PDA

View Full Version : The tuning process begins!!!!



Stormtrooper
01-31-2006, 02:51 AM
Finally got the UTEC in today and started playing around a bit.

First of all i raised boost to 1.4bar (a little over 20psi) from 1.2bar (about 17.5psi).

I did a couple back to back runs after I richened it up a bit (wanted a safety buffer with the added boost) one from low rpm to redline in 3rd gear, then one from 1st gear WOT all the way till 4th.

AFR was sitting right at 11.0 in the first run (with the complete 3rd gear).
In the next run where i went through the gears, AFR was richer sitting between 10.1-10.3.

The load points seem to be the same between the two runs in 3rd gear, but going through the gears it seems to be much richer.... is this due to other factors (eg higher coolant temp from the lower gears)? Going through the gears should I be seeing the same AFRs as the complete 3rd gear pull?

In terms of timing, I haven't touched it yet (still on the works map), but most i seem to be getting is around 18.5 degrees at 7200-7300rpm. Should I be targeting closer to 20 degrees in this range?

Oh yeah, egts still seem a little higher than expected, hovering around 900C plus and minus 10C (in 3rd and 4th gear).

No signs of knock anywhere right now... it looks like there's still some good power there to be made.

-Jeff

earlyapex
01-31-2006, 11:05 AM
Lower gears will show leaner AFR's and higher gears will show richer. It has to do with load. More load in higher gears.

If you get 3rd tuned well all the other gears will be pretty ok.

18 degrees is plenty on 91 octane at that boost level. Once you go beyond that knock can become an issue.

Over 900c is bad bad bad on EGT's. Where is your probe located? The highest EGT I hit on the street, even in full 4th gear pulls is around 840c. At the track I see about 880c.

Can you list your mods again? Also, outputting a log from a 3rd gear pull from UTEC would be helpful.

btw, it's always nice to see people learning to tune their own cars. :)

Stormtrooper
02-01-2006, 12:23 AM
Hey Bryan,

Thanks for the feedback...

EGT probe is located on the 2nd runner right in front of the edge of the manifold heat shield.

The thing is, for both runs i'm talking about 3rd gear afr, the only difference is that one run i'm doing only 3rd from 2k rpm all the way up, and the other i'm starting in 1st and going through the gears. For the same load points and same rpm in 3rd gear, one run (the only with only 3rd) shows leaner. I'm gonna see if I can post my wideband logs for both runs.

It seems like my timing isn't all that aggresive and afr is pretty conservative as well.... do you have any ideas about why my egts are showing so high?

Another thing... my injector duty cycle is in the high 90s.... i'll be upgrading those as soon as they're back in stock at gruppe-s but i didn't think this could possible = high egts...

Thanks
Jeff

MarkSAE
02-01-2006, 01:08 AM
Timing affects EGTs as well. Less timing = higher EGTs.

earlyapex
02-01-2006, 01:20 AM
Timing affects EGTs as well. Less timing = higher EGTs.

Yea but you gotta be running some really low timing to see your EGT's change alot.

I didn't see much change in my EGT's on the dyno from running 20 degrees max to running 15 degrees max, and everywhere inbetween.

Storm, are you running a greddy EGT guage?

How high 90's duty cycle are your injectors?

Could you list all your mods again if you don't mind?

Stormtrooper
02-01-2006, 02:17 AM
oh yeah sorry...

Mods:

Works 269 Cams
Works Valvetrain
Works Turboback with ABM and high flow cat
Works Drop-in Filter
Walbro 255 Fuel Pump
FP White Rabbit w/ actuator
TurboXS UTEC

I think thats relevant in terms of power...

For the EGT, its actually just the EGT add on kit for the PLX R500 (probe that hooks directly into that unit).

I saw 98.4 duty cycle last night in the last log.

-Jeff

EVO GRIM
02-01-2006, 07:48 AM
Time for injectors homie.

earlyapex
02-01-2006, 11:47 AM
Time for injectors homie.

Yup, 98% duty cycle is bad news.

When do you see the 98%? Up top?

With cams and an upgraded turbo you really should have injectors. 660cc should be fine unless you plan on going to a even bigger turbo in the future.

Gruppe-S
02-01-2006, 11:50 AM
Like I have said many times before. Any Evo owners with Cams and TBE should purchase larger injectors like 660cc or 720cc. We have the Helix 720cc at a very competitive price so please let us know if you need some.

Thanks,
Tom

Stormtrooper
02-01-2006, 02:26 PM
yeah.. as soon as those come back in stock, i'll be picking up a set =D

interesting that works initially told that that they won't be needed at this boost level and setup.

Are you still selling your set Marshall? =D

even though they're maxed out, would this contribute towards the higher egts? Maybe I'll try playing with ignition some tonight...

Thanks for the feedback guys!
Jeff

dohcvtec
02-01-2006, 03:08 PM
interesting that works initially told that that they won't be needed at this boost level and setup.

Imagine that.. :?

zyounker
02-01-2006, 03:46 PM
Lower gears will show leaner AFR's and higher gears will show richer. It has to do with load. More load in higher gears.


I think you have this backwards.. Higher load will require more fuel. So it should be richer in the lower gears and lean out in the higher gears.



Tuning should usually be done under MAX load as well.. If you tune in 1st gear and then go out and load the car up in 5th gear you can have issues.

earlyapex
02-01-2006, 03:48 PM
I think you have this backwards.. Higher load will require more fuel. So it should be richer in the lower gears and lean out in the higher gears.



No I don't have it backwards. Higher load does require more fuel so the car puts more fuel in higher load cells, which is why lower gears are leaner and higher gears are richer.

Want to see 5+ years worth of logs?


Tuning should usually be done under MAX load as well.. If you tune in 1st gear and then go out and load the car up in 5th gear you can have issues.

Nobody tunes in 1st because there isn't enough load and usually not full boost because of it and it also goes by too quickly to get enough data points in logs.

Nobody tunes in 5th because there isn't enough airflow on the dyno for it and not enough straight ground on the street for it. Most people tune in 3rd or 4th because its the median and just triple check all the other gears on the street.

zyounker
02-01-2006, 04:02 PM
No I don't have it backwards. Higher load does require more fuel so the car puts more fuel in higher load cells, which is why lower gears are leaner and higher gears are richer.

Want to see 5+ years worth of logs?



Sorry, i read it out of context. The way you said it sounded like the car would require more fuel in the lower gears.




Nobody tunes in 1st because there isn't enough load and usually not full boost because of it and it also goes by too quickly to get enough data points in logs.

Nobody tunes in 5th because there isn't enough airflow on the dyno for it and not enough straight ground on the street for it. Most people tune in 3rd or 4th because its the median and just triple check all the other gears on the street.


Exactly my point.. Don't tune in the lower gears or he will have issues.

When i tuned my RX7s we use to always do a run in 5th to be safe. We didnt run it all the way up though, just for the low RPM high boost to get the right load..

We also tuned on the street using hills to simulate high load. which worked well.

earlyapex
02-01-2006, 05:09 PM
Stormy,

Have a 3rd gear pull log we can look at yet?

300kpa
02-01-2006, 07:38 PM
EGT.... I can't think of why it is so high if you are ruinning at low 11.0 AFR with a healthy ignition timing. What kind of spark plug are you running? Is it one step colder? If not, it's a must do for your level of power.

I've been tuning UTEC for a while and I can probably help you out on that.
Here are some hints... UTEC uses 11 load sites in 250 RPM increments. In order to tune most of the sites that you will hit, you want to tune 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gears. To start, tune your 3rd gear run from 2000-redline. Adjust your AFR for those sites that you "travelled" through. Then repeat start from 3000 rpm, then 4000 rpm, and 5000 RPM. It will cover most of the map that you will ever need to tune.

Now tune 2nd gear, it is a bit tricky because you won't be able to get enough data to tune. So just do your best and check if everything looks fine, just to make sure your AFR is not out of wack in some area.

Fourth gear. It is very similar to 3rd gear, but you will see a lot more load with it. If you see a good tune in 3rd, it doesn't mean you don't get knocks in 4th. You will probably have hard time to find enough road to do a WOT run to redline, it's not safe anyway. Try to at least do a quick logs from 2000-4000, 3000-4000, 4000-5000. This should cover just about all the sites you will ever use.

There are a lot more to it, but it is how I tune my car.

Good luck!

-Clive

300kpa
02-01-2006, 07:42 PM
Jeff, by the way, are you tuning UTEC in open loop fuel mode or you will be running off Work's flash? If you plan to sell your WOrks flash, you might as well start tuning it in OLF mode.

-Clive

Stormtrooper
02-02-2006, 03:37 PM
I did some more tuning last night and started to play with timing. I advanced the midrange and a little bit high end topping out at 20 degrees at 7300rpm.

Car feels better and, EGT also came down a bit.

A few screenshots of the logs:

Final 3rd gear run last night: egt/afr
http://www.norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/album420/last_plx.jpg

Final 3rd gear run last night: afr/rpm
http://www.norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/album420/last_plx_afr.jpg

Final 3rd gear run last night: UTEC
http://www.norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/album420/last_utec.jpg

Run from when I first got started (Works tune): afr/egt
http://www.norcalevo.net/gallery/albums/album420/orig_boost_plx.jpg

Hey Clive,
I'm actually just running closed loop fuel tuning right now off of the works tune. Seems to be ok and reasonably consistent. I'm debating whether or not to sell the P2 and retune.

Thanks for the quick guide! Now that I have a ok baseline, I think I'll start finetuning following your tips.

Yeah, actually I just changed to plugs that are 1 step colder than stock.

Maybe at the next dinner meet you can do some runs with me and check out the logs...


Thanks
-Jeff

300kpa
02-02-2006, 03:59 PM
Hi Jeff,

Couple more hints for you...
If you feel a stuble when UTEC kicks in in partial throttle, try to set you 10% load site to "ECU" and then plug in the timing for the 20% load site to try to smooth it out. Adjusting the MIN MAF logging setting can help in come cases.

Looks like you are not using all the load sites in UTEC, may be you should adjust the MAX MAF logging a point or 2 lower, so you will hit 90% before redline (in 3rd gear). You better do it now than later, so you don't have to start all over in tunbing your car.

Remember changing timing will alter the AFR too, so make sure you keep your eyes on AFR as you start cranking up the timing.

BTW, looks like you can crank up at least 1 degree of timing below 4000rpm to start with. Timing looks good in the upper RPM. Red flag for the inj. duty cycle though... I really hate to see anything over 90% and you are running at 96%. See your log at 7137 rpm? IDC is zero!!! I am not sure what happaned there, it could be just a glitch in the software. But I would lean out the 6800+ rpm area to gain some power while keeping the IDC a little lower to be safe. Use the current EGT for reference and you don't want to run higher than what you have now.

Yeah, we can chat about it next time we meet. I will try my best to come to the meet next week... but then, I will be out of teh coutry for over a month. But feel free to PM me if you have questions.

Good luck!

earlyapex
02-02-2006, 04:22 PM
So you're having to add fuel over what the P2 is doing until 6800 rpm eh?

I really think you should get some injectors. It's up to you if you want to get rid of the P2. Personally I think it's weird to tune on top of a flash like that but to each their own.

I haven't looked into the UTEC much but what are those MOD timing numbers showing? Target timing?

The ECU timing looks good, anyway to show AFR's in that UTEC log as well? I can't read shizzle from those curve plots.

You really need to bring those EGT's down more. 880-990c IMHO is too high to run on street on 91 octane. You can do it, but it's a little uncomfortable for me. 850-870c is my max target on the street.

zyounker
02-02-2006, 04:49 PM
As people said.. GET INJECTORS.. until then i would lower the boost until you get new injectors if i were you. You are pushing the injectors too hard.. one sticks and boom.

Stormtrooper
02-02-2006, 09:15 PM
Hey Clive,

Thanks I'll try that setting for 10%, I did notice a bit of stumbling when I first get on it. When it changes over from 10% to 20% load you don't get the same effect then?

Yeah, I actually had it set on 1700MAF max before, but I changed it to 2000 to give myself some headroom for the future if I want to try higher boost or an injection system of some kind.

Hey Bryan,

Yeah, the last PLX plot I posted is actually my car on just the works tune before I did anything. After I added boost, I added 1.5% fuel to that range to go from the 11.3 range to the 11.0-11.2 range.

Yeah you're right, there's really no point in keeping the works flash. The boost and timing maps are already set, and I'll probably have to retune for the new injectors anyways.

The MOD timing is the actual timing i'm getting driven by the UTEC. The ECU timing is the timing that's actually on the ECU (eg the works flash map) that isn't being used.

Any ideas on how I can lower EGT? If I lean out top end wouldn't that raise EGTs?

Injectors are on the way :D

-Jeff

GokuSSJ4
02-02-2006, 09:57 PM
its best if you get rid off the flash, sometimes it will not allow you to maximize your set up when using it in conjuction with a piggy back.

earlyapex
02-02-2006, 10:02 PM
Jeff, just realized your knock column is blank, do you log that?

300kpa
02-03-2006, 10:13 AM
When it changes over from 10% to 20% load you don't get the same effect then?
-Jeff

I think it really depends on how you drive your car. You have to play around with it to see what works best.

300kpa
02-03-2006, 10:14 AM
Jeff, just realized your knock column is blank, do you log that?

It will only show knock counts if there is knock. So it's a good think that column is blank.

earlyapex
02-03-2006, 12:27 PM
Jeff, just realized your knock column is blank, do you log that?

It will only show knock counts if there is knock. So it's a good think that column is blank.

How does it process knock counts? Does it process the stock knock sensors volts? So the UTEC knows what actual volts are considered real knock?

300kpa
02-03-2006, 01:52 PM
How does it process knock counts? Does it process the stock knock sensors volts? So the UTEC knows what actual volts are considered real knock?

UTEC uses knock voltage/noise level to determine knocks. TurboXS has a set of default that works very well, but you can customize the "sensitivity" of it for each rpm region. The lower numbers = less sensitive.

earlyapex
02-03-2006, 02:38 PM
How does it process knock counts? Does it process the stock knock sensors volts? So the UTEC knows what actual volts are considered real knock?

UTEC uses knock voltage/noise level to determine knocks. TurboXS has a set of default that works very well, but you can customize the "sensitivity" of it for each rpm region. The lower numbers = less sensitive.

So why can't you just log knock volts all the time like you can on ECU+?

300kpa
02-03-2006, 07:23 PM
So why can't you just log knock volts all the time like you can on ECU+?

You will have to take that question to the TurboXS programmers :D
I just know that it only registers as knocks when the voltage spiked above the preset noise level at that particular RPM. But it works like a chime. In fact, I think logging voltage from the knock sensor will not be very useful when you can only do so little sampling in one second. It can be a good reference, but it doesn't mean you don;t get knock if you don't see its voltage spiking high. It could be just your logger didn't catch the moment in that 1/20th of a second. Fortunately, the ECU knows when to pull timing without you seeing it.

What makes UTEC so unique is its stand alone open loop fueling and stand alone static timing map. It is one of the piggy backs that is closest to a stand alone ECU. The feature makes tuning much easier without guessing and fooling with what the ECU wants to run. You just tell it what to run. IMHO, dynamic timing/fueling could be easier for a mildly tuned street car to adapt to different weather and condition, but it will take a lot of guessing games to make consistence power run after runs.
Again, it's just me, but some people like the dynamic timing that the factory ECU does. I think if you get very familiar with the unit and your car, these are just different approaches for the same result.

-Clive

earlyapex
02-03-2006, 08:33 PM
What makes UTEC so unique is its stand alone open loop fueling and stand alone static timing map. It is one of the piggy backs that is closest to a stand alone ECU. The feature makes tuning much easier without guessing and fooling with what the ECU wants to run. You just tell it what to run. IMHO, dynamic timing/fueling could be easier for a mildly tuned street car to adapt to different weather and condition, but it will take a lot of guessing games to make consistence power run after runs.
Again, it's just me, but some people like the dynamic timing that the factory ECU does. I think if you get very familiar with the unit and your car, these are just different approaches for the same result.

-Clive

Clive, I'm not knocking the UTEC whatsover, just asking questions since I don't know much about it. :wink:

300kpa
02-03-2006, 11:15 PM
Clive, I'm not knocking the UTEC whatsover, just asking questions since I don't know much about it. :wink:

It's cool, I am not an UTEC vendor :lol:

Stormtrooper
02-04-2006, 10:29 PM
hmmm I actually have the knock wire hooked up to the PLX.... I should be logging knock voltage there.

Hey Clive, what do you have the knock threshold set at (number of knock counts before it starts pulling timing)? mine is set at 1 right now just for extra safety, I think default is 3.

Thanks
-Jeff

300kpa
02-05-2006, 02:51 AM
hmmm I actually have the knock wire hooked up to the PLX.... I should be logging knock voltage there.

Hey Clive, what do you have the knock threshold set at (number of knock counts before it starts pulling timing)? mine is set at 1 right now just for extra safety, I think default is 3.

Thanks
-Jeff

I leave it at 3, and it seems to work very well. One thing you have to watch out for is that tapping the knock sensor wire, you may affect the sensitivity of the stock knock sensor by introducing extra noise to the signal... I can be wrong though.

Instead, for extra safty, I set my UTEC to pull 2 degrees of timing when knock is detected (default =1). I can clearly feel the timing retarding if ECU detected knocks.

earlyapex
02-05-2006, 10:45 AM
Instead, for extra safty, I set my UTEC to pull 2 degrees of timing when knock is detected (default =1). I can clearly feel the timing retarding if ECU detected knocks.

Yea, I have the ECU+ set to pull 3 degrees and add 3 points of fuel. You can really tell when it does it, feels like fuel cut.

Stormtrooper
02-05-2006, 12:32 PM
Ok great, I'll do that right now (2 degrees timing pulled at once). I have yet to see a single knock count, but I am seeing some voltage readings on the PLX.

I'm also going to set 10% load for timing to ECU as you were suggesting Clive, I went for a cruise up highway 9 where I was kinda on and off partial throttle.... the car was stumbling quite a bit every time I got on it.

-Jeff

300kpa
02-05-2006, 04:46 PM
Ok great, I'll do that right now (2 degrees timing pulled at once). I have yet to see a single knock count, but I am seeing some voltage readings on the PLX.

I'm also going to set 10% load for timing to ECU as you were suggesting Clive, I went for a cruise up highway 9 where I was kinda on and off partial throttle.... the car was stumbling quite a bit every time I got on it.

-Jeff

It takes some time to dial it out perfectly. Go bacvk to your log and study what your ECU wants to run at 20% load switching from 10% load. Try to get it to within 2 degree timing. In my experience, as long as you keep teh transistion within 2.5 degree of timing, it will be very smooth. It took me a while to tune, but now it works out great and it now has to be an absolutely condition to cause the stumbling.

Also try to change the throttle position of when UTEC kicks in. It really depends on how you moderate your throttle while crussing/accelerating.