000. Not trying to be deceptive here.

3rd.

In terms of the 280 cams I believe it is a big contributing factor to why the tq is later than stock. Naturally, due to the clipped turbine and bigger compressor wheel, it will spool slower than stock regardless, its just the 280 cams make the later spool even more salient. I have numerous friends who've gone back and forth between 264 272 and such to 280s and they all report slower response. I've tried it on my own car too and noticed the same thing. Ask anyone who talks to me about what works and what doesn't, I am extremely honest and upfront and will not twist words to make a sale.

I am here to share with the community, and that's why I posted the results. Like everyone else here, I am just looking for new ways to make more power and make owning our cars more enjoyable. I believe in showing results regardless if they are spectacular or not, record breaking or just plain jane, because I believe an informed customer is the best customer.

Also, I don't mind answering the questions that you pose Brian because they are valid. However, I hope you can understand that this isn't a laboratory setting where I can control every factor and make the test 100% sound. There are tons of things going on and somethings in terms of the write up are inevitably missed.

earlyapex
05-06-2006, 01:09 PM
I am here to share with the community, and that's why I posted the results. Like everyone else here, I am just looking for new ways to make more power and make owning our cars more enjoyable. I believe in showing results regardless if they are spectacular or not, record breaking or just plain jane, because I believe an informed customer is the best customer.

Also, I don't mind answering the questions that you pose Brian because they are valid. However, I hope you can understand that this isn't a laboratory setting where I can control every factor and make the test 100% sound. There are tons of things going on and somethings in terms of the write up are inevitably missed.


Andy,

I want you to know I am not attacking your tuning or knowledge. I am greatful that you always post these results so people can see more data about different mods. It's great.

I agree with you in that the 20G, the tube headers and the 280's are just weird for a car running on pump gas most of the time. They are overkill, as we can see in the results here.

Sometimes overbuilding can be bad. Now, on 116 or something along those lines with more boost, I bet this car would shine.

EFIxMR
05-07-2006, 06:14 PM
kool :D