Problems with Xflash ECU tune

[nebolic]

I am writing this post so that I may inform other potentional users of the problems I am experiencing with Vishnu's Xflash.

As many of you know, I have a Vishnu Stage 0 Xflash in my car, the only other mods I have is a 3 inch catback and GFB BOV.

Recently, I heard my car knocking (you'll know what it sounds like when you hear it, basically it sounds like pebbles in your car) and also my car was pinging (makes a tick, tick noise).

Therefore, I took my car back to Vishnu this past friday to have it adjusted. Shiv confirmed that my car was pinging, on the test drive the sound was audible @6500rpm (tick). Thus he attempted to "fix" my problem. He put a couple of different flashes in my car and also this is a big also, they changed the way they install the boost hoses (which I was never notified). On the last attempt of flash, I did not go on a test drive with Shiv because I was talking with someone else at the shop. Shiv came back and said my car is fixed.

My thoughts, okie cool, over and done with. I headed back to Sacramento, however I hit traffic all the way back so I couldn't open up the Evo and test the new tune.

Now several things here that has changed since my original flash which makes me wonder what the heck is going on.

1. Is that many of you know that Xflash is geared towards spike in boost and then slowly tapering down. Thats what the Xflash does.
a. However after this new "flash" my boost did not spike to the usual mark (25psi) instead it hit 21psi then it holds 19psi all the way through the powerband. To me that is a significant change, again I was not notified.

2. Apparently the boost solenoid is disconnected from my ECU and there is no way the ECU is controlling the boost right now, so I do not understand what kind of tune I'm running, it sort of looks like a boost controller (which incidently I do not own one).

Now several things in contention here is that as stated above, those are quite big changes, and as a customer I was never notified of these changes.

Next, I purchased an ECU reflash for several reasons, but the biggest reason was that I wanted Stealth and undetectability by the Dealership so I can keep my Warranty. However if you look at my boost solenoid, any mechanic at the dealership would know that my car's been messed around with and will VOID my warranty.

So, the next day, I took my EVO to a friend to have him look at it, we tested it and we both agree that it feels eerily similar to an ahem "another tune" Anyhow, later on that evening when I was driving home, I finally opened up the car and boom @6500rpm tick tick, the car is pinging again. Not only that BUT the boost in my car changed again. Remember that after the new "flash" the boost was holding constant 19spi. Well now it reverted back to the old way of spiking at 25psi and tapering down. And yes I'm very confused and frustrated as to why my Evo is doing this.

Fast forward to yesterday (Monday), I called up Shivs place to inquire about what I just wrote about. (I sent both Shiv and his staff an email in regards to this on Saturday night, still no reply) First person I talked to was Brett, I inquired as to why the boost solenoid is not connected and if thats the case how does the ECU control boost. His response was that the solenoid should be connected and the ECU IS controlling the boost. And that the Xflash should be holding 19psi of boost all the way.
So I sent him pics of the solenoid (btw I can post those pics on here too) and waited for a call back. 1 hour went by I didn't hear a thing, so I called Vishnu's and then I talked to Ken. Ken said thats the way it should be, and that the boost solenoid should not be connected. So then my question is how is the boost being controlled? It seems like there is no control of the boost whatsoever. He couldn't answer my questions and the best he can do is call Shiv.

Today, they still haven't been able to contact Shiv. I requested a refund back because I have already taken time off work to get it fixed and it is still not fixed and I do not feel like driving down there anymore. However, no one at Vishnu can make the call of getting me a refund and they have to contact Shiv. So I"m still waiting.

Just to recap my points.

1. My Evo is still knocking/pinging.
2. My boost changed from holding 19psi from 1 day to (originally before I got the new flash) of spiking at 25psi then tapering down.
3. My boost solenoid is disconnected and this is not stealth, my warranty will be voided.
4. I haven't heard back from anyone at Shiv, I have to keep calling.
5. I have yet to receive a refund.

The above stated are all FACTS. Nothing is made up, and is for informational purposes only. I hope that someone at Vishnu reads this post and respond promptly. I am not bashing any vendors, but it seems like I have a problem and I'm being abandoned. Had I known all of this beforehand I would've given more thought about diving in. You guys can respond but please keep it polite. And most of all, I wish to hear Shiv respond as I am very disappointed with Company Vishnu.

Regards,
Nebo

Pics of the boost hose

http://www.norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/album28/boosthose_xflash.sized.jpg

http://www.norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/album28/boosthose_xflash2.sized.jpg

[chris]

dang that hella sucks. isn't this suppose to be in tech or something?

[nebolic]

dang that hella sucks. isn't this suppose to be in tech or something?

kind of in both, but I was leaning more towards buyers corner because this is somewhat of a review of the product. I'm going to be impartial to this post as I started it and I will not moderate/censor anything, so if the other mods feel like taking control of this post, please feel free to do so. That way, the info will not be skewered (by me).

Thanks,
Nebo

[EvolvedDSM]

I would love to see some pics of the vacuum lines going to the wastegate actuator.

[EvolvedDSM]

What a teaser shot...

I can only assume that one side of that fitting goes to the intake pipe and the other goes to the T that branches to the turbo outlet nipple and the wastegate actuator.

If that's the case, there's no ECU involvement in the boost control. With the levels you're seeing I can only speculate that the fitting is somehow acting as an MBC (meaning it has a small hole in it bleeding off some pressure).

...but I've been wrong before ;)

[nebolic]

EvolvedDSM, I think you're heading into the right direction because thats what several people have told me too once they looked at the hoses (that its acting like a MBC). Actually these people that looked at my Evo are very competent and capable so I do take note of what they are saying.

[odyss3y]

<sarcasm> Vishnu ... bad customer service/communication? Are you kidding? </sarcasm>

Hell, when I had money to give them they still wouldnt answer my questions about their products/services.

Check this out:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=446443&highlight=vishnu+bash

http://www.teamnabr.com/pubforums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000097;p=#00000 0

http://www.teamnabr.com/ubbpub/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000101#000000

[odyss3y]

And the infamous:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=321676&highlight=1wrx2nv

Took me awhile to find this. It is a long read but has some decent info in it.

[ez76]

nebolic,

For what it's worth, I can tell you that yours isn't the only car on which Vishnu has re-routed those lines through a bleeder, but obviously that doesn't help explain the pinging.

What gauges besides boost are you running if any?

Is it at all possible you're running a bum tank of gas?

[nebolic]

nebolic,

For what it's worth, I can tell you that yours isn't the only car on which Vishnu has re-routed those lines through a bleeder, but obviously that doesn't help explain the pinging.

What gauges besides boost are you running if any?

Is it at all possible you're running a bum tank of gas?

I understand that now, however, I was always under the impression that the ECU was controlling the boost. And also, I wanted stealth something not noticeable, and those hose lines are very obvious to the trained eye.

I'm running an Autometer boost gauge.

Not bum gas of tank, I'm using the gas Shiv recommended 76 Unocal. (Pricey stuff) so I dont think its the gas either.

Nebo

[odyss3y]

Okay, overview:

Basically, someone on this forum is having trouble (tuning results and customer service) with Vishnu. I posted my links to establish that this is not an isolated occurence for Vishnu. Countless people have posted about the business ethics of Vishnu Tuning. In posting the links above, I wish to demonstrate this, and inform the general public as far as what customer support they can expect. This can do two things:

1. Vishnu can shape up and keep customers/make more customers by showing a responsible response.
2. People can be saved time and money by knowing what to expect, and thus reconsider the real worth of a Vishnu product or service.

Now preferably I think we'd call agree the first option is best. Vishnu typically does a good job of tuning (ie his customers are happy), although its the customer service nuances that really keep me from giving him any money. When it comes to $2000 in mods, a well informed customer is the best customer. My posts are to inform his potential customers as well as his current customers as to what they may be up against should the shit hit the fan.

To show the opposite, when I had problems with a product and service, another vendor (BOZZ) redid the install to my satisfaction and is also why I will continue to get service at BOZZ should I need to go there (my vendor of choice is MPJ Performance).

[SouthernCrane]

Sorry to hear that the problem hasn't been fixed Nebo. I wonder why they didn't just decrease the boost settings within the ECU......keep us updated.

[JanSolo]

Sorry to hear that the problem hasn't been fixed Nebo. I wonder why they didn't just decrease the boost settings within the ECU......keep us updated.

Can he? I was under the impression that the Xflash does not control boost, just delays the boost taper.

The reason I say this is that once Nebolic went from the stock BOV to a GFB, his boost went from 23psi to 25psi. The GFB essentially holds boost better - which is a good thing.

[EvoVIII]

so is the GFB causing the problem?

[JanSolo]

so is the GFB causing the problem?

I dunno.. is holding boost better a problem? The stock blow off valve is known to be "leaky".

[DB8GSR]

Nebo.... sorry to hear this. Just for comparison on the x-flash, at wot from 3k rpm, I'm getting 22psi and then immediately tapers down to 19psi all thru redline. Haven't heard a single ping on my car yet *knock on wood* but I'll be watching that very closely.

On the other hand, all my hoses are still connected to the solenoid. One of the hoses are connected to the intake and the other is T into the actuator. I don't understand how's yours was bypassed but probably not related to the ping. Shiv may have custom tuned your Evo because of the new blow off. Are you getting more power now though?

Where's shiv when you need 'em!! :roll:

[EvoVIII]

man, does anybody have steps I can follow for me to take off my airbox? I want to check mine out now... :roll:

[JanSolo]

Nebolic has a baseline Xflash. No custom tuning at all.

[EvoVIII]

hey so... do u guys all think that is safe for the Evo's to run an xede and xedeflash on their car? and by the way, I got alot of tick tick sound on my xede when I step on the gas hard, is that normal?

[warpspeed]

Damn eddy sorry you haven't gotten your problem fixed. I know you told me you were already have problems with the pinging/knocking during the drive to the Works meet. From the picture...the way he has it, it is like a MBC setup. Hate to say it, but refund wise I don't think so. He might come up with an excuse saying that because you added "this", you voided the set-up. Good luck.

[nebolic]

okie heres how you can tell if you have ping... first you have to roll up your windows and turn off your radio, its very hard to distinguish and hear if you never heard it before. And if you guys ever step on your car and feel like the power is not smooth, chances are, somethings happening. Right before you feel the unsmoothness you should hear a tick. As for my boost, i dont know whats going on with it, its spiked before and it slowly tapers.

First time i got xflash, shiv said look your boost is gonna spike at 23psi and then taper. sure enough thats what it did, spike at 23psi and a very apparent tapering down to around 17-18 psi. Now i guess the new flash they have you're suppose to hold boost all the way at 19psi, anyhow thats what Brett told me at Vishnus. So if they can log on and clarify things that would be great. BTW i just did a couple more test runs on WOT and i'm actually hearing pinging sometimes between 5500rpm and 6500 rpm, not on every try but around 60% i'm hearing it, so basically i can't WOT on my Evo right now.

My daily driver.....

Nebo

[JanSolo]

hey so... do u guys all think that is safe for the Evo's to run an xede and xedeflash on their car? and by the way, I got alot of tick tick sound on my xede when I step on the gas hard, is that normal?

Depends on where your Xede is. The Xede has a relay clicking it makes when you hit boost. Someone like Shiv and/or EZ76 could probably clear this up better than I can. But I believe this sound is normal.

[DB8GSR]

Nebolic has a baseline Xflash. No custom tuning at all.

If Shiv altered the code on nebo's "base x-flash" i.e. boost, timing.... etc.., does that considered custom? I consider a base x-flash if shiv uploaded a base map onto the ecu. Someone correct me!!

[nebolic]

okie also, the GFB unit is not the problem for sure. Why? Because I changed the stocker valve back in there and its the same thing, tick tick tick. So I can assure you guys the valve is not the problem, if anything the valve is helping it. Another thing you guys might be thrown off, yes my boost is spiking at 25psi, but thats 3500rpm however my pinging is occuring after 5500rpm which means if the xflash is working correctly i should be around 18psi or a little less, so overboosting is not the problem. I just wanted to clarify that because some of you reading this might think that the problem is because my boost is spiking at 25psi. Anyhow, at this point, I'm kind of scared of whats the long term repurcussions to my Evo since hearing audible knock is pretty severe.

Hope that clarifies some issues.

Nebo

[ez76]

The XEDE relay ticking is completely normal when you are on boost and for a few seconds after you are off-boost.

What you're hearing is the sound of the XEDE simulating the load of the wastegate solenoid (for the benefit of the ECU, which is no longer controlling it).

Without this relay, the ECU turns on a Service Engine Soon light because it thinks the wastegate solenoid is malfunctioning.

[EvolvedDSM]

man, does anybody have steps I can follow for me to take off my airbox? I want to check mine out now... :roll:

http://www.norcalevo.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=777

It sounds as if that black connector may house some sort of ball and spring (aka homemade boost controller). Otherwise, I don't see why that piece is even in the loop. It also sounds like this band-aid is not doing its job. It may have briefly, but it's almost as if you're running unregulated boost.

My suggestion: run a line from the turbo outlet nipple straight to the wastegate acuator until you can get in to see Shiv. This will limit your boost to ~10PSI, but I'd rather be safe than sorry at this point. This will also rule out the possibility that you have a faulty actuator ;)

[coolguy949]

If you're looking for a stealth flash, WORKS P2 is an awesome flash since their boost tube looks IDENTICAL to the stock one but has a different "pill" inside. I really love how WORKS thinks ahead before they release their products. Their products are very dealer friendly and stealthy. Plus, you cant complain about a 3 year warranty!

[Shiv@Vishnu]

nebolic,
I'm sorry I have not been able to contact you. I've been out racing this entire week at Open Track Challenge. Just got back from thunderhill today and this is the first time I've been able to log on since Sunday.

The fitting in your boost control set up is a solenoid simulator. It maintains boost by regulating a controlled bleed just as a wastegate control solenoid does. But it does with better control and less oscillation. Boost should peak at around 21psi and slowly taper down to 16-17psi by redline. This will vary depending on exhaust upgrades, BOV settings, etc,. But not by that much.

BTW, this was the boost fitting updated I mentioned when you came over to our shop last week. Reflashed ECUs simply cannot control boost as well as an XEDE, stand-alone or even an MBC. Between altitude, temp and gear compensations, boost pressures can vary depending on conditions by as much as 2psi. This is why we have switched over to this new form of boost control and it has worked perfectly on every car.. so far. If your'e car is behaving differently, I'd like to find out why. You are already running 2-3 degrees less timing than everyone else above 5500rpm. If you don't want anything to do with it, I'd be happy to revert you back to stock and refund you as well. But I'd encourage to you find out why your car is behaving so differently than everyone elses first. I don't believe it to be the fault of the relash or boost control fitting.

I'll be in the office tommorrow afternoon and for the rest of the week. I've already replied to the email you sent me. I'd appreciate it if these matters can be taken off-line until the problem is identified or resolved.

Also, when you put your stock BOV back in, make sure that it went in the right way. If it goes in backwards, it can cause a boost spike as well as awfull compressor surge. Same goes for an aftermarket BOV that is set too tight.

Best Regards,
shiv

[RonV]

Shiv,
The set up on Ed's car looks different than mine? Am I wrong?

Thanks,
Ron

[odyss3y]

...

If your'e car is behaving differently, I'd like to find out why. You are already running 2-3 degrees less timing than everyone else above 5500rpm. If you don't want anything to do with it, I'd be happy to revert you back to stock and refund you as well. But I'd encourage to you find out why your car is behaving so differently than everyone elses first. I don't believe it to be the fault of the relash or boost control fitting.

I'll be in the office tommorrow afternoon and for the rest of the week. I've already replied to the email you sent me. I'd appreciate it if these matters can be taken off-line until the problem is identified or resolved.

...

Best Regards,
shivPerfect... Shiv, I'm happy to see this kind of response from you. Keep up the good work.

[nebolic]

Shiv,

Thanks for the response, I'm gonna bring the car in ASAP on Friday, also its dependent if I can get a day off work (which I'm not too sure of at this moment). But most likely I'll be able to get a day off. So hopefully I'll see you bright and early on Friday.

Thanks,
Eddy

[JanSolo]

The fitting in your boost control set up is a solenoid simulator. It maintains boost by regulating a controlled bleed just as a wastegate control solenoid does. But it does with better control and less oscillation.

This is why we have switched over to this new form of boost control and it has worked perfectly on every car.. so far.


Reading this makes me wonder..

What I get out of this.

1. I see something akin to an mbc. Not an elegant, stealthy or warranty friendly setup.
2. This seems to make it sound you cannot control boost from the ECU - which is perfectly fine (and admitting it is okay too since people often times care about the end result, not the path taken). The only other *ahem* tuner to recommend an mbc to control boost is Dynoflash/Al. You don't blatantly state this, but you do basically have one installed although this one does not look like it really can control as well as a true MBC. (Control is such a funny thing to quantify - Al sends a 10 minute boost delay taper - is that control? You could beat him marketing wise if you put in an 11 minute boost delay taper with a tagline of "Ours goes to 11!". Others can make boost do what they want from the ECU - I would quantify that as control moreso, but your opinion may differ.)
3. When you say better control, do you mean because it does not have the ability to actually change boost levels because it is a wide open tube with no way to attenuate?
4. Do you think the boost hoses should have been zip tied on to the "solenoid simulator"? And do you think that putting some caps on the boost solenoid that is now unused would have been a good idea?

By the way, I seriously would love to help you figure out which code in the ECU controls boost and I would be willing to help out for say 200$ an hour (same price you charge for hourly tuning) to figure out which specific values need to be changed in order to control boost. I've got over 10 years in the computer industry, so I think I am worth it.

As it stands, you have essentially created a cheap mbc like device to *try* to control boost . Previously, you had stated that another flash that holds boost via the factory ECU is basically in danger of knocking, but from what we can tell, it is the Xflash that the one that has detonation problems.

Just my two centavos!