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View Full Version : Power issues solved... sorta



bdking57
07-14-2005, 12:00 PM
I finally got my car up to EIP racing yesterday. The experience was great.. just what I would expect when spending alot of money on tuning. I was kept in formed throughout the session of the progress of the car and the areas that needed to be adressed. Previously the car did not exceed 221whp/220tq.. with no diagnosis of the problem. Paul at EIP quickly pointed out the timing was being held back. My baseline pull was at 186whp at a 10.1 A/R after having to detune the car for safety reason. He managed 222whp and 242ft/lbs after 2 hours of dyno time at 11.3 A/R. The car feels awesome and idles the best it ever has. Cam gears are at -1/-4.

The timing is off a tooth so I will be putting hte stock cam gears back on, going with new HD timing and balancer belts, new valve cover gasket/head studs/ light weight pulleys (other then on the crank)/ high flow cat and im strongly considering the 269 works power cams. I was offered a really good deal on a TME turbo, but the cams may offer me more low end which would help with autox. Anyone else wanted to back me up on my decision? Anything else I should take car of while im at it? Im trying to give my evo a new life now that I have a diagnosis of the problem.

earlyapex
07-14-2005, 01:18 PM
Glad to hear you kinda figured it out.

How did you timing get off a tooth? Who installed the cam gears?

I think you will be suprised at the difference one tooth off will do. :)

bdking57
07-14-2005, 01:25 PM
jerrold did the the install.. although we were all sitting there watching the install. Its my opinion that something was already wrong... although we did have a little mishap during the install that may have caused the problem, im think it was off prior to the cam gear install. Paul was also working on a 430whp MR while I was there.. (im wondering whos car that was! :shock: ) He said the cam gears on that car had different diameter teeth.. so they were also throwing timing off. After listening to the negative things he had to say about cam gears i will feel much safer installing the works 269 cams which are optimized for the stock usdm cam sprockets. Im taking the cam gear off anyway because it appears that the cam gears have bolts that decide to just snap off randomly... not good.

I also had paul dial in my AVC-R perfectly... I love this boost controller! I have two different boost maps programmed and they both hold perfectly to redline, with some electronic taper dialed in just in case.

The car does have very good torque distribution now... feels nice, im trying to build it mostly for low end power and fast spool. Im sure ill be shock at the difference when this car is making somewhere in the 260 range like it should be and not coming up short on whp.

one other thing to mention is that the MR that put down 430whp baselined at 205.. im thinking this dyno read even lower then gruppe-s dyno.

GReddy_917
07-14-2005, 01:30 PM
. He managed 222whp and 242ft/lbs after 2 hours of dyno time at 11.3 A/R. The car feels awesome and idles the best it ever has. Cam gears are at -1/-4.

Wow B..those numbers seem really low :( ...what engine mods other than the cam gears do you have? Im glad your car is running smoother now...but damn.

bdking57
07-14-2005, 01:34 PM
see my note aboveabout the mr.. only put down 205 on that dyno and i believe that was with a turbo back. Marcel would no more then anyone how that one reads compared to gruppe-s mustang.. maybe he will chime in. Im not disapointed at all because on the other hand the car handles great and ran very nicely at my first autox

SouthernCrane
07-14-2005, 03:52 PM
glad to see that you are getting back on track with the car B.

evo_dadi
07-14-2005, 04:41 PM
lol about time man :wink: :lol: the dyno reading is about the same between the 2 when you really look at it.its just some cars read low and some are freakishly high.i would go with the cams first tho then you can get the tme later on since the end results kinda close between the two.try going with the 272/264 set up if you really want to get it set up for autox. ill let you try drive my car one of this weekend to try out how my set up is :twisted:

bdking57
07-14-2005, 07:15 PM
and you will need to try out my marshall spec suspension setup :D it rocks. Im feeling my car is gonna be pretty fast on saturday.. watch out, by the end of the day when i started to get a hang of it i was 30 seconds off marshalls times.. that was with all 186whp. The evos need to start rocking some m3s worlds now.

300kpa
07-14-2005, 07:15 PM
I say cams. But I think having a set of cam gears can help you dial in more torue for auto-x purpose. Torque makes a faster car than HP does in auto-x.

I am kind of lost here... are those the dyno numbers before you fixed your problem? And you didn't have the problem fixed yet? Or is that why you have -1/-4 setting in your cam gears? I wouldn't spend 2 hours of WOT on dyno before fixing the problem. :roll:

bdking57
07-14-2005, 07:24 PM
well the works cams should be optimized for more low end torque with the cam sprockets or thats what it says.. aftermarket cam gears are needed specifically when the cams are not optimized for a the usdm evo 8 to dial them in.. right?

evo_dadi
07-14-2005, 09:19 PM
well the works cams should be optimized for more low end torque with the cam sprockets or thats what it says.. aftermarket cam gears are needed specifically when the cams are not optimized for a the usdm evo 8 to dial them in.. right?

the works 269 doesnt need any cam gears for it since it was supposedly designed to coincide with the stock cam gears.theyre more needed for higher profile cams since youre trying to get an ideal powerband as with lower profile cams its just a tad step up from stock so there isnt much left to be had.

300kpa
07-15-2005, 12:55 AM
aftermarket cam gears are needed specifically when the cams are not optimized for a the usdm evo 8 to dial them in.. right?

FWIW, JDM cam profile and timing is identical to the USDM car. So a cam profile like HKS 264 or 272 will work the same in JDM engine or USDM one. They work well without adjustable cam gears, but you just have an option to reduce overlap for better idle, or shift the power band a bit.

Evo_dadi is right, that means you don;t really need adjustable cam gears unless you go with 272's or 280.

bdking57
07-15-2005, 08:50 AM
Thanks for the advice.. I talked to Marcel last night and I think im going to pick up the following.

LP Resonated Test Pipe
Crower Ti Springs/Retainers
ARP head studs
GSC 264/264
Greddy Kevlar Timing Belt and Balancer Belt

My only other decision is if I should add new injectors to the mix. I already have a Walbro 255 and LP FPR (bumped up 2psi)

MarkSAE
07-15-2005, 09:46 AM
Wow, talk about keep throwing parts at the car until the problem disappears! haha.. j/k man.. glad to hear you found the root cause to your low power problems. You're movin' in the right direction. Where are you gonna get the cams, springs, and retainers installed at?

JanSolo
07-15-2005, 09:47 AM
Greddy Kevlar Timing Belt and Balancer Belt

The GReddy Kevlar timing belt is the first revision of the Power Enterprises timing belt. I would probably skip it and buy the Power Enterprises version 2 super strong timing belt since the new one is supposed to be better, stronger, etc.

TylerO@WORKS
07-15-2005, 11:01 AM
WORKS 269 Cams were engineered to have the best cam timing built into the cam. Our cams are indexed so you don't have to buy cam gears to get good power.

http://www.worksevo.com/store/images/IMG_8950_cams.jpg


HKS cams are indexed to zero... so there is no built in cam timing. With HKS cams you have to buy cam gears to get the most out of them, making them considerably more expensive than our 269 cams.

bdking57
07-15-2005, 02:10 PM
EIP is doing the install and tuning. This is a case of i might as well do cams while they do the belts... didnt make sense not to go all out, and at the same time im eliminating cam gears and my high flow cat... anyone need a HF cat? No one in this area is really into modded imports ( just a bunch of ricers with fart cans) so im not concerned about someone checking for one.


I would have really liked to get the works cams but they were more then i could afford right now.

I ended up with,
264/264 GSC
FIC 650CC injectors
Greddy Belts
High flow cat
SS brake lines
for a ridiculous price.

evo_dadi
07-15-2005, 05:33 PM
sounds good man :twisted: cant wait for the results 8)

DRFTR8
07-15-2005, 11:36 PM
go with the 264/272 if you can... better results i think

MitsuMan
07-16-2005, 12:20 AM
. He managed 222whp and 242ft/lbs after 2 hours of dyno time at 11.3 A/R. The car feels awesome and idles the best it ever has. Cam gears are at -1/-4.

Wow B..those numbers seem really low :( ...what engine mods other than the cam gears do you have? Im glad your car is running smoother now...but damn.
:lol:
yea what he said like my car put down 240 just with exhaust and exede
:? :? :? :?

bdking57
07-16-2005, 08:07 AM
better results and no chance of passing emissions.. i may have a hope and a prayer with the 264/264s... throw in some 100octane, run a special safcII map.. hide that thing, and put the cat back on. Im hoping that gets me through. plus for autox im hearing 264/264 is the way to go... more low end torque, i could care less about peak numbers :roll:


go with the 264/272 if you can... better results i think

300kpa
07-16-2005, 09:21 AM
FYI, lower octane burns cleaner. So for smog check, put a tank of 87, turn down the boost as low as possible just in case. Too bad using SAFC you can't retard timing to avoid knock as certain area, but I doubt that will be an issue if it is solely for smog. There is vertually 0 boost when doing smog.

dohcvtec
07-18-2005, 01:38 PM
better results and no chance of passing emissions.. i may have a hope and a prayer with the 264/264s... throw in some 100octane, run a special safcII map.. hide that thing, and put the cat back on. Im hoping that gets me through. plus for autox im hearing 264/264 is the way to go... more low end torque, i could care less about peak numbers :roll:


go with the 264/272 if you can... better results i think
I have not heard of 272's failing emissions. Plus, you don't need to smog your car until 2009 :P

300kpa
07-18-2005, 01:48 PM
I have not heard of 272's failing emissions. Plus, you don't need to smog your car until 2009 :P

Yes, no smog until 2009... and that's probably why we haven't heard 272 failing emissions :D With the way it idles, I am certain that it won't pass. But who cares? Enjoy your it until 2009 and swap out the cam if needed! :twisted:

MarkSAE
07-18-2005, 02:08 PM
I have not heard of 272's failing emissions. Plus, you don't need to smog your car until 2009 :P

I hooked my old GSX to a smog machine when it had 272s and no cam gears and it failed miserably. ;) My idle was pretty lumpy. Each lump resulted in the HC count shooting up.

It's not the same car, but gives you an idea of how a lumpy idle affects emissons. I wouldn't count on being able to pass w/ cams.

bdking57
07-18-2005, 07:35 PM
yeah.. how many cars have passed with 272s is a question... 0? 8)

onesicklambo
07-18-2005, 08:50 PM
i ahve HKS 264/264 and i got it because my turbo has LAG for days, so these cams could give me some low end torque and help out with that lag. Havent had to do emissions yet :shock:

Gruppe-S
07-18-2005, 11:11 PM
Glad you got your car figured out! I thought we mentioned your cam gears might be off a tooth or two when we tuned your car. Anyways, gluck with your car. Cams will be a great additon to what you already got....def help you on the upper RPM range.

Tom

300kpa
07-18-2005, 11:33 PM
How do you check if you are off a tooth? I assume if you line up teh TDC mark to on the crank pulley, the TDC marks align to the marks onb teh cam cover, then you are good right?

MarkSAE
07-19-2005, 12:32 AM
How do you check if you are off a tooth? I assume if you line up teh TDC mark to on the crank pulley, the TDC marks align to the marks onb teh cam cover, then you are good right?

When your engine is at TDC, the marks on the crank pulley and cam gears should all be lined up. If one of your cam gears is off by a tooth, the cam gear marks will never be able to line up correctly.

Sometimes the cam gear marks can be deceiving, depending on what angle you're looking at it. It's best to hold up a straight-edge of some sort to make sure it's really lined up.

300kpa
07-19-2005, 01:03 AM
Thanks MarkSAE!

To those of you who using Fidanza, there are two holes that you can install your camshafts with. Make sure that you are using the cam index hole that says 'EVO'. The other hole is for the DSM cars, not Evo. The cam timing will be off if you used the other hole. If you used the wrong hole, you can offset the difference by adjusting teh tinming, but you need to knwo how much to adjust. May be your Fidanza dealer can help with the information.

Good luck!

bdking57
07-31-2005, 05:36 PM
wait.. your saying if you completely do a new belt you still cant line them up 100%? I think in my case it either skipped.. or the belt has stretched. I have seen other pictures of the belt stretching severely.. i have 55K on my car now. Other long tern tests have shown a significant decrease in hp over time.. im wondering if the belts stretched on those car as well?



How do you check if you are off a tooth? I assume if you line up teh TDC mark to on the crank pulley, the TDC marks align to the marks onb teh cam cover, then you are good right?

When your engine is at TDC, the marks on the crank pulley and cam gears should all be lined up. If one of your cam gears is off by a tooth, the cam gear marks will never be able to line up correctly.

Sometimes the cam gear marks can be deceiving, depending on what angle you're looking at it. It's best to hold up a straight-edge of some sort to make sure it's really lined up.

bdking57
07-31-2005, 05:41 PM
The day is almost here.. im leaving early tommorow for EIP. Im feeling a little nervous. Not at all like the night before christmas for a little kid.. I know im getting something, and crossing my fingers its going to be something good.

The engine already has 222whp/242tq mustang dyno at 105deg
02 housing
SAFCII
AVC-R
AMS lower pipe
Upper Pipe
Turbo back
Adjustable FPR
Walbro 255

Ill be adding
Test pipe
GSC 264/264
FIC 650 injectors
Kevlar timing and balancer belt
Hawk HPS
SS brake lines
:?

earlyapex
07-31-2005, 08:12 PM
what dyno does EIP use? remember not to compare numbers from different dynos, locations like you did with all the cars at the gruppe-s dyno day. :D

And good luck tomorrow, looking forward to seeing you car run right! 8)

evo_dadi
07-31-2005, 11:03 PM
lol brian's gonna be like a kid coming out of a toystore :lol:

hey bryan eip uses a mustang dyno also so the results might be close 8)

bdking57
08-01-2005, 08:05 AM
Its a mustang dyno and it reads very similiar to gruppe-s.. i believe marcell can attest to this since he sheets pretty much look identical. I was already at eip for tuning and the car was at a baseline of 186whp when i came in. The car originally made 221/224 at gruppe-s before i most likely plugged an intake leak causing the car to run at a 12.6 and 200whp with pulled timing.

just as a baseline the mr that was there the same day made 209...after the turbo upgrade 430. Whos car was that!


Did i hear someone just put down 280 at eip.. then 330 on shivs dyno? :wink:

DB8GSR
08-01-2005, 09:05 AM
haha.. a little OT. I find this sentence somewhat funny. :lol: :lol:



i believe marcell can attest to this since he sheets pretty much look identical.



Good luck bd! :D

MarkSAE
08-01-2005, 10:14 AM
wait.. your saying if you completely do a new belt you still cant line them up 100%? I think in my case it either skipped.. or the belt has stretched. I have seen other pictures of the belt stretching severely.. i have 55K on my car now. Other long tern tests have shown a significant decrease in hp over time.. im wondering if the belts stretched on those car as well?


No. I'm saying that if your timing belt skipped a tooth, the timing marks will never line up. You have to take the belt off and realign the cam gears to fix it. I highly doubt your timing belt skipped a tooth due to it being old. It most likely skipped because your tensioner wasn't set right.

bdking57
08-01-2005, 06:53 PM
:( car wasnt done today.. should have it back tommorow. Talk about a money pit.. i found out the rotors are on their last legs as well, jesus.. i need to stop driving this car now :?

evo_dadi
08-01-2005, 09:01 PM
you did bought it used tho :P at least the issue was found now rather later while on an autox event or on your daily grind.

bdking57
08-01-2005, 09:06 PM
note to self.. never buy a used evo. Shit! to late. :( No worries, i have an evo X in my future :wink:

earlyapex
08-02-2005, 10:14 AM
Did they measure the rotor thickness?

bdking57
08-02-2005, 11:47 AM
Yes they did.. they said resurfacing the rotor would have put it out of spec ( increase the chance of cracking) so they left it.. said i should get some new rotors when i have the money. It looks like my car has no chance of ever competing in esp so i might as well go for the the girodisc 2 piece floating front and a cheaper rear rotor.

one more thing, I noticed for the last 3K miles or so the brake light has been on and off.. when i step on the brakes hard it goes away, but it would come on under heavy acceleration or just randomly.. I havent felt and uneveness under braking.



I just bought an engagement ring though so there goes all my mod money for the entire year. :D

earlyapex
08-02-2005, 11:59 AM
one more thing, I noticed for the last 3K miles or so the brake light has been on and off.. when i step on the brakes hard it goes away, but it would come on under heavy acceleration or just randomly.. I havent felt and uneveness under braking.


Sounds like your brake fluid is low.

bdking57
08-02-2005, 01:38 PM
oh no.. yet another obstacle. The little black loner civic from EIP seems leaking radiator fluid and steaming. I saw the temp surging upwards as i was pulling into the parking lot at work :x I need to drive this thing from salinas to san jose in rush hour traffic this afternoon . Any body want to lend a hand if i get myself stranded? :D

RT
08-02-2005, 04:22 PM
...."Whatever, sell the Evo and buy an Atom"..... :P

bdking57
08-02-2005, 08:30 PM
:D I want an atom, oh well this will do :wink: my original baseline was 186whp!
http://www.norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/album178/scan_001.sized.jpg
Pauls the man...he put alot of time into the car (2 days!) and I was able to leave with my shirt and shoes on. :lol:

We ended up detuning the car just a little bit. I decided on running around an 11.1 A/R since i want it to be autox/track safe.. gave up about 10peak whp.

evo_dadi
08-02-2005, 10:07 PM
how in the hell did you get a 2203 evo :shock: :lol: looks good b :twisted:

bdking57
08-02-2005, 10:09 PM
Yes.. I have a 2203 Evolution XXXXXXVI :D

So we measured the belts and they looked the same. There was not a belt stretching issue, which means the timing had skipped one tooth or more for sure.


and the brake light issue was resolved when the new brakes went on. The brakes feel awesome now!.. still need to bed in the pads however. I just have to get rid of that pesky cel light and ill be all set

RT
08-02-2005, 10:28 PM
...oh, just kidding, good jump in power, must feel like a new(er) Evo now? :wink:

wilson1
08-02-2005, 10:59 PM
nice dyno!!!!

earlyapex
08-03-2005, 12:18 AM
:D I want an atom, oh well this will do :wink: my original

Looks like its running better now. What boost pressure?

How come it drops off so much at 6700? whats the little peak in power at 6400ish for like 200 rpms? (which is making your peak hp)

Have a AFR graph?

MarkSAE
08-03-2005, 12:26 AM
Glad to see you've gotten your power issues sorted out. What are you using for boost control? I'm curious about the power drop-off after 6700 rpm as well.

bdking57
08-03-2005, 06:46 AM
im not running much boost. Im using an AVC-R and could not be happier. Its only peaking at 1.45 mmhg and falls to about 19.5 and i believe it tapers to 18 psi but I have to look. I can pull it out so it doesnt taper as much but wouldnt that be kinda dangerous since i plan on bouncing this car off the rev limiter alot at autox?

bdking57
08-03-2005, 06:51 AM
look at the torque :twisted: Ill post my other graph tonight, he wasnt finished tuning at the time.



:D I want an atom, oh well this will do :wink: my original

Looks like its running better now. What boost pressure?

How come it drops off so much at 6700? whats the little peak in power at 6400ish for like 200 rpms? (which is making your peak hp)

Have a AFR graph?

SouthernCrane
08-03-2005, 07:10 AM
wow, your car is very much fixed now :twisted: time to have fun.

earlyapex
08-03-2005, 10:47 AM
look at the torque :twisted: Ill post my other graph tonight, he wasnt finished tuning at the time.



:D I want an atom, oh well this will do :wink: my original

Looks like its running better now. What boost pressure?

How come it drops off so much at 6700? whats the little peak in power at 6400ish for like 200 rpms? (which is making your peak hp)

Have a AFR graph?

Yea I see the like 20ft/lb of trq peak torque spike when the boost spikes then it settles back down like 15ft/lb.

I am still very curious about that weird HP spike at 6400rpms for a very small 200rpms before it drops like a rock at like 6600rpms. Did EIP take it all the way to redline on any runs?

Overall, a pretty decent curve for a 9.8 hotside car, must feel much better than before.

bdking57
08-03-2005, 11:34 AM
There was definately more room to go, and yeah the hotside would be nice, but im not sure i want to go that direction. If the price came back down on the FPWR I would be intrested. A TME would be intresting too.. but im wondering just how quick a TME turbo retrofitted with the smaller hotside would spool? Either way I dont really think I need more power, just good responsivness and torque for autox.

Paul said the FIC injectors seemed to preform really well.. they were more then enough for this setup and really cheap as well. The fuel control down low is very tight with the adjustable fpr. We are running lower then stock fuel pressure and the walbro 255 does not overflow this regulator like the stocker.. not that big of an issue but it might have help torque unset a little? :?: