View Full Version : Engine Grenading 101
I obviously don't have any idea WTF I'm doing with the ECU+, because I just did a couple of runs and the dyno chart is AFU.
I've attached 3 files -- one is for cruising in 5th at 3000 RPM, because my knock voltage was around 0.7V, and I thought that was high compared to some other numbers that I *recall* reading.
The other two log files are for 3rd gear pulls. I started at 2500RPM (which is probably not right, according to the ECU+ docs). I was hoping that some of the ECU+ guys here could take a look at the logs and let me know if anything is scary (namely, the knock voltage readings). The dyno charting is way off, because I know my Evo doesn't make as much as the AMS Evo. :lol: It's got to be because I didn't do the run properly.
I'll post more stuff like this for the noobs as I learn more about the tuning process. Pretty fun so far!
(PM me for logs)
ek9_evo9
07-06-2006, 03:09 PM
post screen shots for those of us who dont have ecu plus :wink:
post screen shots for those of us who dont have ecu plus :wink:
you can download the s/w at www.ecuplus.com... honestly, screenshots don't do it justice. With the s/w, you can roll over the plots and get exact data points!
But just out of curiosity, do you know how to use the attach feature to get the images to appear inline with the message body? When I tried before, it was just an attachment, and no image appeared.
Absinthe
07-06-2006, 04:49 PM
ask the Karebear guy for help
ask the Karebear guy for help
Yeah, I hope Bryan will eventually post a "WTF are you doing?" reply. :lol: :lol:
KareBearPowa
07-06-2006, 08:51 PM
Too lean down low, way way way way way too rich 5200rpm on. You max out your wideband full rich 6,000 rpm on. ;)
Too much timing all over.
I'll post more after my "I blowed up my tranny" drinking fest.
Too lean down low, way way way way way too rich 5200rpm on. You max out your wideband full rich 6,000 rpm on. ;)
Too much timing all over.
I'll post more after my "I blowed up my tranny" drinking fest.
WTF? You killed your tranny???
Thanks for the comments. For some reason, I didn't come to the same conclusion as you. I saw 10.0 AFR all the way to 7000RPM. ???
EDIT -- Ok, maybe 10.0 is considered rich. I think I'm supposed to target 11.0ish, right?
As a first step, would you recommend that I richen up down low and lean out up top with ECUflash and run again? Would it be logical to do this now and then try again later once I install the 720s? Also, I have the MBC set to 1.0 bar max, so I'm not exactly tuning with the ideal setup. However, I wanted to do this to be safe first, fix it to work at the current boost level, then raise boost and try again... then repeat this over and over again.
Anyone have comments about the tuning strategy? I'm going to do some 2nd, and maybe 3rd gear pulls next week.
I see Bryan's point about being too lean early, and too rich later, so I can tweak fuel maps to get the right AFRs... however, I'm not sure what to do with the injector timing. I guess I'll study his ECU+ logs online and compare to the ECUflash maps.
KevOVIII
07-08-2006, 01:44 AM
5th gear looks normal. :)
Street pull #1: lean out the top end to be between 10.9-11.1 for now. Also, as Bryan said, your timing is CRAZY on pump gas. You'd want to go 19-ish up top... 25 is too much.
Street pull #2: see above.
It looks like you're not close to maxing out your stock(?) injectors yet. You'll definitely have to retune after you swap in the 720s. What WB are you using again? Your AFR early on looks nice until about 5700, but I might be using a different WB setting than you are.
3rd gear is the best and easiest gear for us to tune on the street.
Thanks for the tips, Kevin! I'll try some of that on Monday. As far as the timing goes, I don't understand why the timing is crazy... is it a general rule that you should never go above 19 ever, or is it load dependent? I'm running a completely stock map, so I'm surprised that it's doing this... I'll have a look at ECUflash.
I'm not even close to maxing out my stock injectors in the logs, probably for 2 reasons: 1) I apparently wussed out and didn't really floor it -- my TPS reading never hit 5V, and 2) I am limiting boost to 14psi for now. My reason for #2 is that I want to learn to tune with the least amount of boost so I have more of a margin for error. Once I get 14psi dialed, I'll crank up the boost little by little until I get to 19-21psi. Once I am comfortable, I will install the 720s, change the injector scaling, and then start over again. This part gets tricky because I'll also have to figure out the right injector battery compensation values.
KareBearPowa
07-08-2006, 10:00 AM
Thanks for the tips, Kevin! I'll try some of that on Monday after I do a better run on the 101. As far as the timing goes, I don't understand why the timing is crazy... is it a general rule that you should never go above 19 ever, or is it load dependent? I'm running a completely stock map, so I'm surprised that it's doing this... I'll have a look at ECUflash.
I'm not even close to maxing out my stock injectors in the logs, probably for 2 reasons: 1) I apparently wussed out and didn't really floor it -- my TPS reading never hit 5V, and 2) I am limiting boost to 14psi for now. My reason for #2 is that I want to learn to tune with the least amount of boost so I have more of a margin for error. Once I get 14psi dialed, I'll crank up the boost little by little until I get to 19-21psi. Once I am comfortable, I will install the 720s, change the injector scaling, and then start over again. This part gets tricky because I'll also have to figure out the right injector battery compensation values.
Your timing is crazy high because your only running 14psi and running so rich up top. 25 degress is actually ok for that low of boost. I would lean out the areas you need to and keep an eye on the timing. The problem with only runnin 14psi and tuning it, is that A. It's lower then stock boost so its running in a load column that wasn't tuned for WOT. B. If you tune for 14psi and raise the boost to 19psi or so, you risk leaning out. I would crank you boost up to at least stock boost and tune from there, you are running really rich, just lean it out slowly and you should be fine.
Awesome info, thank you! So I should crank up to 19psi, then? I think that's where the stock ECU tapers to.
Maybe I should also install my GM MAP tomorrow so I can log boost as well. Anyone know where to get good wire that can withstand engine bay temps?
KevOVIII
07-09-2006, 01:04 AM
Awesome info, thank you! So I should crank up to 19psi, then? I think that's where the stock ECU tapers to.
Maybe I should also install my GM MAP tomorrow so I can log boost as well. Anyone know where to get good wire that can withstand engine bay temps?
Yup, just crank up the boost to 19 psi and start tuning. Mitsu's timing and AFR values are on the safe side so no need to worry. You can probably have it spike to 20.5 psi and let it drop to whatever it goes to.
I used wire bought from Home Depot. Been using that stuff since 2000 for underhood wiring... no issues. :)
Awesome info, thank you! So I should crank up to 19psi, then? I think that's where the stock ECU tapers to.
Maybe I should also install my GM MAP tomorrow so I can log boost as well. Anyone know where to get good wire that can withstand engine bay temps?
Yup, just crank up the boost to 19 psi and start tuning. Mitsu's timing and AFR values are on the safe side so no need to worry. You can probably have it spike to 20.5 psi and let it drop to whatever it goes to.
I used wire bought from Home Depot. Been using that stuff since 2000 for underhood wiring... no issues. :)
Perfect! I'll see what wire they have... any particular kind that you use? I figure anything stranded core, 20-22AWG should be good, and get whatever has the highest temp rating. Hopefully, I'll get it in tomorrow.
I think my Forge MBC has a resolution of ~0.05 bar per full turn, so I'll have to do a bit of cranking on it tomorrow. :)
KevOVIII
07-09-2006, 01:20 AM
Perfect! I'll see what wire they have... any particular kind that you use? I figure anything stranded core, 20-22AWG should be good, and get whatever has the highest temp rating. Hopefully, I'll get it in tomorrow.
I think my Forge MBC has a resolution of ~0.05 bar per full turn, so I'll have to do a bit of cranking on it tomorrow. :)
Nothing in particular... anything that has insulated copper wire will work. You have many color choices like black, red, blue, green, yellow, white, etc. I used 14 gauge, which is a little thick but no issues.
Test, crank, test, crank, etc. :) Have fun!
okie dokie! Thanks again.
AreSTG
07-09-2006, 08:46 AM
matz,
keep this thead updated as much as possible please. I want to learn everything i can about tuning with ecu+, and i think we are in just about the same boat w/ it comes to knowledge about tuning. GREAT info so far
Ok, no problem. I plan to post all of my ECU+ logs, along with screenshots with the match maps from ECUflash. I'm going to head out to Home Depot soon to pick up wire so I can hook up the GM MAP today.
AreSTG
07-09-2006, 11:31 AM
Ok, no problem. I plan to post all of my ECU+ logs, along with screenshots with the match maps from ECUflash. I'm going to head out to Home Depot soon to pick up wire so I can hook up the GM MAP today.
think you can post a how-to on that thing after you do it, or point me to a how-to install that worked for youj?
Ok, no problem. I plan to post all of my ECU+ logs, along with screenshots with the match maps from ECUflash. I'm going to head out to Home Depot soon to pick up wire so I can hook up the GM MAP today.
think you can post a how-to on that thing after you do it, or point me to a how-to install that worked for youj?
Yep, was planning on doing a how-to. I'm going to start working on the installation soon.
EDIT -- CRAP. The biggest problem with not doing installations when originally intended is that you might lose track of the parts you need. I have the MAP sensor, but I lost the damn connector! So it looks like this project is on hold until I can find the connector, or order a new one. :(
AreSTG
07-11-2006, 08:27 AM
your luck has to turn around at some point!
Just did a couple of quick pulls. I have only increased boost from 1.0 to 1.3 bar. I was in 3rd gear, and apparently am still too scared to push down on the accelerator all the way, even though I sure felt like I had it floored.
SJCoruja
07-11-2006, 02:10 PM
First - damn you for making me get all in to it and want ECU+ even more. Going to have to make this my Bday present to myself. :D
As for the pulls today, am I reading/understanding this correctly that a) you are running really rich still after around 5k rpms, b) running a bit lean around 3500 still, and c) lifting early (6500 rpms)?
peter
07-11-2006, 02:13 PM
i have no knowledge of the ecu at all, where is the best place to get it tuned?
First - damn you for making me get all in to it and want ECU+ even more. Going to have to make this my Bday present to myself. :D
As for the pulls today, am I reading/understanding this correctly that a) you are running really rich still after around 5k rpms, b) running a bit lean around 3500 still, and c) lifting early (6500 rpms)?
heheh :)
Absolutely correct, still running lean, then rich after 5k. I had to lift early because I came up on that car really fast. :shock:
So now I just need to learn how to change the stock ECU map (via ECUflash) to get those values down. Can any ECUflash masters here help me out?
SJCoruja
07-11-2006, 02:50 PM
...can't you just make the adjustments with the ECU+ to add/subtract a bit of fuel?
KareBearPowa
07-11-2006, 02:56 PM
Remember you must set your version of the ECU+ software to whatever wideband the person whos log you are reading used.
...can't you just make the adjustments with the ECU+ to add/subtract a bit of fuel?
Yes, but I really want to do all tuning in the ECU ROM, not with the piggyback.
FYI everyone, you can pull my stock ECU map from my sig. I'm going to make some changes to it tonight and post the comparison for review before I reflash my ECU... then I'll post up another ECU+ log so you can see what sort of difference it made.
Ok, for those of you that don't necessarily want to install ECUFlash, here's what my stock fuel and timing maps look like:
Stock fuel map:
http://evo8.initialdproject.com/ECUFlash/matz_stock_fuel.bmp
Stock timing map:
http://evo8.initialdproject.com/ECUFlash/matz_stock_timing.bmp
I will edit these maps to address the richness down low in one area only, and with a little smoothing. We'll see if the experts here can lend me some feedback! :thumbsup:
UPDATE: Bryan informed me in a later post that I had posted the wrong maps -- I guess I am supposed to be looking at the "high octane" maps. So here they are!
Stock high octane fuel map:
http://evo8.initialdproject.com/ECUFlash/matz_stock_fuel_highoctane.bmp
Stock high octanetiming map:
http://evo8.initialdproject.com/ECUFlash/matz_stock_timing_highoctane.bmp
KareBearPowa
07-11-2006, 10:22 PM
Those are the low octane maps. ;)
KareBearPowa
07-11-2006, 10:28 PM
Can you list all your mods out again?
Also, you need to do a 100% WOT pull. If you want to be extra safe, just do some 100% pulls from 3,000 to 6,000 rpm and we can go from there.
Those are the low octane maps. ;)
Wait a sec... isn't 91 considered low octane? If not, then what is? I'm confused. Is this the map that ends up getting switched to under high knock conditions?
UPDATE: I updated my previous post and added the high octane maps.
Can you list all your mods out again?
Also, you need to do a 100% WOT pull. If you want to be extra safe, just do some 100% pulls from 3,000 to 6,000 rpm and we can go from there.
My mods:
K&N drop in filter
WORKS DP, IP, ABM, 269 cams
MBC set at 1.25 bar-ish
Flux capacitor
I probably wasted my time just now trying to correlate the ECU+ data with the low octane maps: e.g.:
http://evo8.initialdproject.com/ECUFlash/matz_stock_fuel_overlay.bmp
http://evo8.initialdproject.com/ECUFlash/matz_stock_timing_overlay.bmp
:(
UPDATE: for the noobs here, I think one big clue that I was in the wrong map is the load values... according to Andy's post (http://www.norcalevo.net/forum/index.php/topic,10209.0.html), the load axis is in kpa... 100 => 0psi, 200 => 1 bar => 14.7 psi. So clearly, I should have had all of the little white dots around 200!
KareBearPowa
07-11-2006, 11:03 PM
Wait a sec... isn't 91 considered low octane? If not, then what is? I'm confused. Is this the map that ends up getting switched to under high knock conditions?
Hi-Octane maps is what you should always try to be in. The lo-octane maps is what the ECU switches to under heavy knock.
Wait a sec... isn't 91 considered low octane? If not, then what is? I'm confused. Is this the map that ends up getting switched to under high knock conditions?
Hi-Octane maps is what you should always try to be in. The lo-octane maps is what the ECU switches to under heavy knock.
Got it! Ok, so I'll post up new logs tomorrow if I don't F up with my laptop.
Also, if I want to try that snazzy street dyno feature, what's the correct way to do it? Whenever I try to use it, I specify the time period during WOT, and I end up with a 1000HP Evo. :lol:
KareBearPowa
07-11-2006, 11:26 PM
Also, if I want to try that snazzy street dyno feature, what's the correct way to do it? Whenever I try to use it, I specify the time period during WOT, and I end up with a 1000HP Evo. :lol:
easiest way I have found is to zoom in the RPM window (F8) so that the begin and the end of the pull is just within in the window and then right click and analyze as dyno.
Also, if I want to try that snazzy street dyno feature, what's the correct way to do it? Whenever I try to use it, I specify the time period during WOT, and I end up with a 1000HP Evo. :lol:
easiest way I have found is to zoom in the RPM window (F8) so that the begin and the end of the pull is just within in the window and then right click and analyze as dyno.
Awesome tip, thanks!
KareBearPowa
07-11-2006, 11:41 PM
forgot to add that way you don't have to input begin and end time, its automagically filled in! Just hit analyize
(post deleted because it was a duplicate)
forgot to add that way you don't have to input begin and end time, its automagically filled in! Just hit analyize
Yep, that's totally beautiful, and when I used it to do the dyno analysis, it was a more reasonable number (and nicer curve) -- around 250HP.
I've attached the ZIP to this post. You'll most likely be interested in pull #3because I hit 5V on TPS. The first couple of runs I didn't hit 5V because I was too busy looking at my EGT gauge.... temps looked good, so I went for it on run #3.
Here's a screenshot for those that don't have ECU+ installed (but you should install if it you're interested in learning!):
http://evo8.initialdproject.com/ECU+/071206.PNG
My car is running so rich between 6100RPM and 7500RPM that it's out of the range of my wideband. :shock:
Dyno plot
http://evo8.initialdproject.com/ECU+/dyno 071206.bmp
KevOVIII
07-12-2006, 11:55 AM
Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee... look at that vehicle speed curve. lol Your honor, I submit to the court evidence #1 showing the defendant going over and way BEYOND the speed limit on a public highway. :D
Change your AFR to 10.0-20.0 (vs 5.00-25.00). Timing can be 0-30 since you'll rarely see it in the negatives or above 30 when WOT.
KareBearPowa
07-12-2006, 12:46 PM
Nice 99% duty cycle. ;)
I layout my ECU+ with 4 windows spanning horizontal to make curves and the data easier to read faster. I use RPM / AFR / TIMING / KNOCK
Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee... look at that vehicle speed curve. lol Your honor, I submit to the court evidence #1 showing the defendant going over and way BEYOND the speed limit on a public highway. :D
Change your AFR to 10.0-20.0 (vs 5.00-25.00). Timing can be 0-30 since you'll rarely see it in the negatives or above 30 when WOT.
Hmm... did I say 85? I meant the dyno. :) Maybe I shouldn't post my logs. :shock: NCE members can PM me for them from now on... (well, I'll just send them to you and Bryan in PMs)
What do you mean by changing AFR to 10-20, etc? Are you just referring the the visible range on the graphs?
KareBearPowa
07-12-2006, 01:45 PM
What do you mean by changing AFR to 10-20, etc?* Are you just referring the the visible range on the graphs?
Yup.
Ok, here's what I think my ECU is doing:
Timing overlay:
http://evo8.initialdproject.com/ECUFlash/matz_stock_fuel_highoctane_overlay.bmp
Fuel overlay:
http://evo8.initialdproject.com/ECUFlash/matz_stock_timing_highoctane_overlay.bmp
Which area should I target first? Richen the lean parts down low, or lean out the rich parts up top?
Here's another idea... tell me what you guys think about this as a way of sharing / editing maps!
View Matz's Stock 03 Evo VIII fuel and timing maps! (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=o04366450980410234067.3869066053746829728)
I basically wanted a way to make it easy to share maps, and have it in an environment where we can write our own smoothing filters for data points. Maybe this will work, and maybe it won't. But it would be cool to try it out and see what everyone thinks.
:google:
dohcvtec
07-12-2006, 05:39 PM
I don't have access to it. seems like a cool idea.
I don't have access to it. seems like a cool idea.
Oh yeah, if you want to access it, please PM me your google account so I can invite you.
KareBearPowa
07-12-2006, 06:00 PM
I can't see shit
http://www.travelpod.com/users/chris-marianne/bigchina.1093096320.wuxi_skyline.jpg
I can't see shit
You mean you can't see the spreadsheet? I think I have to invite you or something... do you have a gmail account?
KareBearPowa
07-12-2006, 10:44 PM
Ok, took a look at your logs...
Richen 3,000rpm to 4,500rpm a bit, more at 3k then tapering off less to 4,500rpm.
5,000 to 6,000rpm I would lean out, progressively more as it approaches 6,000 rpm
6,000 rpm to 7500rpm lean out alot. Of course take some baby steps there but you can be a little aggressive there. I would do about .2 or .3 changes and log, then change, then log again.
Do some logs.
Ok, so I've decided that I'll try to richen up down low, first. Looking at the ECU+ log, I'm around 14-15 AFR at 2000RPM, whereas others are around 12. I figure that I can reduce the value in the fuel map by 20%, and then smooth out the neighboring cells. However, when you smooth, do you smooth and try to preserve the "look" of the existing map? Or do you smooth along the curve that I overlaid on the map in my previous post?
I was going to put in 13.5, like this:
http://evo8.initialdproject.com/ECUFlash/mod 1, no smoothing.png
If I smooth only along the curve, then it might look like this:
http://evo8.initialdproject.com/ECUFlash/mod 1, smoothing along curve.png
whoops, I posted at about the same time and didn't read your post. Let me try again in the RPM range that you had suggested, and I'll post up what I've come up with. Thanks!!!
KareBearPowa
07-12-2006, 10:57 PM
Ok, so I've decided that I'll try to richen up down low, first. Looking at the ECU+ log, I'm around 14-15 AFR at 2000RPM, whereas others are around 12.
your 14-15 when you aren't WOT. which is what you should be. You go into 13 and lower once you go WOT. You're fine down there.
12.5 to 12 is fine before you fully spool.
Personally I wouldn't touch anything below the 140 load column right now.
I figure that I can reduce the value in the fuel map by 20%, and then smooth out the neighboring cells. However, when you smooth, do you smooth and try to preserve the "look" of the existing map? Or do you smooth along the curve that I overlaid on the map in my previous post?
Try to keep a smooth transition to every cell.
Super helpful advice, Bryan, thanks! I'll make some changes tomorrow and post up my new map before I flash the ECU. :thumbsup:
drunk monkey
07-12-2006, 11:15 PM
hey bryan willing to look at my 3rd gear evoscan log and see what you can do for a mild tune for a helix catback and a hks intake and the rest stock?
Carlo
KareBearPowa
07-12-2006, 11:17 PM
hey bryan willing to look at my 3rd gear evoscan log and see what you can do for a mild tune for a helix catback and a hks intake and the rest stock?
Carlo
Sure, I don't have Evoscan yet since I don't have a WinXP laptop yet but I think I can view the log or you can post/send a screenshot.
drunk monkey
07-12-2006, 11:19 PM
sweet. expect a pm from me soon.
Carlo
KareBearPowa
07-12-2006, 11:23 PM
Actually I just bought EvoScan and am now downloading the extra logviewer as well.
EvoScan sure looks like a viable option for those that don't want to spend $$$ on the ECU+. Even though a 50% speed increase isn't much, it's still an improvement over the ISO9141 standard.
FYI for everyone: http://www.limitless.co.nz/EvoScan/
So what do you all think about this as a potential change? I haven't tried smoothing it out yet, since I'm not sure if I'm being too aggressive, or not aggressive enough on the changes.
Proposed changes: (changes are indicated by white on blue cells)
http://evo8.initialdproject.com/ECUFlash/possible cell changes, no smoothing 071306.png
And just for ease of comparison, the original:
http://evo8.initialdproject.com/ECUFlash/original map for comparison 071306.png
KevOVIII
07-13-2006, 09:15 PM
Don't know until you run and log. :)
Don't know until you run and log. :)
True, but since I've never done this before, I just want to make sure I'm not putting in totally absurd numbers. :) I'll go ahead and start smoothing, and hopefully this weekend I can get on the dyno or something.
KareBearPowa
07-13-2006, 10:00 PM
Looks fine to me.
Looks fine to me.
Okie dokie guys, here's the first reflash that I'll try... hopefully I can get a few pulls in at EIP this weekend. I'll have to call Paul to see if he takes drop-ins.
Original map:
http://evo8.initialdproject.com/ECUFlash/matz_stock_fuel_highoctane.png
New map:
http://evo8.initialdproject.com/ECUFlash/possible cell changes, smoothed 071306.png
ek9_evo9
07-14-2006, 08:37 AM
how hard is it to learn how to tune your own car?
Im seriously considering it because per Matz they recently released the IX software. As a newb, would it be advisable for me to try to learn this stuff?
how hard is it to learn how to tune your own car?
Im seriously considering it because per Matz they recently released the IX software. As a newb, would it be advisable for me to try to learn this stuff?
I am a total noob to tuning, and my goal behind this entire thread is to see whether or not a noob (with tons of help from the NCE experts) can do it without grenading the engine. I think this will be a big help to the community.
*However*, I personally would be a little more cautious with the IX, because I believe it has more stuff to worry about, like all of the additional maps, and I don't understand how mivec works.
KevOVIII
07-14-2006, 11:00 AM
As long as you make changes in small increments, the car won't blow up. You can change table's AFR by 0.1-0.3 without getting into trouble (that's unless you're already running lean, which you aren't).
ek9_evo9
07-14-2006, 11:03 AM
As long as you make changes in small increments, the car won't blow up. You can change table's AFR by 0.1-0.3 without getting into trouble (that's unless you're already running lean, which you aren't).
thank you for that statement.
would it be in my best interest to tune on stock with a drop in?
i remember reading before that the evos came pig rich from the factory....is this just as a safety precaution o ris it in my best interest to fix that.
As long as you make changes in small increments, the car won't blow up. You can change table's AFR by 0.1-0.3 without getting into trouble (that's unless you're already running lean, which you aren't).
thank you for that statement.
would it be in my best interest to tune on stock with a drop in?
i remember reading before that the evos came pig rich from the factory....is this just as a safety precaution o ris it in my best interest to fix that.
I believe you want to fix the rich condition. If you look at my plots, it's running so rich that it doesn't even register on the wideband any more...
So this whole thing about tuning by looking at AFR makes sense, but can someone comment on timing? At what point do I play with those maps?
KareBearPowa
07-14-2006, 11:46 PM
So this whole thing about tuning by looking at AFR makes sense, but can someone comment on timing? At what point do I play with those maps?
Fuel first, timing second. Although you can fix the stock timing dip at 5500 if you want. I believe it's there because the 4G63 can be sensitive to knock around there but if you tune it right you can smooth the timing out in that area.
KareBearPowa
07-14-2006, 11:48 PM
would it be in my best interest to tune on stock with a drop in?
i remember reading before that the evos came pig rich from the factory....is this just as a safety precaution o ris it in my best interest to fix that.
Evos do like to run fat but there are considerable gains to be found tuning a stock evo, especially after 5,000rpm
So this whole thing about tuning by looking at AFR makes sense, but can someone comment on timing? At what point do I play with those maps?
Fuel first, timing second. Although you can fix the stock timing dip at 5500 if you want. I believe it's there because the 4G63 can be sensitive to knock around there but if you tune it right you can smooth the timing out in that area.
Awesome, thanks for the info, Bryan. I loaded the new map tonight, and we'll see on Sunday morning (or maybe tomorrow if I can wake up) how well it works out.
I looked like an ass on openecu.org because I posted "uh gee, I used to be able to load ROMs, and now I can't", and I forgot that I had my ECU+ switched to OBD override mode. :oops: Anyhow, it did write the updated map really fast... pretty slick software.
I had an idea this morning and posted it up on the ECU+ forums (http://www.ecuplus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=355&start=0). We'll see what Tom thinks about it.
Hmm... I may be in a bit of trouble. After reflashing my high octane fuel map last night, my car starts and then dies almost immediately. Check out this video (http://evo8.initialdproject.com/ECUFlash/EvoDiesAfterECUFlashing.wmv).
I'm going to flash it back to the stock map and we'll see what happens. <crossing fingers>
UPDATE -- I guess we can assume my first attempt at tuning was a bit of a failure. Flashing back to stock worked fine, so apparently I need to take even smaller baby steps when modifying the maps. This is gonna take a while. :) I'm going to try to finish up the MAP installation instead.
KareBearPowa
07-15-2006, 04:51 PM
Did you put your immobilizer code back into your map?
Did you put your immobilizer code back into your map?
hehe, no. but I thought it only flashed the map that I had checked. oops! So you think that's it, then? I guess what ECUFlash does is do a diff. operation between the existing map and the one you're flashing? That would make sense, I guess. :oops:
Off topic, but you know how we were talking about dreading the wiring for the GM MAP? Yeah... I'm almost done, but doing the soldering into the S-AFC harness I have is taking me longer than everything else! Installation and routing the wires through the firewall was cake. Those that are doing ECU+ installations should definitely prewire the +5V and sensor ground (pins 81 and 92, respectively) regardless of whether or not they're going to add auxiliary sensors. Pulling the harness out and then having to do all of the soldering under the glove box is a bitch.
UPDATE -- yep, that was it. :oops: It's silly that I didn't even try that, especially when I labeled my ROM "DO NOT FLASH, NO IMMOBILIZER"!!!
KareBearPowa
07-15-2006, 05:31 PM
UPDATE -- yep, that was it. :oops: It's silly that I didn't even try that, especially when I labeled my ROM "DO NOT FLASH, NO IMMOBILIZER"!!!
lol, good thing you saved your immobilizer code.
Now think if you hadn't!
UPDATE -- yep, that was it. :oops: It's silly that I didn't even try that, especially when I labeled my ROM "DO NOT FLASH, NO IMMOBILIZER"!!!
lol, good thing you saved your immobilizer code.
Now think if you hadn't!
You have it, so I'd IM you! :lol: You had downloaded my ROM before I 0'd out the immobilizer.
KareBearPowa
07-15-2006, 06:01 PM
You have it, so I'd IM you! :lol: You had downloaded my ROM before I 0'd out the immobilizer.
You're right, I do still have it. I just checked. ;)
AreSTG
07-16-2006, 09:40 AM
delete this post
Ok, did two more datalogging sessions today. I've attached the ECU+ logs, but just for your enjoyment, I've posted the overlaid plots.
The green line is the previous map from my logging on 7/12/06.
The red line is the current map logged today, 7/19/06.
http://evo8.initialdproject.com/ECU+/071206 overlaid on 071906.gif
Looks like the low end was richened up as expected, and the top end is still lean, but I don't know by how much since I'm at the lower limit of the PLX's range. I'm going to modify the map again today and lean out the top end (>= 5500RPM) some more.
chrisw
07-19-2006, 07:20 AM
UPDATE -- yep, that was it. :oops: It's silly that I didn't even try that, especially when I labeled my ROM "DO NOT FLASH, NO IMMOBILIZER"!!!
lol, good thing you saved your immobilizer code.
Now think if you hadn't!
You have it, so I'd IM you! :lol: You had downloaded my ROM before I 0'd out the immobilizer.
yep... that imobilizer code can be had for the right bribe... :)
matz,
I noticed that your knock voltage shows a lot of noise in the upper RPM range. What are the knock counts (aquired through evoscan) I have a similar noise pattern in mine, or so it appears.
yep... that imobilizer code can be had for the right bribe... :)
hehehe :)
I noticed that your knock voltage shows a lot of noise in the upper RPM range. What are the knock counts (aquired through evoscan) I have a similar noise pattern in mine, or so it appears.
I don't have evoscan, but since it's pretty cheap, maybe I'll buy a license just to check it out. Wonder if Tom can add knock counts to ECU+... I don't think he currently supports logging OBD data and sensor datalogging simultaneously.
KareBearPowa
07-19-2006, 09:09 AM
I wouldn't use the EVOscan knock as the bible. I have seen cars with 10 counts of knock with no pulled timing. There are other data points the EVOscan doesn't read correctly. It's pre-beta at best in my book.
I bet once you lean out the higher RPM your knock voltage will smooth out. ;)
I wouldn't use the EVOscan knock as the bible. I have seen cars with 10 counts of knock with no pulled timing. There are other data points the EVOscan doesn't read correctly. It's pre-beta at best in my book.
I bet once you lean out the higher RPM your knock voltage will smooth out. ;)
Thank you for saving me $35. Anyhow, I'm going to lean it out above 5500 today, then hopefully Paul can get me on the dyno tomorrow morning and evening so I can make two more iterations before the weekend. I'll probably bump up another 0.3 around the top end.
Ok, here's another map. I'm just going to attack the super rich condition at 5500RPM and up. I also turned up the boost on my MBC from 15.8 to roughly 18psi, so I'll have to watch everything very closely tomorrow morning on the dyno.
New map (iteration #2):
http://evo8.initialdproject.com/ECUFlash/mod 071906 5500RPM up and smoothing.png
Previous map (iteration #1):
http://evo8.initialdproject.com/ECUFlash/possible%20cell%20changes,%20smoothed%20071306.png
Per Bryan's recommendation, I will also be enabling knock correction in the ECU+, just to be safe.
Here's the set of ECU+ logs from my datalogging session this morning.
This time, I took a look at my AFR while I was driving, and it was still pinned on rich. Because I turned up the boost, the ECU is now using a different set of load cells that haven't been richened. For this run, I had only modified my previous set of cells. So I'll go ahead and plot a new line through the table and adjust the necessary values.
EDIT -- looks like I had a nice rich knock event. Thank you earlyapex for telling me about the knock correction yesterday. Looks like it came in handy today. :) Check out this screenshot of the today's two sessions overlaid on one another:
http://evo8.initialdproject.com/ECU+/072006.gif
For whatever reason, this time the forum s/w scaled my GIF again (but hadn't earlier). Please right-click and choose View Image to render it properly.
I also overlaid yesterday's session (green line) on today's session (red line). Since I only modified from 5500RPM and up, I assumed that I should align the two plots so they match from 3000-5500RPM. AFR is all over the place in today's map... once again, most likely because I'm in different load cells (so still running stock map values there).
http://evo8.initialdproject.com/ECU+/071906 overlaid on 072006.gif
EDIT -- Ok, and here's the timing map overlay.
http://evo8.initialdproject.com/ECU+/timing map overlay for 072006 session.png
Can someone explain the load axis units to me? I was under the impression that it's in kpa... but clearly can't be, because there's no way I'm boosting that high. I'm just under 19psi... unless the method of mapping from ECU+ timing logged to the ECU timing map is flawed? Maybe I made a mistake?
I could definitely use a hand with understanding what's going on here. I am not going to dyno my car today.
dohcvtec
07-20-2006, 09:21 AM
dude, what time do you get up in the morning? :shock:
dude, what time do you get up in the morning? :shock:
I get up at 4:30AM, and usually get to work by 5:15. Today I had to take my car in to get painted, but I got up early and did some logging anyway. :)
SJCoruja
07-27-2006, 10:08 AM
Woohoo...I have entered the lair. :D
...and as you can see, entered with a damn fine knock spike around 6200rpms. This was my first and only pull I was able to do this morning before work. I will be doing multiple pulls later this afternoon so will know more later...
http://norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10668/normal_First%20run%20ecu%20shot.jpg
http://norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10668/normal_First%20run%20dyno%20shot.jpg
KareBearPowa
07-27-2006, 10:15 AM
No timing pull though.
SJCoruja
07-27-2006, 11:43 AM
No timing pull though.
Yeah, saw that but am still a bit worried since the HP just falls off from there instead of climbing like normal....something different with the street dyno feature? I know they seem to read low on HP, but didn't seem like it should fall like that. Also, what settings is everyone using (weight, smoothing, tranny loss, etc) to get the numbers close to the actual dyno runs?
KareBearPowa
07-27-2006, 11:50 AM
Yea that does drop off a bit up top. This is with no changes made in ECU+, just your straight EcuTek tune? Do you have a wideband hooked up yet?
Use 0 tranny loss. about 15-20 smoothing and I use about 3500 for weight. HP is usually off by about 10 or so, trq is usually very close.
Glad to see that you're going to start working with the ECU+! Hopefully, I can get in at EIP tomorrow for several dyno pulls. I can't seem to ever get on the freeway without cars in my way. :(
SJCoruja
07-27-2006, 01:40 PM
Updated with the new street dyno settings :( Car has made 300whp - 280/300tq at both Gruppe-S & EIP, but street dyno says 248/267.
I am hopeful though that it may have been a fluke. I will do several pulls tonight to check the consistent results.
http://norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10668/normal_First%20run%20dyno%20shot%20corrected.jpg
dohcvtec
07-27-2006, 01:43 PM
what is happening around 5500 rpm? quite the dip there.
Just out of curiosity, where are you doing your street runs?
KareBearPowa
07-27-2006, 01:48 PM
Don't be too concerned about the actual numbers compared to your real dyno results but more the curves and the increase or decrease of numbers pull to pull.
Something for sure is happening around 5500.
SJCoruja
07-27-2006, 03:03 PM
You guys are right...took a closer look and I can see the timing really hang from 4900 to 5600. Going to do a few runs tonight, then lower the boost a bit to see if that changes the results. Other than that, have to hold off on changes until I get my wideband in.
Also, don't want to hi-jack Dave's thread as I have a feeling I'm going to be doing a ton of trial and error as well, so I will move my progress/results back to my old 333whp thread below. Discussion and pointers are helpful and VERY much appreciated!
http://www.norcalevo.net/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=2&topic=9013.15
Ok, well, this thread is now officially dead. earlyapex tuned my car at Gruppe-S today, and you can do so much, so much faster than with weekly, or even daily street runs. I am now an official Care Bear customer! :thumbsup:
AreSTG
08-26-2007, 08:18 AM
Ok, well, this thread is now officially dead.
back to life, gunna finally try my hand at a bit of tuning, been needing it forever, and i found the motivation today. Time to datalog.
AreSTG
08-26-2007, 10:14 AM
ecu+isn't logging my afr, kinda gay. Knock has stayed below 1.25 and IDC reached 77% at highest on any run. So those two things at least make me happy. Dyno numbers dont make me happy ;)
Tim, where the hell have you been???
What kind of wideband do you have? I can't remember.
SJCoruja
08-27-2007, 10:13 AM
ecu+isn't logging my afr, kinda gay. Knock has stayed below 1.25 and IDC reached 77% at highest on any run. So those two things at least make me happy. Dyno numbers dont make me happy ;)
Make sure you have the wideband type set correctly in the software. Also, what settings are you using on the street dyno? I have found that mine always read quite low, but the power is there on any regular dyno. I use the street for before/after testing.
AreSTG
08-30-2007, 07:00 PM
using the zeitronix. I have the zeitronix display in the center console and noticed that it snot displaying anything, so its more than a setting on teh ECU+. I hope it ends up being osmething simple.
and Hi Dave, i don't come around very much anymore, and post a lot less than i come around
AreSTG
08-30-2007, 07:43 PM
ok, just checked it and all the wires look fine.Â* Only thing i cant remember is where it gets power.Â* Was that up to me where it gets power? if so i need to check that because its acting like it has no power.
So does anyone know how the sensor and display act when the sensor dies?Â* I'm getting nothing on ym display, no powering up, sensor warming up, NOTHING, which makes me hope i disconnected its power source when cramming theECU+ and Zeitronix box under my dash(which finally are hidden form veiw...)
Thanks for any input if anyone has any experience with the zeitronix, even with a dead sensor i'd expect SOMETHING on the display.
EDIT: I think i rememebr wireing it into the ECU+ harness, which would be the same place it gets its power, making it even mroe likely something disconnected when it was crammed under the dash. Now I just need to know how the display acts with a dead sensor, to rule that out :)
AreSTG
09-02-2007, 07:31 AM
yanked it all out, Somehow a 12ish pin connector was pulled out. There's alot of spare wires the ECU+ harness has that go to nothing, and the connecter blended in with them.
FIXED!
ChuckP
09-20-2007, 08:27 PM
AreSTG please keep this thread alive! I want to learn this stuff. Where is a good place to read up on tuning? I find this stuff fascinating.
AreSTG please keep this thread alive! I want to learn this stuff. Where is a good place to read up on tuning? I find this stuff fascinating.
Books I'm trying to read:
Maximum Boost by Corky Bell
How to Tune and Modify Engine Management Systems by Jeff Hartman
Engine Management - Advanced Tuning by Greg Banish
The Care Bear Experience by Bryan Medway
atlvalet
09-21-2007, 08:50 PM
I would love to read The Care Bear Experience if it's not a joke ;)
I would love to read The Care Bear Experience if it's not a joke ;)
Unfortunately, most of the best stuff from that book has already been deleted from NCE. :lol:
ChuckP
09-21-2007, 09:32 PM
Thanks bro.
AreSTG please keep this thread alive! I want to learn this stuff. Where is a good place to read up on tuning? I find this stuff fascinating.
Books I'm trying to read:
Maximum Boost by Corky Bell
How to Tune and Modify Engine Management Systems by Jeff Hartman
Engine Management - Advanced Tuning by Greg Banish
The Care Bear Experience by Bryan Medway
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