What was the result of that P2 vs. Xflash race?

[rodw]

What was the result of the nebolic and Gilbert's flash race?

we will end all arguments this saturday, Gilbert has a p2flash with works axle back (works prepped), I have a vishnu xlfash and 3 inch catback. We are going to "test" to see which one pulls, and we will post the results on ASAP, btw this will be just a rough estimate on which flash has the bigger balls hahaha, j/k about the bigger balls part but we are going to see which flash pulls hard...

[BluEvo]

What was the result of the nebolic and Gilbert's flash race?

we will end all arguments this saturday, Gilbert has a p2flash with works axle back (works prepped), I have a vishnu xlfash and 3 inch catback. We are going to "test" to see which one pulls, and we will post the results on ASAP, btw this will be just a rough estimate on which flash has the bigger balls hahaha, j/k about the bigger balls part but we are going to see which flash pulls hard...

i'm really interested to see those results......

[nebolic]

if you'd like to know, we will PM each individual because we believe posting on the board might start flame wars, results are in, but we will tell via PM.

thanks guys.
Nebo

[JanSolo]

I don't believe anyone here has any opposition to talking about the results of the race in public for all to see.

The only people who would oppose the results of this race would be the vendor who's flash lost the race.

[jomama]

nebolic - i would like to know. please pm results.

[nebolic]

well we sort settled the score tonight to see which one is faster:

xflash + catback vs P2 + axle back

result:

every gear i shifted I jumped ahead but going through the gears the p2's holding 19psi caught up and went a little ahead of me about 1/8 of a car, but after shifting i jump... so I'd say its pretty even though the inital jump through the shifts scared people because of the jump.

conclusion: P2 will be faster in an endurance match.

also got to note, my friend was shifting at around 7500 rpm, me I was shifting at a little under 7000rpm.


all in all, i would say they are pretty even, given in the cost factor and everything, i am very happy with my xflash.

hope this does not offend anyone.

[vtluu]

Thanks nebolic, those are some interesting results. It remains to be said that:
- The two cars had different drivers with different driving styles.
- Depending on your particular application (road/drag/autox/rally) one flash may be more appropriate than the other.
- It was pretty darned close anyway.

I think it's safe to say that either flash will make your car a good bit faster--but the rest is up to the driver and his/her skills. :D

[nebolic]

i agree, mainly because we are talking about baseline maps in both instances therefore, i would presume there shouldn't be any or much differences .... that is my thinking, i'm sure though down the line when you are pretty hard cored tuned, those reflashes will differ a lot, but as for baseline mapping, they are both very similiar.

P.S the hop my car does when i shift in WOT mode is pretty cool, almost lurches and "jumps"

[rodw]

No 3rd gear roll to redline comparsion to eliminate driver skill????

[BluEvo]

this is my take. both will do the job (give more stealthy power). just depends on the money you've got to blow on it. basically breaks down to street or track kinda preference as Tam mentioned. and also, the factor of, how many more mods u plan to do. hey nebolic/rodw, thanks for sharing the info.

[ytsejam]

you guys are NUTS! he he he....

Vishnu & WORKS, please try not to reply to this thread because this is our own experience, i don't really care if P2 kicks xflash's ass by 10 cars or vice versa in other cases. we're talking about our experience in this thread.

anyways,
we decided not to talk about this in public boards, only to certain individuals that we've known quite abit...we don't want to start a war, especially if both vendors are in this boards. in addition, we're pretty good friends: me, nebolic & thomas, so we want to keep it that way.

anyways, this is the story:
after nebolic got his xflash, he took me for a ride and yes, i saw his boost peaked @23 goddamn PSI. and since we didn't took it to the limit, when i got home that night, i started to browse EvoM to see if ppl had posted a boost graph of xflash.

well i found one and i printed it out. then i started to mark the boost points at certain rpms and found out that after 4800rpm(around 19psi), xflash starts to bleed boost and tapering off to 16psi. so, based on this, all i could imagine was, if we start off even, xflash would get the jump, but after 4800rpm, P2 would still be hauling ass (19psi) to around 7500rpm.

with this thought in mind, we decided to test the reflashes...thomas, me and nebolic, we did around 15mph rolling start to avoid driver skill issues (yes, i am pretty bad in launching ;)).

all i remember is i was in the front (at the end of 3rd gear)and thomas 1/2 car behind me (he only have P2, pretty strong evo out of the box) and i think...i think nebolic was neck to neck with thomas....i am not sure, gotta let thomas chime in on this cuz i was busy looking at my tach ;)

i shifted @7500rpm, i did hear nebolic shifting a lil bit early, as expected, because at this rpm, xflash would only be boosting 16psi.

now, talking about cost, you're comparing $400 to $700, so yeah, if cost is an issue, xflash is a really good deal.

again, this is just our experience. YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY...LOL...

EDIT:
my aftermath thought: xflash seems to be suitable for autox where you need that corner exit speed. however for 1/4 mile, i am leaning towards P2, you need that top end power.

[nebolic]

Rodw we tried the roll, however the problem with that was i am not hitting 23psi, so its not a very good comparison, even when we did start from a roll it was pretty even. like Tam and BluEvo said, both flashes are pretty even, really depends on how much you want to spend and where you want the power band.

[ytsejam]

nebolic is right, i was not hitting peak boost too since it was low gears, i was probably hitting 17.5-18psi @2nd gear. to my understanding, you need load to boost high and it's hard to accomplish this in low gears.

[ytsejam]

damn ROD, why do you have to mention my name...LOL

[BluEvo]

all in all, let's just go kill some Sti's...lolz (please do not take any offense, as we are just horse'n around.) :lol:

[ytsejam]

nebolic did ;)
he he he

[nebolic]

all in all, let's just go kill some Sti's...lolz (please do not take any offense, as we are just horse'n around.) :lol:

did one of those already right after I got my xflash hahhaha :twisted:

[rodw]

Good comparison... :D

[thomas]

enuff' said :wink:

bottom line: different flash for different application...

[evo_dadi]

thx for the comparison guys now time to save up some moolah for the flash:)

[Shiv@Vishnu]

also got to note, my friend was shifting at around 7500 rpm, me I was shifting at a little under 7000rpm.

Shift later :) Need to go up to at least an indicated 7400-7500 for best accel on a Stg. 0 car. If you short shift, you're giving yourself a gearing (torque multiplying) disadvantage.

I say "indicated" because the EVO's tachometer is optimistic by 100-200rpm up top. This is typical of most cars.

Cheers,
shiv

[nebolic]

word, thanks for the advice shiv, i was just scared of fuel cut cuz the tach redlines insanely fast in the first 3 gears, didnt want to "hit the wall". Will work on my shifting techniques and watch where I shift.

[JanSolo]

And on the Works P2, just shift around 7800 or so since the rev limiter has been moved up to 7850 or so. See if that makes a difference for you.

[DavidV]

Since Shiv posted, I'll throw in my $0.02

This test was flawed for a number of reasons, most significantly, that we don't know the baselines of the cars before they went at it in tuned form.

Nonetheless, the most reliable aspect of any of this is when driver skill/error was eliminated. This was only accomplished when the cars were run in a single gear without shifting.

The P2 car (with only P2) led the other two cars in every acceleration test. The other P2 car with Exhale AB still led the Xflash car in gear despite the fact that the Xflash car was also equipped with a catback exhaust. So, even with a handicap, the P2 car nosed out the other (and to be fair, the P2 car should have had both the Exhale AB and Exhale IP installed for this).

As Jan and Shiv both pointed out, if you're going to bother shifting the cars, you need to shift both at their respective rev limits. Since that was not done, all that matters is single gear power for this test.

Lastly, I'm not buying that either the P2 or Xflash car was handicapped by not being able to hit peak boost. Both cars should have easily hit peak boost at full throttle in 2nd gear rips unless there was something mechanically wrong with them.

-- DavidV :D

[JanSolo]

Hey Dave! You need to change your handle since you're no longer with Works. ;) Good to see you're alive and kicking and thanks for your two pence on the matter.

Basically, what we have deduced so far is that even though the peak hp numbers of the P2 are theoretically lower, the curve itself has so far given the P2 the advantage when doing drag racing.

[vtluu]

As David and others have pointed out, there are so many "uncontrolled" variables in this little test; enough, I would claim, that one could argue the results either way. The two different flash products have different characteristics, and I consider that a good thing--ice cream is good, ice cream in (albeit less than 31 :D) different flavours is even better.

Where things really count of course is performance at the track, on the drag strip, or at the autocross course. It's impossible to design a single ECU program/map that is best for all those situations, as they have differing requirements. It's entirely possible--likely even--that each product is more suited to a particular event type than the other. One could also argue legitimately that the two products are close enough to one another in performance that, all other things being equal, competitive results are largely a matter of driver skill.

As for daily driving, a little more "oomph" is definitely nice, and both products will definitely give you that. However the number of times you'll find yourself on the street, running side-by-side another Evo with both of you holding the same gear is rather (rather!) small, so I would argue that this comparison is irrelevant for the purposes of comparing drivability.

I don't want this thread to become a shouting contest between Vishnu and Works (that's what evolutionm.net is for :lol:)... I think others will share my sentiment when I say that I'm simply thrilled that we have both of these shops local to us, and that they both contribute to this site with their comments and insight. 8)

[DavidV]

Hey Dave! You need to change your handle since you're no longer with Works. ;) Good to see you're alive and kicking and thanks for your two pence on the matter.

Basically, what we have deduced so far is that even though the peak hp numbers of the P2 are theoretically lower, the curve itself has so far given the P2 the advantage when doing drag racing.

Hey Jan, I'm still lurking around from time to time. I had actually planned on a surprise visit with you guys on the 8th, but was so tired after L.A. and so behind on my book, that I ended up having to miss it. Sounds like everyone had a good time though, and I'll try to make in on the 28th.

Also, I'll be heading up to THill with Bill Davis and the ZClub on March 8th in case you or anyone is interested in getting an instructor for the day.

If you or any of the mods would like to change my screen name to just DavidV, that would be fine. Since I am no longer with WORKS other than on a friendly basis and to get my cars worked on, it might be misleading for people to see that affiliation.

Truth be told, it really should be Pete reading through all this and posting and not me.

-- DavidV :D

[nebolic]

like i stated before, the baseline maps of both tuners are similiar in the sense for people with no mechnical knowledge or tuning experience. from a laymans perspective they both do about the same job in just different ways.

[JanSolo]

I don't think we will change your name on the board since to us, you are the voice of WORKS - well, unless you really want it.

You definitely missed a good time at Thunderhill. But we will be having a run down at Buttonwillow, so you might want to attend that with your MR2. Time and dates to be announced in the future.

Pete is a bit tough to get ahold of. And I don't know if he is a clever marketing guy like yourself. And truth be told, we wanted to keep the invidual tuners out of this one.

[BluEvo]

As long as you are not getting negative #'s and results from your refalshes, you're good to go either way.....now let's go use the power on someone else and not each other....lolz :lol:

[ytsejam]

you got it backwards, david...

assuming that you were talking about our cars.
my car led on all 3 runs, and mine has the AB.

he he he....(just trying to make the other P2 ONLY car to get the AB) ;)



....
The P2 car (with only P2) led the other two cars in every acceleration test. The other P2 car with Exhale AB still led the Xflash car in gear despite the fact that the Xflash car was also equipped with a catback exhaust. So, even with a handicap, the P2 car nosed out the other (and to be fair, the P2 car should have had both the Exhale AB and Exhale IP installed for this).
....

[thomas]

thx tuners for the insight, but we knew before going into this comparo that there were way too many factors that could affect it and make this test an accurate one. mainly, it was for fun and to give us some feedback regarding our flashes. exactly what david@works said, we didnt do baseline dynos so we couldnt tell you who has the stronger "evo out of the box," and our mods on our cars completely differ. all i kno was that i had a great time that nite. it was pretty cool seeing three evos fly down a stretch of road (location disclosed)...haha. me, personally, i dont really care who has the faster evo out there, im totally content with my 2! mods and maybe down the line ill have something more to put in it...its juss cool that im able to cruise around town with a posse of evos!!!

and yes i was shifting at/around 7500-7800 rpms. no fuel cut...?


As long as you are not getting negative #'s and results from your refalshes, you're good to go either way.....now let's go use the power on someone else and not each other....lolz :lol:

haha, needed to get that race out of our systems...now we can go beat on other cars!



assuming that you were talking about our cars.
my car led on all 3 runs, and mine has the AB.

he he he....(just trying to make the other P2 ONLY car to get the AB)

oh yea, thats true!!! but you wanna try again from a dead stop...haha, didnt think so! :D
hmmm, you want me to get the exhale ab? why, then for sure id whoop your a$$, haha, j/k foo!o :wink: juss think, rite now you can still beat me...

[Shiv@Vishnu]

Variables shmariables. Just shift later nebolic :) You're giving up some serious accel when you short shift the EVO. This is why you were loosing ground towards the end of the gear. You were in 3rd but the other car was still in 2nd. No need to fear the fuel cut-- it's there for a reason.

[rodw]

I'm guessing the results will be the same even if the xflash car shifts at redline based on the 3rd roll to redline test...

[nebolic]

note to self: floor it to the last possible millisecond. ;-)

[BluEvo]

note to self: floor it to the last possible millisecond. ;-)
caution note: just don't miss-shift, it could be disasterous! lolz :lol:

[nebolic]

:shock: what you mean the grinding noise from my tranny when i power shift is not normal :lol: heehhehehe

[Shiv@Vishnu]

note to self: floor it to the last possible millisecond. ;-)

Just rev it to an indicated 7400-7500rpm and that's it. That's still far away from the rev limit. If you want, I'll drive it for ya :P

shiv

[ytsejam]

damn shiv read my mind.
i almost replied with the idea of shiv driving the car...LOL...

[JanSolo]

They're watching us... (http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67038)

[ytsejam]

WHO?

[JanSolo]

Click the link..

[ytsejam]

http://www.ulala.karoo.net/word.jpg

[nebolic]

okie this topic has been beaten to death. in any case, i wrote a post regarding this on EvoM but my post got deleted, for whatever reason i dont know. Anyhow the below posts is the jist of what i wrote on EvoM.

No matter what anyone says, this tuner does this and this tuner does that, from a Business standpoint they have to realize that the big majority of the Evo owners are not tuners themselves, rather we are just the average joe that does not understand tuning too much. (good be a gross generalization). In any case, if you're a tuner and you're promoting your tune by saying this a/f ratio we use and this timing we do is great etc...
honestly we dont have a clue on how that actually affects the car.

Bottom line is we want real world performance.

As a consumer all I care about is.
1. How Fast it is after the tune.
2. How reliable is it
3. How much it cost (this ones the biggie)
4. Brand name/Proven work that has been done.

All other things are basically irrelevant, to the average joe.

Think about it, the flashes being offered varied from $200 to $600, being the average consumer, you drive all three flashes, granted they do feel a little different however, bottom line is, if this tune is faster than that one, which one would you buy?

or given the fact that all three tunes are just as fast as each other. how can you justify spending $600 vs $200 to get the job done. Yes I know this issue has been brought up saying that the $600 is worth it because of all the R&D given into the tune and the tuners need to make their money back.

Here's rebuttal point to that philosphy. When the first microwave ovens came out in the U.S, it costs the U.S a fortune in R&D costs to produce those ovens, however with Reverse Engineering, other countries could produce the same Microwave oven for less cost with way less R&D money. So are you trying to say japanese microwave ovens are far inferior due to the low cost? Nope, personally I don't think so.

Its great that a tuner has taken a plunge into R&D costs, but honestly, consumers do not care about how much you've spent into R&D, all we care about is the end product, whether if it works and whether if we like it or not.

COST is a huge factor in determining which flashes people purchase.

Here's another one from an Economic standpoint.

All 3 flashes are substituion products. Which means, all 3 flashes are interchangable (we'll keep it simple) in laymans terms, this is what it boils down to.

If the price of one product goes up, the quantity of that product being purchased will go down as consumers find viable alternatives, which in turn will increase the sales of the other (flashes) due to the fact that they are cheaper and subsitutable, thus PRICE is always a determining factor.

Now, easy analogy is this.
I am going to buy a sweater.
Shall I purchase it from Armani, Banana Republic, or express?

All three function in the same way, they keep you warm but how much are you willing to spend???

I think Works has a great flash, but the point in contention in your business model is that your product is priced too high, so high that there is a very small amount of "Consumer Surplus", basically that means if you go in a store having a set mind of spending $200 to buy a sweater, however you walk away with it for $150, the consumer surplus is $50, cuz you saved $50.

Just my perspective on things, R&D is good, but on the business side, it just won't cut to spend so much for a flash.

Please flame away as I know this post will piss a lot of people off.

Nebolic

[DavidV]

Very insightful post. No flames from me.

I think you are right in a lot of respects. The only note I would add to what you have posted is that whether someone chooses the $200 solution, the $500 solution or the $600 solution, as long as they made an informed choice, the consumer will have gotten what they paid for.

However, if someone tells you "why spend $600 when I can give you the same thing for $199" and you later find out that they are not the same, wouldn't you at least want to know what it was you were spending your hard-earned money on?

For example, using your sweater analogy, what if the Armani sweater was made of cashmere and you bought the less expensive brand under the assumption that it looked just like the Armani but was a better value. Then you took it home and saw it was really a cotton/rayon weave. Would you still feel like you got a good value? The answer is "yes," so long as you knew at the time of purchase what it was that you were buying. The answer is "no" if the salesman who sold it to you sold it on the premise that it was exactly the same, when in fact it wasn't.

Now, I'm not making a value or quality assessment about these products (at least not directly so) because, frankly, I'm not a consumer in the market for an Evo flash. But if I was a consumer, I would want to be an informed consumer and understand how it is that these products are different. I may still pick the Kia over the BMW, or the Sanyo microwave over the GE, but I should at least have a sense of what I'm buying before I choose what price point fits my needs.

There will always be a market for $199 flashes just as there will always be a market for $600 flashes. If you understand how each works, and know what sets them apart, I can't say not to buy the $199 product or the $500 product and pocket the difference.


On the other hand, I don't think WORKS, the only company with any incentive to justify their higher price, has done enough to show the buying public what that extra money they were spending was getting them. Sure, some of it was the fact that it took WORKS more capital to develop the technology and this is reflected in the price of the product, but another big part of it that has, until now anyway, gone silently unacknowledged is that the products function and behave very differently. Now whether that difference is worth it to the end-consumer is an entirely personal decision, but for the public not to know that true differences exists and why they might want to take those differences into consideration, is another matter entirely.

I'm sincerely glad that you posted and I am equally glad that you found a product/solution that is right for you. I just hope that others spend as much time thinking about what it is that they are buying as you obviously have.

-- DavidV :D

[nebolic]

Nice response David,

I sold my soul to the devil and purchased the other flash rather than getting the works P2 flash, which I orignally had planned.

the pricing had obviously made an impact for me. I would however suggest that if Works have recovered their R&D cost, to lower their P2 cost (hopefully to ~$500 region), I can almost guarantee sales for P2 flash will increase dramitcally. Had the P2 flash been priced at that region when I purchased my flash, I would've taken the plunge.

Davidv, thanks for the intellectual discussion, this board is more liberal than EvoM cuz i made the same (almost) post there and it got deleted. At least here we are actually (discussing!) which is what the boards are for.

Cool beans.
Nebolic

[DavidV]

p.s. I can't believe they deleted that at EvoM

-- DavidV :D

[BUDLoNG]

so does this mean that when works recoups on the money they put into R&D, they will lower the cost of the flash?
BUDLoNG

[rodw]

I doubt it

[DavidV]

so does this mean that when works recoups on the money they put into R&D, they will lower the cost of the flash?
BUDLoNG

The R&D continues. Rather than drop the price, they continue to work on new features and new ways of adding value to the Brain Flash. This helps ensure that the product always remains cutting edge. After all, if they had stopped R&D with the P1, there would never have been a P2.

-- DavidV :D

[nebolic]

well for most of you who are wondering, the biggest chunk of capital when it comes to technology is the initial R&D. When it comes to production, the marginal cost of producing that 1 extra unit is very miniscule. I.E take microsoft for example. How much do you think it costs them to R&D windows xp. probably a ton of money. However think about how much it costs them to burn one copy of the software and sell it...

get the drift, its minimal, thus everytime they sell that product, the profit generated from each additonal sale increase, cuz your basically spreading out the R&D cost over the quantity of your products.

In any case, Works indeed produce a quality product no doubt about that.

Us consumers are always greedy heh, we always want to pay the least amount of money for anything.

we are a hard bunch to please.

[evo_dadi]

well spoken guys that is why i decided on going with works even though i originally was planning on getting the xflash.