Evo airflow changes

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

I'm now starting to do the 2byte airflow mod on all the Evo 9's that are tuned on our dyno. Figured it would be a nice data point for all the different levels of modifications.

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/tech/airflow_charts/evo9_stock_fpgreen_tuned_01.gif

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

...

[jbfoco]

good info...

outside the box ftw.

[nightwalker]

COOL! I wonder when you'll start seeing the airflow stop (as far as mods go) This will be great for cam and head tests! Can't wait.

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

Evo 9 with FPgreen and cosworth cams. 91 octane

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/tech/airflow_charts/evo9_fpgreen01.gif

[Matz]

What are the units on the axes?

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

Hz

[Matz]

Hz


? vs Hz?
Hz vs ?

Sorry, I am just curious... I obviously don't understand this stuff.

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

oops, Hz vs rpm. I suck at excel charts. Got any pointers?

[DirectorSe7en]

outside the box ftw.
Yup, in the same tradition as the OEM looking Open Air Intake.

[Matz]

oops, Hz vs rpm. I suck at excel charts. Got any pointers?


hehe... no, sorry. I barely know how to use Excel.

[Ron]

oops, Hz vs rpm. I suck at excel charts. Got any pointers?

Right click the chart area itself, and select 'Chart Options' from the pulldown that appears. On the 'Titles' tab, input your desired labels.

[DirectorSe7en]

lol, you join just to educate him?

That was nice....

[Matz]

Hey Bryan, I know I should search, but can you put a brief blurb in your first post that describes why doing the 2 byte airflow mod is important? Does it give you a better idea of how to tune each car?

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

....

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

Hey Bryan, I know I should search, but can you put a brief blurb in your first post that describes why doing the 2 byte airflow mod is important? Does it give you a better idea of how to tune each car?


The mod itself only allows one to datalog airflow that is not capped at 1600hz which it is if you don't log the 2byte. It doesn't change the operation or performance of the car at all.

The data will tell you if a mod helps to increase airflow, or if that extra 1psi you are trying to squeeze in up top is actually increasing the airflow. You will also see when the turbo starts to max out as the airflow will peak earlier and then drop in Hz in the upper Revs.

[smack]

so in that last chart it looks like you lose a bit of air flow early on but pick up more later on in the rpm range.
is that correct? also is that rpms on the x axis? any way to label it?

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

....

[redvolution]

so the x-axis is time? Could the x-axis be rpm?

Also, why does Hertz indicate more airflow? Is it a linear scale? In other words, is 2kHz twice as much airflow as 1kHz?

[SJCoruja]

so in that last chart it looks like you lose a bit of air flow early on but pick up more later on in the rpm range.
is that correct? also is that rpms on the x axis? any way to label it?



Lower airflow is from the (slightly) longer spool time...the IX turbo spools up a tad quicker so you're seeing more flow there. The other is the normal stock 'hump' from 5k to 5.5k that seemed to be present in most stock Evo tunes. <Matt playing the part of Bryan to the best of his ability>

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

so the x-axis is time? Could the x-axis be rpm?



Yes I think the x-axis should be RPM, it would help the multiple logs sync up better. Do you know how to set that in excel?

[Matz]

so the x-axis is time? Could the x-axis be rpm?



Yes I think the x-axis should be RPM, it would help the multiple logs sync up better. Do you know how to set that in excel?


Normally if you have two columns of data and create an XY scatter (line) chart, it'll do it automatically. I think the first column typically ends up being X, and the 2nd is the Y axis. That's about all the Excel I know, however. :)

[chrisw]

so the x-axis is time? Could the x-axis be rpm?

Also, why does Hertz indicate more airflow? Is it a linear scale? In other words, is 2kHz twice as much airflow as 1kHz?


X-Axis should be the RPM.

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

X-Axis is currently time. That is why I am having a hard time making the Maf HZ sync between cars. espically between a stock car and a rocket like matt's since the time it takes to rip through 3rd gear between the cars is way different.

How can I make the X-axis RPM and have the Y-axis snap to it?

[planglie]

No help here w/either Excel or tuning but I have a question. :P

Is this the reading at the MAF sensor? I am assuming the HZ is referring to the reading the MAF produces based on airflow through the sensor, basically giving the computer info. on fuel enrichment?? More airflow = more fuel = more power??

Sorry, not educated whatsoever on tuning, just trying to understand the charts.

Paul

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

Yup, it is measured at the MAF.

[Ron]

so the x-axis is time? Could the x-axis be rpm?



Yes I think the x-axis should be RPM, it would help the multiple logs sync up better. Do you know how to set that in excel?


Normally if you have two columns of data and create an XY scatter (line) chart, it'll do it automatically. I think the first column typically ends up being X, and the 2nd is the Y axis. That's about all the Excel I know, however. :)

^^what he said. Just change the chart type to X-Y scatter, and make sure the column of RPM data is the furthest to the left of all the columns you select for the plot. The remaining columns of data will be plotted against that column in an X-Y format.

There are other ways to do it too but this is the easiest way to explain.

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

^^what he said. Just change the chart type to X-Y scatter, and make sure the column of RPM data is the furthest to the left of all the columns you select for the plot. The remaining columns of data will be plotted against that column in an X-Y format.

There are other ways to do it too but this is the easiest way to explain.


How about for multiple logs with multiple RPM?

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

Nevermind I think I fingered it out.... :)

EDIT. Nevermind. I still can't get it right.

It's ok with two logs of cars that have close to equal power, but once I try to overlay a stock evo 9 MAF hz over a rocket like Matt's 9 it's all jacked up. The stock 9 has almost twice the data points since it takes so much longer to get through 3rd.

:(

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

alright, I finally figured this damn thing out. Unfortunatly it's a major pita.

anyway, updated on first post....

[whtrice]

Very nice graph showing the comparisons....

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

Evo 9

100% stock

All 3 plots are from the same Evo 9 on the same day

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/tech/airflow_charts/Evo9_stock_3stages_01.gif

[whtrice]

Question Bryan...The "green" line in the above graph representing the tuned line. Would this have been AFR,timing and MIVEC changes only or would boost settings have been adjusted too?

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

Question Bryan...The "green" line in the above graph representing the tuned line. Would this have been AFR,timing and MIVEC changes only or would boost settings have been adjust too?


All of the above, however boost doesn't change much without taking out the BCS pill or changing the turbo side pill as the stock boost control tables are at 100% WGDC.

[whtrice]

Was trying to determine if just MIVEC changes produced any flow gains in various parts of the curve.
Specifically the 2500 to 3500 range. The slope of the lines vary do to MIVEC changes and the better / quicker response of the BCS then?

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

Was trying to determine if just MIVEC changes produced any flow gains in various parts of the curve.
Specifically the 2500 to 3500 range. The slope of the lines vary do to MIVEC changes and the better / quicker response of the BCS then?


The irregularites more have to do with airflow changes. Stock the boost can be quite erractic. You can see that in the blue plot above. With a proper tune, it smooths out (green plot). Taking the BCS pill out raises the boost but can make the boost a little erractic again.

Wish I could log boost in evoscan on every evo too as we could plot that along with airflow.

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

Some Airflow and Load:

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/tech/airflow_charts/Evo9_stock_vs_FPgreen_load2.gif

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/tech/airflow_charts/Evo9_TBE_vs_FPgreen_load2.gif

[Matz]

Evo 9

100% stock

All 3 plots are from the same Evo 9 on the same day

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/tech/airflow_charts/Evo9_stock_3stages_01.gif


THANK YOU!!! :) that plot rocks.

[Matz]

Wish I could log boost in evoscan on every evo too as we could plot that along with airflow.


Can evoscan read auxiliary serial data, i.e. something not coming over OBD2?

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

Probably but would probably easier to just export the dyno run file as txt and extract the boost log from there. :)

[Matz]

Probably but would probably easier to just export the dyno run file as txt and extract the boost log from there. :)


haha... true. So if you had a script to take the two files (dyno + evoscan) and give you the proper output, you'd be as happy as a clam?

[UCB]

Have you tried changing boost levels up top and seeing if running more boost (say 21psi) actually yields more or less flow compared to say 19psi?

Perhaps emperical data to support the boost vs afr vs timing debate

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

Have you tried changing boost levels up top and seeing if running more boost (say 21psi) actually yields more or less flow compared to say 19psi?

Perhaps emperical data to support the boost vs afr vs timing debate


One of the big reasons I started doing this. ;)

Just need to find the time to get some good data. :)

[crctslt]

Evo 9

100% stock

All 3 plots are from the same Evo 9 on the same day

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/tech/airflow_charts/evo9_stock_fpgreen_tuned_01.gif


What boost level is the Green at in this plot? What WHP? I find it interesting as the plot shows it just touching 2000HZ. On my GST at 24 PSI I am in the 2400 HZ range on my 2g MAF. Some of the DSM guys are using Evo (or 3g MAFs) on there cars and since i am quickly approaching break up it's time to upgrade. I am wondering if the scaling is 1:1.

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

That is Matt's Evo 9 @ 353whp, 91 oct, 20.5psi at 7200rpm

Will get 100 octane FPgreen Hz soon with 24psi+ :)

[SJCoruja]

Will get 100 octane FPgreen Hz soon with 24psi+ :)


Now that's what I'm talkin' bout! :thumbsup:

[turbotiger]

I'm glad to see you're finally using 2 byte air flow. :D
And you need to tell me what you do in excel to get the rpm on the x axis and sync between multiple files! I suck at excel!

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

Evo 9 with FPgreen, cossie cams, 353whp, 91 oct, 20.5psi at 7200rpm

Evo 9 with stock turbo, stock cams, 327whp, 91 oct, 21.5psi at 7200rpm

Evo 9 with stock turbo, stock cams, 307whp, 91 oct, 20psi at 7200rpm (Stock Turbo 2)

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/tech/airflow_charts/airflow_122205_stock_fpgrn.gif

[crctslt]

Nice.

[JDMevoBOOST]

what other mods does the 327whp stock turbo car have?

[DoggDicker]

That is a very kewl graph...and interesting too...

DD

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

what other mods does the 327whp stock turbo car have?


http://www.norcalevo.net/forum/index.php/topic,20262.msg402202.html#msg402202

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

Interesting one.

Everyone knows how rich a stock evo gets up top. One of the reasons for this is a huge jump in Injector Duty Cycle at 7000 rpm.

This graph pretty much shows it all. First overlay is a stock Evo 9 with the factory tune, second overlay is the same stock Evo 9, but now with our GST-PLUS-1 map, which is a base map. You can see how the Injector Duty Cycle is cleaned up and lowered. Also spools much quicker and a little pick-up of peak load.

This evo gained approx 25wtq in the spool and peak torque area and approx 15whp at 7100rpm over the factory tune, with the same boost levels.

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/tech/airflow_charts/Arflw_idc_stockVsBase_122207.gif

[whtrice]

Awesome representation.....^^^

[DoggDicker]

Bryan...you are only going this for the IX's...does the VIII have this ability, or do you have to swap out some parts...sorry, I'm a n00b on this topic...

DD

[turbotiger]

Yes, you can do it on 8's as well, but each ecu is going to be different.

[DoggDicker]

Yes, you can do it on 8's as well, but each ecu is going to be different.


Kewl...thanks...I'm curious how much mine flows...

DD

[player67]

Thats some good info Bryan

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

Evo 9 with FPgreen, cossie cams, 353whp, 91 oct, 20.5psi at 7200rpm

Evo 9 with stock turbo, stock cams, 307whp, 91 oct, 20psi at 7200rpm

Evo 9 with stock turbo, cossie cams, 351whp, 100 oct, 23psi at 7200rpm

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/tech/airflow_charts/Airflow_100oct_9_stckTrboFP.gif

By itself: Evo 9 with stock turbo, cossie cams, 351whp / 362wtq, 100 oct, 28psi at 4000rpm - 23psi at 7200rpm

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/tech/airflow_charts/Airflow_100oct_9_stockTurbo.gif

Evo 9 with stock turbo, cossie cams, 351whp / 362wtq, 100 oct, 28psi at 400rpm - 23psi at 7200rpm

vs:

Evo 9 with stock turbo, stock cams, 307whp / 286wtq, 91 oct, 23psi at 3750 - 20psi at 7200rpm

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/tech/airflow_charts/Airflow_100o_9_stckTrbo2.gif

[DirectorSe7en]

:shock: Wow, time to start buying 100 octane.

If I did like half 100oct and half 91 in a tank, is that changing anything?

[whtrice]

Dang Bryan...I love these graphs. They speak volumes. Great for comparitive analysis. The efficiency
between the FP green turbo and stock turbo are displayed well. Airflow benefits of cams as well. I don't know if you have any data yet but some camparo's between a HFC car ( ceramic or 100 cell) and a TP equipped car. Course I guess to be accurate it would have to be the same car. It has always been a question in my mind the loss if any between a good 100 cell HFC and a TP in a 3 inch exhaust.

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

New round:

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/tech/airflow_charts/evo9-780VSstockINJ_123007.gif

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/tech/airflow_charts/evo9-100Vs91_123007.gif

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/tech/airflow_charts/evo9-FPG_noCams_123007.gif

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/tech/airflow_charts/evo9-tbeCamsPlus_123007.gif

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/tech/airflow_charts/evo9-tbeHFC_123007.gif

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

Here is an interesting one:

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/tech/airflow_charts/airflow_FPG_91_cams_123107.gif

Notice how the highest horsepower run has lower higher RPM load and airflow. Also interesting is how much load the Cams add in the midrange. Open air filter added to #3 added 16whp and 8wtq but had less airflow and load than #2 with stock intake.

All 3 are the same Evo 9. #2 and #3 where within 20 minutes of each other, #1 was 2 days before.

[turbotiger]

Interesting, wonder if the cone filters cause more air to flow around the metered section of the opening, causing a lower metered reading.

[UCB]

hmm, my only guess is the air is colder/denser, resulting in more power with less actual flow. Flow alone is a bit decieving since the air temp/density plays a big role in power production.

Did you log IATs on these?

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

hmm, my only guess is the air is colder/denser, resulting in more power with less actual flow. Flow alone is a bit decieving since the air temp/density plays a big role in power production.

Did you log IATs on these?


Sounds like you might be on to something. I would imagine a open filter could bring in more cool and dense air then the stock box. I'll look up the logs when I get back from Tahoe. :)

The one interesting thing I did do on the dyno with this car is that I took the top off the stock box and took the drop-in filter out, so basically open MAF and did a run. This took all of 1 min between the run before so the room temp could not really have changed much. I did this to see if the stock intake box was indeed becoming a larger restriction with the cams and FPgreen. It gained something like 20whp and 25wtq, some of that was because of it leaning out .5 up top.

Then we put the open filter on and I tuned back in the AFR nice and safe and ended up with run #3 on the above graph.

I guess more, cooler air does indeed work well. :) Would be nice to be able to run around with a open MAF, 340wtq on 91 would have been nice. ;)

[UCB]

open element+cooling ducts 8)

PS-Jealous of being in tahoe, the snow must be amazing :(

[Ron]

hmm, my only guess is the air is colder/denser, resulting in more power with less actual flow. Flow alone is a bit decieving since the air temp/density plays a big role in power production.

Did you log IATs on these?

Denser air would normally be picked up by the MAF as higher flow, though.

And if the airflow rate itself was unchanged other than being cooler, the only way it would make more power is if it allowed more aggressive timing.

I think what we're seeing here is a skewed MAF readings due to the open element air filter affecting it.

[UCB]

Yes they do measure air density to an extent, but I'm not convinced its completely accurate. There are a lot of variables that go into how the hot-wire is cooled to measure total mass flow

The more power with less load is odd though, perhaps we are seeing an inflection point in terms of the turbos efficiency

[Ron]

Yes they do measure air density to an extent, but I'm not convinced its completely accurate. There are a lot of variables that go into how the hot-wire is cooled to measure total mass flow

The more power with less load is odd though, perhaps we are seeing an inflection point in terms of the turbos efficiency

The Evo MAF isn't a hotwire, it's a Karman-vortex. The MAF is just getting jacked-up by the air filter.

The filter is helping with hp, but it's affecting how the MAF is reading.

[UCB]

Ahh yes, and those are even worse at factoring in air desity, likely the reason the evo has a IAT as well. If the readings for air flow are really just flow, then yeah, you wont see total air mass without using good oll PV=nRT with the IAT readings

[earlyapex aka jack ass]

http://www.norcalmotorsports.org/users/bryan/mods/EVO/tech/airflow_charts/gt35r_vs_stock9turbo.gif

Orange plots are:

Evo 8 with 2.3L, cosworth head and a GT35R at 26psi

Blue plots are:

Evo 9 with stock 9 turbo @ 28psi

Evo 9 max airflow is 19XX, Evo 8 max airflow is 25XX

:shock: :shock: :shock: