Weird alignment problem?

[Steiner]

Wanted to see what you guys think about this...

My car tracked perfectly straight until I got a tire rotation last week. Tire pressure was even on all 4 corners so I took it to Jack at Motorsport Techniques for an alignment. He showed me the "before" numbers and I had -.30 of front toe and -.21 of rear toe. He did the alignment but the car still pulls hard to the right when I'm on the freeway. The "after" alignment measurements look good to me. What the hec could be going on?

[Jay]

pulling is a camber issue as far as i know, not a toe
so check your camber.

[Steiner]

Before the alignment the front camber was -.60 for both the left and right. Rear camber was -1.0 for the left and -1.2 for the right.

After Jack's alignment front camber is now -.60 for the left and -.70 for the right. Rear camber is now -1.0 for both left and right.

I'm stumped. :?:

[dohcvtec]

I always thought pulling is a toe issue, not a camber issue...

[Jay]

I always thought pulling is a toe issue, not a camber issue...
Its camber (http://autorepair.about.com/cs/generalinfo/a/aa012201a.htm) (popup warning). Toe in its allways self centering.
What is the condition of your tires?

[earlyapex]

Stock suspension or?

Did you try calling Jack and asking him about it?

I had that happen once on one of my old cars and I just went back there and he fixed it. No problems.

[Steiner]

Stock suspension and the tires are pretty new. They're Falken Azenis with only about 5k miles on them. Before the alignment I explained the pulling problem to Mark and he in turn explained it to Jack. After the work was done Jack went over the specs with me and basically said he's done all he can and if the car is still pulling to one side then there's something seriously wrong with the car. These tires are too expensive for premature wear. I need to figure out what's going on.

Maybe I'll call Jack tomorrow. It couldn't hurt. I'm just hoping for some fresh ideas from you guys. It has something to do with that tire rotation but I dunno what exactly.

[EVO GRIM]

Call and take it back. If you have more neg camber on one side but the toe is eaven it shouldn't pull.

[Jay]

Call and take it back. If you have more neg camber on one side but the toe is eaven it shouldn't pull.
Toe dosn't cause pull, un even camber does.

[roevo]

what is your caster at? Also the air in the tires? you can try rotating them back, you might have a tire pull.

just my two cents.

ROe

[Steiner]

what is your caster at? Also the air in the tires? you can try rotating them back, you might have a tire pull.

just my two cents.

ROe
Air pressure is 36psi up front and 35psi in back. Caster is at 3.0 on the front left and 3.3 on the front right.

What do mean by tire pull?

[Jay]

I think what he means is that if your tires are warn in a certin way it will pull even if your alignment is in spec.

[roevo]

I think what he means is that if your tires are warn in a certin way it will pull even if your alignment is in spec.

Thats right. The caster split seems about right. if its pulling to the right it might be the crown in the road.

Roe

[Steiner]

[quote="Jay"]...it might be the crown in the road.

Roe

It's not the crown in the road. :roll:

[roevo]

[quote="Jay"]...it might be the crown in the road.

Roe

It's not the crown in the road. :roll:

well i guess i am out of ideas. witch way does it pull

[Jay]

Is it the loose nut behind the wheel?

[earlyapex]

Steiner,

Do you know if the lower offset bolts on the struts are set even on both sides?

[Steiner]

The car pulls to the right.

Steiner,

Do you know if the lower offset bolts on the struts are set even on both sides?
I don't. How do I check that?

[earlyapex]

The car pulls to the right.

Steiner,

Do you know if the lower offset bolts on the struts are set even on both sides?
I don't. How do I check that?

There are arrows on the bolt heads that attach the strut to the hub knuckle. They should both either be pointing in or pointing out.

[EVO GRIM]

Call and take it back. If you have more neg camber on one side but the toe is eaven it shouldn't pull.
Toe dosn't cause pull, un even camber does.

Dude if one tire is pointed out more than the other side (uneaven toe) it will pull that way.

[Steiner]

Thanks Bryan. I'll take a look.




Call and take it back. If you have more neg camber on one side but the toe is eaven it shouldn't pull.
Toe dosn't cause pull, un even camber does.

Dude if one tire is pointed out more than the other side (uneaven toe) it will pull that way.
Thank you. Pulling one way or the other is a toe-in or toe-out issue. But what do I know. Apparently I'm just the loose nut behind the wheel. :D

[Jay]

Thanks Bryan. I'll take a look.




Call and take it back. If you have more neg camber on one side but the toe is eaven it shouldn't pull.
Toe dosn't cause pull, un even camber does.

Dude if one tire is pointed out more than the other side (uneaven toe) it will pull that way.
Thank you. Pulling one way or the other is a toe-in or toe-out issue. But what do I know. Apparently I'm just the loose nut behind the wheel. :D
I don't know where this info came from..but a toe issue will be featherd tire wear and it will self center. With possably a cocked stearing wheel.
Did you read that artical that I posted earlier?
BTW that loose nut joke I made was just that, a Joke.
Here I will do the sin of quoting my self.


I always thought pulling is a toe issue, not a camber issue...
Its camber (http://autorepair.about.com/cs/generalinfo/a/aa012201a.htm) (popup warning). Toe in its allways self centering.
What is the condition of your tires?
Here is a quote from the artical if you don't feel like following the link.

#

Camber:
Camber is the tilting of the wheels from the vertical when viewed from the front of the vehicle. When the wheels tilt outward at the top, the camber is positive (+). When the wheel tilts inward at the top, the camber is negative (-). The amount of tilt is measured in degrees from the vertical. Camber settings influence the directional control and the tire wear.

Too much positive camber will result in premature wear on the outside of the tire and cause excessive wear on the suspension parts.

Too much negative camber will result in premature wear on the inside of the tire and cause excessive wear on the suspension parts.

Unequal side-to-side camber of 1° or more will cause the vehicle to pull or lead to the side with the most positive camber.

and now for toe

Toe:
Toe is a measurement of how much the front and/or rear wheels are turned in or out from a straight-ahead position. When the wheels are turned in, toe is positive (+). When the wheels are turned out, toe is negative (-). The actual amount of toe is normally only a fraction of a degree. The purpose of toe is to ensure that the wheels roll parallel. Toe also serves to offset the small deflections of the wheel support system that occur when the vehicle is rolling forward. In other words, with the vehicle standing still and the wheels set with toe-in, the wheels tend to roll parallel on the road when the vehicle is moving. Improper toe adjustment will cause premature tire wear and cause steering instability.
Now I'm going to ask again, where are you getting it that toe is the cause of a car pulling to one side?

[earlyapex]

Now I'm going to ask again, where are you getting it that toe is the cause of a car pulling to one side?

If toe is off on one side, it will create more friction which will cause that part of the rubber on the tire to "rub" the road more causing it the car to go one side or the other depending on toe in or out no?

[EVO GRIM]

With more thought I think you may be right. If one side had more toe out it would eaven out to be half as much on both side going down the road strait and would just cock your steering wheel off center. Must be camber. also check your wheels for any play.

[Jay]

Now I'm going to ask again, where are you getting it that toe is the cause of a car pulling to one side?

If toe is off on one side, it will create more friction which will cause that part of the rubber on the tire to "rub" the road more causing it the car to go one side or the other depending on toe in or out no?
No it wont.
Where did you get this info from?
Like I've said before,toe will self center.
If the adjustment is off on one side..then you will have a cocked stearing wheel.
EDIT: A list of a few things that will cause a pull
1) different tire pressure
2) tire size/diameter
3) dragging brake
4) uneven camber
5) uneven caster
6) uncentered/incorrectly indexed steering wheel (depending on PS system design)
7) road crown

just FYI

[earlyapex]

No it wont.
Where did you get this info from?

out my ass, hence the question mark on the end. :lol:

[Jay]

No worries.
I just dont like seeing bad info getting passed around.

[Steiner]

The tires I'm using are not directional. They simply say "outside" on them so you'll know how to mount them. The guy who did the tire rotation said he swapped the front right and right rear, and also swapped the left front with the left rear. My question is that if I'm seeing the "outside" label on all 4 tires is there any possible way he could have screwed up the tire rotation? I mean in looking at the tires, unlike directional tires, the tread pattern on the front right tire is the exact opposite of the tread pattern on the front left tire. Does that make sense? I'm losing my fugging mind here.


There are arrows on the bolt heads that attach the strut to the hub knuckle. They should both either be pointing in or pointing out.
I'm gonna have to remove the wheels to check this, huh?

[earlyapex]

There are arrows on the bolt heads that attach the strut to the hub knuckle. They should both either be pointing in or pointing out.
I'm gonna have to remove the wheels to check this, huh?

Or jack it up and climb under with a flashlight.

[nebolic]

The tires I'm using are not directional. They simply say "outside" on them so you'll know how to mount them. The guy who did the tire rotation said he swapped the front right and right rear, and also swapped the left front with the left rear. My question is that if I'm seeing the "outside" label on all 4 tires is there any possible way he could have screwed up the tire rotation? I mean in looking at the tires, unlike directional tires, the tread pattern on the front right tire is the exact opposite of the tread pattern on the front left tire. Does that make sense? I'm losing my fugging mind here.


There are arrows on the bolt heads that attach the strut to the hub knuckle. They should both either be pointing in or pointing out.
I'm gonna have to remove the wheels to check this, huh?

what kind of tires are you using? the name and the brand and size etc... you could possibly just look it up on the internet and see if it's directional.

nebo

[vtluu]

He said they're "Falken Azenis" tires; I'm going to assume he means the RT-215s or RT-615s. They look like they should be directional but aren't; they's simply asymmetrical (they have a specific out side and in side).

[Steiner]

The tires are Falken Azenis RT-615's...

http://www.falkentire.com/615micro.htm

If I'm understanding this correctly, the EXACT same tire is on all 4 wheels. Because of that the tread angle on the front left tire is angled in the opposite direction of the tread angle on the front right tire. Is that right?

[vtluu]

Yup, and supposedly that's fine. The tread blocks are pretty huge anyway. I had the 215s on my Evo, am now running the 615s on my Miata. No hydroplaning so far the past couple weeks; mine are close to full-tread, with only 2 auto-x events on them.

[MitsuMan]

Wanted to see what you guys think about this...

My car tracked perfectly straight until I got a tire rotation last week. Tire pressure was even on all 4 corners so I took it to Jack at Motorsport Techniques for an alignment. He showed me the "before" numbers and I had -.30 of front toe and -.21 of rear toe. He did the alignment but the car still pulls hard to the right when I'm on the freeway. The "after" alignment measurements look good to me. What the hec could be going on?

you have aradial tire pull re rotate you tires back and you'll not havge it any more or replace the fronts or change the tire psi 5 pound higher on the side that it pulles to and that will compensate for the pull

tire pull

[MitsuMan]

Call and take it back. If you have more neg camber on one side but the toe is eaven it shouldn't pull.
Toe dosn't cause pull, un even camber does.

Dude if one tire is pointed out more than the other side (uneaven toe) it will pull that way.


you are sofa king wrong :lol:

[MitsuMan]

Now I'm going to ask again, where are you getting it that toe is the cause of a car pulling to one side?

If toe is off on one side, it will create more friction which will cause that part of the rubber on the tire to "rub" the road more causing it the car to go one side or the other depending on toe in or out no?

no he he he I love this thread its like an automotive I.Q. test please go on somebody

[MitsuMan]

The tires I'm using are not directional. They simply say "outside" on them so you'll know how to mount them. The guy who did the tire rotation said he swapped the front right and right rear, and also swapped the left front with the left rear. My question is that if I'm seeing the "outside" label on all 4 tires is there any possible way he could have screwed up the tire rotation? I mean in looking at the tires, unlike directional tires, the tread pattern on the front right tire is the exact opposite of the tread pattern on the front left tire. Does that make sense? I'm losing my fugging mind here.


There are arrows on the bolt heads that attach the strut to the hub knuckle. They should both either be pointing in or pointing out.
I'm gonna have to remove the wheels to check this, huh?


oh sweet dude that means all you have to doo is cross rotate the front tires left to right

[earlyapex]

no he he he I love this thread its like an automotive I.Q. test please go on somebody

ooooh look finally something MitsuMan knows! :? And that was a question not a statement. Automotive IQ test? Please, don't ever put IQ in one of your sentences.




you have aradial tire pull re rotate you tires back and you'll not havge it any more or replace the fronts or change the tire psi 5 pound higher on the side that it pulles to and that will compensate for the pull

tire pull

Again in comprehensible english?

[Steiner]

you have aradial tire pull re rotate you tires back and you'll not havge it any more or replace the fronts or change the tire psi 5 pound higher on the side that it pulles to and that will compensate for the pull
So do I go with the advice from 8:19pm MitsuMan or...


oh sweet dude that means all you have to doo is cross rotate the front tires left to right

Do I go with the advice from the new and improved 8:32pm MistuMan? Anybody?

[evo_dadi]

Is it the loose nut behind the wheel?

i guess nobody noticed this also :lol:

[MitsuMan]

hey i may not be abl to spel or type but I can fix a car
(gamarically correct as usual)
aradial= a Radial , re rotate=re-rotate


hey apex about how much friction from uneven toe does it take to cause a frictional pull exactly?

so for anyone who cares
pull is cause by the cross camber or cross caster to be over 0.5 degress from left to right. by cross I mean the difference of the two sides
Camber will always pull to the most positive number( the side of the car with the most pos camber)
caster is the opposite it will pull to the side with the least amount of caster
Caster has a greater affect than camber where as it will take more camber to cause a pull than it will caster
for example let say your caster is even. it will take about 1.0-1.5 cross camber to cause a pull
but if your camber is even from R to L you can get a pull by just having anything over +/-0.5 caster
either way 0.0 to 0.5 in either cross camber or cross caster will not cause a pull
normally you want to have a higher caster reading on the right side than the left to try to fight against road crown but not too much -0.6 is a good number camber you want to be as even as you can get it but a little difference is ok as long as you don't get a pull.
toe will never cause a pull unless its rear toe and in that case your talking about rear thrust angle at the most front toe will cause the tire to fight against themselves and you'll get a wandering affect like the car wants to steer itself. but if your toes that far out than your tires will be squeelling and you'll know.
R / Cross / L
-1.0 / 0.2 / -1.2 Camber
3.0 / -1.5 / 4.5 Caster
0.10 / 0.20 / 0.10 Toe

the above car goes Right or left? :?:

[pr0file]

Steiner, do you drive by yourself or with passengers? If you drive by yourself, you should get the alignment with you in the drivers seat. I usually do this with my Celica, for my auto-x alignment. Jack is pretty cool, so I think he'll recheck your alignment and adjust it if needed. :)

[MitsuMan]

you have aradial tire pull re rotate you tires back and you'll not havge it any more or replace the fronts or change the tire psi 5 pound higher on the side that it pulles to and that will compensate for the pull
So do I go with the advice from 8:19pm MitsuMan or...


oh sweet dude that means all you have to doo is cross rotate the front tires left to right

Do I go with the advice from the new and improved 8:32pm MistuMan? Anybody?

dude I'm tellin you just cross the front tires left to right if their not directional and watch the magic happen 8)

[pr0file]

you have aradial tire pull re rotate you tires back and you'll not havge it any more or replace the fronts or change the tire psi 5 pound higher on the side that it pulles to and that will compensate for the pull
So do I go with the advice from 8:19pm MitsuMan or...


oh sweet dude that means all you have to doo is cross rotate the front tires left to right

Do I go with the advice from the new and improved 8:32pm MistuMan? Anybody?

dude I'm tellin you just cross the front tires left to right if their not directional and watch the magic happen 8)
I'll have to agree with MitsuMan :) I had the 215's on my Celica and we cross rotated them with no problems :) If the tread is asymetrical, you can cross rotate; directional: front to back.

[Steiner]

Thanks MitsuMan! I'll do it today.

[earlyapex]

hey apex about how much friction from uneven toe does it take to cause a frictional pull exactly?

You can't read either. For the third time, it was a question.

[KitW]

Remember that FRONT toe self centers but REAR toe does not. having your REAR toe off can indeed cause a pull or uneven wear. If your alignment has been honked for awhile, you can get a radial pull as well, but usually they come that way from the factory.

I'd try putting your tires back the way they were and see if the pull goes away. Mitsuman's recommendation of overinflating a tire can cause pretty badly imbalanced handling, and it's not something I would do.

I hate alignment issues. I actually remember going to camber/caster plates on my M3 just to correct a stupid pull (Which it did).

[MitsuMan]

yea don't play with the tire press if you don't have to before you go there you should have the trust angle(rear toe) adjusted to counter the pull right or left. I just said that as a quick fix you can do with out taking the tires off, you don't really notice 5 psi unless your trackin like crazy

[Steiner]

Big props to MitsuMan. Switching the front tires did the trick. In fact I took the car to America's tire yesterday and asked them to do exactly that. I almost forgot that I have free tire rotations from them since that's where I originally bought the tires. The clown behind the counter insisted that swapping the front right and rear right would fix the pull though. I told him over and over again what MitsuMan told me but he was so damn cocky I just said fine. Sure enough the car pulled the exact same as before. I put the front of the car on jackstands tonight and did it myself. Problem solved.

[MitsuMan]

sseeeeeee this is what I do every day man I'm glad I could help 8)