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tirbolag9
11-05-2006, 10:16 PM
here are my logs from evo scan with a "works" p2r flash. i should have started logging at a lower rpm and stopped at a higher rpm. a friend of mine was with me, so he was logging while i was doing the driving. we're both new to evoscan datalogging so newbie mistakes existed....but its pretty self explanatory, "works" needs to re-tune my car.

this is on an eov ix mr at 9200 miles. everything stock except for p2r flash and works drop in filter. used 91 shell gasoline ( i know, i know...shell sucks. but was the only gas station nearby or would have ran empty to the bone)...third gear pull at night on an empty stretch of road in san mateo.



CoolantTemp RPM TPS KnockSum
182.0449 1687.5 100 0
182.0449 1718.75 100 0
182.0449 1750 100 0
182.0449 1781.25 100 0
182.0449 1843.75 100 0
182.0449 1906.25 100 0
182.0449 1937.5 100 0
182.0449 2031.25 100 0
182.0449 2093.75 100 0
182.0449 2156.25 100 0
182.0449 2187.5 100 0
182.0449 2250 100 0
182.0449 2312.5 100 0
182.0449 2375 100 0
182.0449 2437.5 100 0
182.0449 2500 100 0
182.0449 2562.5 100 0
182.0449 2625 100 0
182.0449 2718.75 100 0
182.0449 2781.25 100 0
182.0449 2843.75 100 0
182.0449 2937.5 100 0
182.0449 3031.25 100 0
182.0449 3125 100 0
182.0449 3218.75 100 0
182.0449 3343.75 100 0
182.0449 3500 100 0
182.0449 3625 100 2
182.0449 3781.25 100 2
182.0449 3875 100 2
182.0449 3968.75 100 2
182.0449 4093.75 100 1
182.0449 4218.75 100 1
182.0449 4375 100 1
182.0449 4468.75 100 1
182.0449 4625 100 0
182.0449 4750 100 0
182.0449 4875 100 0
182.0449 5000 100 0
182.0449 5125 100 2
182.0449 5218.75 100 2
182.0449 5343.75 100 1
182.0449 5437.5 100 4
182.0449 5593.75 100 4
182.0449 5687.5 100 4
182.0449 5843.75 100 5
182.0449 5968.75 100 6
182.0449 6062.5 100 6
182.0449 6187.5 100 6
182.0449 6250 100 11
182.0449 6343.75 100 10
182.0449 6437.5 100 12
182.0449 6562.5 100 12
182.0449 6656.25 100 14
182.0449 6750 100 14
182.0449 6812.5 100 13
182.0449 6906.25 100 19

UCB
11-05-2006, 10:18 PM
you might want to edit out the timing map, most consider the timing portion of a tune proprietary information

earlyapex1
11-05-2006, 10:19 PM
you might want to edit out the timing map, most consider the timing portion of a tune proprietary information


Well now we know why they don't make any torque. ;)

UCB
11-05-2006, 10:21 PM
I wasn't going to say anything, but yeah it all makes sense now why the works cars were putting down like 40ltlbs less than whp :P

tirbolag9
11-05-2006, 10:25 PM
you might want to edit out the timing map, most consider the timing portion of a tune proprietary information


kool thanks. so much to learn...so much to deal with after reading all the post about works cars knocking.

dizhungryguy
11-05-2006, 10:28 PM
probably i miss'd something...i have works p2r and still confused why i have so low WHP and TQ numbers???..

BigEd925
11-05-2006, 10:30 PM
probably i miss'd something...i have works p2r and still confused why i have so low WHP and TQ numbers???..



log it, log it, log it, log it!!! do it now!

Evo442
11-05-2006, 10:32 PM
Whats is an "acceptable" amount of knock on evoscan? Â* I get a knock count of one or two at a couple of places on my evoscan log

EFIxMR
11-05-2006, 10:34 PM
0-5 is what is considered ok due to variation on gas and weather. in a controlled environment, on the dyno i target for 0 knock counts.

a stock map on 91 often knocks to 10-15 on the top end, which is also why it doesn't make much power, and has a shaky powerband.

EvoRicer
11-05-2006, 10:36 PM
Aren't the Works Flashes Just a "flash" that they use from a different Evo anywayz (test Evo)? Â*So considering how all cars Act different you can't expect a flash from a different car to work the same right? Â*It's not like the P2's are a custom tune like the EcuFlash...sorry i'm a n00b to tuning so i'm just putting my opinion out there...Plus I don't have any Works parts so Im not a Works whore...sorry...

dizhungryguy
11-05-2006, 10:37 PM
0-5 is what is considered ok due to variation on gas and weather. in a controlled environment, on the dyno i target for 0 knock counts.

a stock map on 91 often knocks to 10-15 on the top end, which is also why it doesn't make much power, and has a shaky powerband.


this is the reason why im going to let andy tweak my car..

tirbolag9
11-05-2006, 10:38 PM
i logged 6-7 runs and what i didn't post was that at 7300+ rpms...i logged 20+something knock. this run, i think started logs at 4k rpms. don't think that would change anything, but i would hate to see knock counts on crappier gas than shell.

tirbolag9
11-05-2006, 10:40 PM
Aren't the Works Flashes Just a "flash" that they use from a different Evo anywayz (test Evo)? So considering how all cars Act different you can't expect a flash from a different car to work the same right? It's not like the P2's are a custom tune like the EcuFlash...sorry i'm a n00b to tuning so i'm just putting my opinion out there...Plus I don't have any Works parts so Im not a Works whore...sorry...


when i got my car flashed, they didn't do any custom road tuning or tweaking. the only thing they was to make sure that the idle was stable by driving it around for a bit.

tirbolag9
11-05-2006, 10:42 PM
0-5 is what is considered ok due to variation on gas and weather. in a controlled environment, on the dyno i target for 0 knock counts.

a stock map on 91 often knocks to 10-15 on the top end, which is also why it doesn't make much power, and has a shaky powerband.




this is the reason why im going to let andy tweak my car..


i'm gonna see what works can do. i hope they can remedy the situation...

tirbolag9
11-05-2006, 10:48 PM
awww dam :shock:

do they lock their maps? if things don't go too well, i will give speedelement a try...heard and read so many good things about them. dam, i should have gone with them...aight, hope works can fix things and i won't get my hopes up :(

UCB
11-05-2006, 10:52 PM
No...im just saying..you paid a lot of money for that base flash...but unfortunately its just that, a base flash. You cant expect dyno tuned numbers out of a flash, even though they cost the same

If I were you, I would bitch and moan a ton to works to at least get your car running knock free, its up to them to tweak the map itself to improve the torque issues

dizhungryguy
11-05-2006, 10:54 PM
0-5 is what is considered ok due to variation on gas and weather. in a controlled environment, on the dyno i target for 0 knock counts.

a stock map on 91 often knocks to 10-15 on the top end, which is also why it doesn't make much power, and has a shaky powerband.




this is the reason why im going to let andy tweak my car..


i'm gonna see what works can do. i hope they can remedy the situation...


cool give me an update bro...

BigEd925
11-05-2006, 10:59 PM
650 = 450 andy tune, 80 MBC, 120 LICP FTMFWB!

tirbolag9
11-05-2006, 11:01 PM
cool give me an update bro...



werd...will do.

UCB
11-05-2006, 11:01 PM
Andy charges a bit more for IXs, but yeah....

tirbolag9
11-05-2006, 11:06 PM
i bet not as much as works charges... but before i say anymore, i'll let works check up on my car.

mygsx
11-06-2006, 12:39 AM
keep us updated ;)

MAB1025
11-06-2006, 01:34 AM
I'm actually going to go straight to WORKS and have them log my car. Atleast this way they will have it first hand logged by them. I'll update here as things progress

warpspeed
11-06-2006, 02:44 AM
I have a '03 with a P2 flash.Â* Right from the get go I felt I loss torque.Â* I took it back to Pete after a couple of weeks and he drove the car and said the car felt normal.Â* I didn't bother then because they were the only one local that tuned Evos back then.Â* Since now with Ecutek and such, I am going to get rid of my P2 and retune it for my specific car/mods.Â* Not to put down Works, I am just sharing my experience with their flash.

ST
11-06-2006, 04:54 AM
I'm actually going to go straight to WORKS and have them log my car. Atleast this way they will have it first hand logged by them. I'll update here as things progress


how do they go about logging your car? evoscan or ?

Evo442
11-06-2006, 07:39 AM
0-5 is what is considered ok due to variation on gas and weather. in a controlled environment, on the dyno i target for 0 knock counts.

a stock map on 91 often knocks to 10-15 on the top end, which is also why it doesn't make much power, and has a shaky powerband.


thanks!

SouthernCrane
11-06-2006, 08:45 AM
As a current P2 owner, this is pretty disturbing, especially since the last time i dyno'ed my car, it pulled timing around 6500 and wasn't getting consistant numbers on the Gruppe-S dyno.

tirbolag9
11-06-2006, 10:52 AM
i plan on showing works my logs. hopefully they can log my stuff as well and re-tune my ecu. i'm gonna give them a call today and set up an appointment. will update asap.

tirbolag9
11-06-2006, 10:55 AM
I have a '03 with a P2 flash. Right from the get go I felt I loss torque. I took it back to Pete after a couple of weeks and he drove the car and said the car felt normal. I didn't bother then because they were the only one local that tuned Evos back then. Since now with Ecutek and such, I am going to get rid of my P2 and retune it for my specific car/mods. Not to put down Works, I am just sharing my experience with their flash.


come to think of it, torque feels a little low on my car too! i'm with you man...not trying too put down works. basically why i posted my logs to share what i just found out with the p2r flash. gotta love evoscan :)

earlyapex1
11-06-2006, 11:02 AM
One thing I urge anyone that is logging their car to do is make sure you do multiple logs and for the 9's, make sure the car is really nice and warmed up.

I've logged a bunch of 9's over the last month and most of them seem to show some knock counts out of the gate(even if at operating temp), but once the car has been driven around they are fine.

This is something that usually isn't seen on the dyno since the cars get hot much faster because of less airflow.

UCB
11-06-2006, 11:09 AM
ic ic...yeah my nearly stock IX was knocking on the dyno though (6-10 counts in the higher RPM range)

earlyapex1
11-06-2006, 11:15 AM
ic ic...yeah my nearly stock IX was knocking on the dyno though (6-10 counts in the higher RPM range)


Well if it's a map that really knocks its a map that really knocks. Which is why I urge people to do multiple logs. ;)

ST
11-06-2006, 11:22 AM
One thing I urge anyone that is logging their car to do is make sure you do multiple logs and for the 9's, make sure the car is really nice and warmed up.

I've logged a bunch of 9's over the last month and most of them seem to show some knock counts out of the gate(even if at operating temp), but once the car has been driven around they are fine.

This is something that usually isn't seen on the dyno since the cars get hot much faster because of less airflow.


just keep temps around 180F....

earlyapex1
11-06-2006, 11:25 AM
just keep temps around 180F....


Yup, they where. It's been something I have been chasing for awhile. The other theory is that the 9's might be a but more sensitive to heat soak. As I can almost bet that every pull after sitting in a parking lot will knock but after that its fine.

I can post some logs later today once I get some work out of the way.

ST
11-06-2006, 11:28 AM
just keep temps around 180F....


Yup, they where. It's been something I have been chasing for awhile. The other theory is that the 9's might be a but more sensitive to heat soak. As I can almost bet that every pull after sitting in a parking lot will knock but after that its fine.

I can post some logs later today once I get some work out of the way.


agreed i find this too...especially after 10-12+ consecutive runs...most dyno fans cannot simulate real world air circulation. ive seen mystery knock caused by this that is alleviated just by letting it cool off a little. i typically do a real world road datalog after the tune too just in case....

BigEd925
11-06-2006, 12:23 PM
just keep temps around 180F....


Yup, they where. It's been something I have been chasing for awhile. The other theory is that the 9's might be a but more sensitive to heat soak. As I can almost bet that every pull after sitting in a parking lot will knock but after that its fine.

I can post some logs later today once I get some work out of the way.



Yea Bryan is talking about my car, it knocked 5-8 counts during the first couple of runs. After driving it around for ~10 min the knock count was down to 0-1. Good luck with Works everyone, im glad to see evoscan bringing power to the people.

whtrice
11-06-2006, 03:08 PM
I just run 100 ..Got no probs with knock..That was easy.

dominoes!

i wonder if the other worx hoes will ever have the guts to log their cars....

BigEd925
11-06-2006, 03:09 PM
I just run 100 ..Got no probs with knock..That was easy.

dominoes!

i wonder if the other worx hoes will ever have the guts to log their cars....




I just run 91 and got 0-1 counts of knock, that was easier!!!

whtrice
11-06-2006, 03:13 PM
I can keep my timing...Next...



I just run 100 ..Got no probs with knock..That was easy.

dominoes!

i wonder if the other worx hoes will ever have the guts to log their cars....




I just run 91 and got 0-1 counts of knock, that was easier!!!

nebolic
11-06-2006, 03:17 PM
dominoes!

i wonder if the other worx hoes will ever have the guts to log their cars....


Chill on the name calling.

thanks
Nebo

earlyapex1
11-06-2006, 03:24 PM
I can keep my timing...Next...

If it wasn't knocking you would keep your timing on 91. Last time I checked Eds car, none of his timing was "lost".

BigEd925
11-06-2006, 03:36 PM
I can keep my timing...Next...

If it wasn't knocking you would keep your timing on 91. Last time I checked Eds car, none of his timing was "lost".


+1 your quote make no sense, If you pay for a p2 whatever flash on 91 octane, then you shouldnt have to run 100 to make it run right.

tirbolag9
11-06-2006, 03:59 PM
i'm gonna try to do more datalogs tonite...using different gas. although i'll be mixing gas (shell +76 coz i have a 1/4 tank of shell right now) i don't think it'll make a difference. this time i'll try to start logs form 1500 all the way till 7600rpms.

will post logs again later on tonite. anyone know how i can post logs in excel format? sorry for the noob question :)

earlyapex1
11-06-2006, 04:47 PM
you don't have to start that low, 2200-2500 should work.

SouthernCrane
11-06-2006, 05:10 PM
dominoes!

i wonder if the other worx hoes will ever have the guts to log their cars....



Chill on the name calling.

thanks
Nebo



yeah, yeah, i'm no hoe! I am willing to have my car datalogged.........as i stated before, the car pulled timing on the gruppe-s dyno, and was not getting consistent readings........i want to make sure i'm not driving around a time bomb.

Evo442
11-06-2006, 05:46 PM
dominoes!

i wonder if the other worx hoes will ever have the guts to log their cars....



Chill on the name calling.

thanks
Nebo



yeah, yeah, i'm no hoe!Â* I am willing to have my car datalogged.........as i stated before, the car pulled timing on the gruppe-s dyno, and was not getting consistent readings........i want to make sure i'm not driving around a time bomb.


Hey Bryan - if you're ever in town, drop by - i've got evoscan and one of those cables. :)

ReSin
11-06-2006, 05:51 PM
I'd like to have my kaa datalogged as well, since I have a P1 tune. Once Andy (Speed Element) is able to tune again, my P1 was going bye-bye anyways...but now I'd like to know if I had a safe tune with all this crazy crap coming out.

Dennis

tirbolag9
11-06-2006, 05:52 PM
dominoes!

i wonder if the other worx hoes will ever have the guts to log their cars....


me, a works hoe? no not me :)

whtrice
11-06-2006, 06:03 PM
So I think you know better then that....Knock.."pulls" timing. Unless I misread all the posts you have made about the timing being pulled. I noticed when my P2 flash was put on originally the "issue" was there. Became more apparent as the days got warmer. I figured it was due to either to much boost or timing at higher RPM's. Instead of calling WORKS on it I run 100 octane. I have no problem with that and that is my poragative. I also have now problem with people that want to address the issue that are running 91 octane. Contact WORKS thats why they are their.Quit making everything a freekin witch hunt. Most due well but some love to dwell in it. That serves no purpose and makes no sense.



I can keep my timing...Next...

If it wasn't knocking you would keep your timing on 91. Last time I checked Eds car, none of his timing was "lost".

whtrice
11-06-2006, 06:09 PM
So I think you know better then that....Knock.."pulls" timing. Unless I misread all the posts you have made about the timing being pulled. I noticed when my P2 flash was put on originally the "issue" was there. Became more apparent as the days got warmer. I figured it was due to either to much boost or timing at higher RPM's. Instead of calling WORKS on it I run 100 octane. I have no problem with that and that is my prerogative. I also have now problem with people that want to address the issue that are running 91 octane. Contact WORKS thats why they are their.Quit making everything a freekin witch hunt. Most do well but some love to dwell in it. That serves no purpose and makes no sense.



I can keep my timing...Next...

If it wasn't knocking you would keep your timing on 91. Last time I checked Eds car, none of his timing was "lost".

earlyapex1
11-06-2006, 06:13 PM
Quit making everything a freekin witch hunt. Most due well but some love to dwell in it. That serves no purpose and makes no sense.

Show me where I made everything a witch hunt? Your posts make no sense whatsoever.

whtrice
11-06-2006, 06:17 PM
I said some people..Specifically the ones that post post about works hoes..Other then that what needs clarification???



Quit making everything a freekin witch hunt. Most due well but some love to dwell in it. That serves no purpose and makes no sense.

Show me where I made everything a witch hunt? Your posts make no sense whatsoever.

earlyapex1
11-06-2006, 06:18 PM
I said some people..Specifically the ones that post post about works hoes..Other then that what needs clarification???[quote


You quoted me maybe?

whtrice
11-06-2006, 06:22 PM
This was your quote? I don't think so.....

dominoes!

i wonder if the other worx hoes will ever have the guts to log their cars....

earlyapex1
11-06-2006, 06:28 PM
This was your quote? I don't think so.....

dominoes!

i wonder if the other worx hoes will ever have the guts to log their cars....



http://www.norcalevo.net/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=2&topic=13769.msg187658#msg187658

whtrice
11-06-2006, 06:34 PM
Looks like you discovered a self eating watermelon....



This was your quote? I don't think so.....

dominoes!

i wonder if the other worx hoes will ever have the guts to log their cars....



http://www.norcalevo.net/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=2&topic=13769.msg187658#msg187658

ST
11-06-2006, 06:40 PM
ignorance is bliss!

p.s. nebo - will do ;)

whtrice
11-06-2006, 06:44 PM
Schools out then..Hopeless class.

whtrice
11-06-2006, 07:01 PM
But you already know the problem. There appears to be too much timing in the WORKS maps..Correct?
What will more loggings do. ?? Bring up facts you already have proved by logging? The issue now is the way each customer cares to handle the issue. Either they have WORKS revise there maps because of the knock issue. Or I decided to run 100 octane..Since the timing is too aggressive for 91 and is fine for 100. I am going to have mine re-tuned after the addition of a larger turbo so I am not to concerned with the tune I have now. Also let it be known that during my dyno day when I ran 100, all my runs were extremely consistant and that was pointed out by the dyno operator at DBtuned..Paul.

Matz
11-06-2006, 07:16 PM
This was your quote? I don't think so.....

dominoes!

i wonder if the other worx hoes will ever have the guts to log their cars....



This is what earlyapex is talking about...

http://www.initialdproject.com/images/whtricequote.gif

earlyapex1
11-06-2006, 07:34 PM
But you already know the problem. There appears to be too much timing in the WORKS maps..Correct?


incorrect. ;)

whtrice
11-06-2006, 07:51 PM
Then I must have a different issue since 100 took care of my knock. So you are still fishing and need more data?

whtrice
11-06-2006, 08:04 PM
I see..I forgot to include the other comment in my post. ... sorry



This was your quote? I don't think so.....

dominoes!

i wonder if the other worx hoes will ever have the guts to log their cars....



This is what earlyapex is talking about...

http://www.initialdproject.com/images/whtricequote.gif

evoboy
11-06-2006, 09:34 PM
Quit making everything a freekin witch hunt.

This is not a witch hunt...

This is the truth finally coming out. I understand that you are new to our community, but all these years, we have heard Works claim superiority based on their engineering skills.

When their flashes on first started hitting the Gruppe-S dyno... They told their customers that their dyno results were flawed because the Gruppe-S dyno was broken. Now more recently, at the EIP meet the Works reflash results are equally poor. Is the EIP dyno broken too?

Since the introduction of EVOscan, people are frustrated because they have paid a premium price for their flash, and it turns out it is neither POWERFUL nor is it SAFE. A lot of people choose Works because they believe their tunes to be conservative, but when the truth comes out on EVOscan, their tunes are not conservative and actually have a TON of KNOCK!

Maybe to the high paid engineers at Works, $550 for a flash might not be much, but just think of how many hours the common person needs to work to make that much money. All the Works crew needs to do is hook up a cable and in 20 secs upload their P2 and make as much money as a normal person makes in a week! That is almost as good if not better than printing your own money.

When I worked at Gruppe-S, this story of disappointment was all too common.

It seems the strategy of Works is to spend a lot of money on marketing, catching all the new car buyers with hype and promises... but when it comes out to the actual product... It is more expensive and fails to deliever any more performance and often times under delievers compared to products and services costing less!

So, this is not a Witch hunt... this is a case where our community has been finally given tools to maintain a check and balance with vendors who make a lot of money off of us.

I might get in trouble or maybe even ban for saying this but I don't give a shit. I have always push for products that work and give customers my honest opinion. I would say 95% of all Works tuned car don't make the power that it should on Gruppe-S dyno and their AFR extremely lean up top. Everytime anyone pointed that out, people always come out to defend Works without the know how or any evidence that they have a safe tune. Just because a vendor say something, it doesn't always mean its 100% true. FYI in case you were wonder, I am in no way working for any shop. I been out of the car biz for over a year.

How does "must run 100 octane for the 91 octane tune" make sense? I don't get it....


Tom

SilverStreak
11-06-2006, 10:07 PM
I am going to chime in here.

First off...well said Evoboy. 8)

This isn't a witchhunt. EA and ST did some runs/tests and showed the results and a problem.
The ball is in Works hands now. From a service standpoint...there is a potential problem...they need to remedy it on a customer to customer basis.

I have my own personal issues with them which is why i didn't go with them.

And I will NEVER accept 100 octane as the fix. It should run safely on pump gas...not high octane borderline race gas.

In short...if anything there is a problem...its in Works hands. We shouldn't be bashing EA and ST. What would have happend if they never pointed this out? I would rather have the cat out of the bag and being discussed rather than making up excuses and shoving it into a corner and hope it goes away or is forgotten.

Calling out members, questioning them, and using petty name calling won't fix anything. There is a problem...and yelling at ST and EA won't make things go away. Again...the ball is in Works court...lets see what they do with it.

SouthernCrane
11-06-2006, 10:52 PM
Hey Bryan - if you're ever in town, drop by - i've got evoscan and one of those cables. :)


Will do.......i am hoping to meet up with someone closer to me before then to check things out.

Matz
11-06-2006, 11:47 PM
Hey Bryan - if you're ever in town, drop by - i've got evoscan and one of those cables. :)


Will do.......i am hoping to meet up with someone closer to me before then to check things out.


Bryan, I have one too. Let me know if you want to borrow the cable. You'll have to get EvoScan, though... i think it's a pretty cheap download.

nj1266
11-07-2006, 12:40 AM
I just stumbled on this thread from Evom and I want to ahare this story about Works. I am not a noob and I do tune my own car. I know EA from Evom and Socal Evo and I trust his judgement. The logging does dovetail with what my friend experienced.

My friend bought an Evo 8 amonth after I got mine. The car has TBE, filter, and 264/272 cams. He then went with Works and got his ECU flashed. Works did not even tell him to upgrade to Walbro fuel pump even though he told them he has cams. That, by itself, blows me away. People are using a walbro on an 8 with a TBE, but Works never mentioned the pump on a cammed car.

He recently called me and told me that he went to TT in Socal and got them to read his ECU ROM. It was locked, but thanks to MJ's unlocker tool they were able to read it. TT found out that his AFR is barely changed and his timing is stock except for one small part of the map. He was furious that he has had to $550 for this. TT was also shocked that Works did not tell him to upgrade the fuel pump.

He asked me to log his car so we can know what is going on, but I am concerned that we might end up hurting the engine is we go WOT w/o a fuel pump on a cammed car. Now that I read this I really want to log his car. I have everything I need to log it; the evoscan, the tactrix cable and an LM-1 wideband. The only thing I cannot log is his boost. But I can read his Rom and look at the boost settings in the map.

My question is this: Should I log his car? Or would we cause damage to the car if we do so? I am planning on doing 4 logs in 3rd gear.

After that he wants to get the car re-tuned @ TT. Alfred @ TT gave him a great deal. It includes an MBC, a fuel pump, and UNLIMITED dyno time to get the flash done properly. All this for $400.

ST
11-07-2006, 12:55 AM
.....
My question is this: Should I log his car? Or would we cause damage to the car if we do so? I am planning on doing 4 logs in 3rd gear.

After that he wants to get the car re-tuned @ TT. Alfred @ TT gave him a great deal. It includes an MBC, a fuel pump, and UNLIMITED dyno time to get the flash done properly. All this for $400.


nj - i would advise that you do log his car, BUT play very close attention to his IDC's and KS counts. I typically kill a dyno run short if i see more than 10, then retune, then relog again (keeping an eye on AFR's and Octane count as well). I would save his original map to present back to Works w/ the initial logs. I also advise that in addition to the Fuel pump, he should look at injectors, as Im sure when you look at the IPWs, its going to start really saturating on the top end (typical works stuff).

ps. one more bit of advice...try to see if you can datalog the boost from TT's dyno boost sensor or so to see where its tracking and peaking at.

nj1266
11-07-2006, 01:05 AM
.....
My question is this: Should I log his car? Or would we cause damage to the car if we do so? I am planning on doing 4 logs in 3rd gear.

After that he wants to get the car re-tuned @ TT. Alfred @ TT gave him a great deal. It includes an MBC, a fuel pump, and UNLIMITED dyno time to get the flash done properly. All this for $400.


nj - i would advise that you do log his car, BUT play very close attention to his IDC's and KS counts. I typically kill a dyno run short if i see more than 10, then retune, then relog again (keeping an eye on AFR's and Octane count as well). I would save his original map to present back to Works w/ the initial logs. I also advise that in addition to the Fuel pump, he should look at injectors, as Im sure when you look at the IPWs, its going to start really saturating on the top end (typical works stuff).

Thanks ST...I will call him tomorrow and see if he is willing to log his car despite the risks. I will also tell him to get injectors. I have noticed that my Evo hits a max of 90% IDC with only a TBE, a Walbro and an Xede tune. I bet that his IDCs are above 100% given that he has cams.

I will report my findings back to this thread...If it is not closed by then :lol:

ST
11-07-2006, 01:11 AM
This is another log from an aforementioned WORKS tuned car w/ similar mods as your friends. Note his IDCs! It's mindboggling how supposed engineers can derive at upgrading a Throttle Body, but not recommend injectors and/or a fuel pump!



RPM TPS Â* Â* Â* Â* Â*KnockSum Â* Â* Â* Â*InjectorDutyCycle
2062.5 13.7254902 0 3.96
2000 13.7254902 0 2.56
1906.25 13.7254902 0 2.033333333
1906.25 16.07843137 0 1.626666667
1812.5 21.17647059 0 1.933333333
1531.25 23.52941176 0 2.94
1531.25 30.58823529 0 5.226666667
1500 39.21568627 0 5.76
1500 48.23529412 0 5.76
1531.25 75.29411765 0 6.86
1593.75 99.60784314 0 7.14
1625 99.60784314 0 7.626666667
1687.5 99.60784314 0 7.92
1718.75 99.60784314 0 8.433333333
1781.25 99.60784314 0 9.12
1843.75 99.60784314 0 9.44
1906.25 99.60784314 0 10.16666667
1937.5 99.60784314 0 10.33333333
2000 99.60784314 0 11.52
2062.5 99.60784314 0 11.44
2125 99.60784314 0 12.24
2187.5 99.60784314 0 12.6
2250 99.60784314 0 13.44
2312.5 99.60784314 0 13.81333333
2406.25 99.60784314 0 14.88666667
2468.75 99.60784314 0 15.27333333
2531.25 99.60784314 0 16.74
2625 99.60784314 1 18.48
2687.5 99.60784314 1 20.06666667
2781.25 99.60784314 1 21.95333333
2843.75 99.60784314 1 24.87333333
2968.75 99.60784314 0 28.5
3062.5 99.60784314 0 33.32
3156.25 99.60784314 0 39.05333333
3312.5 99.60784314 2 46.64
3406.25 99.60784314 1 53.04666667
3562.5 99.60784314 1 55.48
3718.75 99.60784314 1 56.32666667
3843.75 99.60784314 1 58.22
4000 99.60784314 1 59.73333333
4156.25 99.60784314 1 59.40666667
4281.25 99.60784314 1 62.10666667
4437.5 99.60784314 1 64.37333333
4562.5 99.60784314 1 66.18666667
4718.75 99.60784314 2 68.45333333
4843.75 99.60784314 2 69.23333333
4968.75 99.60784314 9 71.02
5093.75 99.60784314 9 73.89333333
5218.75 99.60784314 9 76.82
5343.75 99.60784314 8 78.66
5468.75 99.60784314 8 81.66666667
5593.75 99.60784314 8 83.53333333
5718.75 99.60784314 8 82.96
5843.75 99.60784314 10 84.77333333
5968.75 99.60784314 10 85.31333333
6093.75 99.60784314 10 88.4
6218.75 99.60784314 10 87.56
6312.5 99.60784314 17 92.92
6406.25 99.60784314 16 95.66666667
6531.25 99.60784314 16 96.14
6656.25 99.60784314 16 96.56
6750 99.60784314 16 99.36
6875 99.60784314 15 99.73333333
6968.75 99.60784314 20 107.04
7062.5 99.60784314 20 106.9733333
7125 99.60784314 20 107.92
7218.75 99.60784314 20 107.8
7343.75 99.60784314 19 108.1
7437.5 99.60784314 27 112.6533333
7500 99.60784314 27 112
7562.5 99.60784314 27 112.9333333
7656.25 99.60784314 26 114.3333333
7562.5 20.78431373 18 9.68

mygsx
11-07-2006, 04:33 AM
tirbolag9 any update?they gonna give you like a free of half off retune or told you their stuff still works? =X

Matz
11-07-2006, 06:21 AM
nj, well, I'm not even sure why TT would tell your friend to get the Walbro first. If you look at the IDC, it'll probably be around 85% at WOT (at least mine was somewhere around there). So fuel isn't his first problem, it's the fact that the injectors are running so close to 100% that you'll start to lose the ability to tune correctly if you need to add more fuel.

I've been told before that you don't need to upgrade the injectors unless you install a new turbo, but I don't agree with it, so I added them to my Evo anyway. And of course, when you do that, you should upgrade the FP. ;)

For the rest of the guys here, isn't it still okay to run the car to WOT, since the ECU will pull timing anyway? I mean, you definitely should look at the knock counts, but you shouldn't grenade the motor, right? :shock: Of course, maybe I'm wrong since the ECU+ has knock protection. Just wondering.

Evo442
11-07-2006, 07:01 AM
I just stumbled on this thread from Evom and I want to ahare this story about Works. I am not a noob and I do tune my own car. I know EA from Evom and Socal Evo and I trust his judgement. The logging does dovetail with what my friend experienced.

My friend bought an Evo 8 amonth after I got mine. The car has TBE, filter, and 264/272 cams. He then went with Works and got his ECU flashed. Works did not even tell him to upgrade to Walbro fuel pump even though he told them he has cams. That, by itself, blows me away. People are using a walbro on an 8 with a TBE, but Works never mentioned the pump on a cammed car.

He recently called me and told me that he went to TT in Socal and got them to read his ECU ROM. It was locked, but thanks to MJ's unlocker tool they were able to read it. TT found out that his AFR is barely changed and his timing is stock except for one small part of the map. He was furious that he has had to $550 for this. TT was also shocked that Works did not tell him to upgrade the fuel pump.

He asked me to log his car so we can know what is going on, but I am concerned that we might end up hurting the engine is we go WOT w/o a fuel pump on a cammed car. Now that I read this I really want to log his car. I have everything I need to log it; the evoscan, the tactrix cable and an LM-1 wideband. The only thing I cannot log is his boost. But I can read his Rom and look at the boost settings in the map.

My question is this: Should I log his car? Or would we cause damage to the car if we do so? I am planning on doing 4 logs in 3rd gear.

After that he wants to get the car re-tuned @ TT. Alfred @ TT gave him a great deal. It includes an MBC, a fuel pump, and UNLIMITED dyno time to get the flash done properly. All this for $400.


Off topic, sorry - but can someone elaborate on the MJ unlocker tool mentioned above? I have a Works flash along with the tactrix cable and want to take a shot at grenading my motor, but cant download the rom. Help?

SouthernCrane
11-07-2006, 08:15 AM
Bryan, I have one too. Let me know if you want to borrow the cable. You'll have to get EvoScan, though... i think it's a pretty cheap download.


Thanks for the offer Dave..........i will have to look into it, and maybe have you help me with it.





how many freakin Bryan's are in this thread?


at least 3......the weirdest part is that we all spell our names with a "y" instead of the more common "i" spelling. :)

nj1266
11-07-2006, 08:21 AM
Off topic, sorry - but can someone elaborate on the MJ unlocker tool mentioned above? I have a Works flash along with the tactrix cable and want to take a shot at grenading my motor, but cant download the rom. Help?

The unlocker tool is created by Malibu Jack. It can be found on his www.aktivematrix.com web site in the download section. You have to become a member to download the tools that he has. It is free and well worth it IMO.

A direct link to the tool http://www.aktivematrix.com/forum/dload.php?action=category&cat_id=11

ST
11-07-2006, 12:53 PM
For the rest of the guys here, isn't it still okay to run the car to WOT, since the ECU will pull timing anyway? I mean, you definitely should look at the knock counts, but you shouldn't grenade the motor, right? :shock: Of course, maybe I'm wrong since the ECU+ has knock protection. Just wondering.


I guess this is more of a philosphical question. The ECU definitely has timing compensation for knock in both the knock filters as well as octane values (for hi/lo timing interpolation), that is why for me, I call it quits immediately if it goes over a reasonable amount of knock and try to correct it accordingly. There is only so much the ECU can compensate before things do go BANG (witness the Alky thread EA posted with the melted valves!).

olisim
11-07-2006, 01:53 PM
Greetings,

We will be happy to discuss this thread over the phone after time attack on Thursday. If you believe you have an issue, please call us to discuss. We will be at Time Attack at Buttonwillow if any of you are around the area.

Sincerely,

The WORKS Team
415-641-9675
[email protected]

Matz
11-07-2006, 02:38 PM
I thought it was considered acceptable in this industry that shows and races are important to companies, and service / sales must wait until the events are over. Didn't SpeedElement have to close for SEMA? I didn't hear anyone bitch and moan about it. Yes, I realize that they don't have a flash that has issues, but it's the same thing. Do you guys realize that before the Tactrix cable came out, none of us had a clue what was going on with the off the shelf flashes? Yeah, P2 owners definitely have a good reason to complain, but don't tell me that you can't wait 2 days to get a resolution, when many of us have driven for years w/o problems. Give me a break.

ace33joe
11-07-2006, 02:40 PM
^ I agree with Matz.

Matz
11-07-2006, 02:51 PM
Do you guys realize that before the Tactrix cable came out, none of us had a clue what was going on with the off the shelf flashes?


*cough*dyno day results*cough* bad curves*cough*low numbers*cough*earlyapex bringing it up all the time*cough* ;)


Ok, you got me. ;) My AFR curves looked like "the Himalayas"... I think that's how you phrased it? lol However, no one ever talked about knocking.

Matz
11-07-2006, 02:52 PM
earlyapex, Matz, olisim, MarkSAE, EVO Neil, ST, EFIxMR and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.


Who is EVO Neil?

EFIxMR
11-07-2006, 02:53 PM
Hmm, just some editor for a small magazine...

earlyapex1
11-07-2006, 02:53 PM
Who is EVO Neil?


socaler, works at a large auto magazine. ;)

olisim
11-07-2006, 02:54 PM
We have been in the office since this thread was started. Â*We have talked to a few customers that were involved with the EIP Dyno day and we are helping them. Â*We answer every single call that comes to our office, including e-mails. Â*We aren't hiding a thing and welcome any and all discussions. Â*Pick up the phone, dial 415-641-9675... Â*fairly simple.

In terms of playing with our race car, this is what our sponsors demand. Â*This is what we do for marketing, since we don't advertise. Â*And yes, one day a every few months to keep our record intact is not too much to ask, is it?

Sincerely,

The WORKS Team
415-641-9675
[email protected]

ST
11-07-2006, 03:07 PM
We have been in the office since this thread was started.Â* We have talked to a few customers that were involved with the EIP Dyno day and we are helping them.Â* <snip>

Fortunately, I have also been helping some of your customers too and are aware of the repair attempts. However, it seems there is dispariging evidence to suggest that there is something systematically wrong with your P2 flash, as noted by the many bewildered Works customers in this thread. You addressed one such customer by a simple reflash, i.e., you richened up the top a bit to compensate it (without even noting his 115% IDCs i might add), while it should be looked at from an inherent issue within the ECU Flash Design altogether. The surmounting complaints suggests that you may want to invest more time in addressing this....

tirbolag9
11-07-2006, 03:14 PM
tirbolag9 any update?they gonna give you like a free of half off retune or told you their stuff still works? =X


no updates yet. i tried calling works to schedule an appointment, but not one was answering. maybe they took the day off coz of sema? i didn't get a chance to log last nite...got caught up with some errands. but, i'll try to call today to set up an appointment.

i posted my datalogs not to bash works but posted for information purposes. after reading the eip/speedelement threads and other threads regarding works flash, i became concerned about my p2flash. so far, they have been kool with me and i have no ill feelings towards them. maybe a little disappointed that there are boatloads of knock but i hope works can fix things. if they can't make things right, then my hands are washed.

Matz
11-07-2006, 03:39 PM
tirbolag9 any update?they gonna give you like a free of half off retune or told you their stuff still works? =X


no updates yet. i tried calling works to schedule an appointment, but not one was answering. maybe they took the day off coz of sema? i didn't get a chance to log last nite...got caught up with some errands. but, i'll try to call today to set up an appointment.

i posted my datalogs not to bash works but posted for information purposes. after reading the eip/speedelement threads and other threads regarding works flash, i became concerned about my p2flash. so far, they have been kool with me and i have no ill feelings towards them. maybe a little disappointed that there are boatloads of knock but i hope works can fix things. if they can't make things right, then my hands are washed.


You must have missed the EIP tuning thread where everyone was bashing them and Dynoflash, and we even had tuners on evom dropping by to say hi. I don't know where it went though. Maybe a mod deleted it or my search skills are getting worse.

Yakiba
11-07-2006, 03:43 PM
gents, i have the normal p2 flash for my IX, i don't have a dyno or any tools to check anything. What should i do at this moment? how would i check to see if everything is working right? any input is great thanks......

ST
11-07-2006, 03:44 PM
Yakiba, if you are in the San Jose area...go to the Wednesday meet and I can help you. If you are not available then, stop by EIP and I'll be able to log everything for you.

Yakiba
11-07-2006, 03:49 PM
Yakiba, if you are in the San Jose area...go to the Wednesday meet and I can help you. If you are not available then, stop by EIP and I'll be able to log everything for you.


what time is the meet? i am local btw so set up something at the shop is good as well. thanks much !!

ST
11-07-2006, 03:51 PM
here's all the info on the SJ meet Yakiba:

http://www.norcalevo.net/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=2&topic=9615.0

tirbolag9
11-07-2006, 03:56 PM
hey yakiba, get the logs done. if you have the high knock counts, schedule an appointment with works. or you can go with a different tuner...the price for a brainflash is hard to throw away.

tirbolag9
11-07-2006, 03:59 PM
Earlyapex pointed me to this thread. I find it highly amusing. We were probably the first couple of people who spoke up and didn't fall for their super l33t engineering marketing BS. I feel bad for all the money wasted at WORKS. After just about 3 years, I'm glad people are starting to wise up.


man, sometimes i think if going with a works flash was a wise idea. you live and learn. at least my car is driveable and i'll stay away from boosting until i schedule an appointment with works.

Matz
11-07-2006, 04:02 PM
are you referring to the EIP/speed element dyno day thread about 5 threads down? 8)


No, I found a related thread on evom, though. I believe it was a thread started by wzcx. Boy, reading it brought back memories.

hagakure
11-07-2006, 04:07 PM
They are at SEMA.

Percy






tirbolag9 any update?they gonna give you like a free of half off retune or told you their stuff still works? =X


no updates yet. i tried calling works to schedule an appointment, but not one was answering. maybe they took the day off coz of sema? i didn't get a chance to log last nite...got caught up with some errands. but, i'll try to call today to set up an appointment.

i posted my datalogs not to bash works but posted for information purposes. after reading the eip/speedelement threads and other threads regarding works flash, i became concerned about my p2flash. so far, they have been kool with me and i have no ill feelings towards them. maybe a little disappointed that there are boatloads of knock but i hope works can fix things. if they can't make things right, then my hands are washed.

SouthernCrane
11-07-2006, 04:50 PM
Well Bryan has agreed to help datalog my P2 this weekend, so hopefully we'll have another car for the debate. Stay tuned...........

whtrice
11-07-2006, 04:51 PM
So you make 340 whp?

I wasn't going to say anything, but yeah it all makes sense now why the works cars were putting down like 40ltlbs less than whp :P

whtrice
11-07-2006, 05:04 PM
Another 340 whp dyno person ..huh

I can think of cheaper ways to lose 40hp than spending $600 on a Brainfart, I mean Brainflash.

If you want lots of knock and no power, just goto ARCO and fill up on 87. :lol:

whtrice
11-07-2006, 05:20 PM
I already put down 290..plus..And do a search on Dbtuned dyno day. Find the dyno stats..Scott's EVO



You know your wrong..


ignorance is bliss!

whtrice
11-07-2006, 05:22 PM
This is from pg 5 my 3rd post...Since the timing is too aggressive for 91 and is fine for 100. I am going to have mine re-tuned after the addition of a larger turbo so I am not to concerned with the tune I have now.

Why would you want to pay for a Works 91 tune that require you to compensate with 100 to make the same whp as a good 91 tuned car?

whtrice
11-07-2006, 05:30 PM
and..you said I made 240..So your wrong..Holier then Thou!!!quote author=ST link=topic=13769.msg188099#msg188099 date=1162945569]


I already put down 290..plus..And do a search on Dbtuned dyno day. Find the dyno stats..Scott's EVO

and ?

for 1/3 the money spent (as well as the knocks seen) on 91 octane no less, you could of gotten the same thing:

http://www.norcalevo.net/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=2&topic=13786.0

no thx, but we dont need any of your WORX vaseline jar...

earlyapex1
11-07-2006, 07:11 PM
I already put down 290..plus..And do a search on Dbtuned dyno day. Find the dyno stats..Scott's EVO


It has already been established that the DBtuned dyno reads way higher then the gruppe-s and EIP dyno.

whtrice
11-07-2006, 07:28 PM
By about 30 hp..but not 40..



I already put down 290..plus..And do a search on Dbtuned dyno day. Find the dyno stats..Scott's EVO


It has already been established that the DBtuned dyno reads way higher then the gruppe-s and EIP dyno.

earlyapex1
11-07-2006, 07:49 PM
By about 30 hp..but not 40..



I already put down 290..plus..And do a search on Dbtuned dyno day. Find the dyno stats..Scott's EVO


It has already been established that the DBtuned dyno reads way higher then the gruppe-s and EIP dyno.



higher by 30whp? That means your 290whp would be 260whp on the other mustangs here? :-X

Lurk
11-07-2006, 07:50 PM
Another 340 whp dyno person ..huh

I can think of cheaper ways to lose 40hp than spending $600 on a Brainfart, I mean Brainflash.

If you want lots of knock and no power, just goto ARCO and fill up on 87. :lol:



Hahah, actually I only made 310whp on 91. You were close tho...

But I'm sure your engine still knocks louder than my 12" Orion subwoofer. :lol:

missred
11-07-2006, 08:03 PM
Hahah, actually I only made 310whp on 91. You were close tho...

But I'm sure your engine still knocks louder than my 12" Orion subwoofer. :lol: :lol:

byt
11-07-2006, 08:28 PM
Hmm, I had the P2 back in January and put down 250hp/264tq:

http://www.norcalevo.net/forum/index.php/topic,8247.0.html

Too bad this was before the evoscan/ecuflash days so I can't really comment about knock..

Looks like getting good results is a bit mixed with the Works customers.

Evo442
11-07-2006, 09:01 PM
Off topic, sorry - but can someone elaborate on the MJ unlocker tool mentioned above? I have a Works flash along with the tactrix cable and want to take a shot at grenading my motor, but cant download the rom. Help?

The unlocker tool is created by Malibu Jack. It can be found on his www.aktivematrix.com web site in the download section. You have to become a member to download the tools that he has. It is free and well worth it IMO.

A direct link to the tool http://www.aktivematrix.com/forum/dload.php?action=category&cat_id=11


thx!

tirbolag9
11-07-2006, 10:22 PM
hey yakiba, get the logs done. if you have the high knock counts, schedule an appointment with works. or you can go with a different tuner...the price for a brainflash is hard to throw away.


yea i feel cheated by works darn it. i'm so glad to see folks refused to be fooled again!!



i'd say feel cheated when they won't correct things. if they can right things, then time and effort to get to works can somewhat be worth it. to others, maybe not worth their time and money when things don't go right the first time. before i start any bashing (if need be) i wanna get things squared away with the p2 flash. i didn't pay a buttload of money for nuthin :o

wzcx
11-08-2006, 09:03 AM
are you referring to the EIP/speed element dyno day thread about 5 threads down? 8)

No, I found a related thread on evom, though. I believe it was a thread started by wzcx. Boy, reading it brought back memories.

:lol: Yeah, that was a fiasco. I've emailed EIP about a partial refund, but haven't gotten any reply.

cmydust
11-08-2006, 03:43 PM
You guys are derailing what this thread was intended for...i still want to see results from other ppl's car thats been data logged to see wtf is up with works flash and what they have to say about it. i was seriously thinking about getting their flash but not sooo certain now.

whtrice
11-08-2006, 03:50 PM
I will personally post numbers after I get back from Cleveland . I need to go back to Dbtuned and get a delta for the cam improvement. I will also get the flash logged for knock and report that as well with 91. People want info for this I will provide it. But you wanna sling Shit..I will sling it back. Â*

You guys are derailing what this thread was intended for...i still want to see results from other ppl's car thats been data logged to see wtf is up with works flash and what they have to say about it. i was seriously thinking about getting their flash but not sooo certain now.

UCB
11-08-2006, 04:47 PM
No thanks.....



I will personally post numbers after I get back from Cleveland . I need to go back to Dbtuned and get a delta for the cam improvement. I will also get the flash logged for knock and report that as well with 91. People want info for this I will provide it. But you wanna sling Shit..I will sling it back.

You guys are derailing what this thread was intended for...i still want to see results from other ppl's car thats been data logged to see wtf is up with works flash and what they have to say about it. i was seriously thinking about getting their flash but not sooo certain now.



Why not just go to EIP and dyno it for free as ST has offered



lol..what are you scared of?

ReSin
11-08-2006, 04:49 PM
Even though I have a P1, Andy (Speed Element) is going to datalog my kaa soon. Â*I'll have him post the results...and I'll make sure the 100 is out of the tank.

Â*Dennis

SilverStreak
11-08-2006, 04:53 PM
SS..You spelled it out man..lol..You got your own compression issues..OMG


Wow...you just seem to love jumping in and taking advantage of everything that goes only your way. Â*What the heck does spelling have to do with anything I commented on (which I fixed fwiw)?

Oh wells...just like the Works flash issue...I guess you just ignore that as well and de-rail what you can. Â**shrug*

BTW-I'm sure people can figure out what I meant easier than your quote-a-thon.

Matz
11-08-2006, 05:34 PM
You guys are derailing what this thread was intended for...i still want to see results from other ppl's car thats been data logged to see wtf is up with works flash and what they have to say about it. i was seriously thinking about getting their flash but not sooo certain now.


+1

This discussion is totally stupid. Let's start getting actual data and have a constructive, objective discussion, instead of the constant name-calling and bashing.

Unfortunately, I never logged my car when it had a P2, but here are some dyno plots:

EIP:

http://www.initialdproject.com/evo8/dyno/EIP/EIPDyno012806a_resized.jpg

http://www.initialdproject.com/evo8/dyno/EIP/EIPDyno012806b_resized.jpg

Streetwerke: (their dyno is way "off" compared to our gold standards, EIP and Gruppe-S)

http://www.initialdproject.com/evo8/dyno/StreetWerke/011306-1a.jpg

http://www.initialdproject.com/evo8/dyno/StreetWerke/011306-1b.jpg

Although the numbers clearly don't agree, you might notice a similar trend (i.e. AFR)

JDMgrafiteMR
11-08-2006, 05:54 PM
no scanner but heres a pix of my dyno sheet after i had the p2 installed

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/938/picture078vo9.jpg

...i just got back from eip right now. I told paul what i read on here about the p2 potential to be hazard and asked him if he can take a look. he logged my car for a spin around the block and after looking through the logs on his laptop we saw that the most knocks were at 6500+ with a total of 11 knocks he also said that my injectors are at 110%...i just picked up a fuel pump (that i still need to install) from cal at speed element and most likely picking up a set of injectors too.. Im gonna try and schedule an appointment at works tomorrow to tune the timing

Matz
11-08-2006, 06:05 PM
whoa, 110%? The Helix 720cc injectors are reasonably priced at Gruppe-S, and Paul can get RC Engineering injectors. I personally don't know what's better, though it seems that the RCE's conical spray pattern would be best. I think Paul sells the set for $325 OTD, but don't quote me.

ace33joe
11-08-2006, 06:13 PM
^^ JDMgraphiteMR, What kind of mod do you have?

wzcx
11-08-2006, 06:20 PM
Don't go by my advice only- but I think that the problem might be overboosting and running a bad map more than the injectors. Maybe just change one thing at a time, eh? Try flashing back to stock and seeing what your IDCs are then.

JDMgrafiteMR
11-08-2006, 06:35 PM
^^ JDMgraphiteMR, What kind of mod do you have?

current mods:
works 269/269
apexi intake/apexi induction box
helix upper/lower icp
rnr 24x13x4 fmic
works 76mm dp
works hfc
helix catback




Don't go by my advice only- but I think that the problem might be overboosting and running a bad map more than the injectors. Maybe just change one thing at a time, eh? Try flashing back to stock and seeing what your IDCs are then.
i can almost gauarntee that im not over boosting...if anything i think im running like 12-15 boost...last i check

SpeedElement
11-08-2006, 06:36 PM
we stock plenty of Denso Injectors. let us know if you need a set :)

Cal

Evo442
11-08-2006, 07:12 PM
I know there are many Works tuned Evo around the bay.Â* It would be nice if we can get more data logs to see if more Evo's are endangered by massive knock counts.

Tom


fwiw, I'm tuned by works, have datalogged with evo scan and have almost no knock. (1 or 2 knock counts here or there). Doesn't mean much to this discussion though, since I have a semi-custom flash and run an octane booster.

ST
11-08-2006, 07:16 PM
fwiw, I'm tuned by works, have datalogged with evo scan and have almost no knock. (1 or 2 knock counts here or there). Doesn't mean much to this discussion though, since I have a semi-custom flash and run an octane booster.


im curious why you run octane booster and not straight 91? that stuff can leave nasty orange deposists on your valves and stuff....

Evo442
11-08-2006, 08:02 PM
fwiw, I'm tuned by works, have datalogged with evo scan and have almost no knock. (1 or 2 knock counts here or there). Doesn't mean much to this discussion though, since I have a semi-custom flash and run an octane booster.


im curious why you run octane booster and not straight 91? that stuff can leave nasty orange deposists on your valves and stuff....


yeah, if i were smart, I'd get flashed for 91 octane and be done with it. I'm flashed for 95ish octane; I run 100 octane at the track and torco on the street. Works says I'll lose 20hp by going back to 91octane and I cant bear the thought of that, so I've kept the flash as is.

Matz
11-08-2006, 08:43 PM
Don't go by my advice only- but I think that the problem might be overboosting and running a bad map more than the injectors. Maybe just change one thing at a time, eh? Try flashing back to stock and seeing what your IDCs are then.


I have a similar list of mods to Duy, and on a stock map I was running 99% IDC at 7000RPM. Definitely need injectors.

SouthernCrane
11-08-2006, 09:10 PM
..........since I have a semi-custom flash and run an octane booster.


What....when did you do that? they were supposed to call me when they did custom tuning at the same time :mad:

UCB
11-08-2006, 09:20 PM
fwiw, I'm tuned by works, have datalogged with evo scan and have almost no knock. (1 or 2 knock counts here or there). Doesn't mean much to this discussion though, since I have a semi-custom flash and run an octane booster.


im curious why you run octane booster and not straight 91? that stuff can leave nasty orange deposists on your valves and stuff....


yeah, if i were smart, I'd get flashed for 91 octane and be done with it. I'm flashed for 95ish octane; I run 100 octane at the track and torco on the street. Works says I'll lose 20hp by going back to 91octane and I cant bear the thought of that, so I've kept the flash as is.


why not fill up half way with 100octane on the street

Liquid-R1
11-08-2006, 09:59 PM
Here's my old one. No data log. I won't comment on my lastest dyno run at this time. :D


http://home.comcast.net/~ktsau/Dyno2.jpg

evoboy
11-08-2006, 10:02 PM
I wish I kept a copy of all those dyno graphs from last year's dyno days.

Tom

tirbolag9
11-08-2006, 10:30 PM
well, i did another log tonite. its a lot colder than when i last logged and this time i was driving solo. at the upper 6km knocks were around the 12-15 counts. knock counts seem to be a bit tiny lower...due to only one person being in the car, mixed 76 with shell (1/4 tank before 76) so total 3/4 tank, and the weather is cooler than when i last logged.

bottom line is, still knocks in the high rpm range....

MAB1025
11-08-2006, 10:42 PM
hey tirbolag where are you located? I'd like to log my car and if you aren't too far from SF and are willing to help out let me know!

Evo442
11-08-2006, 11:00 PM
..........since I have a semi-custom flash and run an octane booster.


What....when did you do that?Â* they were supposed to call me when they did custom tuning at the same timeÂ* :mad:


Didn't do a true custom dyno tune at SRM or anything like that... Pete made me a 95'ish octane flash and did some street tuning to make sure it would be safe.

Evo442
11-08-2006, 11:02 PM
fwiw, I'm tuned by works, have datalogged with evo scan and have almost no knock. (1 or 2 knock counts here or there). Doesn't mean much to this discussion though, since I have a semi-custom flash and run an octane booster.


im curious why you run octane booster and not straight 91? that stuff can leave nasty orange deposists on your valves and stuff....


yeah, if i were smart, I'd get flashed for 91 octane and be done with it.Â* Â*I'm flashed for 95ish octane;Â* I run 100 octane at the track and torco on the street.Â* Â*Works says I'll lose 20hp by going back to 91octane and I cant bear the thought of that, so I've kept the flash as is.Â*


why not fill up half way with 100octane on the street


There's only one place in Sac to get 100 octane, and its about 20 miles from my house. Not practical. I get the Torco in 5 gallon jugs, shipped to my house.

lncrevoviii
11-08-2006, 11:47 PM
"3 pod ricer gauges"... ROFL


:lol: :lol: I am sorry, I couldn't hold it, and felt the need to express it publicaly. :lol:

but anyway, back to topic.

MarkSAE
11-08-2006, 11:54 PM
Here's my P2 dyno chart:
263.3whp, 253.8wtq

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k290/marksae/My%20Evo/dyno.jpg

earlyapex1
11-09-2006, 12:06 AM
Logged another 05 Evo with a WORKS P2 flash tonight. The owner would like to remain nameless. ;)

Not as bad as the thread starters log, but still not so fresh. I highlighted the interesting parts. ;)

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/evo_tunes/others/WORKS/works_p2_log_110806.gif

And after a quick 10-15min retune just so the owner could drive his car without fear, wha-la!

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/evo_tunes/others/WORKS/reworks_log_110806.gif

Btw, I had a tactrix cable die on me tonight. It would connect and try to log but the car would bog down like the battery volts would drop but they weren't. It would log but every number was maxed out. Tried my back up cable and worked fine. Yay for back-ups! Now I need to order a new back-up to replace my back-up. ;)

evoboy
11-09-2006, 12:11 AM
Works = tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick :lol:

ace33joe
11-09-2006, 12:34 AM
Sorry for a basic question, but what is the injector pulse period? Because my logger gives me "injector pulse width" in ms, so in order to calculate duty cycle, I need to know the pulse period.

earlyapex1
11-09-2006, 12:36 AM
Sorry for a basic question, but what is the injector pulse period? Because my logger gives me "injector pulse width" in ms, so in order to calculate duty cycle, I need to know the pulse period.


here is a nifty calculator. you just need RPM and IPW:

http://www.stealth316.com/2-calc-idc.htm

ace33joe
11-09-2006, 01:00 AM
Wow, thanks for such a quick reply!

I should have searched before I ask, I actually found the same link posted here. But I appreciate your answer!

Actually, I did some log myself last night, and I got as much as 5 knocks around 5900rpm, and as much as 8 at 7400rpm. I used Evo scan, but an error occurred after some logging, so I used Mitsulogger instead, but this thing misses quite much data. :( So I guess I need more logging with Evo Scan. Also it seems knock numbers are not consistent between 3rd gear pulls. (maybe dependent on actual engine load and boost? highway had some elevation change, so I did get less boost downhill.)

I can't really contribute to this debate, because my map is for stock, and I haven't updated my flash after I got a cat-back and better flow air filter (I doubt it will change things much though).





Sorry for a basic question, but what is the injector pulse period? Because my logger gives me "injector pulse width" in ms, so in order to calculate duty cycle, I need to know the pulse period.


here is a nifty calculator. you just need RPM and IPW:

http://www.stealth316.com/2-calc-idc.htm

JDMgrafiteMR
11-09-2006, 01:18 AM
Logged another 05 Evo with a WORKS P2 flash tonight. The owner would like to remain nameless. ;)

Not as bad as the thread starters log, but still not so fresh. I highlighted the interesting parts. ;)

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/evo_tunes/others/WORKS/works_p2_log_110806.gif

And after a quick 10-15min retune just so the owner could drive his car without fear, wha-la!

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/evo_tunes/others/WORKS/reworks_log_110806.gif

Btw, I had a tactrix cable die on me tonight. It would connect and try to log but the car would bog down like the battery volts would drop but they weren't. It would log but every number was maxed out. Tried my back up cable and worked fine. Yay for back-ups! Now I need to order a new back-up to replace my back-up. ;)


how did you fix it?

earlyapex1
11-09-2006, 01:25 AM
how did you fix it?


Richened it up since it was way too lean and tweaked the timing a bit as well. It's by no means a full tune but it's safer.

I'm beginning to see a pattern with whats wrong with some of these p2's but I would like to see some more samples before I can make a decision.

bricel24
11-09-2006, 02:24 AM
how did you fix it?


Richened it up since it was way too lean and tweaked the timing a bit as well. It's by no means a full tune but it's safer.

I'm beginning to see a pattern with whats wrong with some of these p2's but I would like to see some more samples before I can make a decision.


i'd like to be one of your samples bryan.

seriously, i have a p2... and seeing this thread makes me take a look back to what i've done. hope i can get it logged first for me to see.

Matz
11-09-2006, 05:54 AM
Hey Bryan, I was just thinking about ordering a backup. How about I order two and give you one, since I still haven't bought you lunch. :)

chrisw
11-09-2006, 09:15 AM
I know there are many Works tuned Evo around the bay. It would be nice if we can get more data logs to see if more Evo's are endangered by massive knock counts.

Tom


fwiw, I'm tuned by works, have datalogged with evo scan and have almost no knock. (1 or 2 knock counts here or there). Doesn't mean much to this discussion though, since I have a semi-custom flash and run an octane booster.


I don't think custom flashes are a problem, only the mail-in flash. Mail-in flashes are garbage from what I am seeing here.

It really does not matter who you buy it from.

earlyapex1
11-09-2006, 11:54 AM
Hey Bryan, I was just thinking about ordering a backup. How about I order two and give you one, since I still haven't bought you lunch. :)


Sounds good to me! ;)

MAB1025
11-09-2006, 12:00 PM
Hey Matz while your at it you can get me one as well. :lol:

Matz
11-09-2006, 12:03 PM
Hey Bryan, I was just thinking about ordering a backup. How about I order two and give you one, since I still haven't bought you lunch. :)


Sounds good to me! ;)


Done. Will I still get a fine tune and 100 octane ECU+ config? ;)

earlyapex1
11-09-2006, 12:32 PM
Done. Will I still get a fine tune and 100 octane ECU+ config? ;)


Of course!

warpspeed
11-09-2006, 12:57 PM
If I go to Mitsu. and say I wanted the so called P300 update flash and get it back to original, will the modified boost hose that Works replaced with the P2 be any problem in the meantime before I go Ecutek?

thanks

UCB
11-09-2006, 01:13 PM
why would you even pay for an ecutek license when ecuflash is just as good???

warpspeed
11-09-2006, 01:16 PM
I'm still researching on my next flash. Don't want to get screwed again. :? But back to my post. Will anything happen since Works replaced the "pill" in the boost hose if I go back to stock.....if anybody knows?

UCB
11-09-2006, 01:42 PM
No sure about the pill, i imagine there will be some effects

BUt..you are throwing away your $600 flash to clear a CEL? And who you get your flash from is the decision, I highly suggest against ecutek

ECUflash or wait for the evo cobb accessport. Ecutek is such a waste, you pay $600 for the ability to flash/tune the ecu, and not for the flash/tune itself. For 600 you can get a custom dyno tune via ecuflash

ST
11-09-2006, 01:55 PM
216 sandbagger :p is partially right....mbc/ebc : no...otherwise keep it.

get ecu flash....get the right flash tune and you wont need to touch it.

ApexVIII
11-09-2006, 01:57 PM
he can get it reflashed for 50 after he gets his CEL fixed. i dad the Works on there when i bought my car and it got cleared when they fixed the CEL and works told me i can get it back for 50 and 100 if i want a 2 step. but my question is is it worth the money to get it back for $100 with all the knocks and what not??

warpspeed
11-09-2006, 02:04 PM
Good info/quick reply. I am still waiting for EIP for their VIII tune and might go that way for the price of their tune. Yes/no wait for them or suggest a good local tuner. Didn't mean to go off the topic.

UCB
11-09-2006, 05:15 PM
True that, if you are spending money, it should be on a better map, not to reload one thats known to knock...although the VIII flashes dont seem AS bad as the ones for the IX

earlyapex1
11-13-2006, 03:59 PM
tirbolag9, any update on your situation?

tirbolag9
11-13-2006, 06:33 PM
i went in to *works* today and they were very helpful. so they updated my flash...and i'll do some logs once the weather dries up. as for the high knock count...they suspected the stock exhaust could have been a factor. also, i tried a few calculations of converting ipw to idc and it seems my injectors are working pretty hard. maybe bigger injectors and/or fuel pump to lessen knock? or better 91 gas?

MAB1025
11-13-2006, 06:43 PM
Randy switch to 76 and then log your car again. I think Andy (EFIxMR) posted a thread about trying to tune a car that was using gas from Valero. When you log it again call me so we can log my car as well.

Ben

tirbolag9
11-13-2006, 06:48 PM
wattup ben

i was using shell when i first logged...was the only gas station i had access to or i would have been stranded on the road with no gas :shock:

other logs, i mixed 76 and shell. knock was a little bit lower, but still high. but, yeh, i'll hit ya up when the weather dries up a bit.

ApexVIII
11-13-2006, 07:03 PM
so what have you guys found out from you loggin, what gas knocks less? i thought 76 was the best

DANRR05
11-13-2006, 07:05 PM
i went in today and they were very helpful

sorry,I missed where you went?

tirbolag9
11-13-2006, 07:29 PM
so what have you guys found out from you loggin, what gas knocks less? i thought 76 was the best


you're right 76 seems to be the best. i won't do anymore logs until the weather gives up and i would need to fill up with 76...have chevron currently...couldn't resist the free carwash :)

tirbolag9
11-13-2006, 07:29 PM
i went in today and they were very helpful

sorry,I missed where you went?


haha sorry, went in to WORKS. post was edited.

DANRR05
11-13-2006, 08:49 PM
tirbolag9, Â*I talked to Works briefly about Â*my p2 , they seemed helpful. Â*Is the bottom line you need to datalog the car yourself(buy equipment and know what your doing) or pay someone to do it before to detect the knocks, then after Works adjusts it, pay to have it checked again. Am I missing something, I am getting mad even thinking about it if this is true. Â*

earlyapex1
11-13-2006, 08:50 PM
or pay someone to do it before to detect the knocks, then after Works adjusts it, pay to have it checked again. Am I missing something, I am getting mad even thinking about it if this is true.


I will log any car with a WORKS reflash 100% for free. Ok, maybe for a pint or two. ;)

In fact, if it is knocking bad enough, I will do a quick retune to make sure it's safe to drive. I want my fellow Evo enthusiasts to be able to sleep better at night.

DANRR05
11-13-2006, 08:58 PM
Thats very generousÂ* :D

tirbolag9
11-13-2006, 09:14 PM
stock exhaust causing it to run lean. roflcopter.

Did they not log your car after they reflashed it to make sure it wasn't still knocking?


they didn't log after the reflash...plus it was pouring outside so doing a run probably wouldn't have been safe. man, a dyno would have been handy. but i did give them a copy of my logs so i hope everything checks out okay after the reflash.

tirbolag9
11-13-2006, 09:20 PM
tirbolag9, I talked to Works briefly about my p2 , they seemed helpful. Is the bottom line you need to datalog the car yourself(buy equipment and know what your doing) or pay someone to do it before to detect the knocks, then after Works adjusts it, pay to have it checked again. Am I missing something, I am getting mad even thinking about it if this is true.




i think now its important to have datalogging tools especially when you get flashed. most people on this board will log you car for free or for beer, or for lunch. honestly, i think after getting flashed, all tuners should log their flashes to make sure everything is in working order. didn't happen in my case...as i think that its not part of WORKS flash program. datalogging falls within the custom tuning portion where you have to pay...i think?

Liquid-R1
11-13-2006, 09:31 PM
My car was on 76 when it was logged, and it didn't do too well. :(

MAB1025
11-13-2006, 09:44 PM
tirbolag9, I talked to Works briefly about my p2 , they seemed helpful. Is the bottom line you need to datalog the car yourself(buy equipment and know what your doing) or pay someone to do it before to detect the knocks, then after Works adjusts it, pay to have it checked again. Am I missing something, I am getting mad even thinking about it if this is true.




I think having the data logging software and cable are something that will eventually come in handy as your knowledge about cars grows. I have no idea about tuning and data logging but I recently got the software and will be purchasing the cable soon. To me it's like a tool in my toolbox. You may not know when you will need it but you eventually will.

dizhungryguy
11-13-2006, 09:51 PM
I will log any car with a WORKS reflash 100% for free. Ok, maybe for a pint or two. ;)

In fact, if it is knocking bad enough, I will do a quick retune to make sure it's safe to drive. I want my fellow Evo enthusiasts to be able to sleep better at night.





hey this is cool..earlyapex maybe you can log my car or something? .. =)

SouthernCrane
11-13-2006, 10:11 PM
I will log any car with a WORKS reflash 100% for free. Ok, maybe for a pint or two. ;)

In fact, if it is knocking bad enough, I will do a quick retune to make sure it's safe to drive. I want my fellow Evo enthusiasts to be able to sleep better at night.





hey this is cool..earlyapex maybe you can log my car or something? .. =)


get in line man! :lol:

Bryan is going to be pretty busy :)

dizhungryguy
11-13-2006, 10:15 PM
ohh crap..can we start a list...=)
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6..

MAB1025
11-14-2006, 12:13 AM
In order to help EarlyApex out and when my cable comes in, I can start logging cars as well, although I cannot offer any tuning.

bricel24
11-14-2006, 03:08 AM
or pay someone to do it before to detect the knocks, then after Works adjusts it, pay to have it checked again. Am I missing something, I am getting mad even thinking about it if this is true.


I will log any car with a WORKS reflash 100% for free. Ok, maybe for a pint or two. ;)

In fact, if it is knocking bad enough, I will do a quick retune to make sure it's safe to drive. I want my fellow Evo enthusiasts to be able to sleep better at night.


in line already :D

DANRR05
11-14-2006, 08:36 AM
I have no idea about tuning and data logging but I recently got the software and will be purchasing the cable soon.

Please educate me and other noobies, what software and what cable, and where to get it ?Â* :?

wzcx
11-14-2006, 08:55 AM
In order to help EarlyApex out and when my cable comes in, I can start logging cars as well, although I cannot offer any tuning.

Good idea. I can do this too- I work in Oakland and live in Marin, so north-bayers hit me up.

wzcx
11-14-2006, 08:58 AM
I have no idea about tuning and data logging but I recently got the software and will be purchasing the cable soon.

Please educate me and other noobies, what software and what cable, and where to get it ? :?

http://www.tactrix.com for the cable
http://www.openecu.org for flashing software
http://www.limitless.co.nz/evoscan/ for the logger.

Evo442
11-14-2006, 12:52 PM
In order to help EarlyApex out and when my cable comes in, I can start logging cars as well, although I cannot offer any tuning.


Yeah, for the Sactown folks I can datalog also. Cant tune tho!

-david

dizhungryguy
11-14-2006, 01:01 PM
In order to help EarlyApex out and when my cable comes in, I can start logging cars as well, although I cannot offer any tuning.

maybe you can help me out then..ill wait till you get ur cables since ur not that far from me..

EvOl8
11-15-2006, 11:56 PM
so whats this i hear about the works p2r flash? im sorry i dont really know what the knocking biz is. please inform me.
i got my flash about five or six months ago. it was just flashed w/no logging just test run on streets.

earlyapex1
11-15-2006, 11:58 PM
Glad to hear yours got it fixed....


It's not fixed I can tell you that much.

tirbolag9
11-16-2006, 02:32 PM
dam, trying to post excel logs.....hold on, i'll get this.

but to update: works did reflash my car. from looking at the initial logs, works said that it wasn't pulling timing and that the knocks are actually safe.

after the reflash and logging another run (was sick yesterday but was so bored i snuck out from the pad to do a run...hope the fiance didn't notice :)) the knock sum is a lot lower than the previous log.

as soon as i can figure out how to post tables without the number all jumbled, i'll get up here soon.

NOTE: i'm not trying to call out works here. i'm just posting my modifying journey here :)

UCB
11-16-2006, 02:47 PM
if the knock count is more than 0-2, its NOT ok, especially for a "conservative" tune

tirbolag9
11-16-2006, 02:52 PM
dam....the knock counts are over 5. :shock:

UCB
11-16-2006, 02:53 PM
over 5, means it will start either pulling timing or goining to the low octane map

Is the octange flag always at 100?

man they are really full of shit if you have 5+ knock counts and they send you away saying its ok

tirbolag9
11-16-2006, 02:55 PM
some parts of the log, they were at 100, others were at 99-98.

earlyapex1
11-16-2006, 02:59 PM
but to update: works did reflash my car. from looking at the initial logs, works said that it wasn't pulling timing and that the knocks are actually safe.

I still cannot believe they said this when your logs clearly show pulled timing from excess knock sums.



after the reflash and logging another run (was sick yesterday but was so bored i snuck out from the pad to do a run...hope the fiance didn't notice :)) the knock sum is a lot lower than the previous log.

But it's still at 12 knock sums and pulling timing. In my book, this is not a fix whatsoever.



as soon as i can figure out how to post tables without the number all jumbled, i'll get up here soon.


I can post if you like.

tirbolag9
11-16-2006, 03:08 PM
but to update: works did reflash my car. from looking at the initial logs, works said that it wasn't pulling timing and that the knocks are actually safe.

I still cannot believe they said this when your logs clearly show pulled timing from excess knock sums.



after the reflash and logging another run (was sick yesterday but was so bored i snuck out from the pad to do a run...hope the fiance didn't notice :)) the knock sum is a lot lower than the previous log.

But it's still at 12 knock sums and pulling timing. In my book, this is not a fix whatsoever.



as soon as i can figure out how to post tables without the number all jumbled, i'll get up here soon.


I can post if you like.


oh yea! lemme send it to you via email....i have an edited version...just to protect any proprietary info :)

earlyapex1
11-16-2006, 03:09 PM
Here is #1:

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/evo_tunes/others/WORKS/tirbolagsP2log01notime.gif

earlyapex1
11-16-2006, 03:13 PM
here is #2:

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/evo_tunes/others/WORKS/tirbolagsP2log02notime.gif

tirbolag9
11-16-2006, 03:18 PM
yep those are after the reflash. i'm gonna try to get as much objective opinions on this matter. i spoke to andy a couple of days ago and he's willing to take a look at my logs. this is also a good learning experience for me as i want to learn how to tune and flash.

JanSolo
11-16-2006, 10:31 PM
I like deleting posts and banning people, though in the end, it's really just a waste of my time to do this because it seems like you folks sometimes just don't get it. A lot of you need to learn to simply behave because quite honestly from my vantage point, your parents have not taught you how to interact with others in a constructive and useful manner.

On the soon to be banned list:
ST
UCB
Lurk

I've already banned one member and it felt great.

UCB
11-17-2006, 12:56 AM
Understood man

I guess im just astonished that this poor product is still allowed to be sold, and even after its "fixed", its still trouble some

Then to put icing on the cake, for them to come in and make a thread blaming it on the SW we are using and again flexing their "evo knowledge superiority" muscles, instead of giving solid data and facts to back up their claims that their flashes are indeed "safe"

MAB1025
11-17-2006, 01:14 AM
I have a newbie to evoscan question... What does the timing advance section reference to?

EFIxMR
11-17-2006, 01:50 AM
That refers to the actual timing advance applied to the engine after knock correction. The timing tables in the maps are target timing numbers.

MAB1025
11-17-2006, 02:50 AM
Run #1

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f205/BAACOSTA/one.gif

Run #2

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f205/BAACOSTA/Run2.jpg

I have 2 more runs but I'm tired... So I'll post them up tomorrow and sorry for the size, its the best I could do. :?

tirbolag9
11-17-2006, 03:34 PM
man, those look waaay better than my numbers!

dizhungryguy
11-17-2006, 04:58 PM
MAb log mine in..=)

nj1266
11-17-2006, 05:46 PM
Today we took my friend's 05 Evo to the dyno to see what it was putting with the Works flash. The car had a cat-back, downpipe, stock cat, 264/272 cams, JDM DV, and drop-in filter.

The car put down 262 whp and around 270 tq (I do not remember the exact number) on a DYNOJET. These numbers are very very poor. There were two 8 counts of knock and some 5s, 6s, and 7s, but nothing like what people were getting in this thread.

Then Alfred @ TT got to tune the car. It ended putting down 287 whp and 300 wtq. Much better than before, but the stock cat proved to be a restriction. We will put a test pipe on the car and log and send the logs to TT so he can modify the flash based on these logs. He will send us the Rom and I will flash it in my friend's Evo ECU. Eventually we will head back to the dyno for a final tune. All under the same $400 cost (which includes a fuel pump, and MBC).

modvp
11-17-2006, 06:40 PM
Today we took my friend's 05 Evo to the dyno to see what it was putting with the Works flash. The car had a cat-back, downpipe, stock cat, 264/272 cams, JDM DV, and drop-in filter.

The car put down 262 whp and around 270 tq (I do not remember the exact number) on a DYNOJET. These numbers are very very poor. There were two 8 counts of knock and some 5s, 6s, and 7s, but nothing like what people were getting in this thread.

Then Alfred @ TT got to tune the car. It ended putting down 287 whp and 300 wtq. Much better than before, but the stock cat proved to be a restriction. We will put a test pipe on the car and log and send the logs to TT so he can modify the flash based on these logs. He will send us the Rom and I will flash it in my friend's Evo ECU. Eventually we will head back to the dyno for a final tune. All under the same $400 cost (which includes a fuel pump, and MBC).


Hey NJ, was that the same dyno you put down 300 hp with your tune (and without cams)?

nj1266
11-17-2006, 08:11 PM
Today we took my friend's 05 Evo to the dyno to see what it was putting with the Works flash. The car had a cat-back, downpipe, stock cat, 264/272 cams, JDM DV, and drop-in filter.

The car put down 262 whp and around 270 tq (I do not remember the exact number) on a DYNOJET. These numbers are very very poor. There were two 8 counts of knock and some 5s, 6s, and 7s, but nothing like what people were getting in this thread.

Then Alfred @ TT got to tune the car. It ended putting down 287 whp and 300 wtq. Much better than before, but the stock cat proved to be a restriction. We will put a test pipe on the car and log and send the logs to TT so he can modify the flash based on these logs. He will send us the Rom and I will flash it in my friend's Evo ECU. Eventually we will head back to the dyno for a final tune. All under the same $400 cost (which includes a fuel pump, and MBC).


Hey NJ, was that the same dyno you put down 300 hp with your tune (and without cams)?


Yes, that was on the same dyno. And my car had the same mods as my friend's car except for the cams and the stock cat that he was running.

MAB1025
11-17-2006, 09:35 PM
man, those look waaay better than my numbers!


Those were done last night. I logged it again today ( will post up the results ) after an oil change, back 2 back runs within 2 minutes of eachother and the knock counts were slightly higher than last night. Today I hit 14 counts and yesterday the highest was 8. I'll be out tonight or tomorrow to log more runs and see what happens.



MAb log mine in..=)


I'll pm you my number...

earlyapex1
11-17-2006, 10:47 PM
I posted this in the thread part II but I figured I would post it here as well:

While I was out being a keyboard racer(tm) at Thunderhill today I had some time to reflect on this issue. Yes, driving at the limits of my car let's my mind open a bit more than normal. ;)

I understand DavidV's point of view on bashing. It's actually not very useful because it can get in the way of the real message.

The real reason why myself, and now others are presenting these findings to the community is we believe that fellow enthusiasts should know what they are getting for their money. If they are promised a safe, performing engineered tune, that is what they should get.

If this tune that is touted as safe and performing is actually not really performing all that well, I feel that people should know about it. They can then make up their own mind about what they want to do about it.

My view on WORKS stance on all this is that, although I do realize why they are so defensive, I think they can and should go about solving it in a better way. It's ok to admit faults, much like their brake line snafu, they need to understand this and work upon providing a better product so things like this aren't a possibility.

Hell, the only WORKS employee I have ever met is Kirk, and that was over a year ago. This was as Thunderhill. We got along because we both have the same passion for the same thing, cars. Making them faster, driving them faster and thinking up new cool toys for them. All the WORKS guys could be good people, much like I think Kirk really is.

Letting a problem spotted tune come back into their hands, dismiss it as false, still safe, claim they made improvements on it and send the customer on their way with the same possibly unsafe tune just doesn't lead me to believe that they really care about their end product.

It's one thing to say your product is great and better then every other in your sigs, online, print ads, brochures, etc.. but it's another thing for the product to speak greatness itself.

That all said...
I'm done with the bashing. I realized today its energy sapping, it's counter-productive and it just makes the real message hard to come out from inbetween all the noise.

nj1266
11-17-2006, 11:25 PM
Hell, the only WORKS employee I have ever met is Kirk, and that was over a year ago. This was as Thunderhill. We got along because we both have the same passion for the same thing, cars. Making them faster, driving them faster and thinking up new cool toys for them. All the WORKS guys could be good people, much like I think Kirk really is.

Long before I got my Evo, I had the following experience with two Works employees. I was at the track with my SE-R. For those who do not know, I race my SE-R in door-to-door competition in SCCA and before that with NASA. I was testing on a Sat. The day before there was some sort of an Evo Shootout @ Streets of Willow. Some Evos stayed for the Sat track event. One of them was the Works car.

I was alone and had no help. Track ettiquete dictates that when fellow racers ask for your help you help them. I am the most competitive MFer on the track, but when I am in the hot pits I will help anyone who asks for my help. I have given away clutchs, brake pads, oil, etc...to my competittors. And I know that whenever I ask for help from someone, then they would help me. At my last race event, I forgot to get my brake bleeding bottle. I asked a fellow racer and w/o hesitation he loaned me his.

I was trying to fill my car with gas. I had a jug and a funnel. I did not have the cap with the hose in it. So I saw the two Works guys by their car and went to ask for their help. All I wanted was for one of them to hold the large funnel while I poured the gas. THEY REFUSED TO HELP ME. I was so angry, and I explained to them that this is NOT the way to conduct yourself on the track. That was my first impression of WORKS and from the looks of things it was the RIGHT impression. From then on, I swore that I will never buy any products from that company.

PK@WORKS
11-18-2006, 12:06 AM
I remember that day and I'm sorry that happened. One of our drivers was upset that you blocked him in turn 1 and almost caused him to go off track. I think he thought it was on purpose but maybe you were unaware of it. It was one of those tense moments in the pits we never like to encounter.
We are known for going way out of our way to help everyone. Hopefully we can make it up to you next time.

PK@WORKS
11-18-2006, 10:10 AM
Understood man

I guess im just astonished that this poor product is still allowed to be sold, and even after its "fixed", its still trouble some

Then to put icing on the cake, for them to come in and make a thread blaming it on the SW we are using and again flexing their "evo knowledge superiority" muscles, instead of giving solid data and facts to back up their claims that their flashes are indeed "safe"


We haven't "fixed" any cars yet. The customer you are referring to never let us drive his car after we reflashed it because his girlfriend wanted to leave. He set-up an appointment after Thanksgiving so we can resolve it thoroughly. He has HKS cams and other non-WORKS products which makes this more challenging. But local WORKS customers know we go above and beyond the call of duty to help fellow EVO enthusiasts.

Also, we recently found out some interesting information. Let it be known that two individuals on this thread are directly affiliated with a local competitor.

Although these forums are entertaining, we have a lot of work to do with P2ing the 25 Hour of Thunderhill EVO and planting the seed for the AWDchallenge race series. See you at Infineon Raceway.

earlyapex1
11-18-2006, 02:07 PM
Also, we recently found out some interesting information. Let it be known that two individuals on this thread are directly affiliated with a local competitor.



Let me kick this rumor out as far as I am concerned. I am not affiliated with any local vendor, tuner or political movement.

If you think I am, I would love to hear why you think that, and the proof you have to make that claim.

whtrice
11-18-2006, 02:10 PM
Don't think he was talking about you.



Also, we recently found out some interesting information. Let it be known that two individuals on this thread are directly affiliated with a local competitor.



Let me kick this rumor out as far as I am concerned. I am not affiliated with any local vendor, tuner or political movement.

If you think I am, I would love to hear why you think that, and the proof you have to make that claim.

ST
11-18-2006, 04:08 PM
Also, we recently found out some interesting information. Let it be known that two individuals on this thread are directly affiliated with a local competitor.


Affliated? hehe...sponsored maybe. A customer maybe...but are you insinuating something more? lol

what does that have to do with helping friends / acquaintances out or calling you bs with your marketing gimmicks?

UCB
11-18-2006, 11:04 PM
Just because you are "affiliated" with a competitor, does that not mean you can question the work of others? Does that not keep everyone honest? Last time I checked, most bay area tuners are all connected in some way or another and actively contact each other when in need of help, when things go wrong, etc.

While the definition of competition usually does not allow for such communication, the bay area is a large group of evo enthusiasts/tuners first and for most, shop affiliation and loyalties come second

If one shop is struggling with a certain product, does it not benefit the community as a whole if they are challenged to fix that product?

Despite the bashing, the true intent of these threads is NOT to bring down works, its to CHALLENGE them to step up to the plate and fix what is going on. Not only will this benefit the community, it will also benefit works!

JanSolo
11-19-2006, 03:00 AM
+1

steevo8
02-22-2007, 09:14 PM
........