Hondas at thunderhill and tracking in general.

[KareBearPowa]

Question for the honda peeps.

What type of lap times are Integras capable of at say, thunderhill? With the stock motor, no swap.

What is the better platform for a track car and why? (civic hatch vs civic coupe vs civic del sol vs acura integra)

Are the wheelbases all pretty much the same?

How much are replacement parts (the more expensive ones like tranny, bottom end)

How do the rotors and hubs and bearings hold up? (how much are good rotors?)

What type of weight are we looking at for a track-prepped honda? (still with bumper beams however)

Tanks in advance.

[EFIxMR]

I think 2:05 isn't an unrealistic number for a good driver and decent car.

I prefer the civic hatch 92-95 due to its light weight. However, they say the feel of an Integra in turns is better since it has more balanced weight distribution. I think in practical terms there is little to no difference. The civic 92-95 coupe has an approximate ~2" inches more in wheel base.

Transmissions range from 500-1400 for a b series tranny. The more expensive ones are the type r which come with LSD and short ratio gears.

An engine type r long block is probably about 2000-2500.

The engine is pretty bullet proof for tracking and so is the tranny when naturally aspirated making under 200 whp.

Common wear and tear items are CV joints, and suspension bushings since some cars are 10+ years old.

There are lots of good deals in the classifieds now that hondas aren't that popular anymore, and that the B series isn't the creme of the crop.

The rotors and bearings hold up great due to light weight.

Track prepped EG with cage is about 2000-2100 lbs.

I think its a great track car. The cheapest one out there to run maintanance wise yet still fast. Replacement parts are dime a dozen. Cheaper wheels, cheaper tires, cheaper brakes.

[EV0LL]

Man one headgasket and one tranny and your already thinking about defecting?!? INFIDEL!!! :P

[KareBearPowa]

Man one headgasket and one tranny and your already thinking about defecting?!? INFIDEL!!! :P


And the thousands of dollars of 100 octane, and the tires, and the 4 sets of rotors/pads I have been through in less then 10 events, and the 2 gallon milk jugs I have full of old motul brake fluid at $14 bux a 1/2L, etc etc.

I'm just getting cold feet and the tranny isn't even out of the car yet. Love the car it just gave me a slap of financial reality this event. I'll keep it for a daily driver but a honda or miata for the track is looking better and better now.

[KareBearPowa]

Andy,

Am I right in thinking an integra is the best bet since I want decent power without having to swap the motor?

Or can I get the same power to weight ratio with a Civic Si Hatch with bolt ons?

[EFIxMR]

Right, go with the integra. The GSR model is probably the one you want and these days they go for pretty cheap. The great part about the GSR is that the engine revs to 8000 freely without worry, and the transmission shifts solid.

The Civic with the single cam I'm not too fond of. Those engines are really hit and miss when it comes to mods, and the transmission shifter feel is horrible. Compared to the EVO the loss in power with the single cam will be unbearable. The engine is rougher all around, and when pushed feels unreliable. It is also extremely hard to find a Civic hatch Si that hasn't been riced out or abused.

I think if it were the choice between the Miata and Honda, at this point it think i'd go for the Miata personally. Just because I haven't owned a RWD car. The Honda will kill the miata in terms of acceleration, and IMHO reliability, but cornering I think the Miata is more fun.

I've driven the Miata at buttonwillow, and it was a lot harder to drive than a Honda. I think they call that thing a momentum car right?

Acceleration is comparable to the single cam Civic, and from what I hear it is hard to make power on those cars with simple upgrades.

Integra GSR if you want a car that is an all around performer, acceleration and handling.

Downside is that insurance on the integra is rediculously expensive for full coverage, it can easily become a money pit, high theft, and that moving on to wheel to wheel racing in HC really wont get you anywhere (probably going to get some sh*t for that statement, but its true in my opinion).

Miata if you want RWD, and the possibly of going wheel to wheel in spec Miata.

[KareBearPowa]

So integra replacement parts are easy to find just like civics?

Mike was telling me the OBD1 integras are a better bet?

I used to really lean towards a miata but man those things would be WAY too much of a jump back from an EVO power wise. I really like them, the chassis is great but getting power out of them is very very hard.

I am also partial to FWD. RWD is great and all but I have always loved underdog FWDs. ;)

Integra insurance is expensive why? Theft rate? Higher theft rate then a civic? HC I don't care about. I don't have any desire to start real racing because It's too expensive.

I just want a track toy I can beat on all day and if I break something it won't break the bank. I also want it to have somewhat decent power to weight ratio and a good chassis. I would buy a TypeR in a heartbeat if it wouldn't get stolen in 4 days. haha.

Using 91 octane all day at the track sounds good too. ;)

[MitsuMan]

yea *then strip it down and seam weld the whole thing. *I think a miata is a mans car. get a convertable seriously if i was to buy a lesser power 2wd car i'd go with a vtec 98-00 civic si that dohc motor is really quiet impressive. then you can put a I heart my Honda sticker on it next to the option2 sticker, crooked of corse

[crctslt]

My buddy Mario has a supercharged Miata. That thing is a blast to drive. Cheap too.

[drunk monkey]

honestly just get an itr. if you plan on tracking it. just keep it garaged. *reguardless of which platform you pick. most parts are interchangable with each other. Reason the obd1 is a better bet its easier to chip and tune instead of the obd2.

Carlo

[KareBearPowa]

honestly just get an itr. if you plan on tracking it. just keep it garaged. reguardless of which platform you pick. most parts are interchangable with each other. Reason the obd1 is a better bet its easier to chip and tune instead of the obd2.

Carlo


Now, other then 5lug, basic interior, LSD and the brakes, whats else is different on the TypeR over the GSR?

[EFIxMR]

Getting an obd2 car isnt a big deal, as you can get a conversion harness (kinda like a afc patch harness) that convert your car to obd1.

The replacement parts on the integra are reasonably priced and available. The civic stuff is dirt cheap. Before I would give away stock engines that people left at my house after I swapped engines for them. Now 1.6 SOHCs fetch about 1500 or less for the complete drivetrain.

I believe the insurance rate on the integra is so expensive because they consistently show up on the insurance companies highest vehicle theft rate every year. I think this is only a problem if you want your car with full coverage (comprehensive & theft). 3 years ago, my friend was telling me he was paying 300+ a month to insure his integra!

Hondas are getting less popular and I think theft isn't as bad as it was 3 years ago. I think for what you are describing, the Integra GSR is the best bet. I would try and find a new model even if it was obd2, as things like the suspension bushings, clutch, ect on the older cars can be suspect.

[EFIxMR]

The type R has a different cylinder head (p/p from the factory), higher lift cams, better intake manifold, higher compression pistons, better rods, better crank.

Transmission is tighter ratio, lighter flywheel, LSD.

Chassis has more reinforment, no sunroof, less sound deadoning.

If you can afford a type R it is an awesome car, and it retains its value pretty good now that its depreciated its initial amount. It be a great car to track as is, where as the integra is going to need some work (Front LSD for you for sure).

[MitsuMan]

if you get a honda you can buy all your parts from Sumit complete with under glow kits and shinny exhaust

[evo_dadi]

if you get a honda you can buy all your parts from Sumit complete with under glow kits and shinny exhaust

have you even read the thread title??there are good info's being posted and youre just cluttering things up.

[lncrevoviii]

An EG, GSR or Type R is what you should be thinking about. Pick Type- R (i believe with Dual Stage V-Tech), if not then the EG and swap heads and cams with Type-R. They are good for track becuase the parts are cheap, they are light, tons of things you can do and the best part very easy to work on.

On the other hand, these are the cars that get jacked, broken into, slung for parts etc etc.

[BaseModelEvo]

On the other hand, these are the cars that get jacked, broken into, slung for parts etc etc.



It's basically a trend with those. Good reason for a nice garage.

[EV0LL]

Man one headgasket and one tranny and your already thinking about defecting?!? INFIDEL!!! :P


And the thousands of dollars of 100 octane, and the tires, and the 4 sets of rotors/pads I have been through in less then 10 events, and the 2 gallon milk jugs I have full of old motul brake fluid at $14 bux a 1/2L, etc etc.

I'm just getting cold feet and the tranny isn't even out of the car yet. Love the car it just gave me a slap of financial reality this event. I'll keep it for a daily driver but a honda or miata for the track is looking better and better now.


Uhhh I was kidding d00d. Can't blame ya for looking at other options... Was a valid question when I was deciding on wether to buy an EVO or keep the Talon as a track car and just get a nice daily D.

[drunk monkey]

there isnt dual stage vtec. Type r is basically a integra rs that the body has been reworked to be more stiff. suspension is pretty good out of the box. you got five lug. motor basically the head is different than the gsr. itr is a b16 head that has been worked with a minor port and polish. and has short runners to the head. the gsr has longer runners with dual buttery flys for more low end to mid range hp.

I dont know why ppl always have to bash hondas. yea there are bad apples among the bunch. but honeslty they are a very good platform to start with and if you get it done right its a great car. i honeslty think without the boom of hondas in the late 90s early 00's the wrx, evo sti wouldnt be here.


Motor wise the b series is nice. depends i guess on the track configuration and if you perfer more torque or higher revs. spoon has a b16b(civic type r) reving up to 11k. i have friends that has build b20/vtecs or frank motors to get what they need.

brakes you can actually put nsx calipers on the itr five lug setup and the itr four lug setup. and i believe the regular gsr setup so you can get oem big brake kits and fit small light 15in rims.

Carlo

[EFIxMR]

I think hondas are great cars, too bad that a lot of the owners gave the car a bad reputation.

[MarkSAE]

I think the fastest H4 cars run in the 2:04 range at T-hill w/ the bypass.* With the power restrictions of that class, I can only imagine how much speed those guys are carrying through the turns.

The good thing about Hondas and Miatas is that they both use a double wishbone front suspension, which is much more ideal for tracking compared to macpherson.* I think an integra GSR or Type-R would suite you just fine.

I've always liked the simplicity of Hondas. EVOs are fast, but there are so many parts that can break since our cars have turbos and AWD.

I still need to figure out what to do w/ my hatches.* ;)

[ZK]

If you are planning on running a Honda, invest in a good LSD and a large rear sway bar. It will help the car rotate quite a bit. I also think the stock brakes on Hondas are rather sub-standard so a good idea to go with a BBK or at least some aggressive pads.

Tons of fun, remember to keep the revs up. Once you have the hang of it, you should be able to go through most of the track with the RPMs above 6K and the VTEC screaming. :)

Definitely only look at a GSR and up unless you want to have a engine swapped Civic. The single cam cars are not really worth looking at. Secure parking is definitely a must for any modified Honda.

[Matz]

And the thousands of dollars of 100 octane...


Sorry to play devil's advocate, but it would suck to not see any more sweet CB Evo videos... so all I have to say is that your statement above can no longer be used to justify not tracking your Evo, because later on you said:



Using 91 octane all day at the track sounds good too. ;)


:)

[L84AD8]

Yo Bryan! Check out this link. It has a lot of info on integra. :cool:

http://www.team-integra.net/sections/articles/default.asp

[hagakure]

Bryan,

I feel you completely. If the racecar drive does not pan out for me next year I need to be thinking about another car as well. It's pathetic that a dedicated D/C sport racer like a West Racing car (Stohr) or radical is MUCH cheaper to run than an evo, brakes, maintenance, etc KILL you on these cars. I'm thinking hard about selling mine. While I do not want to go the civic route, I'm seriously thinking about getting an elise, and race-prepping it, or possibly an S-2000, normally aspirated and race-prepped. the fuel costs alone are getting to be a bit much. We spend as much on fuel for a trackday, sometimes MORE than the entry fee. An Elise gets 15-18 MPG on track, an Evo 3-5...go figure.











Man one headgasket and one tranny and your already thinking about defecting?!? INFIDEL!!! :P


And the thousands of dollars of 100 octane, and the tires, and the 4 sets of rotors/pads I have been through in less then 10 events, and the 2 gallon milk jugs I have full of old motul brake fluid at $14 bux a 1/2L, etc etc.

I'm just getting cold feet and the tranny isn't even out of the car yet. Love the car it just gave me a slap of financial reality this event. I'll keep it for a daily driver but a honda or miata for the track is looking better and better now.

[dohcvtec]

Question for the honda peeps.

What type of lap times are Integras capable of at say, thunderhill? With the stock motor, no swap.


H4 guys running Integra LS's are around 2:06 or so with bypass. H1 cars are hitting 2:00 now.



What is the better platform for a track car and why? (civic hatch vs civic coupe vs civic del sol vs acura integra)


Civic hatch is the lightest, but like Andy I don't like the SOHC motors (even though they are SUPER cheap). For you I would tell you to get an integra GSR.



Are the wheelbases all pretty much the same?


I'm pretty certain the wheel bases are the same, with the exception of the del sol being the shortest wheel base of them all.



How much are replacement parts (the more expensive ones like tranny, bottom end)


Andy covered this part very well.



How do the rotors and hubs and bearings hold up? (how much are good rotors?)


I've had to replace my wheel bearings only once in the 25,000 miles i've owned and tracked my honda (not sure how many miles of those are track miles though). Rotors, don't get "good rotors" get the autozone $13.99 rotors which will last as long as the race pads, but at that price they're disposable. Rear brakes are hardly used, I use the cheapest rear pads I can find at Kragen and I've never replaced the rear rotors. I disagree with the BBK needed for the Honda, the stock brakes are good enough. Just get some SS lines, ATE or Motul fluid and some good pads (my fav, hawk blues!) Also tires and wheels are much cheaper, 15x7 rotas for $425 a set and some 205/50/15 RA1's.



What type of weight are we looking at for a track-prepped honda? (still with bumper beams however)

anywhere from 2100 - 2300lbs based on which car. Integra probably around 2300lbs

Other things for getting the car track ready. Suspension, get some Ground Control coilovers with custom valved Koni yellows which will run about $1000 for the whole setup, and you can pick your own spring rates. I like having a stiffer spring in the front. Get a comptech tie bar/sway bar combo, or just the OEM ITR rear sway bar.

[hagakure]

Unless the track records at t-hill have changed recently, here are the H1 and H4 records for T-hill from the honda challenge site:

Thunderhill Raceway*

Class* Driver* Machine* Time* Date*
H1 Brandon Kraus* *2:02.571 09/11/05
H4 Donna Gilio* 1990 Civic Si* 2:04.469 10/29/05

that's excellent..I saw brandon's car at Roger Krause (He is roger's son), and it's an integra...these things can obviously get very very hooked up. Might be a better way to go than I thought. Shows me that I need to carry a LOT more speed through the turns than I currently am:) Amazing. Brandon's car is about 200 WHP at 2100 pounds.

[KareBearPowa]

I thought brandon had a prelude?

[dohcvtec]

He does have a prelude :)

[KareBearPowa]

Is it this video or the does the K20A really sound this shitty?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6417168388975917686

Do hondas not have much grip because his in-corner speeds do not look high at all.

[dohcvtec]

haha, must be his exhaust and the bare interior of the car sounding like that.

[hagakure]

He does have a prelude :)


Sorry guys...I mean't prelude):

[leif]

brandon drives the wheels off of his prelude, its nuts.

a type r would be an awsome track car, but i think they're still pretty pricey, its hard to search through the junk on craigslist, but the two i found were both $15k, which im assuming is a bit more than you want to pay.

[MarkSAE]

Let's not forget about the minimum weight requirements for each of the Honda Challenge classes. I am sure some of the cars would be a lot faster if they didn't have to follow these weight requirements.

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Honda-Challenge.pdf

[ek9_evo9]

although im partial to the type r, think of expenses as far as damaged parts.

A GSR is far more common and readily available in the market. hell i can get a full obd2 GSR swap for $1500 installed with tranny, and ecu.

if anything id go with the lighter EG with a GSR swap for track use only. stock for stock the hp/weight ratio is great plus little to no modification needed for the swap and still reliable.

[MarkSAE]

A GSR is far more common and readily available in the market. hell i can get a full obd2 GSR swap for $1500 installed with tranny, and ecu.

if anything id go with the lighter EG with a GSR swap for track use only. stock for stock the hp/weight ratio is great plus little to no modification needed for the swap and still reliable.


Where the hell can you get a B18C swap for $1500 installed? Most JDM engine importer places want like $3k for just the swap parts alone.

[ZK]

Where the hell can you get a B18C swap for $1500 installed? Most JDM engine importer places want like $3k for just the swap parts alone.


+1 Most places will charge 3K for the engine and swap parts alone not including labor. You can probably get a B16A swap for 1.5K not including labor - still a potent engine in a Civic hatch.

Also, remember the cost of legalizing your swap if you plan to drive it on the street at all. You would need a USDM motor, ECU and all smog equipment intact. Unless you have the hook up for the "magic smog" route as many swapped cars go. :lol:

[KareBearPowa]

I also said If I did do this, I don't want to deal with a swap.

[MarkSAE]

Unless you come across a nice hatch that already has a swap Bryan. ;)



+1 Most places will charge 3K for the engine and swap parts alone not including labor. You can probably get a B16A swap for 1.5K not including labor - still a potent engine in a Civic hatch.

Also, remember the cost of legalizing your swap if you plan to drive it on the street at all. You would need a USDM motor, ECU and all smog equipment intact. Unless you have the hook up for the "magic smog" route as many swapped cars go. :lol:


Getting a swap BAR'd is not that hard. People who get JDM engines just swap intake manifolds w/ a USDM unit cuz it has all the smog stuff.

[ek9_evo9]

who said anything about b18c?

im talkigna bout the USDM GSR swap

not the JDM ITR...shit my friend got one of those and cost him $5000 back in the day including install.

[dohcvtec]

Werd, I went throught the BAR processes with my first swap, took only 3 times to pass. *:P

Bryan, get that CRX with B16 in it. *:) *It already has a BAR sticker.

[dohcvtec]

who said anything about b18c?

im talkigna bout the USDM GSR swap

not the JDM ITR...shit my friend got one of those and cost him $5000 back in the day including install.


USDM is B18C1, pretty much the same thing. Show me where you can find even a USDM swap for that much, they are usually more expensive than the JDM ones.

[hellz Evo]

EG's are really good, I had one but the stolen part is true, they took mine along with my trailer. Parts are cheap compared to an evo. Problem that I have is finding a good one.

[peter]

my friend is selling his GSR if you're interested

specs and pics in here:
http://www.norcalevo.net/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=2&topic=11111.0


i'll see if i can a final pricing on it from him

[ek9_evo9]

ill get shop info tomorrow, some guy handed me a business card while i was washing my hatchie last weekend :wink:

[MarkSAE]

my friend is selling his GSR if you're interested

specs and pics in here:
http://www.norcalevo.net/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=2&topic=11111.0


i'll see if i can a final pricing on it from him


Uhh.. I think you got the wrong GSR. *We're talking about a DC2 GSR here.

[dohcvtec]

that is a DC2 in that thread, go towards the bottom :P

[ek9_evo9]

that is a DC2 in that thread, go towards the bottom :P


:lol:

[MarkSAE]

haha.. I just got pwn3d!

[peter]

lol delete msg and no one will ever know

[EFIxMR]

I highly doubt a GSR USDM swap is $1500 installed, unless it was a hot motor or something. The price on B series has gone down, but I don't think its that low.

[ek9_evo9]

I highly doubt a GSR USDM swap is $1500 installed, unless it was a hot motor or something. The price on B series has gone down, but I don't think its that low.


possibly...shop is in stockton/modesto

[drunk monkey]

you can get a legit 1500 gsr swap. you just have to look hard enough, to turn up.

carlo