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ek9_evo9
05-31-2006, 01:14 PM
more of a general question so mods if i posted in wrong section please move.

i have been contemplating about learning heel toeing. I probably might not even take my evo to the track.

question is, should i even bother to learn this technique to use on a daily basis? I know a buddy who tracks his datsun all the time and said he uses it on the street on a daily basis, is it even worth it to learn?

MarkSAE
05-31-2006, 01:20 PM
Heel/toe downshifting is a very useful driving technique on the track and on the street. I'd learn it.

ek9_evo9
05-31-2006, 01:24 PM
is it specifically used to rev match the engine during downshifting to avoid damaging the tranny?

hi_nrg_fizzix
05-31-2006, 01:25 PM
I use it everyday. *Once you learn it, it is second nature. *Just like driving a manual transmission.

MarkSAE
05-31-2006, 01:30 PM
is it specifically used to rev match the engine during downshifting to avoid damaging the tranny?


Yeah.* When you match the engine speed w/ the tranny input shaft speed, your synchros do less work when the shifter goes into gear. This should help your synchros last longer.

vtluu
05-31-2006, 01:40 PM
At the track (or on your favourite on/off-ramp ;)) it's used to ensure that when you come out of a turn you're in a lower gear to help you accelerate out--which requires downshifting while braking for the turn. You heel-toe to avoid "jerking" the car while downshifting, braking and possibly turning at the same time. Generally while I don't drive that close to the limit on the street, sometimes conditions such as rain will make skills like heel-toe useful for keeping the car pointed straight while out on the road.

On a track, at any given you're either accelerating, braking, or turning, or some combination of those. At no point should you be coasting and shifting. If for no other reason, learn to heel-toe on the street because if you ever go to the track, that's not the time to learn to heel-toe--you'll be far too busy concentrating on other things. I wouldn't advise learning to threshold-brake, follow a racing line, or hit your apexes on the street, so use your daily driving to learn what you can before you show up at the track.

ek9_evo9
05-31-2006, 01:46 PM
is it specifically used to rev match the engine during downshifting to avoid damaging the tranny?


Yeah.* When you match the engine speed w/ the tranny input shaft speed, your synchros do less work when the shifter goes into gear. This should help your synchros last longer.


then wouldnt a quick blip of the throttle before shifting without having to break be the same thing?* from what i remember someone telling me, you blip the throttle while braking which i find pretty difficult to do while braking..



At no point should you be coasting and shifting.

does this go for street as well? because i coast a blip quickly before i downshift.

MarkSAE
05-31-2006, 01:56 PM
then wouldnt a quick blip of the throttle before shifting without having to break be the same thing? from what i remember someone telling me, you blip the throttle while braking which i find pretty difficult to do while braking..


Yes, that effectively does the same thing. But there are some situations where you'll need to brake while downshifting and that's when heel/toe becomes useful. Like if some guy cuts you off on the freeway and you have to slam on the brakes. If you don't downshift while braking, you'll have to wait til you finish braking to downshift.

vtluu
05-31-2006, 02:01 PM
then wouldnt a quick blip of the throttle before shifting without having to break be the same thing? from what i remember someone telling me, you blip the throttle while braking which i find pretty difficult to do while braking..

The point of heel-toeing is to brake and downshift at the same time.





At no point should you be coasting and shifting.

does this go for street as well? because i coast a blip quickly before i downshift.

Well you can do what you want on the street... If I'm coasting slowly towards, say, slow-moving traffic ahead and I don't need to brake, I'll blip the throttle as I downshift through the gears so that I'll already be in the right gear when traffic speed picks up again. If I'm in a hurry to get through a yellow left-turn signal, I'll go full-speed into the intersection, brake hard, heel-toe as I downshift, make the turn and accelerate back to the speed limit.

ek9_evo9
05-31-2006, 02:36 PM
then wouldnt a quick blip of the throttle before shifting without having to break be the same thing? from what i remember someone telling me, you blip the throttle while braking which i find pretty difficult to do while braking..

The point of heel-toeing is to brake and downshift at the same time.





At no point should you be coasting and shifting.

does this go for street as well? because i coast a blip quickly before i downshift.

Well you can do what you want on the street... If I'm coasting slowly towards, say, slow-moving traffic ahead and I don't need to brake, I'll blip the throttle as I downshift through the gears so that I'll already be in the right gear when traffic speed picks up again. If I'm in a hurry to get through a yellow left-turn signal, I'll go full-speed into the intersection, brake hard, heel-toe as I downshift, make the turn and accelerate back to the speed limit.


thanks for the clarifications guys. i guess its time to learn, i just find it hard because of the technique, i guess my feet just arent used to going sideways to blip the throttle while braking.

vtluu
05-31-2006, 03:40 PM
Here are a couple useful guides on learning how to do it:

http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/howto/articles/45792/article.html
http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving/driving_heeltoe.shtml

earlyapex
05-31-2006, 03:48 PM
thanks for the clarifications guys.* i guess its time to learn, i just find it hard because of the technique, i guess my feet just arent used to going sideways to blip the throttle while braking.


Its not so much your feet going sideways but your lower leg. Its tough at first but once you get it, it's second nature. I do it without even thinking about it on the street now, it just happens.

If are you are having a hard time visualizing it.. it's really not using your toes, its more the ball of your foot on the gas then the heel of your foot blipping the throttle.

That url that Tam posted above has a good article with illustrations: http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving/driving_heeltoe.shtml

evo_dadi
05-31-2006, 09:19 PM
lol i use the left side of my right foot to brake then blip the gas with the right side of my foot.i cant even imagine doing it the usual way :)

smack
05-31-2006, 09:26 PM
i still say the best way to learn how to heel-toe is to buy a crappy old vw bug.
make sure it won't idle(this is important). once you finally get tired if it stalling at every light you'll
start to learn how to brake and keep the motor reved at the same time :)

haha, i learned how to heel-toe before i even knew what it was.

evo_dadi
05-31-2006, 09:31 PM
hahah oh no!! vw=death ;)

wrx2evo8
05-31-2006, 09:33 PM
lol i use the left side of my right foot to brake then blip the gas with the right side of my foot.i cant even imagine doing it the usual way :)


+1 *This is how i do it too. *

vtluu
06-01-2006, 02:10 AM
lol i use the left side of my right foot to brake then blip the gas with the right side of my foot.i cant even imagine doing it the usual way :)

I used to do that until I started wearing racing shoes. That doesn't work so well with those. Also, on other cars the pedals are spaced further apart and you have to heel-toe the proper way.

evo_dadi
06-01-2006, 05:48 AM
lol dunno tam,my foot is 12w so it gets pretty tricky for me :lol:

EVO GRIM
06-01-2006, 07:00 AM
Funny I do heal/toe in my 1 ton truck now.

dohcvtec
06-01-2006, 10:15 AM
lol i use the left side of my right foot to brake then blip the gas with the right side of my foot.i cant even imagine doing it the usual way :)

Same here.

vtluu
06-01-2006, 12:00 PM
Funny I do heal/toe in my 1 ton truck now.

I don't heel-toe in my truck, 'cuz it's an automatic... But I do left-foot-brake. :lol:

redvolution
06-05-2006, 12:47 PM
lol i use the left side of my right foot to brake then blip the gas with the right side of my foot.i cant even imagine doing it the usual way :)


That's the method I learned from the Skip Barber book "Going Faster."

heeltoer
06-05-2006, 04:05 PM
here you go
http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=176763&page=4&pp=15
scroll down to #54(fixed) for my complete how to.

If you don't care about braking, just stop at step 1.

rev matching is a very good idea.

wilson1
06-05-2006, 06:55 PM
It's post #54 :D


HOW TO practice heel toe.

WARNING, always use caution when using these techinques, practice without other cars around and always drive within your limits.

1. learn to rev match
This if the first step to learning heeltoeing. The idea is that you want to be able to downshift without causing the car to jerk. Its easiest to practice this at less than highway speeds, move to highway speeds when you are comfortable, preferably with no or light traffic. Say you are comfortably crusing in 4th gear, downshift to 3rd!
clutch-in, apply dab of gas, shift, clutch-out
Don't bother with the brake at this point just concentrate on clutch and rev matching using the gas. You will know u got it right when u are you are able to make the downshift one smooth and quick proceedure. shoot for less than 1 sec from clutch in to clutch out, road racers will be able to do this in about .5 to .7 sec (depending on car) everytime all day long.
Debugging:
If after you let out the clutch your car
***seems to leap forward***
you are applying too much gas, less gas next time and/or let out the clutch later, and try shifting slower
***slows down ***
will feel like u applied the brake
you are applying too little gas, more gas and/or let out the clutch earlier, and try shifting quicker

2. learn to brake with only part of your foot on brake pedal
This is an intermediate step but still important. Practice putting part of your foot on the brake pedal and press down the brake, try this without the car running at first. Don't press the gas. learn where the gas pedal is in relation to your brake pedal, be able to feel the brake gas pedal when applying constant pressure to brakes. This is the best time to learn what part of the foot you can use to blip. Be it the side of your foot or your heel. I have found using the left side of your foot for the brake and the right side for the gas is the best and what most people use. The heel part of heeltoeing was because cars back in the day (and some now) have their gas spaced too far apart. Your evo and any proper sports car should have this right.

3. Putting it Together
Ok you know the basics, you can find the proper foot position from earlier in the thread now time to put it together. Its always a good idea to make a few dry runs before trying it with your clutch and transmission involved. Look straight ahead and aim to do this without loosing concentration on whatever is out the windshield.
REMEMBER: while applying constant brake, clutch-in, shift + blip, clutch out, smoothly off brake.
The above debugging rules about your car lerching forward or braking still apply. Remember to put constant pressure on the brake pedal throughout the braking, see step#2.

I instruct for NASA and I encourage folks to practice this before their first event. That said, always find a safe place to do this, you should be able to see where the off ramp leads to. highway off ramps are the best, preferably with no traffic. No need to drive at the limit to practice this. Cruising towards the offramp at highway speeds still demands heeltoeing to get into the right gear. The folks that claim this only applies to at the limit driving have not developed the fine modulation required for their brakes and rev matching. If you can do this consistently and comfortably at the offramp at non death defying speeds you are much better prepared for the track and street. The difference at the track is harder and longer braking.

Also remember that this kinda thing can take time, in fact I learn something new everytime I heel toe, on or off the track. Being able to do this confidantly and consistently is something that will take practice, don't let a mis shift discourage you.

heeltoer
06-05-2006, 07:04 PM
ok so im dyslexic when it comes to quoting my own writing, sigh, please give my advice a chance though :)



here you go
http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=176763&page=4&pp=15
scroll down to #45 for my complete how to.

If you don't care about braking, just stop at step 1.

rev matching is a very good idea.

wilson1
06-05-2006, 07:44 PM
:lol:

Thanks for the awesome writeup! :D

vtluu
06-05-2006, 08:05 PM
I learned by practicing when pulling up to stops/red lights. It's actually harder to rev-match at lower RPMs, so when it came time to doing it at the track, I found it a bit easier.

MarkSAE
06-05-2006, 08:15 PM
I can't even heel/toe very good on my evo on the street w/ my current front pads (RRE PF 95.7s) cuz they have too much initial bite. At the track, I can do it all day long smoothly. I prefer pads w/ progressive pedal feel cuz it makes it easier to do heel/toe downshifts.

Matz
06-05-2006, 09:07 PM
I didn't heel toe on the street until just recently, just to get some practice. But I can't really heel-toe -- I have to cheat and use the side of my foot. That's what the guys at Russell Racing had recommended for me since I can't swing my heel out very easily. (I'm a stiff old man)

heeltoer
06-05-2006, 09:14 PM
Using the side of your foot is actually not "cheating." In fact for most modern cars (and those formula cars at russell) thats the perferred method of blipping the throttle. Read my origional post for some history regarding the name.

It might look cool in Initial D but the heel part only applies to older cars that didn't have the pedal spacing right.




I didn't heel toe on the street until just recently, just to get some practice. But I can't really heel-toe -- I have to cheat and use the side of my foot. That's what the guys at Russell Racing had recommended for me since I can't swing my heel out very easily. (I'm a stiff old man)

evo_dadi
06-05-2006, 09:32 PM
Using the side of your foot is actually not "cheating." In fact for most modern cars (and those formula cars at russell) thats the perferred method of blipping the throttle. Read my origional post for some history regarding the name.

It might look cool in Initial D but the heel part only applies to older cars that didn't have the pedal spacing right.




I didn't heel toe on the street until just recently, just to get some practice. But I can't really heel-toe -- I have to cheat and use the side of my foot. That's what the guys at Russell Racing had recommended for me since I can't swing my heel out very easily. (I'm a stiff old fart)



+1 werd :)

vtluu
06-05-2006, 09:59 PM
Dunno, I find I can blip the throttle more precisely by jabbing my heel than by rolling my foot. Also, I've found some cars definitely require it--so I might as well use the technique that works in all cars.

Whatever works I guess.

03ephatch
09-18-2006, 08:21 PM
is it specifically used to rev match the engine during downshifting to avoid damaging the tranny?


it's also beneficial to your brakes.

there's a good write-up from modified mag months ago by their race writer and instructor, completely forgot his name. i gotta dig thru the past issues. good luck. check out the dpgcc videosite. i think i saw one there. sorry if i'm not much of a help.

-clyde

heeltoer
09-18-2006, 09:18 PM
it's also beneficial to your brakes.


I would be very wary of using rev matching and /or heeltoe downshifting as a method to slow your car. Your brakes are for slowing your car, your transmission is for changing gears the two do not mix well. If you use downshifting to slow your car, it will reduce the life of your clutch/flywheel/synchros/gears.
See origional post about heeltoe downshifting, specifically the debugging section. If you feel like your car is lurching back or forward, then the technique is most likely incorrect.

EvoRicer
01-02-2007, 08:26 PM
Thread from the Dead but i'm curious...So to someone that doesn't know what heel to toe is, it would just sound like a miss shift right?

mtsevovii
01-02-2007, 08:28 PM
yeah you can say that

evo_dadi
01-02-2007, 11:12 PM
that or they would think youre revving at them ;)

RgistRdShowoffIX
01-02-2007, 11:23 PM
sounds like a rev up before a turn. ;) If you keep up you'll also hear it go vroooooooooommm PSH! GONE!

awdaddict
01-02-2007, 11:25 PM
Heel toe thru 2 gears does sound like you are revving at some body.

EvoRicer
01-02-2007, 11:31 PM
Nm...

awdaddict
01-02-2007, 11:33 PM
You could, but I guess if you are not braking hard, then you will end up w/ pretty high rpm when you get into 2nd. I just don't think high rev on the street is neccesary.

evo_dadi
01-03-2007, 12:06 AM
sounds like a rev up before a turn. ;) If you keep up you'll also hear it go vroooooooooommm PSH! GONE!


i never hear that happen on mine ;)

Matz
01-03-2007, 06:30 AM
sounds like a rev up before a turn. ;) If you keep up you'll also hear it go vroooooooooommm PSH! GONE!


i never hear that happen on mine ;)


The "rev up" part or the "PSH"? :) If you don't hear the first part, then I am curious about your heel toe technique (I'm still learning, but getting better). If you don't hear the latter, then I guess you don't have a big bag of rice in your trunk. :lol:

evo_dadi
01-03-2007, 08:44 PM
lol i hear the revving fine but its the pssshh part that i dont hear.i do have a bag of rice in my trunk but thats after coming from costco :P :lol:

earlyapex1
01-03-2007, 08:57 PM
Thread from the Dead but i'm curious...So to someone that doesn't know what heel to toe is, it would just sound like a miss shift right?


You can hear my heel-toe downshifts in this video:

http://tinyurl.com/ylobbg

EvoRicer
01-03-2007, 09:10 PM
Thread from the Dead but i'm curious...So to someone that doesn't know what heel to toe is, it would just sound like a miss shift right?


You can hear my heel-toe downshifts in this video:

http://tinyurl.com/ylobbg


Thanks Bryan. Hey are you blipping the throttle twice? Or downshifting Twice?

earlyapex1
01-03-2007, 09:17 PM
Thread from the Dead but i'm curious...So to someone that doesn't know what heel to toe is, it would just sound like a miss shift right?


You can hear my heel-toe downshifts in this video:

http://tinyurl.com/ylobbg


Thanks Bryan. Hey are you blipping the throttle twice? Or downshifting Twice?


Probably downshifting twice, depending on the corner. If you look hard you can see how my RPM and boost gauge reacts to the heel-toes.

EvoRicer
01-03-2007, 09:22 PM
Probably downshifting twice, depending on the corner. If you look hard you can see how my RPM and boost gauge reacts to the heel-toes.


Why downshift and heel/toe twice instead of just going down 2 gears and heel/toe once?Â* Is it just a driving style your use to or is it faster, easier?Â* Sorry for the n00b questions...

Matz
01-03-2007, 09:28 PM
Probably downshifting twice, depending on the corner. If you look hard you can see how my RPM and boost gauge reacts to the heel-toes.


Why downshift and heel/toe twice instead of just going down 2 gears and heel/toe once? Is it just a driving style your use to or is it faster, easier? Sorry for the n00b questions...


High revs + 2 shifts in one = no more engine. Remember that when you downshift, your revs will go up each time. So typically, I think people shift once, let the revs drop just a little, then shift again. Certainly in some cases you can shift two gears at once. I've done it before, but only when I'm going pretty slow (i.e. 3rd -> 1st).

earlyapex1
01-03-2007, 09:30 PM
For me, I found it easier to control the car if I downshift twice, that way I am always in the right powerband incase something happens. If I did one big throttle blip to downshift 2 gears at the time I was downshifting I would be really high in the RPM.

Some corners however I do blip the throttle high enough to drop 2 gears in one rev match. Just depends on how I am driving, etc.

AreSTG
01-07-2007, 05:15 AM
hey brayn,

how come in all your videos, the cars in front of you put their arms out the window, but i never see you do it?


;)

hagakure
01-07-2007, 09:34 AM
Because no one is passing him:).
The other people are "pointing Bryan by", ie, letting him know that they know he is closing fast behind them and needs to pass. It's a safety/curtosy procedure in HPDE.

mtsevovii
01-07-2007, 10:25 AM
i think AreSTG knows... hes pointing out the obvious. note the : :wink:

earlyapex1
01-07-2007, 11:42 AM
hey brayn,

how come in all your videos, the cars in front of you put their arms out the window, but i never see you do it?


;)


haha, trust me I do it as well. I just don't let anyone see it on video. :P

06IXMR
01-17-2007, 10:00 PM
Damn I want to go on a ride along lol..

EvoRocky
02-09-2007, 11:16 AM
Back to heel/toe then...

Do you guys actually use your heel? I roll my foot to the right... but my pedals aren't quite in the right place to make this feel comfortable...

vtluu
02-09-2007, 11:23 AM
I use my heel. I found that rolling my foot only works if the brake and throttle are fairly close together (not true in many cars) and if the sole of my shoe is wide (most racing shoes aren't). Also, trying to cover both pedals in that way doesn't leave me with a firm footing on the brake pedal. I find it's easier to brake firmly with the ball of my foot and then pivot my foot and give the throttle a precise jab with my heel.

earlyapex aka jack ass
02-09-2007, 12:05 PM
Back to heel/toe then...

Do you guys actually use your heel? I roll my foot to the right... but my pedals aren't quite in the right place to make this feel comfortable...


You can do whatever works for you, here are 3 examples, I do the first illustration:

http://www.red4est.com/pdapi/jpegs/heeltoe.jpg

Here is some good reading:

http://www.red4est.com/pdapi/body.html

MarkSAE
02-09-2007, 12:11 PM
Dang, I can't imagine doing it backwards like the 2nd illustration. Does anyone do it that way? It seems really unnatural.

I do the first one. I can do the 3rd one on my civic because the pedals are closer together compared to the evo.

mtsevovii
02-09-2007, 12:39 PM
i use fig. 1 and 3 depending on the footware. i cant imagine it on fig 2 either... one slip and its over.. haha.

vtluu
02-09-2007, 01:08 PM
Nothing wrong with #2 if you've got the hang of it and the pedals are situated appropriately (I've never seen any that are, but some race cars have pedals customized to the driver). I'd argue that it's too easy to slip off the brake pedal with #3--which is partly why I stopped doing it.

mtsevovii
02-09-2007, 01:16 PM
yeah i could see someone using fig. 2 on a BMW.

awdaddict
02-09-2007, 02:14 PM
I think figure 2 is for some ppl who said they cant roll the foot and they have big feet themselves too.

wzcx
02-09-2007, 02:38 PM
I have big feet, and I usually am somewhere inbetween 1 and 3. I use most of my heel, and part of the side of my foot. I have slipped off the brake (on the street), and so I've backed off on heel-toeing on the track. I have a lot of other things to perfect first.

earlyapex aka jack ass
02-09-2007, 02:45 PM
If I remember and there is enough light, I can try and set up my in-car vid cam to record my feet. I've actually been meaning to do that anyway. I could do film it on the street or on the track.

I never come close to slipping off the brake pedal, it's actually pretty damn solid on there.

Disclaimer: I'm no Gilles Panizzi ;)

awdaddict
02-09-2007, 02:46 PM
If I remember and there is enough light, I can try and set up my in-car vid cam to record my feet. I've actually been meaning to do that anyway. I could do film it on the street or on the track.

I never come close to slipping off the brake pedal, it's actually pretty damn solid on there.

Disclaimer: I'm no Gilles Panizzi ;)

So it's going to be like those JDM videos huh. One on your roll bar, the other one (Picture in Picture mode) that record your feet? :)

vtluu
02-09-2007, 02:48 PM
Heel-toeing on the street is more tricky than on the track, IMO, because you do it at much lower revs while braking more gently, so you need a lot more finesse on the brake pedal and when blipping the throttle. When coming to a stop I'll usually downshift through the gears, well these days I usually skip 3rd gear because the synchros are busted, and go to neutral after 2nd gear.

earlyapex aka jack ass
02-09-2007, 02:51 PM
So it's going to be like those JDM videos huh. One on your roll bar, the other one (Picture in Picture mode) that record your feet? :)


No it would just be my feet to give everyone a clearer picture. Unless it comes out bad and makes it look like I suck or something. ;)

earlyapex aka jack ass
02-09-2007, 02:52 PM
Heel-toeing on the street is more tricky than on the track, IMO, because you do it at much lower revs while braking more gently, so you need a lot more finesse on the brake pedal and when blipping the throttle. When coming to a stop I'll usually downshift through the gears, well these days I usually skip 3rd gear because the synchros are busted, and go to neutral after 2nd gear.


Yea which makes it a perfect place to learn. That's how I learned, doing it on the street all the time. Now I do it without thinking, I even do it when I drive the Neon. My girlfriend thinks I am insane.

vtluu
02-09-2007, 02:53 PM
Yeah I know what you mean, people think I'm revving on them (in my Miata) when I pull up to a light.

MarkSAE
02-09-2007, 03:00 PM
Going through the motions by practicing on the street first is good because it helps you become more comfortable w/ it before trying it on track. Â*Everything happens much faster on track.

From my own experience, when I first started, I found heel/toeing on the track easier than on the street because it didn't require as much finesse.

awdaddict
02-09-2007, 03:09 PM
I started in the street, so I don't really have the exp to rev match at a higher RPM.
Got more experience rev matching at medium RPM, 4-5k when I go mountain run.

AreSTG
02-09-2007, 05:16 PM
Yea which makes it a perfect place to learn. That's how I learned, doing it on the street all the time. Now I do it without thinking, I even do it when I drive the Neon. My girlfriend thinks I am insane.


so thats how it got curbed, concentrating on your feet.. :)

EvoRicer
02-09-2007, 07:02 PM
I gotta go on a ride along with someone while they do Heel/Toe so I know how it works/feels. I sometimes apply too much brake or I don't blip high enough. Damnit!